A very readable report on the extremely high level of violence in South Africa, sounds absolutely terrible and a hell of a place to live.

>>The scene inside the house was chaos. A door broken with an axe. Blood everywhere.
And in the bedroom, his parents lying together, their hands tied, their throats slit, the cord of an iron tied around his mother’s neck.
Her body was still warm.<<

>>Each cross represents someone murdered in the course of a farm attack since 1994. The private landowner who owns the site has added 75 crosses in the past 12 months.<<

>>It’s certainly true that farm murders are dwarfed by the sheer scale of violent crime in South Africa.<<

>>Home to around 200,000 people, Diepsloot is a maze of alleyways and corrugated iron shacks. Water is scarce, sewers non-existent; unemployment, poverty and crime are all-pervasive.<<

>>He talks of two- and three-year-old children raped and murdered; women attacked when they leave their shacks at night to go to the few portaloos in a township without streetlights.<<

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-31/south-african-farm-murders/10013298

PermeateFree said:

A very readable report on the extremely high level of violence in South Africa, sounds absolutely terrible and a hell of a place to live.

>>The scene inside the house was chaos. A door broken with an axe. Blood everywhere.
And in the bedroom, his parents lying together, their hands tied, their throats slit, the cord of an iron tied around his mother’s neck.
Her body was still warm.<<

>>Each cross represents someone murdered in the course of a farm attack since 1994. The private landowner who owns the site has added 75 crosses in the past 12 months.<<

>>It’s certainly true that farm murders are dwarfed by the sheer scale of violent crime in South Africa.<<

>>Home to around 200,000 people, Diepsloot is a maze of alleyways and corrugated iron shacks. Water is scarce, sewers non-existent; unemployment, poverty and crime are all-pervasive.<<

>>He talks of two- and three-year-old children raped and murdered; women attacked when they leave their shacks at night to go to the few portaloos in a township without streetlights.<<

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-31/south-african-farm-murders/10013298

One of my neighbours children decided to be a new age type Christian missionary in Zimbabwe. Probably before he was old enough to appreciate the ramifications of his rashness. Anyway he met and married his wife and had children there. Next thing he was back here. I asked and in his maturity he responded, “i couldn’t contemplate the safety of our family there. I had this safety net to caome back to Australia and I took that option”. This conversation was a over a decade ago and within the same conversation the local Mullah pulled his car over and came to chat with us. We talked not about war or politics or religion but only about cricket.

roughbarked said:

PermeateFree said:

A very readable report on the extremely high level of violence in South Africa, sounds absolutely terrible and a hell of a place to live.

>>The scene inside the house was chaos. A door broken with an axe. Blood everywhere.
And in the bedroom, his parents lying together, their hands tied, their throats slit, the cord of an iron tied around his mother’s neck.
Her body was still warm.<<

>>Each cross represents someone murdered in the course of a farm attack since 1994. The private landowner who owns the site has added 75 crosses in the past 12 months.<<

>>It’s certainly true that farm murders are dwarfed by the sheer scale of violent crime in South Africa.<<

>>Home to around 200,000 people, Diepsloot is a maze of alleyways and corrugated iron shacks. Water is scarce, sewers non-existent; unemployment, poverty and crime are all-pervasive.<<

>>He talks of two- and three-year-old children raped and murdered; women attacked when they leave their shacks at night to go to the few portaloos in a township without streetlights.<<

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-31/south-african-farm-murders/10013298

One of my neighbours children decided to be a new age type Christian missionary in Zimbabwe. Probably before he was old enough to appreciate the ramifications of his rashness. Anyway he met and married his wife and had children there. Next thing he was back here. I asked and in his maturity he responded, “i couldn’t contemplate the safety of our family there. I had this safety net to caome back to Australia and I took that option”. This conversation was a over a decade ago and within the same conversation the local Mullah pulled his car over and came to chat with us. We talked not about war or politics or religion but only about cricket.

No, I am happy to leave Africa to the Africans. Never once wanted to go there.

PermeateFree said:

roughbarked said:

PermeateFree said:

A very readable report on the extremely high level of violence in South Africa, sounds absolutely terrible and a hell of a place to live.

