Scientists have uncovered the first known child to parents of different species of ancient humans.

A small bone fragment discovered in a Siberian cave has been identified as belonging to a girl with a Neanderthal mother and Denisovan father.

The two extinct groups of humans differ far more than any two present-day groups of people but are our closest ancient human relatives. The study, published in Nature, gives a rare insight into their lives.

The team, led by palaeogeneticists Viviane Slon and Svante Pääbo of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany, conducted the genome analysis on the bone fragment uncovered in the Denisova Cave in Russia.

“We knew from previous studies that Neanderthals and Denisovans must have occasionally had children together,” Dr Slon told Nature.

“But I never thought we would be so lucky as to find an actual offspring of the two groups.”

Very few — less than 20 early human ancestors — have had their genomes sequenced.

“It is striking that we find this Neanderthal/Denisovan child among the handful of ancient individuals whose genomes have been sequenced,” said Dr Pääbo.

“Neanderthals and Denisovans may not have had many opportunities to meet. But when they did, they must have mated frequently — much more so than we previously thought.”

The study also revealed that the Denisovan father had at least one Neanderthal ancestor.

“So from this single genome, we are able to detect multiple instances of interactions between Neanderthals and Denisovans,” said Benjamin Vernot from the MPI-EVA, a third co-author of the study.

The Denisova cave lends its name to the Denisovans, who were first identified by a fingertip found within the cave in 2008.

The fingertip was the first of a string of notable archaeological discoveries to be found within the cave. A Denisovan tooth was found in 2010, and bone in 2013, that suggested early Europeans were more closely related to Denisovans than Neanderthals.

Scientists already knew that Neanderthals, Denisovans, and early modern humans must have interbred because mixed DNA lingers in people today, but the new study is the first to identify a first-generation child with such parents.

The two species lived until about 40,000 years ago, Neanderthals in the west and Denisovans in the east, however the cave — and the wider Altai region — are known to have been home to both groups.

The study shows that Neanderthals migrated between western and eastern Europe and Asia tens of thousands of years before they died out.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-23/scientists-discover-bones-of-first-child-of-different-species/10155434

Wow. That is an amazing find.

I’ve been following the news from Denisova Cave for some time now.

The early palaeoanthropologists would have been astonished at what we can deduce from bones these days.

>>The study shows that Neanderthals migrated between western and eastern Europe and Asia tens of thousands of years before they died out.

Did they really die out or did they just meld with the various other humanoids and become us.

Peak Warming Man said:

>>The study shows that Neanderthals migrated between western and eastern Europe and Asia tens of thousands of years before they died out.

Did they really die out or did they just meld with the various other humanoids and become us.

Classic Neanderthal fossils are found right to the end, inhabiting increasingly isolated patches of Spain and southern France.

It’s as if they were trying to keep their distance from whatever else was going on.

Bubblecar said:

Peak Warming Man said:

>>The study shows that Neanderthals migrated between western and eastern Europe and Asia tens of thousands of years before they died out.

Did they really die out or did they just meld with the various other humanoids and become us.

Classic Neanderthal fossils are found right to the end, inhabiting increasingly isolated patches of Spain and southern France.

It’s as if they were trying to keep their distance from whatever else was going on.

Which was probably in a modern term, ethnic cleansing.

AwesomeO said:

Bubblecar said:

Peak Warming Man said:

>>The study shows that Neanderthals migrated between western and eastern Europe and Asia tens of thousands of years before they died out.

Did they really die out or did they just meld with the various other humanoids and become us.

Classic Neanderthal fossils are found right to the end, inhabiting increasingly isolated patches of Spain and southern France.

It’s as if they were trying to keep their distance from whatever else was going on.

Which was probably in a modern term, ethnic cleansing.

Agree. But modern humans evolved FROM Neanderthals 300,000 years ago. That fact seems to have been ignored.

> A small bone fragment discovered in a Siberian cave has been identified as belonging to a girl with a Neanderthal mother and Denisovan father.

Totally amazing to have discovered that, mindblowingly unexpected, with so few known Denisovan fossils that, according to wikipedia only five fossil fragments have been found – one finger bone, one toe bone and three molars.

> Very few — less than 20 early human ancestors — have had their genomes sequenced.

In the words of Tim Shaw of Demtel “We know you want more”. I want to see at least the sequencing of Homo floresiensis and Homo erectus. Homo habilis would be a plus.

Peak Warming Man said:

>>The study shows that Neanderthals migrated between western and eastern Europe and Asia tens of thousands of years before they died out.

Did they really die out or did they just meld with the various other humanoids and become us.

