Date: 12/09/2018 14:30:27
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1274840
Subject: From stone age to modern age?

The Nacirema article and Rev D’s comment makes me wonder.

Just what is it that has dragged stone age man into the modern age? I don’t know. Here are some hyptheses:

Do you have a preference for any of these, or something else?

Reply Quote

Date: 12/09/2018 14:42:38
From: sibeen
ID: 1274844
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

mollwollfumble said:


The Nacirema article and Rev D’s comment makes me wonder.

Just what is it that has dragged stone age man into the modern age? I don’t know. Here are some hyptheses:

  • There isn’t a difference. We’re still mentally in the stone age.
  • Intoxicating drugs. These kill stone age tribes because it makes hunting impossible. Luckily, the same agricultural technology used to grow intoxicating drugs can also grow food.
  • The horse and horse shoe. Suddenly expands tribal ranges from 50 km to 1000 km.
  • Continued neoteny. Adult humans with the creativeness and vitality of child apes.
  • The invention of boredom. When bored, many modern humans will be creative.
  • Social services. Rather than older people being killed off because they are weak or infirm, they live on as repositories of useful knowledge.
  • The police. Removing fear from the general populace.
  • Specialization. Even in stone age cultures there are experts. Specialization releases experts from mundane tasks that others can do better. The first specialists were traders.
  • The middle class, and middle class morality and work ethic.
  • Durable water carriers. Many stone-age cultures don’t have them.
  • Non-military ambition. Primitive copies of Henry Ford.

Do you have a preference for any of these, or something else?

Beer – although it could come under the intoxicating drugs heading. There are theories that basically state that the growing of crops was originally for brewing and the bread bit came along later with better crop varieties.

Reply Quote

Date: 12/09/2018 14:49:34
From: AwesomeO
ID: 1274846
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

A Darwinian struggle for your tribe to be just that little bit stronger and more productive than the tribe over the hill, the value of, if not out right conquest but deterrence, and of course ideas propogate so it is a continuing effort.

Reply Quote

Date: 12/09/2018 14:52:53
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1274848
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

AwesomeO said:


A Darwinian struggle for your tribe to be just that little bit stronger and more productive than the tribe over the hill, the value of, if not out right conquest but deterrence, and of course ideas propogate so it is a continuing effort.

Trade and interaction.

Reply Quote

Date: 12/09/2018 14:54:10
From: Cymek
ID: 1274850
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

Accidental growing of discarded seeds and the realisation you can do it on a controlled large scale

Reply Quote

Date: 12/09/2018 15:00:12
From: Ian
ID: 1274852
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?
Reply Quote

Date: 12/09/2018 15:00:59
From: party_pants
ID: 1274853
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

The discovery that certain grasses had edible seeds that could be stored for later consumption, and that these stored seeds could be sown in the correct season to produce a similar crop next year.

The discovery that metals could be obtained from heating certain types of dirt.

Reply Quote

Date: 12/09/2018 15:05:22
From: Cymek
ID: 1274854
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

Ancient astronauts teaching us

Reply Quote

Date: 12/09/2018 15:08:51
From: roughbarked
ID: 1274856
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

I don’t get this thread. Who is taking the piss out of who here?

Reply Quote

Date: 12/09/2018 15:10:30
From: party_pants
ID: 1274857
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

Ian said:

  • Domestication of the wolf/dog

I don’t think so. While the domestication of the dog would be very useful for herders, they tend to be largely nomadic following the good grazing. I think the modern age is fundamentally based around being settled.

Reply Quote

Date: 12/09/2018 15:15:58
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1274858
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

party_pants said:


Ian said:
  • Domestication of the wolf/dog

I don’t think so. While the domestication of the dog would be very useful for herders, they tend to be largely nomadic following the good grazing. I think the modern age is fundamentally based around being settled.

Dogs were used for hunting long before the tending of stock.

Reply Quote

Date: 12/09/2018 15:17:18
From: Cymek
ID: 1274859
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

party_pants said:


Ian said:
  • Domestication of the wolf/dog

I don’t think so. While the domestication of the dog would be very useful for herders, they tend to be largely nomadic following the good grazing. I think the modern age is fundamentally based around being settled.

I also wonder why some peoples didn’t make the leap from stone age to builders of structures, farming, science, etc

Reply Quote

Date: 12/09/2018 15:18:18
From: party_pants
ID: 1274861
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

PermeateFree said:


party_pants said:

Ian said:
  • Domestication of the wolf/dog

I don’t think so. While the domestication of the dog would be very useful for herders, they tend to be largely nomadic following the good grazing. I think the modern age is fundamentally based around being settled.

Dogs were used for hunting long before the tending of stock.

Yes. But hunters tend to be nomadic too.

Reply Quote

Date: 12/09/2018 15:21:19
From: party_pants
ID: 1274862
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

Cymek said:


party_pants said:

Ian said:
  • Domestication of the wolf/dog

I don’t think so. While the domestication of the dog would be very useful for herders, they tend to be largely nomadic following the good grazing. I think the modern age is fundamentally based around being settled.

I also wonder why some peoples didn’t make the leap from stone age to builders of structures, farming, science, etc

At the risk of sounding deterministic, I think they needed to live in an area with suitable grasses or tubers first. Live in an area without them and you don’t get settlement.

Reply Quote

Date: 12/09/2018 15:31:04
From: Peak Warming Man
ID: 1274866
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

party_pants said:


Cymek said:

party_pants said:

I don’t think so. While the domestication of the dog would be very useful for herders, they tend to be largely nomadic following the good grazing. I think the modern age is fundamentally based around being settled.

I also wonder why some peoples didn’t make the leap from stone age to builders of structures, farming, science, etc

At the risk of sounding deterministic, I think they needed to live in an area with suitable grasses or tubers first. Live in an area without them and you don’t get settlement.

There was a big spark, something happened that greatly enhanced the knowledge of a few cultures and I think that spark was the written language, in a very short time the human pool of knowledge in a few cultures increased exponentially and what’s more because it was now a physical thing, it could be checked and corrected and corrected again.

Reply Quote

Date: 12/09/2018 15:36:39
From: Peak Warming Man
ID: 1274867
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

Peak Warming Man said:


party_pants said:

Cymek said:

I also wonder why some peoples didn’t make the leap from stone age to builders of structures, farming, science, etc

At the risk of sounding deterministic, I think they needed to live in an area with suitable grasses or tubers first. Live in an area without them and you don’t get settlement.

There was a big spark, something happened that greatly enhanced the knowledge of a few cultures and I think that spark was the written language, in a very short time the human pool of knowledge in a few cultures increased exponentially and what’s more because it was now a physical thing, it could be checked and corrected and corrected again.

