Date: 1/08/2018 13:51:16
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1258629
Subject: NASA study dashes dreams of terraforming Mars

>>Could we one day terraform Mars to give it an atmosphere, new seas, and a generally habitable environment where people could settle without special protection? According to a new NASA study, don’t hold your breath. By the most generous estimate, there isn’t enough material on the Red Planet to even begin to provide it with a minimal atmosphere – much less make it suitable for colonization.<<

>>An alternative to this is terraforming. It’s an idea that’s been around for over a century and the basic concept is to alter the environment on Mars to make it more like Earth’s. Though this might seem a bit daunting, we have evidence that billions of years ago ancient Mars had a large ocean, rivers, lakes, and rainfall. If it could be done once, why not again?<<

https://newatlas.com/terraforming-mars-nasa-study/55686

Find out why not, it is an interesting read.

Reply Quote

Date: 1/08/2018 13:56:29
From: Cymek
ID: 1258630
Subject: re: NASA study dashes dreams of terraforming Mars

Have you read these books

Mars trilogy

Reply Quote

Date: 1/08/2018 14:16:32
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1258635
Subject: re: NASA study dashes dreams of terraforming Mars

Cymek said:


Have you read these books

Mars trilogy

More to the point, has NASA read them?

Anyway do tell.

Reply Quote

Date: 1/08/2018 14:20:25
From: Cymek
ID: 1258640
Subject: re: NASA study dashes dreams of terraforming Mars

PermeateFree said:


Cymek said:

Have you read these books

Mars trilogy

More to the point, has NASA read them?

Anyway do tell.

They are fiction but very detailed from a scientific viewpoint on how to terraform Mars with technology only a hundred or so years in advance of our own. They have people who support terraforming and others who want Mars left as is, as it already has a natural beauty just not like our own.

Reply Quote

Date: 1/08/2018 14:23:49
From: Cymek
ID: 1258643
Subject: re: NASA study dashes dreams of terraforming Mars

It would be interesting to see if Martian regolith would grow plants if we just added fertiliser/manure/water and an atmosphere.
It could be done as a sample return mission or set something up on the planet, have a dome on the Martian surface and just add in those ingredients

Reply Quote

Date: 1/08/2018 14:26:23
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1258645
Subject: re: NASA study dashes dreams of terraforming Mars

Cymek said:


PermeateFree said:

Cymek said:

Have you read these books

Mars trilogy

More to the point, has NASA read them?

Anyway do tell.

They are fiction but very detailed from a scientific viewpoint on how to terraform Mars with technology only a hundred or so years in advance of our own. They have people who support terraforming and others who want Mars left as is, as it already has a natural beauty just not like our own.

Well I think NASA has now debunked that.

Reply Quote

Date: 1/08/2018 14:26:44
From: Peak Warming Man
ID: 1258646
Subject: re: NASA study dashes dreams of terraforming Mars

Cymek said:


It would be interesting to see if Martian regolith would grow plants if we just added fertiliser/manure/water and an atmosphere.
It could be done as a sample return mission or set something up on the planet, have a dome on the Martian surface and just add in those ingredients

No point terra forming Mars, it’s going to be toast just like earth when Sol goes super nova soon.

Reply Quote

Date: 1/08/2018 14:28:08
From: Cymek
ID: 1258648
Subject: re: NASA study dashes dreams of terraforming Mars

PermeateFree said:


Cymek said:

PermeateFree said:

More to the point, has NASA read them?

Anyway do tell.

They are fiction but very detailed from a scientific viewpoint on how to terraform Mars with technology only a hundred or so years in advance of our own. They have people who support terraforming and others who want Mars left as is, as it already has a natural beauty just not like our own.

Well I think NASA has now debunked that.

Seems like it at least with current technology, might be easier to live underground

Reply Quote

Date: 1/08/2018 15:07:29
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1258660
Subject: re: NASA study dashes dreams of terraforming Mars

> According to a new NASA study, don’t hold your breath. By the most generous estimate, there isn’t enough material on the Red Planet to even begin to provide it with a minimal atmosphere – much less make it suitable for colonization.

Let’s do a quick calculation. The surface of Mars is largely basalt. Let’s say 50% silica. There’s a lot of oxygen in silica, two atoms of oxygen to every atom of silicon, and a lot of oxygen in the rest of the basalt as well. Let’s say Mars’s surface is 50% oxygen by weight, that won’t be far out. The mass of Earth’s atmosphere is 5*10^18 kg, of which 23% is oxygen. The surface area of Mars is 1.45*10^14 m^2. To get a complete Earth’s mass of atmosphere on Mars requires (5/1.45) = 34 tons of oxygen per square metre. At a typical rock density of 3 tons per cubic metre, that’s a depth of (0.23*34)/(0.5*3) = 5 metres deep. That’s quite deep, approaching impossible. But a minimal atmosphere needs much less oxygen than this, and many bacteria get along quite happily with no atmosphere at all.

Atmosphere thickness is not the problem.

For water, import hydrogen, which is very light weight.