Both, I’d reckon.

mollwollfumble said:

Agree. But modern humans evolved FROM Neanderthals 300,000 years ago. That fact seems to have been ignored.

Did they?

I thought modern humans evolved in Africa, and Neanderthals in Europe, from common ancestors?

mollwollfumble said:

AwesomeO said:

Bubblecar said:

Classic Neanderthal fossils are found right to the end, inhabiting increasingly isolated patches of Spain and southern France.

It’s as if they were trying to keep their distance from whatever else was going on.

Which was probably in a modern term, ethnic cleansing.

Agree. But modern humans evolved FROM Neanderthals 300,000 years ago. That fact seems to have been ignored.

> A small bone fragment discovered in a Siberian cave has been identified as belonging to a girl with a Neanderthal mother and Denisovan father.

Totally amazing to have discovered that, mindblowingly unexpected, with so few known Denisovan fossils that, according to wikipedia only five fossil fragments have been found – one finger bone, one toe bone and three molars.

> Very few — less than 20 early human ancestors — have had their genomes sequenced.

In the words of Tim Shaw of Demtel “We know you want more”. I want to see at least the sequencing of Homo floresiensis and Homo erectus. Homo habilis would be a plus.

Modern humans didn’t evolve from Neanderthals.

mollwollfumble said:

Agree. But modern humans evolved FROM Neanderthals 300,000 years ago. That fact seems to have been ignored.

From a common ancestor, then modern humans arose in Africa and lived alone for a long period without any admixture from Neanderthals, until the human wave of exploration out of Africa about 70 or 80 thousand years ago. That wave interbred with Neanderthals.

The Rev Dodgson said:

mollwollfumble said:

Agree. But modern humans evolved FROM Neanderthals 300,000 years ago. That fact seems to have been ignored.

Did they?

I thought modern humans evolved in Africa, and Neanderthals in Europe, from common ancestors?

Yes.

Bubblecar said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

mollwollfumble said:

Agree. But modern humans evolved FROM Neanderthals 300,000 years ago. That fact seems to have been ignored.

Did they?

I thought modern humans evolved in Africa, and Neanderthals in Europe, from common ancestors?

Yes.

That’s yes to what the Rev thought :)

The Rev Dodgson said:

mollwollfumble said:

Agree. But modern humans evolved FROM Neanderthals 300,000 years ago. That fact seems to have been ignored.

Did they?

I thought modern humans evolved in Africa, and Neanderthals in Europe, from common ancestors?

No. They’re both “out of Africa” species. Modern humans evolved from the Neanderthals that had been left behind in Africa.

mollwollfumble said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

mollwollfumble said:

Agree. But modern humans evolved FROM Neanderthals 300,000 years ago. That fact seems to have been ignored.

Did they?

I thought modern humans evolved in Africa, and Neanderthals in Europe, from common ancestors?

No. They’re both “out of Africa” species. Modern humans evolved from the Neanderthals that had been left behind in Africa.

Better you do some more reading me thinks.

PermeateFree said:

mollwollfumble said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Did they?

I thought modern humans evolved in Africa, and Neanderthals in Europe, from common ancestors?

No. They’re both “out of Africa” species. Modern humans evolved from the Neanderthals that had been left behind in Africa.

Better you do some more reading me thinks.

It constantly amazes me.

I thought I’d look up Denisovan and Neanderthal DNA on Genbank, but can’t figure out how to do it. Anyone know how to do it?

Or we could go with this headline:

This is interesting.

Neandertals and “Ancient and present day modern humans” are much more closely related than either to the Denisovans. Note that this is specifically mitochondrial DNA, which is not necessarily representative of the whole genome and doesn’t show interbreeding.

You may also find it interesting that the bone DC1227 at Denisova cave had passed through the stomach of a hyena.

Divine Angel said:

Or we could go with this headline:

ROFL.

In case you missed it. The DC1227 bone in the chart above is the same bone as Denisova 11 that has recently been found to be child of two species. The fact that the mtDNA is Neanderthal means that the mother, rather than the father, was Neanderthal.

> Neanderthals and Denisovans are extinct groups of hominins that separated from each other more than 390,000 years ago. Here we present the genome of ‘Denisova 11’, a bone fragment from Denisova Cave (Russia) and show that it comes from an individual who had a Neanderthal mother and a Denisovan father. The father, whose genome bears traces of Neanderthal ancestry, came from a population related to a later Denisovan found in the cave 4–6. The mother came from a population more closely related to Neanderthals who lived later in Europe than to an earlier Neanderthal found in Denisova Cave, suggesting that migrations of Neanderthals between eastern and western Eurasia occurred sometime after 120,000 years ago.