Correct me if I’m wrong but I think that in Cymec’s submission there should be a full stop after etc.

Reply Quote

Date: 12/09/2018 15:37:08
From: Bogsnorkler
ID: 1274868
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

Reply Quote

Date: 12/09/2018 15:40:27
From: Cymek
ID: 1274869
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

The human races ability to create something and then continually improve on it is quite impressive.

Reply Quote

Date: 12/09/2018 15:55:40
From: Ian
ID: 1274878
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

party_pants said:


Ian said:
  • Domestication of the wolf/dog

I don’t think so. While the domestication of the dog would be very useful for herders, they tend to be largely nomadic following the good grazing. I think the modern age is fundamentally based around being settled.

The archaeological record and genetic analysis show the remains of the Bonn–Oberkassel dog buried beside humans 14,200 years ago to be the first undisputed dog, with disputed remains occurring 36,000 years ago. These dates imply that the earliest dogs arose in the time of human hunter-gatherers and not agriculturists.

-

From around 9500 BC, the eight Neolithic founder crops—emmer wheat, einkorn wheat, hulled barley, peas, lentils, bitter vetch, chick peas, and flax—were cultivated in the Levant.

Wiki

There are claims for 23,000 BPT

-

So yeah, sticks out like dog’s balls. Almost. Small balls.

Reply Quote

Date: 12/09/2018 16:01:41
From: Ian
ID: 1274879
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

Or intoxicating drugs

Reply Quote

Date: 12/09/2018 16:01:49
From: Cymek
ID: 1274880
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

Ian said:


party_pants said:

Ian said:
  • Domestication of the wolf/dog

I don’t think so. While the domestication of the dog would be very useful for herders, they tend to be largely nomadic following the good grazing. I think the modern age is fundamentally based around being settled.

The archaeological record and genetic analysis show the remains of the Bonn–Oberkassel dog buried beside humans 14,200 years ago to be the first undisputed dog, with disputed remains occurring 36,000 years ago. These dates imply that the earliest dogs arose in the time of human hunter-gatherers and not agriculturists.

-

From around 9500 BC, the eight Neolithic founder crops—emmer wheat, einkorn wheat, hulled barley, peas, lentils, bitter vetch, chick peas, and flax—were cultivated in the Levant.

Wiki

There are claims for 23,000 BPT

-

So yeah, sticks out like dog’s balls. Almost. Small balls.

Mutual arrangement (unsaid I imagine) between dog and hunter, dog might help flush out/chase down animals and human kills it and they share a meal

Reply Quote

Date: 12/09/2018 16:05:52
From: party_pants
ID: 1274883
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

Cymek said:


Ian said:

party_pants said:

I don’t think so. While the domestication of the dog would be very useful for herders, they tend to be largely nomadic following the good grazing. I think the modern age is fundamentally based around being settled.

The archaeological record and genetic analysis show the remains of the Bonn–Oberkassel dog buried beside humans 14,200 years ago to be the first undisputed dog, with disputed remains occurring 36,000 years ago. These dates imply that the earliest dogs arose in the time of human hunter-gatherers and not agriculturists.

-

From around 9500 BC, the eight Neolithic founder crops—emmer wheat, einkorn wheat, hulled barley, peas, lentils, bitter vetch, chick peas, and flax—were cultivated in the Levant.

Wiki

There are claims for 23,000 BPT

-

So yeah, sticks out like dog’s balls. Almost. Small balls.

Mutual arrangement (unsaid I imagine) between dog and hunter, dog might help flush out/chase down animals and human kills it and they share a meal

You’d imagine it was something like that.

Also that herding might have developed from a group of hunters following the same herd for an extended period, and chasing away other predators that might want to dine on it.

Reply Quote

Date: 12/09/2018 20:54:09
From: esselte
ID: 1274942
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

mollwollfumble said:

Just what is it that has dragged stone age man into the modern age?

The modern age is best distinguished by the existence of large, complex industrial civilisations. These were spawned from small, simple non-industrial civilisations.

Simple, non-industrial civilisations started independently in a few locations around the world.

Simple, non-industrial civilisations form where separate groups of pre-civilised/post-agrarian people live and are capable of abundant food production but where the region of liveable land is isolated and surrounded by inhospitable geography.

As the number of people living together in this isolated area increases (which it will, because of the abundant food production) they need to figure out a bunch of rules they can mutually agree on which will allow the different tribes to live in relative harmony with each other.

These rules bind disparate peoples, tribal identity begins to lose relevance.

Enforcement of the rules necessitate a ruler or ruling body. Proto-governments form.

The concept of simple civilisation is exported to other places which are not as constrained by their geography. The concept of simple civilisation expands to encompass very large areas of contiguous land and a very large number of people.

Maintaining rule requires the expansion of government and further codifying of the behaviour expected of civilised people.

Eventually a simple civilisation meets a geography where coal is very easy to mine and the Industrial Revolution happens.

We have pretty much been coasting from there.

Reply Quote

Date: 12/09/2018 20:59:21
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1274943
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

esselte said:


mollwollfumble said:

Just what is it that has dragged stone age man into the modern age?

The modern age is best distinguished by the existence of large, complex industrial civilisations. These were spawned from small, simple non-industrial civilisations.

Simple, non-industrial civilisations started independently in a few locations around the world.

Yes, it’s all down to civil engineering.

Reply Quote

Date: 12/09/2018 20:59:21
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1274944
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

esselte said:


mollwollfumble said:

Just what is it that has dragged stone age man into the modern age?

The modern age is best distinguished by the existence of large, complex industrial civilisations. These were spawned from small, simple non-industrial civilisations.

Simple, non-industrial civilisations started independently in a few locations around the world.

Yes, it’s all down to civil engineering.

Reply Quote

Date: 12/09/2018 21:29:04
From: roughbarked
ID: 1274948
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

esselte said:


mollwollfumble said:

Just what is it that has dragged stone age man into the modern age?

The modern age is best distinguished by the existence of large, complex industrial civilisations. These were spawned from small, simple non-industrial civilisations.

Simple, non-industrial civilisations started independently in a few locations around the world.

Simple, non-industrial civilisations form where separate groups of pre-civilised/post-agrarian people live and are capable of abundant food production but where the region of liveable land is isolated and surrounded by inhospitable geography.

As the number of people living together in this isolated area increases (which it will, because of the abundant food production) they need to figure out a bunch of rules they can mutually agree on which will allow the different tribes to live in relative harmony with each other.