>>The scene inside the house was chaos. A door broken with an axe. Blood everywhere.
And in the bedroom, his parents lying together, their hands tied, their throats slit, the cord of an iron tied around his mother’s neck.
Her body was still warm.<<

>>Each cross represents someone murdered in the course of a farm attack since 1994. The private landowner who owns the site has added 75 crosses in the past 12 months.<<

>>It’s certainly true that farm murders are dwarfed by the sheer scale of violent crime in South Africa.<<

>>Home to around 200,000 people, Diepsloot is a maze of alleyways and corrugated iron shacks. Water is scarce, sewers non-existent; unemployment, poverty and crime are all-pervasive.<<

>>He talks of two- and three-year-old children raped and murdered; women attacked when they leave their shacks at night to go to the few portaloos in a township without streetlights.<<

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-31/south-african-farm-murders/10013298

One of my neighbours children decided to be a new age type Christian missionary in Zimbabwe. Probably before he was old enough to appreciate the ramifications of his rashness. Anyway he met and married his wife and had children there. Next thing he was back here. I asked and in his maturity he responded, “i couldn’t contemplate the safety of our family there. I had this safety net to caome back to Australia and I took that option”. This conversation was a over a decade ago and within the same conversation the local Mullah pulled his car over and came to chat with us. We talked not about war or politics or religion but only about cricket.

No, I am happy to leave Africa to the Africans. Never once wanted to go there.

Why indeed would you? You are standing in Australia.

roughbarked said:

PermeateFree said:

roughbarked said:

One of my neighbours children decided to be a new age type Christian missionary in Zimbabwe. Probably before he was old enough to appreciate the ramifications of his rashness. Anyway he met and married his wife and had children there. Next thing he was back here. I asked and in his maturity he responded, “i couldn’t contemplate the safety of our family there. I had this safety net to caome back to Australia and I took that option”. This conversation was a over a decade ago and within the same conversation the local Mullah pulled his car over and came to chat with us. We talked not about war or politics or religion but only about cricket.

No, I am happy to leave Africa to the Africans. Never once wanted to go there.

Why indeed would you? You are standing in Australia.

This same man now wholsales toilet paper and other cleaning products to local businesses.
Where did I put my ironing board?

PermeateFree said:

A very readable report on the extremely high level of violence in South Africa, sounds absolutely terrible and a hell of a place to live.

>>The scene inside the house was chaos. A door broken with an axe. Blood everywhere.
And in the bedroom, his parents lying together, their hands tied, their throats slit, the cord of an iron tied around his mother’s neck.
Her body was still warm.<<

>>Each cross represents someone murdered in the course of a farm attack since 1994. The private landowner who owns the site has added 75 crosses in the past 12 months.<<

>>It’s certainly true that farm murders are dwarfed by the sheer scale of violent crime in South Africa.<<

>>Home to around 200,000 people, Diepsloot is a maze of alleyways and corrugated iron shacks. Water is scarce, sewers non-existent; unemployment, poverty and crime are all-pervasive.<<

>>He talks of two- and three-year-old children raped and murdered; women attacked when they leave their shacks at night to go to the few portaloos in a township without streetlights.<<

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-31/south-african-farm-murders/10013298

This article is meant to be racist, right?

South Africa is like the Middle East.

SA has gold and diamonds. The Middle East has oil.

Were it not for those things, the rest of the world wouldn’t give a damn about them, and would leave them to get on with the business of slaughtering each other in the name of religion and tribalism. The cultures that produce that kind of violence do nothing to endear themselves to the rest of the world.

captain_spalding said:

South Africa is like the Middle East.

SA has gold and diamonds. The Middle East has oil.

Were it not for those things, the rest of the world wouldn’t give a damn about them, and would leave them to get on with the business of slaughtering each other in the name of religion and tribalism. The cultures that produce that kind of violence do nothing to endear themselves to the rest of the world.

If it were that simple what is the explanation for the European dominated first and second world wars?

Witty Rejoinder said:

captain_spalding said:

South Africa is like the Middle East.

SA has gold and diamonds. The Middle East has oil.