The fact that the Neanderthal came from the Netherlands area rather than from Russia is itself news. Oh wait, I have that back to front. Because DC1227 mtDNA is such a primitive type of Neanderthal, it makes more sense if the Neanderthals migrated from Russia to the Netherlands, rather than the other way around.

> Neanderthals and Denisovans inhabited Eurasia until they were replaced by modern humans around 40,000 years ago.

Hmm, the date or Denisovans is a lot less well known than that. Note that I mentioned that 40,000 years in the Supervolcano thread.

> Denisova 11 could have had approximately equal amounts of Neanderthal and Denisovan ancestry because she belonged to a population with mixed Neanderthal and Denisovan ancestry, or because her parents were each from one of these two groups. To determine which of these two scenarios fits the data best …

For more, read the original technical article in Nature https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0455-x.epdf

mollwollfumble said:

In case you missed it. The DC1227 bone in the chart above is the same bone as Denisova 11 that has recently been found to be child of two species. The fact that the mtDNA is Neanderthal means that the mother, rather than the father, was Neanderthal.

> Neanderthals and Denisovans are extinct groups of hominins that separated from each other more than 390,000 years ago. Here we present the genome of ‘Denisova 11’, a bone fragment from Denisova Cave (Russia) and show that it comes from an individual who had a Neanderthal mother and a Denisovan father. The father, whose genome bears traces of Neanderthal ancestry, came from a population related to a later Denisovan found in the cave 4–6. The mother came from a population more closely related to Neanderthals who lived later in Europe than to an earlier Neanderthal found in Denisova Cave, suggesting that migrations of Neanderthals between eastern and western Eurasia occurred sometime after 120,000 years ago.

The fact that the Neanderthal came from the Netherlands area rather than from Russia is itself news. Oh wait, I have that back to front. Because DC1227 mtDNA is such a primitive type of Neanderthal, it makes more sense if the Neanderthals migrated from Russia to the Netherlands, rather than the other way around.

> Neanderthals and Denisovans inhabited Eurasia until they were replaced by modern humans around 40,000 years ago.

Hmm, the date or Denisovans is a lot less well known than that. Note that I mentioned that 40,000 years in the Supervolcano thread.

> Denisova 11 could have had approximately equal amounts of Neanderthal and Denisovan ancestry because she belonged to a population with mixed Neanderthal and Denisovan ancestry, or because her parents were each from one of these two groups. To determine which of these two scenarios fits the data best …

For more, read the original technical article in Nature https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0455-x.epdf

It might also be that the Neanderthals mainly occupied the western part of Europe and The Denisovans the Eastern part.

PermeateFree said:

It might also be that the Neanderthals mainly occupied the western part of Europe and The Denisovans the Eastern part.

Wildly speculative, but if I may be so speculative, the Denisovans may have occupied Asia, taking it over from Erectus.

mollwollfumble said:

PermeateFree said:

It might also be that the Neanderthals mainly occupied the western part of Europe and The Denisovans the Eastern part.

Wildly speculative, but if I may be so speculative, the Denisovans may have occupied Asia, taking it over from Erectus.

Its interesting many of the humanoid species could cross breed and it appears healthily so as well, but that might be harder to determine.

mollwollfumble said:

PermeateFree said:

It might also be that the Neanderthals mainly occupied the western part of Europe and The Denisovans the Eastern part.

Wildly speculative, but if I may be so speculative, the Denisovans may have occupied Asia, taking it over from Erectus.

Not really!

>>The mtDNA analysis further suggested that this new hominin species was the result of an earlier migration out of Africa, distinct from the later out-of-Africa migrations associated with modern humans, but also distinct from the even earlier African exodus of Homo erectus. Pääbo noted that the existence of this distant branch creates a much more complex picture of humankind during the Late Pleistocene. This work shows that the Denisovans were actually a sister group to the Neanderthals, branching off from the human lineage 600,000 years ago, and diverging from Neanderthals, probably in the Middle East, 200,000 years later.<<

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denisovan

PermeateFree said:

mollwollfumble said:

PermeateFree said:

It might also be that the Neanderthals mainly occupied the western part of Europe and The Denisovans the Eastern part.

Wildly speculative, but if I may be so speculative, the Denisovans may have occupied Asia, taking it over from Erectus.

Not really!