These rules bind disparate peoples, tribal identity begins to lose relevance.

Enforcement of the rules necessitate a ruler or ruling body. Proto-governments form.

The concept of simple civilisation is exported to other places which are not as constrained by their geography. The concept of simple civilisation expands to encompass very large areas of contiguous land and a very large number of people.

Maintaining rule requires the expansion of government and further codifying of the behaviour expected of civilised people.

Eventually a simple civilisation meets a geography where coal is very easy to mine and the Industrial Revolution happens.

We have pretty much been coasting from there.

Stoners.
Wheat came later. Sago isn’t up to Cannabis as to advantages of what you can get out of ease of cultivation and harvest into all the other facets as any other food or fibre plant.

Reply Quote

Date: 12/09/2018 21:30:19
From: Witty Rejoinder
ID: 1274949
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

esselte said:

Eventually a simple civilisation meets a geography where coal is very easy to mine and the Industrial Revolution happens.

Not quite that simple. Countless civilisations developed the smelting of iron and the use of coal as fuel without attaining the impetus for an industrial revolution. Besides Song China, that smelted iron at a rate only equaled in Europe by 1800, before it was conquered by the Mongols, an IR has only arisen in one place, that being the Britain in the 1700s: and that was caused by a very specific set of circumstances. All industrialisation since has in effect been the gradual duplication of a process that started in Britain.

Reply Quote

Date: 12/09/2018 21:31:16
From: roughbarked
ID: 1274950
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

roughbarked said:


esselte said:

mollwollfumble said:

Just what is it that has dragged stone age man into the modern age?

The modern age is best distinguished by the existence of large, complex industrial civilisations. These were spawned from small, simple non-industrial civilisations.

Simple, non-industrial civilisations started independently in a few locations around the world.

Simple, non-industrial civilisations form where separate groups of pre-civilised/post-agrarian people live and are capable of abundant food production but where the region of liveable land is isolated and surrounded by inhospitable geography.

As the number of people living together in this isolated area increases (which it will, because of the abundant food production) they need to figure out a bunch of rules they can mutually agree on which will allow the different tribes to live in relative harmony with each other.

These rules bind disparate peoples, tribal identity begins to lose relevance.

Enforcement of the rules necessitate a ruler or ruling body. Proto-governments form.

The concept of simple civilisation is exported to other places which are not as constrained by their geography. The concept of simple civilisation expands to encompass very large areas of contiguous land and a very large number of people.

Maintaining rule requires the expansion of government and further codifying of the behaviour expected of civilised people.

Eventually a simple civilisation meets a geography where coal is very easy to mine and the Industrial Revolution happens.

We have pretty much been coasting from there.

Stoners.
Wheat came later. Sago isn’t up to Cannabis as to advantages of what you can get out of ease of cultivation and harvest into all the other facets as any other food or fibre plant.

You may all think otherwise but what we would call weeds today were the first plants we thought possible to cultivate.

Reply Quote

Date: 12/09/2018 21:32:47
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1274951
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

Am really enjoying lurking on this thread. Some great ideas here.

Reply Quote

Date: 12/09/2018 21:35:04
From: roughbarked
ID: 1274952
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

Witty Rejoinder said:


esselte said:

Eventually a simple civilisation meets a geography where coal is very easy to mine and the Industrial Revolution happens.

Not quite that simple. Countless civilisations developed the smelting of iron and the use of coal as fuel without attaining the impetus for an industrial revolution. Besides Song China, that smelted iron at a rate only equaled in Europe by 1800, before it was conquered by the Mongols, an IR has only arisen in one place, that being the Britain in the 1700s: and that was caused by a very specific set of circumstances. All industrialisation since has in effect been the gradual duplication of a process that started in Britain.

All fair points.

Reply Quote

Date: 12/09/2018 21:36:06
From: roughbarked
ID: 1274953
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

mollwollfumble said:


Am really enjoying lurking on this thread. Some great ideas here.

We would all probably appreciate or not. One of your lists here?

Reply Quote

Date: 12/09/2018 21:38:56
From: wookiemeister
ID: 1274954
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

emojis

mobile phone tones

steve jobs underpants

Reply Quote

Date: 12/09/2018 21:41:40
From: roughbarked
ID: 1274955
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

wookiemeister said:


emojis

mobile phone tones

steve jobs underpants

Are they any different?

Media may have changed from cave paintings of hard ons long washed away because they didn’t want to be recorded for all time, cannot be misread.

Reply Quote

Date: 13/09/2018 23:10:17
From: transition
ID: 1275655
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

perhaps knowingly entering into, variously, agreements

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 19:16:11
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1280962
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

I’ve always worried about the human technology problem that we need tools to make tools.

Knowing what we know now, how long would it take for humankind to get from stone age to modern age.

Two extreme opposite opinions would be:

What do you think?

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 19:18:21
From: party_pants
ID: 1280963
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

mollwollfumble said:


I’ve always worried about the human technology problem that we need tools to make tools.

Knowing what we know now, how long would it take for humankind to get from stone age to modern age.

Two extreme opposite opinions would be:

  • 10,000 years. It couldn’t be done in much less time than it originally took because of the need to spend all our time just finding food and fighting off tribal rivalries.
  • 10 years. It took Henry Ford just 9 years to build the River Rouge facility with the Dearborn Assembly Plant in Detroit, which turned rock (iron ore and coal) into complete cars and patrol boats. And just 7 years from Kennedy’s speech until a man was walking on the Moon.

What do you think?

A country should be able to transition from tin-pot backwards shit-hole to developed nation within 2 generations.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 19:19:01
From: AwesomeO
ID: 1280964
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

mollwollfumble said:


I’ve always worried about the human technology problem that we need tools to make tools.

Knowing what we know now, how long would it take for humankind to get from stone age to modern age.

Two extreme opposite opinions would be:

  • 10,000 years. It couldn’t be done in much less time than it originally took because of the need to spend all our time just finding food and fighting off tribal rivalries.
  • 10 years. It took Henry Ford just 9 years to build the River Rouge facility with the Dearborn Assembly Plant in Detroit, which turned rock (iron ore and coal) into complete cars and patrol boats. And just 7 years from Kennedy’s speech until a man was walking on the Moon.

What do you think?

The obvious thing, especially in the second example, would be a society able to spare excess or with an economic base sufficient to make a car plant worthwhile. Knowledge and technology alone are not enough.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 19:27:56
From: roughbarked
ID: 1280968
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

AwesomeO said:


mollwollfumble said:

I’ve always worried about the human technology problem that we need tools to make tools.