Were it not for those things, the rest of the world wouldn’t give a damn about them, and would leave them to get on with the business of slaughtering each other in the name of religion and tribalism. The cultures that produce that kind of violence do nothing to endear themselves to the rest of the world.

If it were that simple what is the explanation for the European dominated first and second world wars?

control of power.

Witty Rejoinder said:

captain_spalding said:

South Africa is like the Middle East.

SA has gold and diamonds. The Middle East has oil.

Were it not for those things, the rest of the world wouldn’t give a damn about them, and would leave them to get on with the business of slaughtering each other in the name of religion and tribalism. The cultures that produce that kind of violence do nothing to endear themselves to the rest of the world.

If it were that simple what is the explanation for the European dominated first and second world wars?

The desire to acquire, or to protect, ‘empires’ of lands which possess natural resources, and about which you’d otherwise not give a toss.

I imagine if Africa/South Africa and the Middle East were united (not together but as united Africa and united Middle East) they’d be threat even if that was just economically so centuries of interference by various other powers has resulted in them being the way they are. Installing puppet leaders “friendly” to various nations who allow various resource acquisition doesn’t help either.

captain_spalding said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

captain_spalding said:

South Africa is like the Middle East.

SA has gold and diamonds. The Middle East has oil.

Were it not for those things, the rest of the world wouldn’t give a damn about them, and would leave them to get on with the business of slaughtering each other in the name of religion and tribalism. The cultures that produce that kind of violence do nothing to endear themselves to the rest of the world.

If it were that simple what is the explanation for the European dominated first and second world wars?

The desire to acquire, or to protect, ‘empires’ of lands which possess natural resources, and about which you’d otherwise not give a toss.

It’s interesting to note that they are the cradle of civilisation and what was once a number of ancient civilisations that valued knowledge and science and they seem to have regressed. It does make you wonder that in many circumstances the older a civilisation the more likely it is to stagnate as they can’t get rid of customs and traditions that are no longer relevant and actually repress progression.

Cymek said:

I imagine if Africa/South Africa and the Middle East were united (not together but as united Africa and united Middle East) they’d be threat even if that was just economically so centuries of interference by various other powers has resulted in them being the way they are. Installing puppet leaders “friendly” to various nations who allow various resource acquisition doesn’t help either.

rofl. with or without international influence, those areas would not be united. ever. If anything, Western/colonisation/white people interference gave them a common ground…

poikilotherm said:

Cymek said:

I imagine if Africa/South Africa and the Middle East were united (not together but as united Africa and united Middle East) they’d be threat even if that was just economically so centuries of interference by various other powers has resulted in them being the way they are. Installing puppet leaders “friendly” to various nations who allow various resource acquisition doesn’t help either.

rofl. with or without international influence, those areas would not be united. ever. If anything, Western/colonisation/white people interference gave them a common ground…

Perhaps never know though will we.
Extremist god beliefs and tribalism doesn’t help

captain_spalding said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

captain_spalding said:

South Africa is like the Middle East.

SA has gold and diamonds. The Middle East has oil.

Were it not for those things, the rest of the world wouldn’t give a damn about them, and would leave them to get on with the business of slaughtering each other in the name of religion and tribalism. The cultures that produce that kind of violence do nothing to endear themselves to the rest of the world.

If it were that simple what is the explanation for the European dominated first and second world wars?

The desire to acquire, or to protect, ‘empires’ of lands which possess natural resources, and about which you’d otherwise not give a toss.

So Europe is just another culture that produced that kind of violence and did nothing to endear themselves to the rest of the world?

Witty Rejoinder said:

captain_spalding said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

If it were that simple what is the explanation for the European dominated first and second world wars?

The desire to acquire, or to protect, ‘empires’ of lands which possess natural resources, and about which you’d otherwise not give a toss.

So Europe is just another culture that produced that kind of violence and did nothing to endear themselves to the rest of the world?

