I had a thought, an idea, an idea possibly worse than none at all, it being that a thread that didn’t make sense may work, or more it doesn’t have to make sense, something that would really take the pressure off, and it occurred to me i’m probably qualified for that, had more experience than many, perhaps most.

imagine for a moment not having to make sense, like a dream, or drunken party.

anyway i’m here trying to tap into that ability immature humans have, for them language is no great study, certainly not like it is for adults that have been forced to make sense for a long time.

imagine that, an age before you were forced to make sense. You’re an adult now, had an education, can speak well, all that and so much more makes sense than when you were immature. That alphabet flying around doesn’t leave you confused, you learnt what made sense.

but how much fun is it making that much sense, for that long, all the time, I mean the immature humans seem to be having a really good time, before they have an alphabet even, or certainly a written alphabet composed of distinct letters.

were there any benefits at all for our ancestors, way back, before the alphabet?

transition said:

I had a thought, an idea, an idea possibly worse than none at all, it being that a thread that didn’t make sense may work, or more it doesn’t have to make sense, something that would really take the pressure off, and it occurred to me i’m probably qualified for that, had more experience than many, perhaps most.

imagine for a moment not having to make sense, like a dream, or drunken party.

anyway i’m here trying to tap into that ability immature humans have, for them language is no great study, certainly not like it is for adults that have been forced to make sense for a long time.

imagine that, an age before you were forced to make sense. You’re an adult now, had an education, can speak well, all that and so much more makes sense than when you were immature. That alphabet flying around doesn’t leave you confused, you learnt what made sense.

but how much fun is it making that much sense, for that long, all the time, I mean the immature humans seem to be having a really good time, before they have an alphabet even, or certainly a written alphabet composed of distinct letters.

were there any benefits at all for our ancestors, way back, before the alphabet?

> imagine for a moment not having to make sense, like a dream, or drunken party. anyway i’m here trying to tap into that ability immature humans have

Like Dr Suess, Lewis Carol, Thurber’s drawings, abstract art, primitivism?

transition said:

were there any benefits at all for our ancestors, way back, before the alphabet?

Most human inventions come about to satisfy a perceived need or deficiency.

Presumably, alphabets and written communication were invented for that reason. Whatever the situation was before their invention, it was probably seen as being in need of improvement with written language. So, the benefits of having writing were presumably felt in some way to outweigh whatever might be lost by not having it.

captain_spalding said:

transition said:

were there any benefits at all for our ancestors, way back, before the alphabet?

Most human inventions come about to satisfy a perceived need or deficiency.

Presumably, alphabets and written communication were invented for that reason. Whatever the situation was before their invention, it was probably seen as being in need of improvement with written language. So, the benefits of having writing were presumably felt in some way to outweigh whatever might be lost by not having it.

When language does not suffice, drawings or scratchings could have been first.

roughbarked said:

captain_spalding said:

transition said:

were there any benefits at all for our ancestors, way back, before the alphabet?

Most human inventions come about to satisfy a perceived need or deficiency.

Presumably, alphabets and written communication were invented for that reason. Whatever the situation was before their invention, it was probably seen as being in need of improvement with written language. So, the benefits of having writing were presumably felt in some way to outweigh whatever might be lost by not having it.

When language does not suffice, drawings or scratchings could have been first.

Undoubtedly. Chinese developed as pictograms – alphabet/words derived from pictures/representations. Alphabets are all a set of symbols, which can be combined to express more complex details and concepts. Once the limitations of simply drawing pictures were reached, probably fairly quickly, the need for something to use to provide differentiation, nuance, concept, and details would have arisen i.e. alphabets.

The first written communication was probably just simple tally lists for barter, I gave you 10 turtles but you didn’t have enough woven baskets for my turtles rather than drag them back over the mountain, you owe me 5 baskets and we will draw them on this animal skin and I will see you at the next big moon.