Knowing what we know now, how long would it take for humankind to get from stone age to modern age.

Two extreme opposite opinions would be:

  • 10,000 years. It couldn’t be done in much less time than it originally took because of the need to spend all our time just finding food and fighting off tribal rivalries.
  • 10 years. It took Henry Ford just 9 years to build the River Rouge facility with the Dearborn Assembly Plant in Detroit, which turned rock (iron ore and coal) into complete cars and patrol boats. And just 7 years from Kennedy’s speech until a man was walking on the Moon.

What do you think?

The obvious thing, especially in the second example, would be a society able to spare excess or with an economic base sufficient to make a car plant worthwhile. Knowledge and technology alone are not enough.

A cigarette lighter would be magic in the stone age. Though they already had flint, it took a lot of work to get a flame.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 20:27:26
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1281001
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

party_pants said:


mollwollfumble said:

I’ve always worried about the human technology problem that we need tools to make tools.

Knowing what we know now, how long would it take for humankind to get from stone age to modern age.

Two extreme opposite opinions would be:

  • 10,000 years. It couldn’t be done in much less time than it originally took because of the need to spend all our time just finding food and fighting off tribal rivalries.
  • 10 years. It took Henry Ford just 9 years to build the River Rouge facility with the Dearborn Assembly Plant in Detroit, which turned rock (iron ore and coal) into complete cars and patrol boats. And just 7 years from Kennedy’s speech until a man was walking on the Moon.

What do you think?

A country should be able to transition from tin-pot backwards shit-hole to developed nation within 2 generations.

Ta. Have any country in mind?

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 20:28:54
From: roughbarked
ID: 1281003
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

mollwollfumble said:


party_pants said:

mollwollfumble said:

I’ve always worried about the human technology problem that we need tools to make tools.

Knowing what we know now, how long would it take for humankind to get from stone age to modern age.

Two extreme opposite opinions would be:

  • 10,000 years. It couldn’t be done in much less time than it originally took because of the need to spend all our time just finding food and fighting off tribal rivalries.
  • 10 years. It took Henry Ford just 9 years to build the River Rouge facility with the Dearborn Assembly Plant in Detroit, which turned rock (iron ore and coal) into complete cars and patrol boats. And just 7 years from Kennedy’s speech until a man was walking on the Moon.

What do you think?

A country should be able to transition from tin-pot backwards shit-hole to developed nation within 2 generations.

Ta. Have any country in mind?

Terra nullius.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 20:30:16
From: party_pants
ID: 1281005
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

mollwollfumble said:


party_pants said:

mollwollfumble said:

I’ve always worried about the human technology problem that we need tools to make tools.

Knowing what we know now, how long would it take for humankind to get from stone age to modern age.

Two extreme opposite opinions would be:

  • 10,000 years. It couldn’t be done in much less time than it originally took because of the need to spend all our time just finding food and fighting off tribal rivalries.
  • 10 years. It took Henry Ford just 9 years to build the River Rouge facility with the Dearborn Assembly Plant in Detroit, which turned rock (iron ore and coal) into complete cars and patrol boats. And just 7 years from Kennedy’s speech until a man was walking on the Moon.

What do you think?

A country should be able to transition from tin-pot backwards shit-hole to developed nation within 2 generations.

Ta. Have any country in mind?

China. Malaysia.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 20:31:24
From: AwesomeO
ID: 1281006
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

mollwollfumble said:


party_pants said:

mollwollfumble said:

I’ve always worried about the human technology problem that we need tools to make tools.

Knowing what we know now, how long would it take for humankind to get from stone age to modern age.

Two extreme opposite opinions would be:

  • 10,000 years. It couldn’t be done in much less time than it originally took because of the need to spend all our time just finding food and fighting off tribal rivalries.
  • 10 years. It took Henry Ford just 9 years to build the River Rouge facility with the Dearborn Assembly Plant in Detroit, which turned rock (iron ore and coal) into complete cars and patrol boats. And just 7 years from Kennedy’s speech until a man was walking on the Moon.

What do you think?

A country should be able to transition from tin-pot backwards shit-hole to developed nation within 2 generations.

Ta. Have any country in mind?

Shah Pavlavi of Iran tried to do it in one generation but that didn’t work so well.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 20:39:58
From: Witty Rejoinder
ID: 1281012
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

mollwollfumble said:


party_pants said:

mollwollfumble said:

I’ve always worried about the human technology problem that we need tools to make tools.

Knowing what we know now, how long would it take for humankind to get from stone age to modern age.

Two extreme opposite opinions would be:

  • 10,000 years. It couldn’t be done in much less time than it originally took because of the need to spend all our time just finding food and fighting off tribal rivalries.
  • 10 years. It took Henry Ford just 9 years to build the River Rouge facility with the Dearborn Assembly Plant in Detroit, which turned rock (iron ore and coal) into complete cars and patrol boats. And just 7 years from Kennedy’s speech until a man was walking on the Moon.

What do you think?

A country should be able to transition from tin-pot backwards shit-hole to developed nation within 2 generations.

Ta. Have any country in mind?

China in 1978 had basically regressed to a preindustrial society besides the trains.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 20:41:41
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1281014
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

party_pants said:


mollwollfumble said:

party_pants said:

A country should be able to transition from tin-pot backwards shit-hole to developed nation within 2 generations.

Ta. Have any country in mind?

China. Malaysia.

Goodo. Malaysia has a better space program than Australia these days. Vietnam and Korea and also going better than Australia. I could even add Japan to that.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 20:43:02
From: roughbarked
ID: 1281016
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

mollwollfumble said:


party_pants said:

mollwollfumble said:

Ta. Have any country in mind?

China. Malaysia.

Goodo. Malaysia has a better space program than Australia these days. Vietnam and Korea and also going better than Australia. I could even add Japan to that.

Yet Australia beat them all into space.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 20:48:10
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1281026
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

roughbarked said:


mollwollfumble said:

party_pants said:

China. Malaysia.

Goodo. Malaysia has a better space program than Australia these days. Vietnam and Korea and also going better than Australia. I could even add Japan to that.

Yet Australia beat them all into space.

My personal cynic says: “There are three types of nations. There are underdeveloped nations. There are developing nations. And there are degenerating nations”.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 20:48:44
From: party_pants
ID: 1281027
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

China now has more kilometres of high speed (over 250 km/h) rail track than every other nation combined.

Hard to find many English language docos about it on YouTube though, plenty of them seem to be produced by state-run media and even with an English translation of the script they still sound a bit propaganda-ish.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 20:51:05
From: AwesomeO
ID: 1281029
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

mollwollfumble said:


roughbarked said:

mollwollfumble said:

Goodo. Malaysia has a better space program than Australia these days. Vietnam and Korea and also going better than Australia. I could even add Japan to that.