>>The mtDNA analysis further suggested that this new hominin species was the result of an earlier migration out of Africa, distinct from the later out-of-Africa migrations associated with modern humans, but also distinct from the even earlier African exodus of Homo erectus. Pääbo noted that the existence of this distant branch creates a much more complex picture of humankind during the Late Pleistocene. This work shows that the Denisovans were actually a sister group to the Neanderthals, branching off from the human lineage 600,000 years ago, and diverging from Neanderthals, probably in the Middle East, 200,000 years later.<<

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denisovan

>>Chris Stringer’s hypothesis of the family tree of genus Homo, published 2012 in Nature – the horizontal axis represents geographic location, and the vertical axis represents time in millions of years ago.<<

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal

Image repaired…

Michael V said:

Image repaired…

So we’re made up of Heidelbergensis, a bit of Neanderthal and a tad of Denis Ovans.

Michael V said:

Image repaired…

Yes much better, thank you. I think it shows the more recent Homo linage quite well, as to who begot who.

PermeateFree said:

Michael V said:

Image repaired…

Yes much better, thank you. I think it shows the more recent Homo linage quite well, as to who begot who.

>>Homo antecessor is a proposed archaic human species of the Lower Paleolithic, known to have been present in Western Europe between about 1.2 million and 0.8 million years ago. Wikipedia<<

Peak Warming Man said:

So we’re made up of Heidelbergensis, a bit of Neanderthal and a tad of Denis Ovans.

He got around a bit, old Denis Ovans.

Peak Warming Man said:

Michael V said:

Image repaired…

So we’re made up of Heidelbergensis, a bit of Neanderthal and a tad of Denis Ovans.

Bit uncertain about the Heisenberg part

Cymek said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Michael V said:

Image repaired…

So we’re made up of Heidelbergensis, a bit of Neanderthal and a tad of Denis Ovans.

Bit uncertain about the Heisenberg part

Quite.

Peak Warming Man said:

Cymek said:

Peak Warming Man said:

So we’re made up of Heidelbergensis, a bit of Neanderthal and a tad of Denis Ovans.

Bit uncertain about the Heisenberg part

Quite.

A good principle.

The fact we had all these humanoids species existing could have meant that homo sapiens sapiens might never have existed if one of early species became dominant

Cymek said:

The fact we had all these humanoids species existing could have meant that homo sapiens sapiens might never have existed if one of early species became dominant

I think it just shows the evolution of the species and who evolved from who.

Michael V said:

Image repaired…

Very Wrong. Because the chart below is correct. The Denisovans split off long before the Neanderthals and modern humans split.

mollwollfumble said:

Michael V said:

Image repaired…

Very Wrong. Because the chart below is correct. The Denisovans split off long before the Neanderthals and modern humans split.

Yes dear. Any links you might throw our way?

moll: the chart you’ve shown indicates that the sapiens-neanderthal split occurred 99000 years ago, and the split with denisovians also occurred 99000 years ago.

Current issue of Scientific American has stuff relevant to this thread. Gotta pay for it though. But here are the details.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/magazine/sa/2018/09-01/

This article in particular has a very good rundown:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-is-homo-sapiens-the-sole-surviving-member-of-the-human-family/

dv said:

moll: the chart you’ve shown indicates that the sapiens-neanderthal split occurred 99000 years ago, and the split with denisovians also occurred 99000 years ago.

No it doesn’t. The 99 is the bootstrap probability in percent. You know that.

> Yes dear. Any links you might throw our way?

Yes. Look up DC1227 on scholar Google of course. First hit.

And remember, this is the same individual.

mollwollfumble said:

dv said:

moll: the chart you’ve shown indicates that the sapiens-neanderthal split occurred 99000 years ago, and the split with denisovians also occurred 99000 years ago.

No it doesn’t. The 99 is the bootstrap probability in percent. You know that.

> Yes dear. Any links you might throw our way?

Yes. Look up DC1227 on scholar Google of course. First hit.

And remember, this is the same individual.

No give us the link!

PermeateFree said:

mollwollfumble said:

dv said:

moll: the chart you’ve shown indicates that the sapiens-neanderthal split occurred 99000 years ago, and the split with denisovians also occurred 99000 years ago.

No it doesn’t. The 99 is the bootstrap probability in percent. You know that.

> Yes dear. Any links you might throw our way?

Yes. Look up DC1227 on scholar Google of course. First hit.

And remember, this is the same individual.

No give us the link!

That is the link. Here is is again.

https://www.nature.com/articles/srep23559

mollwollfumble said:

PermeateFree said:

mollwollfumble said:

No it doesn’t. The 99 is the bootstrap probability in percent. You know that.

> Yes dear. Any links you might throw our way?

Yes. Look up DC1227 on scholar Google of course. First hit.

And remember, this is the same individual.

No give us the link!