Two world wars were started by Europeans, resulting in what 100 million deaths at least

poikilotherm said:

Cymek said:

I imagine if Africa/South Africa and the Middle East were united (not together but as united Africa and united Middle East) they’d be threat even if that was just economically so centuries of interference by various other powers has resulted in them being the way they are. Installing puppet leaders “friendly” to various nations who allow various resource acquisition doesn’t help either.

rofl. with or without international influence, those areas would not be united. ever. If anything, Western/colonisation/white people interference gave them a common ground…

It’s been around 100 years since the fall of the last Caliphate, longer if we count the years whereby the Ottoman Empire was propped up by European powers. Who knows whether the Islamic world will unite again but if history is any guide it’s a definite possibility.

Witty Rejoinder said:

poikilotherm said:

Cymek said:

I imagine if Africa/South Africa and the Middle East were united (not together but as united Africa and united Middle East) they’d be threat even if that was just economically so centuries of interference by various other powers has resulted in them being the way they are. Installing puppet leaders “friendly” to various nations who allow various resource acquisition doesn’t help either.

rofl. with or without international influence, those areas would not be united. ever. If anything, Western/colonisation/white people interference gave them a common ground…

It’s been around 100 years since the fall of the last Caliphate, longer if we count the years whereby the Ottoman Empire was propped up by European powers. Who knows whether the Islamic world will unite again but if history is any guide it’s a definite possibility.

Some people seem itching for a proper modern war between Muslims and Christians

Cymek said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

poikilotherm said:

rofl. with or without international influence, those areas would not be united. ever. If anything, Western/colonisation/white people interference gave them a common ground…

It’s been around 100 years since the fall of the last Caliphate, longer if we count the years whereby the Ottoman Empire was propped up by European powers. Who knows whether the Islamic world will unite again but if history is any guide it’s a definite possibility.

Some people seem itching for a proper modern war between Muslims and Christians

‘So Europe is just another culture that produced that kind of violence and did nothing to endear themselves to the rest of the world?’
Yes, that’s right.

‘Two world wars were started by Europeans, resulting in what 100 million deaths at least’
That’s a fact.

Doesn’t change the fact that African nations and the Middle East are riven by violence which has nothing other than religion and tribalism at its root, and which will continue as long as there’s one of Party A alive to kill one of Party B.

Also doesn’t change the fact that, were it nor for their resources, the rest of the world couldn’t care less about it.

(‘oops’ about my previous post)

captain_spalding said:

Doesn’t change the fact that African nations and the Middle East are riven by violence which has nothing other than religion and tribalism at its root, and which will continue as long as there’s one of Party A alive to kill one of Party B.

You’ve not provided any evidence that Europeans are any less violent compared to Africans or Middle Eastern peoples. Some of the practices considered barbaric in the Muslim world like public executions were common-place in Europe only a century ago.

captain_spalding said:

‘So Europe is just another culture that produced that kind of violence and did nothing to endear themselves to the rest of the world?’
Yes, that’s right.

‘Two world wars were started by Europeans, resulting in what 100 million deaths at least’
That’s a fact.

Doesn’t change the fact that African nations and the Middle East are riven by violence which has nothing other than religion and tribalism at its root, and which will continue as long as there’s one of Party A alive to kill one of Party B.

Also doesn’t change the fact that, were it nor for their resources, the rest of the world couldn’t care less about it.

(‘oops’ about my previous post)

It’s true isn’t it, not sure if outsiders can fix other nations problems of which Africa has many, would be seen as interference and pushing someone else ideals even if the intention were more altruistic than this. Some that needs to be sorted out by themselves and unlikely to happen when most people are quite poor financially and education wise and superstitious people are in charge

Witty Rejoinder said:

captain_spalding said:

Doesn’t change the fact that African nations and the Middle East are riven by violence which has nothing other than religion and tribalism at its root, and which will continue as long as there’s one of Party A alive to kill one of Party B.

You’ve not provided any evidence that Europeans are any less violent compared to Africans or Middle Eastern peoples. Some of the practices considered barbaric in the Muslim world like public executions were common-place in Europe only a century ago.

I don’t think they are less violent, lots of hatreds between nations still I imagine that date back centuries in origination

Witty Rejoinder said:

captain_spalding said:

Doesn’t change the fact that African nations and the Middle East are riven by violence which has nothing other than religion and tribalism at its root, and which will continue as long as there’s one of Party A alive to kill one of Party B.