Yet Australia beat them all into space.

My personal cynic says: “There are three types of nations. There are underdeveloped nations. There are developing nations. And there are degenerating nations”.

Might also be that without the expense of a space industry at that time Australia was getting most of the benefits via partnering and from Britain and America.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 20:52:27
From: roughbarked
ID: 1281031
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

AwesomeO said:


mollwollfumble said:

roughbarked said:

Yet Australia beat them all into space.

My personal cynic says: “There are three types of nations. There are underdeveloped nations. There are developing nations. And there are degenerating nations”.

Might also be that without the expense of a space industry at that time Australia was getting most of the benefits via partnering and from Britain and America.

It surely was that.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 20:59:55
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1281043
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

AwesomeO said:


mollwollfumble said:

party_pants said:

A country should be able to transition from tin-pot backwards shit-hole to developed nation within 2 generations.

Ta. Have any country in mind?

Shah Pavlavi of Iran tried to do it in one generation but that didn’t work so well.

He did?

Which reminds me. The United Arab Emirates hasn’t done so badly. It was only founded in 1971. At the start (19th century) the area was already at the “pirate” cultural stage, like Somalia is now. Total economic disaster throughout the 1930s only turned around with the first oil export in 1962.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:01:26
From: party_pants
ID: 1281046
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

AwesomeO said:


mollwollfumble said:

roughbarked said:

Yet Australia beat them all into space.

My personal cynic says: “There are three types of nations. There are underdeveloped nations. There are developing nations. And there are degenerating nations”.

Might also be that without the expense of a space industry at that time Australia was getting most of the benefits via partnering and from Britain and America.

I suspect much of our interest in space technology was because the Australian governments at the time had ambitions of becoming a nuclear power. Right up until the early 1970s when the NPT came along. After nukes were off table funding for space industry declined.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:02:45
From: roughbarked
ID: 1281049
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

party_pants said:


AwesomeO said:

mollwollfumble said:

My personal cynic says: “There are three types of nations. There are underdeveloped nations. There are developing nations. And there are degenerating nations”.

Might also be that without the expense of a space industry at that time Australia was getting most of the benefits via partnering and from Britain and America.

I suspect much of our interest in space technology was because the Australian governments at the time had ambitions of becoming a nuclear power. Right up until the early 1970s when the NPT came along. After nukes were off table funding for space industry declined.

Conservatives.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:03:07
From: AwesomeO
ID: 1281050
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

mollwollfumble said:


AwesomeO said:

mollwollfumble said:

Ta. Have any country in mind?

Shah Pavlavi of Iran tried to do it in one generation but that didn’t work so well.

He did?

Which reminds me. The United Arab Emirates hasn’t done so badly. It was only founded in 1971. At the start (19th century) the area was already at the “pirate” cultural stage, like Somalia is now. Total economic disaster throughout the 1930s only turned around with the first oil export in 1962.

He wanted to change it to a modern technological and industrial society within his lifetime, he was aware that unlike Saudi Arabia his oil reserves had a much shorter lifespan, he was also genuine about getting rid of the religious influences and via his wife enhancing the role and having equality for women.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:04:43
From: AwesomeO
ID: 1281052
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

party_pants said:


AwesomeO said:

mollwollfumble said:

My personal cynic says: “There are three types of nations. There are underdeveloped nations. There are developing nations. And there are degenerating nations”.

Might also be that without the expense of a space industry at that time Australia was getting most of the benefits via partnering and from Britain and America.

I suspect much of our interest in space technology was because the Australian governments at the time had ambitions of becoming a nuclear power. Right up until the early 1970s when the NPT came along. After nukes were off table funding for space industry declined.

The F-111 were equipped for not with and if required we would have been given some nukes.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:05:01
From: roughbarked
ID: 1281054
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

AwesomeO said:


mollwollfumble said:

AwesomeO said:

Shah Pavlavi of Iran tried to do it in one generation but that didn’t work so well.

He did?

Which reminds me. The United Arab Emirates hasn’t done so badly. It was only founded in 1971. At the start (19th century) the area was already at the “pirate” cultural stage, like Somalia is now. Total economic disaster throughout the 1930s only turned around with the first oil export in 1962.

He wanted to change it to a modern technological and industrial society within his lifetime, he was aware that unlike Saudi Arabia his oil reserves had a much shorter lifespan, he was also genuine about getting rid of the religious influences and via his wife enhancing the role and having equality for women.

Too bad Islam didn’t follow his and his wife’s ideals.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:05:39
From: captain_spalding
ID: 1281055
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

AwesomeO said:

He wanted to change it to a modern technological and industrial society within his lifetime, he was aware that unlike Saudi Arabia his oil reserves had a much shorter lifespan, he was also genuine about getting rid of the religious influences and via his wife enhancing the role and having equality for women.

He certainly made sure that Iran had a secret police that most Communist nations would have envied.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:06:59
From: AwesomeO
ID: 1281057
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

captain_spalding said:


AwesomeO said:

He wanted to change it to a modern technological and industrial society within his lifetime, he was aware that unlike Saudi Arabia his oil reserves had a much shorter lifespan, he was also genuine about getting rid of the religious influences and via his wife enhancing the role and having equality for women.

He certainly made sure that Iran had a secret police that most Communist nations would have envied.

Yeah, the SAVAK, but then again, in the Middle East most of them do, it’s a dangerous part of the world.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:07:05
From: Witty Rejoinder
ID: 1281058
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

roughbarked said:


AwesomeO said:

mollwollfumble said:

He did?

Which reminds me. The United Arab Emirates hasn’t done so badly. It was only founded in 1971. At the start (19th century) the area was already at the “pirate” cultural stage, like Somalia is now. Total economic disaster throughout the 1930s only turned around with the first oil export in 1962.

He wanted to change it to a modern technological and industrial society within his lifetime, he was aware that unlike Saudi Arabia his oil reserves had a much shorter lifespan, he was also genuine about getting rid of the religious influences and via his wife enhancing the role and having equality for women.

Too bad Islam didn’t follow his and his wife’s ideals.

Wasn’t the first attempt. Ataturk did it successfully in Turkey although there has been a bit of disquiet of late.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:07:16
From: captain_spalding
ID: 1281059
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

AwesomeO said:


party_pants said:

AwesomeO said:

Might also be that without the expense of a space industry at that time Australia was getting most of the benefits via partnering and from Britain and America.

