Date: 15/08/2018 04:58:35
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1263072
Subject: Unless we spot changes, most life experiences are fabricated from memories

Unless we spot changes, most life experiences are fabricated from memories

We may not be able to change recent events in our lives, but how well we remember them plays a key role in how our brains model what’s happening in the present and predict what is likely to occur in the future, finds new research.

more…

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Date: 15/08/2018 21:49:41
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1263504
Subject: re: Unless we spot changes, most life experiences are fabricated from memories

Tau.Neutrino said:


Unless we spot changes, most life experiences are fabricated from memories

We may not be able to change recent events in our lives, but how well we remember them plays a key role in how our brains model what’s happening in the present and predict what is likely to occur in the future, finds new research.

more…

“the brain continually compares sensory input from ongoing experiences against working models of similar past events that it builds from related memories.”

No argument there.

Yes. Remembering things changes memories. The only way to keep memories unaltered is to not use them.

Is this supposed to be new. It looks pretty old-hat to me. But then again, that may be my memory playing tricks.

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Date: 15/08/2018 21:55:15
From: Peak Warming Man
ID: 1263508
Subject: re: Unless we spot changes, most life experiences are fabricated from memories

mollwollfumble said:


Tau.Neutrino said:

Unless we spot changes, most life experiences are fabricated from memories

We may not be able to change recent events in our lives, but how well we remember them plays a key role in how our brains model what’s happening in the present and predict what is likely to occur in the future, finds new research.

more…

“the brain continually compares sensory input from ongoing experiences against working models of similar past events that it builds from related memories.”

No argument there.

Yes. Remembering things changes memories. The only way to keep memories unaltered is to not use them.

Is this supposed to be new. It looks pretty old-hat to me. But then again, that may be my memory playing tricks.

Interesting article none the less.

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Date: 16/08/2018 01:04:12
From: kii
ID: 1263608
Subject: re: Unless we spot changes, most life experiences are fabricated from memories

The sign actually says….Varity of Apples.

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Date: 16/08/2018 10:00:57
From: transition
ID: 1263674
Subject: re: Unless we spot changes, most life experiences are fabricated from memories

> continually compares

thrust of that’s bullshit

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Date: 16/08/2018 10:22:03
From: esselte
ID: 1263680
Subject: re: Unless we spot changes, most life experiences are fabricated from memories

mollwollfumble said:

“the brain continually compares sensory input from ongoing experiences against working models of similar past events that it builds from related memories.”

No argument there.

Shouldn’t that be “the brain continuously compares…”?

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Date: 16/08/2018 10:30:30
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1263682
Subject: re: Unless we spot changes, most life experiences are fabricated from memories

esselte said:


mollwollfumble said:

“the brain continually compares sensory input from ongoing experiences against working models of similar past events that it builds from related memories.”

No argument there.

Shouldn’t that be “the brain continuously compares…”?

What’s the difference, in this context?

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Date: 16/08/2018 10:32:44
From: esselte
ID: 1263684
Subject: re: Unless we spot changes, most life experiences are fabricated from memories

mollwollfumble said:


esselte said:

mollwollfumble said:

“the brain continually compares sensory input from ongoing experiences against working models of similar past events that it builds from related memories.”

No argument there.

Shouldn’t that be “the brain continuously compares…”?

What’s the difference, in this context?

…Continually should be used to mean “very often; at regular or frequent intervals,” and continuously to mean “unceasingly; constantly; without interruption.”

https://www.dictionary.com/e/continually-vs-continuously/

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Date: 16/08/2018 10:46:11
From: Michael V
ID: 1263688
Subject: re: Unless we spot changes, most life experiences are fabricated from memories

esselte said:


mollwollfumble said:

esselte said:

Shouldn’t that be “the brain continuously compares…”?

What’s the difference, in this context?

…Continually should be used to mean “very often; at regular or frequent intervals,” and continuously to mean “unceasingly; constantly; without interruption.”

https://www.dictionary.com/e/continually-vs-continuously/

Hence continually is correct.

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Date: 16/08/2018 10:52:46
From: esselte
ID: 1263696
Subject: re: Unless we spot changes, most life experiences are fabricated from memories

Michael V said:


esselte said:

mollwollfumble said:

What’s the difference, in this context?

…Continually should be used to mean “very often; at regular or frequent intervals,” and continuously to mean “unceasingly; constantly; without interruption.”

https://www.dictionary.com/e/continually-vs-continuously/

Hence continually is correct.

You don’t think the processing of sensory information is a continual process? We keep processing sensory information even when we are asleep. What happens to your ability to interact with the world when your brain shuts down between regular, frequent intervals of cognition?