You’ve not provided any evidence that Europeans are any less violent compared to Africans or Middle Eastern peoples. Some of the practices considered barbaric in the Muslim world like public executions were common-place in Europe only a century ago.

Oh, come on, Witty. You only need to examine the Balkans to see what peaceful co-existence looks like in Europe. Pure bliss.

sibeen said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

captain_spalding said:

Doesn’t change the fact that African nations and the Middle East are riven by violence which has nothing other than religion and tribalism at its root, and which will continue as long as there’s one of Party A alive to kill one of Party B.

You’ve not provided any evidence that Europeans are any less violent compared to Africans or Middle Eastern peoples. Some of the practices considered barbaric in the Muslim world like public executions were common-place in Europe only a century ago.

Oh, come on, Witty. You only need to examine the Balkans to see what peaceful co-existence looks like in Europe. Pure bliss.

I was just about to say Northern Ireland, but I guess your example trumps that.

sibeen said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

captain_spalding said:

Doesn’t change the fact that African nations and the Middle East are riven by violence which has nothing other than religion and tribalism at its root, and which will continue as long as there’s one of Party A alive to kill one of Party B.

You’ve not provided any evidence that Europeans are any less violent compared to Africans or Middle Eastern peoples. Some of the practices considered barbaric in the Muslim world like public executions were common-place in Europe only a century ago.

Oh, come on, Witty. You only need to examine the Balkans to see what peaceful co-existence looks like in Europe. Pure bliss.

I don’t know much about about the modern Bosnian conflict, I’ll have to get a book about it one day. I do know the place has always been a shitfight, Christian west running up against eastern Islam and probably the fall of the Ottoman Empire in there as well. Kicked off the western part of world Smackdown the first as well.

AwesomeO said:

sibeen said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

You’ve not provided any evidence that Europeans are any less violent compared to Africans or Middle Eastern peoples. Some of the practices considered barbaric in the Muslim world like public executions were common-place in Europe only a century ago.

Oh, come on, Witty. You only need to examine the Balkans to see what peaceful co-existence looks like in Europe. Pure bliss.

I don’t know much about about the modern Bosnian conflict, I’ll have to get a book about it one day. I do know the place has always been a shitfight, Christian west running up against eastern Islam and probably the fall of the Ottoman Empire in there as well. Kicked off the western part of world Smackdown the first as well.

.. and both major branches of Christianity too, Catholic and Orthodox.

party_pants said:

AwesomeO said:

sibeen said:

Oh, come on, Witty. You only need to examine the Balkans to see what peaceful co-existence looks like in Europe. Pure bliss.

I don’t know much about about the modern Bosnian conflict, I’ll have to get a book about it one day. I do know the place has always been a shitfight, Christian west running up against eastern Islam and probably the fall of the Ottoman Empire in there as well. Kicked off the western part of world Smackdown the first as well.

.. and both major branches of Christianity too, Catholic and Orthodox.

Absurd like STOS fans and STNG fans starting a war and with Islam vs Christians like Star Wars fans vs Star Trek fans

Witty Rejoinder said:

captain_spalding said:

Doesn’t change the fact that African nations and the Middle East are riven by violence which has nothing other than religion and tribalism at its root, and which will continue as long as there’s one of Party A alive to kill one of Party B.

You’ve not provided any evidence that Europeans are any less violent compared to Africans or Middle Eastern peoples.

Don’t have to. Not arguing about that. No argument about this people being more/less violent than that people alters ‘ the fact that African nations and the Middle East are riven by violence which has nothing other than religion and tribalism at its root, and which will continue as long as there’s one of Party A alive to kill one of Party B.’.