I suspect much of our interest in space technology was because the Australian governments at the time had ambitions of becoming a nuclear power. Right up until the early 1970s when the NPT came along. After nukes were off table funding for space industry declined.

The F-111 were equipped for not with and if required we would have been given some nukes.

A-4 Skyhawks were able to carry nuclear weapons years before the Long Noses arrived. And they were air-to-air refuelling when the RAAF was just dreaming about it.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:12:27
From: AwesomeO
ID: 1281061
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

As is usual in that part of the world, with Royal families rubbing shoulders with despots and dictators, some states offering secret support to Israel as a counterbalance and the conflicts with OPEC about raising prices which for petro economies where power is often by subsiding goods for consumers and price changes affect that, traditional rivalries between Iran and Iraq, Kuwait and the smaller states trying to keep them all off balance, and all of them are busy sponsoring revolutionaries in each other’s countries police states are pretty normal.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:12:48
From: captain_spalding
ID: 1281062
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

‘Billy Slater is granted the chance of a fairy tale finish to his rugby league career, with the Melbourne Storm great cleared to play in Sunday’s NRL grand final after avoiding suspension for a shoulder charge at a marathon judiciary hearing.’ – ABC News

Now we can all sleep peacefully in our beds.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:13:15
From: captain_spalding
ID: 1281063
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

AwesomeO said:


As is usual in that part of the world, with Royal families rubbing shoulders with despots and dictators, some states offering secret support to Israel as a counterbalance and the conflicts with OPEC about raising prices which for petro economies where power is often by subsiding goods for consumers and price changes affect that, traditional rivalries between Iran and Iraq, Kuwait and the smaller states trying to keep them all off balance, and all of them are busy sponsoring revolutionaries in each other’s countries police states are pretty normal.

It’s all part of a rich tapestry.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:13:58
From: roughbarked
ID: 1281064
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

AwesomeO said:


As is usual in that part of the world, with Royal families rubbing shoulders with despots and dictators, some states offering secret support to Israel as a counterbalance and the conflicts with OPEC about raising prices which for petro economies where power is often by subsiding goods for consumers and price changes affect that, traditional rivalries between Iran and Iraq, Kuwait and the smaller states trying to keep them all off balance, and all of them are busy sponsoring revolutionaries in each other’s countries police states are pretty normal.

yep.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:14:12
From: AwesomeO
ID: 1281065
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

captain_spalding said:


AwesomeO said:

As is usual in that part of the world, with Royal families rubbing shoulders with despots and dictators, some states offering secret support to Israel as a counterbalance and the conflicts with OPEC about raising prices which for petro economies where power is often by subsiding goods for consumers and price changes affect that, traditional rivalries between Iran and Iraq, Kuwait and the smaller states trying to keep them all off balance, and all of them are busy sponsoring revolutionaries in each other’s countries police states are pretty normal.

It’s all part of a rich tapestry.

I forgot to mention the superpower blocs.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:14:35
From: captain_spalding
ID: 1281066
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

AwesomeO said:


captain_spalding said:

AwesomeO said:

As is usual in that part of the world, with Royal families rubbing shoulders with despots and dictators, some states offering secret support to Israel as a counterbalance and the conflicts with OPEC about raising prices which for petro economies where power is often by subsiding goods for consumers and price changes affect that, traditional rivalries between Iran and Iraq, Kuwait and the smaller states trying to keep them all off balance, and all of them are busy sponsoring revolutionaries in each other’s countries police states are pretty normal.

It’s all part of a rich tapestry.

I forgot to mention the superpower blocs.

we took them as read.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:14:44
From: roughbarked
ID: 1281067
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

captain_spalding said:


‘Billy Slater is granted the chance of a fairy tale finish to his rugby league career, with the Melbourne Storm great cleared to play in Sunday’s NRL grand final after avoiding suspension for a shoulder charge at a marathon judiciary hearing.’ – ABC News

Now we can all sleep peacefully in our beds.

They should have made an example and jailed him for assault.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:14:59
From: party_pants
ID: 1281068
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

captain_spalding said:


AwesomeO said:

party_pants said:

I suspect much of our interest in space technology was because the Australian governments at the time had ambitions of becoming a nuclear power. Right up until the early 1970s when the NPT came along. After nukes were off table funding for space industry declined.

The F-111 were equipped for not with and if required we would have been given some nukes.

A-4 Skyhawks were able to carry nuclear weapons years before the Long Noses arrived. And they were air-to-air refuelling when the RAAF was just dreaming about it.

back in the old days when Australia had an aircraft carrier :)

I have often wondered how well a new built version of the Skyhawk (or similar approved) with modern engines, electronics and some components redesigned in composites would go. Would be fairly low risk from a technology POV, and might be cheap enough to produce in some numbers.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:15:33
From: captain_spalding
ID: 1281069
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

roughbarked said:


captain_spalding said:

‘Billy Slater is granted the chance of a fairy tale finish to his rugby league career, with the Melbourne Storm great cleared to play in Sunday’s NRL grand final after avoiding suspension for a shoulder charge at a marathon judiciary hearing.’ – ABC News

Now we can all sleep peacefully in our beds.

They should have made an example and jailed him for assault.

What penalty do i get for posting in the wrong thread?

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:16:26
From: roughbarked
ID: 1281070
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

captain_spalding said:


roughbarked said:

captain_spalding said:

‘Billy Slater is granted the chance of a fairy tale finish to his rugby league career, with the Melbourne Storm great cleared to play in Sunday’s NRL grand final after avoiding suspension for a shoulder charge at a marathon judiciary hearing.’ – ABC News

Now we can all sleep peacefully in our beds.

They should have made an example and jailed him for assault.

What penalty do i get for posting in the wrong thread?

kick yourself.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:17:26
From: captain_spalding
ID: 1281071
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

For a very brief time in the mid-1950s, Australia had three aircraft carriers – Melbourne, Sydney, and Vengeance.

An upgraded A-4 would do very well indeed these days. They’re fabulous little planes.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:17:58
From: captain_spalding
ID: 1281072
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

roughbarked said:

What penalty do i get for posting in the wrong thread?

kick yourself.

Done.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:18:52
From: party_pants
ID: 1281073
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

captain_spalding said:


For a very brief time in the mid-1950s, Australia had three aircraft carriers – Melbourne, Sydney, and Vengeance.

An upgraded A-4 would do very well indeed these days. They’re fabulous little planes.

Some are even still flying.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:21:23
From: captain_spalding
ID: 1281075
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

party_pants said:


captain_spalding said:

For a very brief time in the mid-1950s, Australia had three aircraft carriers – Melbourne, Sydney, and Vengeance.