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Date: 16/08/2018 10:59:23
From: esselte
ID: 1263701
Subject: re: Unless we spot changes, most life experiences are fabricated from memories

esselte said:


Michael V said:

esselte said:

…Continually should be used to mean “very often; at regular or frequent intervals,” and continuously to mean “unceasingly; constantly; without interruption.”

https://www.dictionary.com/e/continually-vs-continuously/

Hence continually is correct.

You don’t think the processing of sensory information is a continuous process? We keep processing sensory information even when we are asleep. What happens to your ability to interact with the world when your brain shuts down between regular, frequent intervals of cognition?

Edit: “…continuous process” rather than “continual”. Victim of my own pedantry.

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Date: 16/08/2018 11:03:34
From: Michael V
ID: 1263704
Subject: re: Unless we spot changes, most life experiences are fabricated from memories

esselte said:


Michael V said:

esselte said:

…Continually should be used to mean “very often; at regular or frequent intervals,” and continuously to mean “unceasingly; constantly; without interruption.”

https://www.dictionary.com/e/continually-vs-continuously/

Hence continually is correct.

You don’t think the processing of sensory information is a continual process? We keep processing sensory information even when we are asleep. What happens to your ability to interact with the world when your brain shuts down between regular, frequent intervals of cognition?

No I don’t. the brain jumps from this to that. A good example is saccades, where the eye movement allows the brain to process the eye data. Another example is the way the brain accepts 20 frames per second still images from a move and processes them into a “continuous” moving image.

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Date: 16/08/2018 11:04:21
From: Michael V
ID: 1263705
Subject: re: Unless we spot changes, most life experiences are fabricated from memories

esselte said:


esselte said:

Michael V said:

Hence continually is correct.

You don’t think the processing of sensory information is a continuous process? We keep processing sensory information even when we are asleep. What happens to your ability to interact with the world when your brain shuts down between regular, frequent intervals of cognition?

Edit: “…continuous process” rather than “continual”. Victim of my own pedantry.

Yeah, I figured you meant continuous.

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Date: 16/08/2018 11:37:13
From: esselte
ID: 1263710
Subject: re: Unless we spot changes, most life experiences are fabricated from memories

Michael V said:


No I don’t. the brain jumps from this to that. A good example is saccades, where the eye movement allows the brain to process the eye data. Another example is the way the brain accepts 20 frames per second still images from a move and processes them into a “continuous” moving image.

I don’t understand what you mean by “…eye movement allows the brain to process the eye data”. The human eye is good at taking in sensory information on a roughly 6-7 degree arc. Including peripheral vision, the human field of vision is about 120 degrees. At any one time the sensory input from the eyes received from the 6-7 degree arc is being processed by the brain. At the same time the brain is “filling in” the peripheral vision information from memory – a memory constructed from the sensory information your brain received and processed a few micro-seconds earlier as your eyes moved around the scene. At all times the brain is processing the information being received by the eye over that 6 or 7 degree field, it’s continuous. The brain doesn’t take breaks from processing the inputs it is receiving from the eye.

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Date: 16/08/2018 11:39:41
From: esselte
ID: 1263712
Subject: re: Unless we spot changes, most life experiences are fabricated from memories

esselte said:


Michael V said:

No I don’t. the brain jumps from this to that. A good example is saccades, where the eye movement allows the brain to process the eye data. Another example is the way the brain accepts 20 frames per second still images from a move and processes them into a “continuous” moving image.

I don’t understand what you mean by “…eye movement allows the brain to process the eye data”. The human eye is good at taking in sensory information on a roughly 6-7 degree arc. Including peripheral vision, the human field of vision is about 120 degrees. At any one time the sensory input from the eyes received from the 6-7 degree arc is being processed by the brain. At the same time the brain is “filling in” the peripheral vision information from memory – a memory constructed from the sensory information your brain received and processed a few micro-seconds earlier as your eyes moved around the scene. At all times the brain is processing the information being received by the eye over that 6 or 7 degree field, it’s continuous. The brain doesn’t take breaks from processing the inputs it is receiving from the eye.

FFS esselte, second last sentence, “…it’s continual” not it’s “continuous”.

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Date: 16/08/2018 11:47:05
From: transition
ID: 1263713
Subject: re: Unless we spot changes, most life experiences are fabricated from memories

>You don’t think the processing of sensory information is a continual process? We keep processing sensory information even when we are asleep. What happens to your ability to interact with the world when your brain shuts down between regular, frequent intervals of cognition?”

There are no indications equilibrium mental states (a not unsubstantial part of experience) are a constant work of memory, or mostly memory, or comparison, or should be, or that more of the latter is better.