That is the link. Here is is again.

https://www.nature.com/articles/srep23559

Thank you now we know what you are carrying on about. The chart you claim is the correct version indicates Homo sapiens, the Neanderthals and the Denisovans arose from a common ancestor at a similar time. The chart you claim is incorrect, also shows they evolved around the same time, it is just presented in a clearer fashion.

Here’s a wild possibility.

Up to all four of Denisovan, Sima de los Huesos, Homo heidelbergensis and Homo rhodesiensis may be exact synonyms. Think about it.

Neanderthal descended from that in Africa then migrated to Europe, and modern humans from the Neanderthals that stayed behind in Africa.

For starters, Sima de los Huesos has the appearance of Homo heidelbergensis and the genetics of Denisovan. Homo heidelbergensis and Homo rhodesiensis are considered identical by some (see for example Wikipedia) with a difference only in location of residence.

mollwollfumble said:

Here’s a wild possibility.

Up to all four of Denisovan, Sima de los Huesos, Homo heidelbergensis and Homo rhodesiensis may be exact synonyms. Think about it.

Neanderthal descended from that in Africa then migrated to Europe, and modern humans from the Neanderthals that stayed behind in Africa.

For starters, Sima de los Huesos has the appearance of Homo heidelbergensis and the genetics of Denisovan. Homo heidelbergensis and Homo rhodesiensis are considered identical by some (see for example Wikipedia) with a difference only in location of residence.

Nice and simple.

>>Both fossil and genetic evidence indicate that Neanderthals and modern humans (Homo sapiens) evolved from a common ancestor between 500,000 and 200,000 years ago. Neanderthals and modern humans belong to the same genus (Homo) and inhabited the same geographic areas in Asia for 30,000–50,000 years; genetic evidence indicate while they may have interbred with non-African modern humans, they are separate branches of the human family tree (separate species).

In fact, Neanderthals and modern humans may have had little direct interaction for tens of thousands of years until during one very cold period, modern humans spread across Europe.<<

http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/human-fossils/species/homo-neanderthalensis

“The Minister for getting electricity prices down, also to be known as the Minister for Energy, will Angus Taylor,” Mr Morrison said.

—
I reckon First Dog will have a ball with that.

mollwollfumble said:

Here’s a wild possibility.

Up to all four of Denisovan, Sima de los Huesos, Homo heidelbergensis and Homo rhodesiensis may be exact synonyms. Think about it.

Neanderthal descended from that in Africa then migrated to Europe, and modern humans from the Neanderthals that stayed behind in Africa.

For starters, Sima de los Huesos has the appearance of Homo heidelbergensis and the genetics of Denisovan. Homo heidelbergensis and Homo rhodesiensis are considered identical by some (see for example Wikipedia) with a difference only in location of residence.

This wild hypothesis is firming up. The dates match. And it’s now a five-fold identity.

Up to all five of Denisovan, Homo altai, Sima de los Huesos, Homo heidelbergensis and Homo rhodesiensis may be exact synonyms.

The following timeline of human ancestry comes from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_human_evolution , with extra dates from wikipedia articles about individual species and the date for the Chimp-Human split from Hallast et al. (2016) Genome research.

None of these is a guaranteed human ancestor, but most look likely.

25 Ma Proconsul africanus
15 Ma Separation from Gibbon
13 Ma Separation from Orangutan
13 Ma Pierolapithecus catalaunicus
10 Ma Separation from Gorilla
~8 Ma Ouranopithecus
~7 Ma Separation from Chimpanzee
~7 Ma Graecopithecus
~7 Ma Sahelanthropus tchadensis
~6 Ma Orrorin tugonensis
5.6 Ma Ardipithecus kadabba
4.4 Ma Ardipithecus ramidus (this species still had a brain the size of a Chimp’s)
3.9 to 2.9 Ma Australopithecus afarensis (ancestor of the australopithecines)
3.6 Ma The Laetoli footprints
3.5 to 3.3 Ma Kenyanthropus platyops
3 Ma Loss of body hair
2.5 to 1.5 Ma Homo habilis
2.12 Ma First evidence of humans outside Africa
1.9 to 0.5 Ma Homo Erectus (= Homo ergaster in Africa)
1.2 to 0.8 Ma Homo antecessor
0.8 to 0.3 Ma Homo heidelbergensis (= Homo rhodesiensis in Africa)
0.744 to 0.3 Ma Denisovan (= Homo altai)
0.45 Ma Split between Neanderthal and modern human
0.3 Ma to ~0.04 Ma Neanderthal in Eurasia
0.3 Ma to present Anatomically modern human
0.177 Ma First modern human out of Africa

The similarity of dates between Homo heidelbergensis and Denisovan is highly suggestive.