You’re trying to get me into a guilt situation. Not applicable.

captain_spalding said:

Doesn’t change the fact that African nations and the Middle East are riven by violence which has nothing other than religion and tribalism at its root…

I wonder how things would be today if, following WWI, the Entente Powers had honored the promises they made to the Arabs regarding the Damascus Protocol. The formation of an independent “United States of Arabia” might have worked wonders reducing the tribalism aspect of conflicts in the Middle East, giving the disparate groups of the time a shared national identity in what would likely have become one of the most economically and politically important nations in the modern world, maybe even a “super-power”.

esselte said:

captain_spalding said:

Doesn’t change the fact that African nations and the Middle East are riven by violence which has nothing other than religion and tribalism at its root…

I wonder how things would be today if, following WWI, the Entente Powers had honored the promises they made to the Arabs regarding the Damascus Protocol. The formation of an independent “United States of Arabia” might have worked wonders reducing the tribalism aspect of conflicts in the Middle East, giving the disparate groups of the time a shared national identity in what would likely have become one of the most economically and politically important nations in the modern world, maybe even a “super-power”.

But that region is not just Arab, there are also Persians and Kurds and none of them play well together. Probably the bigger influence is carving up the region post Ottoman with views to western interests, ie French and British with access to the Suez and keeping Russia at arms length and where those borders cut though settled ethnic regions.

AwesomeO said:

esselte said:

captain_spalding said:

Doesn’t change the fact that African nations and the Middle East are riven by violence which has nothing other than religion and tribalism at its root…

I wonder how things would be today if, following WWI, the Entente Powers had honored the promises they made to the Arabs regarding the Damascus Protocol. The formation of an independent “United States of Arabia” might have worked wonders reducing the tribalism aspect of conflicts in the Middle East, giving the disparate groups of the time a shared national identity in what would likely have become one of the most economically and politically important nations in the modern world, maybe even a “super-power”.

But that region is not just Arab, there are also Persians and Kurds and none of them play well together. Probably the bigger influence is carving up the region post Ottoman with views to western interests, ie French and British with access to the Suez and keeping Russia at arms length and where those borders cut though settled ethnic regions.

Which was what I mentioned vested interests to keep the Middle East fragmented which wouldn’t be too hard as most hate each other anyway

Cymek said:

AwesomeO said:

esselte said:

I wonder how things would be today if, following WWI, the Entente Powers had honored the promises they made to the Arabs regarding the Damascus Protocol. The formation of an independent “United States of Arabia” might have worked wonders reducing the tribalism aspect of conflicts in the Middle East, giving the disparate groups of the time a shared national identity in what would likely have become one of the most economically and politically important nations in the modern world, maybe even a “super-power”.

But that region is not just Arab, there are also Persians and Kurds and none of them play well together. Probably the bigger influence is carving up the region post Ottoman with views to western interests, ie French and British with access to the Suez and keeping Russia at arms length and where those borders cut though settled ethnic regions.

Which was what I mentioned vested interests to keep the Middle East fragmented which wouldn’t be too hard as most hate each other anyway

A lot of the oil in the middle east was not discovered or developed commercially until after WW2.

esselte said:

captain_spalding said:

Doesn’t change the fact that African nations and the Middle East are riven by violence which has nothing other than religion and tribalism at its root…

I wonder how things would be today if, ……………………..

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

party_pants said:

Cymek said:

AwesomeO said:

But that region is not just Arab, there are also Persians and Kurds and none of them play well together. Probably the bigger influence is carving up the region post Ottoman with views to western interests, ie French and British with access to the Suez and keeping Russia at arms length and where those borders cut though settled ethnic regions.

Which was what I mentioned vested interests to keep the Middle East fragmented which wouldn’t be too hard as most hate each other anyway

A lot of the oil in the middle east was not discovered or developed commercially until after WW2.

The rise of the house of Saud was just because they were the Bedouin tribe who agreed to act as guides and protection for BP prospectors. At that time the house of Saud was fully nomadic Bedouin with the treasury being a single strongbox on a camel.

AwesomeO said:

party_pants said:

Cymek said:

Which was what I mentioned vested interests to keep the Middle East fragmented which wouldn’t be too hard as most hate each other anyway

A lot of the oil in the middle east was not discovered or developed commercially until after WW2.

The rise of the house of Saud was just because they were the Bedouin tribe who agreed to act as guides and protection for BP prospectors. At that time the house of Saud was fully nomadic Bedouin with the treasury being a single strongbox on a camel.