A forgetory is a very handy thing, the term and idea are not entirely silly, it’s almost a folk idea perhaps, if you’ll allow me a momentary modest retreat to something resembling folk psychology.

Not up for it today, the gorilla of big ideas about cognition.

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Date: 16/08/2018 12:02:25
From: esselte
ID: 1263714
Subject: re: Unless we spot changes, most life experiences are fabricated from memories

transition said:

There are no indications equilibrium mental states (a not unsubstantial part of experience) are a constant work of memory, or mostly memory, or comparison, or should be, or that more of the latter is better.

Searching Google for “equilibrium mental states” only turns up a whole lot of new-age hogwash for me. What is an equilibrium mental state as you are defining it? Can you give examples?

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Date: 16/08/2018 12:11:08
From: transition
ID: 1263715
Subject: re: Unless we spot changes, most life experiences are fabricated from memories

esselte said:


transition said:

There are no indications equilibrium mental states (a not unsubstantial part of experience) are a constant work of memory, or mostly memory, or comparison, or should be, or that more of the latter is better.

Searching Google for “equilibrium mental states” only turns up a whole lot of new-age hogwash for me. What is an equilibrium mental state as you are defining it? Can you give examples?

the home in ya head. The feel of it.

let me know if that’s too simple.

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Date: 16/08/2018 12:12:54
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1263716
Subject: re: Unless we spot changes, most life experiences are fabricated from memories

A good selection of photos of Italian bridge collapse and rescue work here:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-15/italian-bridge-collapse-apocalyptic-scenes-morandi-genoa/10121984

But:
“Experts are not sure exactly what caused the bridge to collapse, but the current working theory is that it was a “structural failure”.”

is much like saying:
“Experts are not sure exactly what caused the structural failure, but the current working theory is that it was a “bridge collapse”.

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Date: 16/08/2018 12:13:57
From: esselte
ID: 1263717
Subject: re: Unless we spot changes, most life experiences are fabricated from memories

transition said:


esselte said:

transition said:

There are no indications equilibrium mental states (a not unsubstantial part of experience) are a constant work of memory, or mostly memory, or comparison, or should be, or that more of the latter is better.

Searching Google for “equilibrium mental states” only turns up a whole lot of new-age hogwash for me. What is an equilibrium mental state as you are defining it? Can you give examples?

the home in ya head. The feel of it.

let me know if that’s too simple.

That’s too simple.

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Date: 16/08/2018 13:09:00
From: transition
ID: 1263726
Subject: re: Unless we spot changes, most life experiences are fabricated from memories

esselte said:


transition said:

esselte said:

Searching Google for “equilibrium mental states” only turns up a whole lot of new-age hogwash for me. What is an equilibrium mental state as you are defining it? Can you give examples?

the home in ya head. The feel of it.

let me know if that’s too simple.

That’s too simple.

not wrong though.

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Date: 16/08/2018 13:42:29
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1263745
Subject: re: Unless we spot changes, most life experiences are fabricated from memories

transition said:


esselte said:

transition said:

the home in ya head. The feel of it.

let me know if that’s too simple.

That’s too simple.

not wrong though.

I think I understand the different points of view here, you’re both right because you’re treating “brain” and “life experiences” in a different way. It I have this right:

esselte is treating the article as about a “brain” which all neural processing in the head, starting from the retina and cochlea.

transition is treating “life experiences” as a smaller object, akin to conscious mind, where circular processes predominate, as a seat of long term memory and the sense of self.

The article itself isn’t all that precise. Let’s start by considering their Figure 1.

Now the top of this says nothing about whether either conscious or unconscious mind is involved in the formation of memories, modification of memories and recall of memories. It sayd nothing about hof short term memory becomes long term memory/ That makes it too simplistic to the point of being wrong.

Now we look further down and the article is all about long term memories, rather than about short term memories or input data. I think that what it’s saying is that if input is similar to an existing memory chain but different, and if that difference is not picked up by the conscious mind, then it disrupts the memory chain to such an extent that the disruption exceeds the area of the change.

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Date: 16/08/2018 14:00:15
From: esselte
ID: 1263749
Subject: re: Unless we spot changes, most life experiences are fabricated from memories

mollwollfumble said:

I think that what it’s saying is that if input is similar to an existing memory chain but different, and if that difference is not picked up by the conscious mind, then it disrupts the memory chain to such an extent that the disruption exceeds the area of the change.