Without a written language most knowledge would be lost, can’t past most of it on orally or in a pictogram form and scientific knowledge is too complex anyway

AwesomeO said:

The first written communication was probably just simple tally lists for barter, I gave you 10 turtles but you didn’t have enough woven baskets for my turtles rather than drag them back over the mountain, you owe me 5 baskets and we will draw them on this animal skin and I will see you at the next big moon.

Transactions of that nature were marked on a stock of wood, the stock was then split in two and each punter kept one of the halves. These stocks could be traded and hence we have the term stock exchange.

Peak Warming Man said:

AwesomeO said:

The first written communication was probably just simple tally lists for barter, I gave you 10 turtles but you didn’t have enough woven baskets for my turtles rather than drag them back over the mountain, you owe me 5 baskets and we will draw them on this animal skin and I will see you at the next big moon.

Transactions of that nature were marked on a stock of wood, the stock was then split in two and each punter kept one of the halves. These stocks could be traded and hence we have the term stock exchange.

And counterfeiting was borne.

PermeateFree said:

Peak Warming Man said:

AwesomeO said:

The first written communication was probably just simple tally lists for barter, I gave you 10 turtles but you didn’t have enough woven baskets for my turtles rather than drag them back over the mountain, you owe me 5 baskets and we will draw them on this animal skin and I will see you at the next big moon.

Transactions of that nature were marked on a stock of wood, the stock was then split in two and each punter kept one of the halves. These stocks could be traded and hence we have the term stock exchange.

And counterfeiting was borne.

Well that was the beauty of it, when the two half stocks were brought together they matched, same wood grain, same length, same split, and the runes on them matched up.

In jail they used to use cigarettes as currency, not so much as barter but as a medium of exchange, on American jail shows, now that cigarettes are banned the new unit of currency is packets of dehydrated noodles.

AwesomeO said:

In jail they used to use cigarettes as currency, not so much as barter but as a medium of exchange, on American jail shows, now that cigarettes are banned the new unit of currency is packets of dehydrated noodles.

god, i’d be a poor man. or rich as i certainly wouldn’t be eating my stocks.

:-)

Peak Warming Man said:

PermeateFree said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Transactions of that nature were marked on a stock of wood, the stock was then split in two and each punter kept one of the halves. These stocks could be traded and hence we have the term stock exchange.

And counterfeiting was borne.

Well that was the beauty of it, when the two half stocks were brought together they matched, same wood grain, same length, same split, and the runes on them matched up.

What a crafty person would do is make a stock, burn one half and cheaply sell the other in the village over the hill.

JudgeMental said:

AwesomeO said:

In jail they used to use cigarettes as currency, not so much as barter but as a medium of exchange, on American jail shows, now that cigarettes are banned the new unit of currency is packets of dehydrated noodles.

god, i’d be a poor man. or rich as i certainly wouldn’t be eating my stocks.

:-)

Well if you worked at the prison shop or had a relative who transferred money to your account you would do the shop at commissary and buy noodles to exchange for the things that you did want.

PermeateFree said:

Peak Warming Man said:

PermeateFree said:

And counterfeiting was borne.

Well that was the beauty of it, when the two half stocks were brought together they matched, same wood grain, same length, same split, and the runes on them matched up.

What a crafty person would do is make a stock, burn one half and cheaply sell the other in the village over the hill.

In Afghanistan there was a Bank of England cheque running around scribbled with notations as people passed it to each other, they knew enough that asan English cheque it was safe as money but there was no real way to cash it but it was still treated as having value.

fried egg on toast landed

not sure an alphabet, once it’s sort of permeated ones head, been used a lot, helps much with imagining what’d be like without it..

seems less easy to think about than transporting myself back in time 400,000 years, i’m on the African savanna, I discover a letter K hanging in a tree.

presumably the faculties, or cognitive tools I employ for written language were used for something else back then.

what though.

transition said:

not sure an alphabet, once it’s sort of permeated ones head, been used a lot, helps much with imagining what’d be like without it..

seems less easy to think about than transporting myself back in time 400,000 years, i’m on the African savanna, I discover a letter K hanging in a tree.

presumably the faculties, or cognitive tools I employ for written language were used for something else back then.

what though.