An upgraded A-4 would do very well indeed these days. They’re fabulous little planes.

Some are even still flying.

Some ex-RAN A-4s still fly in the US with a firm that provides ‘opposition’ for training the USAF and USN. They’re the preferred opponents because they’re very damn hard to shoot down, especially with skilled pilots in them.

When one A-4 ‘aggressor’ pilot was asked what he’d like to use instead of his A-4, he answered ‘an upgraded A-4’.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:21:30
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1281076
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

Witty Rejoinder said:


roughbarked said:

AwesomeO said:

He wanted to change it to a modern technological and industrial society within his lifetime, he was aware that unlike Saudi Arabia his oil reserves had a much shorter lifespan, he was also genuine about getting rid of the religious influences and via his wife enhancing the role and having equality for women.

Too bad Islam didn’t follow his and his wife’s ideals.

Wasn’t the first attempt. Ataturk did it successfully in Turkey although there has been a bit of disquiet of late.

I’m hoping, fingers seriously crossed, that Nigeria is on the way up. By 1999 it had sunk about as low as any country could go. 2001 wasn’t much better, with communal violence killing hundreds and displacing thousands of people. And even in May 2006, some 150 to 200 people died in an explosion due to clandestine drilling into an oil pipeline. “The primary population still survives on less than $2 USD per day”.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:22:14
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1281078
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

captain_spalding said:


roughbarked said:

captain_spalding said:

‘Billy Slater is granted the chance of a fairy tale finish to his rugby league career, with the Melbourne Storm great cleared to play in Sunday’s NRL grand final after avoiding suspension for a shoulder charge at a marathon judiciary hearing.’ – ABC News

Now we can all sleep peacefully in our beds.

They should have made an example and jailed him for assault.

What penalty do i get for posting in the wrong thread?

Deification

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:22:46
From: captain_spalding
ID: 1281079
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

mollwollfumble said:

What penalty do i get for posting in the wrong thread?

Deification

I shall be a benevolent god.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:23:21
From: roughbarked
ID: 1281080
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

mollwollfumble said:


Witty Rejoinder said:

roughbarked said:

Too bad Islam didn’t follow his and his wife’s ideals.

Wasn’t the first attempt. Ataturk did it successfully in Turkey although there has been a bit of disquiet of late.

I’m hoping, fingers seriously crossed, that Nigeria is on the way up. By 1999 it had sunk about as low as any country could go. 2001 wasn’t much better, with communal violence killing hundreds and displacing thousands of people. And even in May 2006, some 150 to 200 people died in an explosion due to clandestine drilling into an oil pipeline. “The primary population still survives on less than $2 USD per day”.

In such places, I saw people riding motorbikes with heaps of full jerrycans piled up on their heads, mobile petrol bombs.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:23:45
From: party_pants
ID: 1281081
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

captain_spalding said:


party_pants said:

captain_spalding said:

For a very brief time in the mid-1950s, Australia had three aircraft carriers – Melbourne, Sydney, and Vengeance.

An upgraded A-4 would do very well indeed these days. They’re fabulous little planes.

Some are even still flying.

Some ex-RAN A-4s still fly in the US with a firm that provides ‘opposition’ for training the USAF and USN. They’re the preferred opponents because they’re very damn hard to shoot down, especially with skilled pilots in them.

When one A-4 ‘aggressor’ pilot was asked what he’d like to use instead of his A-4, he answered ‘an upgraded A-4’.

yeah. I know of the company. I’d love for something like that in Australia, but I guess there would be too much red tape getting approvals.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:23:50
From: roughbarked
ID: 1281082
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

captain_spalding said:


mollwollfumble said:

What penalty do i get for posting in the wrong thread?

Deification

I shall be a benevolent god.

Thank Christ for that.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:24:29
From: roughbarked
ID: 1281084
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

party_pants said:


captain_spalding said:

party_pants said:

Some are even still flying.

Some ex-RAN A-4s still fly in the US with a firm that provides ‘opposition’ for training the USAF and USN. They’re the preferred opponents because they’re very damn hard to shoot down, especially with skilled pilots in them.

When one A-4 ‘aggressor’ pilot was asked what he’d like to use instead of his A-4, he answered ‘an upgraded A-4’.

yeah. I know of the company. I’d love for something like that in Australia, but I guess there would be too much red tape getting approvals.

Only requires a doer at the top.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:25:17
From: captain_spalding
ID: 1281087
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

roughbarked said:


party_pants said:

captain_spalding said:

Some ex-RAN A-4s still fly in the US with a firm that provides ‘opposition’ for training the USAF and USN. They’re the preferred opponents because they’re very damn hard to shoot down, especially with skilled pilots in them.

When one A-4 ‘aggressor’ pilot was asked what he’d like to use instead of his A-4, he answered ‘an upgraded A-4’.

yeah. I know of the company. I’d love for something like that in Australia, but I guess there would be too much red tape getting approvals.

Only requires a doer at the top.

If we could convince someone in Canberra that it has to do with au pair girls…

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:26:56
From: sibeen
ID: 1281089
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

Witty Rejoinder said:


roughbarked said:

AwesomeO said:

He wanted to change it to a modern technological and industrial society within his lifetime, he was aware that unlike Saudi Arabia his oil reserves had a much shorter lifespan, he was also genuine about getting rid of the religious influences and via his wife enhancing the role and having equality for women.

Too bad Islam didn’t follow his and his wife’s ideals.

Wasn’t the first attempt. Ataturk did it successfully in Turkey although there has been a bit of disquiet of late.

Makes me feel for a lot of the Turks, that does. I spent a short while there in 2000, although only in the Western parts around Constantinople Istanbul, loved the country and the people. Sure there was quite a few mosques gabbering out unlistenable shit at all hours, but there was also some fantastic bars and night life. Turks who were purely secular and for whom Ataturk was a hero. Now days they are pulling his statues down. The religion of peace is nearly guaranteed to fuck it right up.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:27:33
From: party_pants
ID: 1281091
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

roughbarked said:


party_pants said:

captain_spalding said:

Some ex-RAN A-4s still fly in the US with a firm that provides ‘opposition’ for training the USAF and USN. They’re the preferred opponents because they’re very damn hard to shoot down, especially with skilled pilots in them.

When one A-4 ‘aggressor’ pilot was asked what he’d like to use instead of his A-4, he answered ‘an upgraded A-4’.

yeah. I know of the company. I’d love for something like that in Australia, but I guess there would be too much red tape getting approvals.

Only requires a doer at the top.