Whilst trying to figure out what Transition meant by mental equilibrium I came across this article on cognitive equilibrium.

https://www.britannica.com/science/cognitive-equilibrium

“Cognitive equilibrium, a state of balance between individuals’ mental schemata, or frameworks, and their environment. Such balance occurs when their expectations, based on prior knowledge, fit with new knowledge…

“When individuals encounter new discrepant information, they enter into a state of disequilibrium. In order to return to a state of equilibrium, individuals can ignore the information or attempt to manage it. One option for managing discrepant information is called assimilation, and the other option is called accommodation.

“Assimilation is the process of modifying discrepant information so that it matches current schemata. For example, a child visiting a petting zoo may encounter a pony for the first time. The child recognizes some of the features of the animal, so the “dog” schema is activated and the child says, “Dog!”…. Erroneous or not, assimilation does not produce cognitive change….

“Cognitive change, and thus cognitive development, can be achieved only through accommodation. Accommodation is the process of modifying current schemata so that they match discrepant information. For instance, in the previous example of the child at the petting zoo, the child’s caretaker might have said, “No, that’s not a dog; that’s a pony.” In this case, the child’s old schema did not work, so the child must reevaluate the “dog” schema. To do so, the child must determine whether the “dog” and “pony” schemata might both fall under a larger “four-legged animal” schema, whether they can both exist separately from each other, and which characteristics differentiate two animals. The child’s slightly modified “four-legged animal” schema is now less vulnerable to disequilibrium due to discrepant information and is therefore more stable.

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Date: 16/08/2018 14:18:08
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1263767
Subject: re: Unless we spot changes, most life experiences are fabricated from memories

esselte said:


mollwollfumble said:

I think that what it’s saying is that if input is similar to an existing memory chain but different, and if that difference is not picked up by the conscious mind, then it disrupts the memory chain to such an extent that the disruption exceeds the area of the change.

Whilst trying to figure out what Transition meant by mental equilibrium I came across this article on cognitive equilibrium.

https://www.britannica.com/science/cognitive-equilibrium

“Cognitive equilibrium, a state of balance between individuals’ mental schemata, or frameworks, and their environment. Such balance occurs when their expectations, based on prior knowledge, fit with new knowledge…

“When individuals encounter new discrepant information, they enter into a state of disequilibrium. In order to return to a state of equilibrium, individuals can ignore the information or attempt to manage it. One option for managing discrepant information is called assimilation, and the other option is called accommodation.

“Assimilation is the process of modifying discrepant information so that it matches current schemata. For example, a child visiting a petting zoo may encounter a pony for the first time. The child recognizes some of the features of the animal, so the “dog” schema is activated and the child says, “Dog!”…. Erroneous or not, assimilation does not produce cognitive change….

“Cognitive change, and thus cognitive development, can be achieved only through accommodation. Accommodation is the process of modifying current schemata so that they match discrepant information. For instance, in the previous example of the child at the petting zoo, the child’s caretaker might have said, “No, that’s not a dog; that’s a pony.” In this case, the child’s old schema did not work, so the child must reevaluate the “dog” schema. To do so, the child must determine whether the “dog” and “pony” schemata might both fall under a larger “four-legged animal” schema, whether they can both exist separately from each other, and which characteristics differentiate two animals. The child’s slightly modified “four-legged animal” schema is now less vulnerable to disequilibrium due to discrepant information and is therefore more stable.

The example I’m thinking of is sonata form in music, with exposition, development, recapitulation.

On first hearing, the two themes of the exposition (in tonic and dominant) go into short term memory.
The repeat firms up the “assimilation” phase, moving it from short term to long term memory.
The development lays down a new “accommodation” memory chain separate to the first, but because this isn’t repeated it’s difficult to remember.

Then comes the recapitulation. It starts off as an “assimilation” and then diverges into “accommodation”

What they say about “cognitive development, can be achieved only through accommodation” is too simplistic in that it doesn’t take into account how “assimilation” moves memories from short term to long term. I could even play devil’s advocate and say that “cognitive development, can be achieved only through assimilation” on the grounds that accommodation without reinforcement is all lost when short term memory is deleted.

And thinking about that, now I realise why Missy never learnt the advanced maths that I taught her, she solved all her examples quickly and accurately. But I didn’t put any effort into exact repetition (rote learning) and therefore it dropped out of mind when her short term memory was deleted.

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Date: 16/08/2018 14:20:35
From: Witty Rejoinder
ID: 1263768
Subject: re: Unless we spot changes, most life experiences are fabricated from memories

esselte said:

Whilst trying to figure out what Transition meant

A fool’s errand I’m afraid…

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Date: 16/08/2018 14:21:54
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1263770
Subject: re: Unless we spot changes, most life experiences are fabricated from memories

Witty Rejoinder said:


esselte said:

Whilst trying to figure out what Transition meant

A fool’s errand I’m afraid…

Perhaps, but often worthwhile.

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