Which reminds me, a United States of Arabia would be problematic because many of the tribes were in conflict with each other as well, blood funds gong back for generations and conflicts over resources, access to water and trading routes.

party_pants said:

Cymek said:

AwesomeO said:

But that region is not just Arab, there are also Persians and Kurds and none of them play well together. Probably the bigger influence is carving up the region post Ottoman with views to western interests, ie French and British with access to the Suez and keeping Russia at arms length and where those borders cut though settled ethnic regions.

Which was what I mentioned vested interests to keep the Middle East fragmented which wouldn’t be too hard as most hate each other anyway

A lot of the oil in the middle east was not discovered or developed commercially until after WW2.

Sorry, the oil fields in Persia (modern day Iran) were opened much earlier than that, around the early 1900s.

AwesomeO said:

party_pants said:

Cymek said:

Which was what I mentioned vested interests to keep the Middle East fragmented which wouldn’t be too hard as most hate each other anyway

A lot of the oil in the middle east was not discovered or developed commercially until after WW2.

The rise of the house of Saud was just because they were the Bedouin tribe who agreed to act as guides and protection for BP prospectors. At that time the house of Saud was fully nomadic Bedouin with the treasury being a single strongbox on a camel.

You could research the men of BP in those days, chase down clippings, chase down letters and diaries and write a spiffing book about the times and characters both Arab and British.
Many stories crying out to be told.

Peak Warming Man said:

AwesomeO said:

party_pants said:

A lot of the oil in the middle east was not discovered or developed commercially until after WW2.

The rise of the house of Saud was just because they were the Bedouin tribe who agreed to act as guides and protection for BP prospectors. At that time the house of Saud was fully nomadic Bedouin with the treasury being a single strongbox on a camel.

You could research the men of BP in those days, chase down clippings, chase down letters and diaries and write a spiffing book about the times and characters both Arab and British.
Many stories crying out to be told.

You could, one of them was Kim Philbys dad and he had gone full native or orientalist as they were known then. To communicate with London they had to go to Italy which was the closest telecommunication link. Wild and woolly days.

AwesomeO said:

Probably the bigger influence is carving up the region post Ottoman with views to western interests, ie French and British with access to the Suez and keeping Russia at arms length and where those borders cut though settled ethnic regions.

This would not have happened if the British had honored their agreements. Which is why I started my post wondering what today’s situation would be like had they honored those agreements.

Regarding the different groups living in the area not getting on well with each other; this is what I was saying. Maybe a United States of Arabia could have reduced those divisions by giving the separate groups a common identity they could all subscribe to. Couple that with a strong economy (the USArabia has lots of oil) which means high standards of living which would further reduce tensions between different ethnic communities in the area and lead to less religious dogmatism over all.

mollwollfumble said:

PermeateFree said:

A very readable report on the extremely high level of violence in South Africa, sounds absolutely terrible and a hell of a place to live.

>>The scene inside the house was chaos. A door broken with an axe. Blood everywhere.
And in the bedroom, his parents lying together, their hands tied, their throats slit, the cord of an iron tied around his mother’s neck.
Her body was still warm.<<

>>Each cross represents someone murdered in the course of a farm attack since 1994. The private landowner who owns the site has added 75 crosses in the past 12 months.<<

>>It’s certainly true that farm murders are dwarfed by the sheer scale of violent crime in South Africa.<<

>>Home to around 200,000 people, Diepsloot is a maze of alleyways and corrugated iron shacks. Water is scarce, sewers non-existent; unemployment, poverty and crime are all-pervasive.<<

>>He talks of two- and three-year-old children raped and murdered; women attacked when they leave their shacks at night to go to the few portaloos in a township without streetlights.<<

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-31/south-african-farm-murders/10013298

This article is meant to be racist, right?

From you that is very funny. :)))

Peak Warming Man said:

esselte said:

captain_spalding said:

Doesn’t change the fact that African nations and the Middle East are riven by violence which has nothing other than religion and tribalism at its root…

I wonder how things would be today if, ……………………..