You probably thought it mant you were deficient in vitamin K.

>You probably thought it mant you were deficient in vitamin K.

:-)

letter fairly clearly point to sounds, and composites make words, and words point to things, ideas etc. Same of sentences. That’s how it feels to me anyway, like pointing(directing). I’m imagining a finger pointing the stuff. You can point by looking at something and grunting. I do that quite a bit.

I’m trying to imagine what the written language ability descends from, as it would have found use in the ancestral environments, before writing, before a written alphabet.

clearly things in the environment.

I’m just reminding myself that “contracts” existed before the alphabet.

One of the main reasons for inventing the alphabet would have been to record contracts. But contracts such as “pay 4 spears a year for the purchase of a wife” existed before the alphabet.

On the other hand, taxation may not have existed prior to the alphabet. If not, then one of the advantages of life before the alphabet would have been the absence of taxation.

mollwollfumble said:

I’m just reminding myself that “contracts” existed before the alphabet.

One of the main reasons for inventing the alphabet would have been to record contracts. But contracts such as “pay 4 spears a year for the purchase of a wife” existed before the alphabet.

On the other hand, taxation may not have existed prior to the alphabet. If not, then one of the advantages of life before the alphabet would have been the absence of taxation.

So you think that taxation, and the associated services provided, is a bad thing?

The Rev Dodgson said:

mollwollfumble said:

I’m just reminding myself that “contracts” existed before the alphabet.

One of the main reasons for inventing the alphabet would have been to record contracts. But contracts such as “pay 4 spears a year for the purchase of a wife” existed before the alphabet.

On the other hand, taxation may not have existed prior to the alphabet. If not, then one of the advantages of life before the alphabet would have been the absence of taxation.

So you think that taxation, and the associated services provided, is a bad thing?

Don’t think there was a need for mathematics, the alphabet or taxation before people started growing food and/or domesticating animals.

PermeateFree said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

mollwollfumble said:

I’m just reminding myself that “contracts” existed before the alphabet.

One of the main reasons for inventing the alphabet would have been to record contracts. But contracts such as “pay 4 spears a year for the purchase of a wife” existed before the alphabet.

On the other hand, taxation may not have existed prior to the alphabet. If not, then one of the advantages of life before the alphabet would have been the absence of taxation.

So you think that taxation, and the associated services provided, is a bad thing?

Don’t think there was a need for mathematics, the alphabet or taxation before people started growing food and/or domesticating animals.

You mean civilised people?

roughbarked said:

PermeateFree said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

So you think that taxation, and the associated services provided, is a bad thing?

Don’t think there was a need for mathematics, the alphabet or taxation before people started growing food and/or domesticating animals.

You mean civilised people?

Civilisation did not begin until people gave up hunter/gathering and lived together in large numbers and to do that, they needed to be able to supply food they had produced themselves.

PermeateFree said:

roughbarked said:

PermeateFree said:

Don’t think there was a need for mathematics, the alphabet or taxation before people started growing food and/or domesticating animals.

You mean civilised people?

Civilisation did not begin until people gave up hunter/gathering and lived together in large numbers and to do that, they needed to be able to supply food they had produced themselves.

Indeed, which caused the requirement for all the other stuff.

The Rev Dodgson said:

mollwollfumble said:

I’m just reminding myself that “contracts” existed before the alphabet.

One of the main reasons for inventing the alphabet would have been to record contracts. But contracts such as “pay 4 spears a year for the purchase of a wife” existed before the alphabet.

On the other hand, taxation may not have existed prior to the alphabet. If not, then one of the advantages of life before the alphabet would have been the absence of taxation.

So you think that taxation, and the associated services provided, is a bad thing?

Heinlein did. No tax on the Moon in “the Moon is a harsh mistress”.

certainly a geometry about letters, and a composite geometry making for more a single geometry (shape) of words. This’d work, because sight’s processing for geometric shapes is quite rapid, has to be.