Given hydrogen and heat, cyanobacteria (blue green algae) will start turning Mars’s CO2 atmosphere into an oxygen atmosphere.

> turning the ice caps into water vapor would only raise the pressure to 1.2 percent Earth normal. If the surface dust of the planet was all dug up by strip mining and heated to release carbon dioxide, that would provide only another four percent pressure.

It would produce oxygen not carbon dioxide, fool.

So let’s say 5.2% of Earth’s pressure. If that was pure oxygen (with water from ice caps split into hydrogen and oxygen), then that would be 23% of the Earth’s oxygen pressure at sea level. The pressure at the summit of Everest is 33% of the Earth’s at sea level, and people have been known to survive, and work hard, without oxygen at that altitude after acclimatisation. So the similarity of 23% and 33% means that we’re already into the right ballpark, even without the mining of basalt.

With mining of minerals, they claim the limit is 6.9% of Earth normal. As I’ve explained above, that is totally wrong, they’ve ignored the oxygen in silica.

Another thing not mentioned in the summary is that in the deeper parts of the surface have a higher atmospheric pressure than the average. See map below.

Look, no-one would claim that the terraforming of Mars would be easy. But it isn’t impossible, and it doesn’t require unknown technologies, just patience. Start with subsurface habitation, then move into lava caves, then move into Hellas Basin.

Living on Earth is actually tougher than living on Mars. Earth has earthquakes, diseases, parasites, corrosion, bushfires etc.

Reply Quote

Date: 1/08/2018 15:14:31
From: Cymek
ID: 1258663
Subject: re: NASA study dashes dreams of terraforming Mars

It doesn’t have to be Earthlike what about breathing masks and minimal protective clothing instead of full space suit

Reply Quote

Date: 1/08/2018 15:21:20
From: Cymek
ID: 1258666
Subject: re: NASA study dashes dreams of terraforming Mars

In those books I mentioned they dug what they called mo-holes to form volcanoes and detonated nuclear weapons deep underground to melt the permafrost, plus had continent sized orbital mirrors to hear the surface. Beyond our technology but not make believe either

Reply Quote

Date: 1/08/2018 15:21:44
From: party_pants
ID: 1258667
Subject: re: NASA study dashes dreams of terraforming Mars

Cymek said:


It doesn’t have to be Earthlike what about breathing masks and minimal protective clothing instead of full space suit

Doesn’t sound promising. Without an Earthlike atmosphere the low pressure, high UV and the bitter cold means that some sort of space suit would always be required.

Reply Quote

Date: 1/08/2018 15:24:32
From: Cymek
ID: 1258670
Subject: re: NASA study dashes dreams of terraforming Mars

party_pants said:


Cymek said:

It doesn’t have to be Earthlike what about breathing masks and minimal protective clothing instead of full space suit

Doesn’t sound promising. Without an Earthlike atmosphere the low pressure, high UV and the bitter cold means that some sort of space suit would always be required.

What about something resembling the atmosphere at the top of a mountain.

Could you create localised magnetic fields to prevent the atmosphere being stripped away

Reply Quote

Date: 1/08/2018 16:32:09
From: roughbarked
ID: 1258695
Subject: re: NASA study dashes dreams of terraforming Mars

mollwollfumble said:

Living on Earth is actually tougher than living on Mars. Earth has earthquakes, diseases, parasites, corrosion, bushfires etc.

Yeah but we still managed to overpopulate it in no time flat.

Reply Quote

Date: 1/08/2018 16:49:54
From: Spiny Norman
ID: 1258697
Subject: re: NASA study dashes dreams of terraforming Mars

mollwollfumble said:

The pressure at the summit of Everest is 33% of the Earth’s at sea level, and people have been known to survive, and work hard, without oxygen at that altitude after acclimatisation.

Nope – You need more pressure than that. Above about 8,000 metres you need supplemental oxygen a lot of the time. Yes Everest has been climbed without oxygen, but the last dash to the summit has to be done quickly. Above about that level you are almost certain to die unless you come back down again.

More on this

Reply Quote

Date: 1/08/2018 19:07:58
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1258745
Subject: re: NASA study dashes dreams of terraforming Mars

Cymek said:


Could you create localised magnetic fields to prevent the atmosphere being stripped away

Not necessary. The protection to the atmosphere provided by magnetic fields is small. For several reasons. Venus has no need for a significant magnetic field.

As for high UV, so what? It only amounts to about 5% of sunlight. Sunscreen suffices.

Reply Quote

Date: 1/08/2018 20:53:13
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1258800
Subject: re: NASA study dashes dreams of terraforming Mars

mollwollfumble said:


Cymek said:

Could you create localised magnetic fields to prevent the atmosphere being stripped away

Not necessary. The protection to the atmosphere provided by magnetic fields is small. For several reasons. Venus has no need for a significant magnetic field.

As for high UV, so what? It only amounts to about 5% of sunlight. Sunscreen suffices.

You should inform NASA of your conclusions, I’m sure they would be very interested.

Reply Quote