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

Dumb bugger didn’t know cannibals lived up that track.

esselte said:

captain_spalding said:

Doesn’t change the fact that African nations and the Middle East are riven by violence which has nothing other than religion and tribalism at its root…

I wonder how things would be today if, following WWI, the Entente Powers had honored the promises they made to the Arabs regarding the Damascus Protocol. The formation of an independent “United States of Arabia” might have worked wonders reducing the tribalism aspect of conflicts in the Middle East, giving the disparate groups of the time a shared national identity in what would likely have become one of the most economically and politically important nations in the modern world, maybe even a “super-power”.

Syria and Egypt toyed with the idea with their United Arab Republic. Only lasted a decade or so.

Witty Rejoinder said:

esselte said:

captain_spalding said:

Doesn’t change the fact that African nations and the Middle East are riven by violence which has nothing other than religion and tribalism at its root…

I wonder how things would be today if, following WWI, the Entente Powers had honored the promises they made to the Arabs regarding the Damascus Protocol. The formation of an independent “United States of Arabia” might have worked wonders reducing the tribalism aspect of conflicts in the Middle East, giving the disparate groups of the time a shared national identity in what would likely have become one of the most economically and politically important nations in the modern world, maybe even a “super-power”.

Syria and Egypt toyed with the idea with their United Arab Republic. Only lasted a decade or so.

It was also the founding principle of the Ba’ath party in Iraq, before Saddam took over and turned it into his own totalitarian thing.

party_pants said:

party_pants said:

Cymek said:

Which was what I mentioned vested interests to keep the Middle East fragmented which wouldn’t be too hard as most hate each other anyway

A lot of the oil in the middle east was not discovered or developed commercially until after WW2.

Sorry, the oil fields in Persia (modern day Iran) were opened much earlier than that, around the early 1900s.

and the British gassed Iraqis and Kurds almost 200 years before Saddam Hussein did.

roughbarked said:

party_pants said:

party_pants said:

A lot of the oil in the middle east was not discovered or developed commercially until after WW2.

Sorry, the oil fields in Persia (modern day Iran) were opened much earlier than that, around the early 1900s.

and the British gassed Iraqis and Kurds almost 200 years before Saddam Hussein did.

1915 – Germany – near Ypres in WW1.

party_pants said:

roughbarked said:

party_pants said:

Sorry, the oil fields in Persia (modern day Iran) were opened much earlier than that, around the early 1900s.

and the British gassed Iraqis and Kurds almost 200 years before Saddam Hussein did.

1915 – Germany – near Ypres in WW1.

Yeah sorry, meant 100 years. But it was in Iraq too.

roughbarked said:

party_pants said:

party_pants said:

A lot of the oil in the middle east was not discovered or developed commercially until after WW2.

Sorry, the oil fields in Persia (modern day Iran) were opened much earlier than that, around the early 1900s.

and the British gassed Iraqis and Kurds almost 200 years before Saddam Hussein did.

Ref?

Witty Rejoinder said:

roughbarked said:

party_pants said:

Sorry, the oil fields in Persia (modern day Iran) were opened much earlier than that, around the early 1900s.

and the British gassed Iraqis and Kurds almost 200 years before Saddam Hussein did.

Ref?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/apr/19/iraq.arts

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_British_use_of_chemical_weapons_in_Mesopotamia_in_1920

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_chemical_attack

Witty Rejoinder said:

roughbarked said:

party_pants said:

Sorry, the oil fields in Persia (modern day Iran) were opened much earlier than that, around the early 1900s.

and the British gassed Iraqis and Kurds almost 200 years before Saddam Hussein did.

Ref?

I meant 100 years. 1915 and 1916.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRWCK9zGynA

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/22/israel-evacuates-800-white-helmets-in-face-of-syria-advance

no doubt britain will be suffering gas attacks in the near future as jihadists trained armed and supported by western governments and their intelligence services come home to roost

i was told by father that one of my relatives went out with rhodes

the last time anyone ever saw was him marching out into the jungle with some natives carrying his gear.

wookiemeister said:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/22/israel-evacuates-800-white-helmets-in-face-of-syria-advance

no doubt britain will be suffering gas attacks in the near future as jihadists trained armed and supported by western governments and their intelligence services come home to roost

Now who is blathering?