Having finally achieved victory in stripping every other branch of the right to operate fixed-wing aircraft I doubt the RAAF are going to allow a private commercial operator to start flying warbirds for military training contracts.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:27:35
From: Peak Warming Man
ID: 1281092
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

“We fight a war to restore to a disobedient, forgetful world… the laws and commands of the Prophet Mohammed… blessings and peace be upon him… whose instrument on Earth I am. Exalt ye not that men are dead, since more must die tomorrow. My beloveds, in a vision… the Prophet Mohammed has instructed me. Let mountain and desert tremble. Let cities shudder, and let the fat and the rich… and the corrupt in far places mark this moment… and turn in fear of all those miracles to come!
And let none in all Islam, from this victorious hour… believe I am other than the Expected One… the true Mahdi.”

I think the 1966 script writers might have had a vision.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:28:51
From: captain_spalding
ID: 1281093
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

party_pants said:


roughbarked said:

party_pants said:

yeah. I know of the company. I’d love for something like that in Australia, but I guess there would be too much red tape getting approvals.

Only requires a doer at the top.

Having finally achieved victory in stripping every other branch of the right to operate fixed-wing aircraft I doubt the RAAF are going to allow a private commercial operator to start flying warbirds for military training contracts.

‘If it’s fixed wing, it’s ours’ – engraved on every RAAFie’s heart.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:29:36
From: Witty Rejoinder
ID: 1281094
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

party_pants said:


captain_spalding said:

party_pants said:

Some are even still flying.

Some ex-RAN A-4s still fly in the US with a firm that provides ‘opposition’ for training the USAF and USN. They’re the preferred opponents because they’re very damn hard to shoot down, especially with skilled pilots in them.

When one A-4 ‘aggressor’ pilot was asked what he’d like to use instead of his A-4, he answered ‘an upgraded A-4’.

yeah. I know of the company. I’d love for something like that in Australia, but I guess there would be too much red tape getting approvals.

Are there still companies in WA where you get to fly in jet fighter aircraft? There used to be. Nothing like that in Victoria.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:29:59
From: roughbarked
ID: 1281095
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

party_pants said:


roughbarked said:

party_pants said:

yeah. I know of the company. I’d love for something like that in Australia, but I guess there would be too much red tape getting approvals.

Only requires a doer at the top.

Having finally achieved victory in stripping every other branch of the right to operate fixed-wing aircraft I doubt the RAAF are going to allow a private commercial operator to start flying warbirds for military training contracts.

I think you missed what I meant. They can be told.

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Date: 25/09/2018 21:30:19
From: sibeen
ID: 1281096
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

captain_spalding said:


party_pants said:

roughbarked said:

Only requires a doer at the top.

Having finally achieved victory in stripping every other branch of the right to operate fixed-wing aircraft I doubt the RAAF are going to allow a private commercial operator to start flying warbirds for military training contracts.

‘If it’s fixed wing, it’s ours’ – engraved on every RAAFie’s heart.

I suspect that it is more “if it flies then it’s ours”, but they’ve decided to take baby steps.

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Date: 25/09/2018 21:30:38
From: Peak Warming Man
ID: 1281097
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

sibeen said:


Witty Rejoinder said:

roughbarked said:

Too bad Islam didn’t follow his and his wife’s ideals.

Wasn’t the first attempt. Ataturk did it successfully in Turkey although there has been a bit of disquiet of late.

Makes me feel for a lot of the Turks, that does. I spent a short while there in 2000, although only in the Western parts around Constantinople Istanbul, loved the country and the people. Sure there was quite a few mosques gabbering out unlistenable shit at all hours, but there was also some fantastic bars and night life. Turks who were purely secular and for whom Ataturk was a hero. Now days they are pulling his statues down. The religion of peace is nearly guaranteed to fuck it right up.

Yep Ataturk was a man ahead of his time or maybe for his time.
I’ll have to find a biography of him.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:30:55
From: roughbarked
ID: 1281098
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

Peak Warming Man said:


“We fight a war to restore to a disobedient, forgetful world… the laws and commands of the Prophet Mohammed… blessings and peace be upon him… whose instrument on Earth I am. Exalt ye not that men are dead, since more must die tomorrow. My beloveds, in a vision… the Prophet Mohammed has instructed me. Let mountain and desert tremble. Let cities shudder, and let the fat and the rich… and the corrupt in far places mark this moment… and turn in fear of all those miracles to come!
And let none in all Islam, from this victorious hour… believe I am other than the Expected One… the true Mahdi.”

I think the 1966 script writers might have had a vision.

Misled. Muhammed was the last of the prophets.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:31:50
From: roughbarked
ID: 1281099
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

Peak Warming Man said:


sibeen said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

Wasn’t the first attempt. Ataturk did it successfully in Turkey although there has been a bit of disquiet of late.

Makes me feel for a lot of the Turks, that does. I spent a short while there in 2000, although only in the Western parts around Constantinople Istanbul, loved the country and the people. Sure there was quite a few mosques gabbering out unlistenable shit at all hours, but there was also some fantastic bars and night life. Turks who were purely secular and for whom Ataturk was a hero. Now days they are pulling his statues down. The religion of peace is nearly guaranteed to fuck it right up.

Yep Ataturk was a man ahead of his time or maybe for his time.
I’ll have to find a biography of him.

Indeed.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:33:17
From: captain_spalding
ID: 1281100
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

roughbarked said:

I think you missed what I meant. They can be told.

Don’t underestimate the RAAF.

Despite other countries planning to operate F-35s from exactly the type of ship we have (Adelaide and Canberra), the RAAF mounted an astonishing campaign in Canberra, haranguing anyone who they could corner anywhere about how F-35s could not possibly operate from those ships. no way. Can’t be done. Don’t even think about it. Absurd notion.

It worked. No-one in Canberra is game to admit the idea exists.

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Date: 25/09/2018 21:34:23
From: roughbarked
ID: 1281101
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

captain_spalding said:


roughbarked said:

I think you missed what I meant. They can be told.

Don’t underestimate the RAAF.

Despite other countries planning to operate F-35s from exactly the type of ship we have (Adelaide and Canberra), the RAAF mounted an astonishing campaign in Canberra, haranguing anyone who they could corner anywhere about how F-35s could not possibly operate from those ships. no way. Can’t be done. Don’t even think about it. Absurd notion.

It worked. No-one in Canberra is game to admit the idea exists.

The person holding the chair doesn’t ever want to be unseated.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:36:50
From: party_pants
ID: 1281103
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

Witty Rejoinder said:


party_pants said:

captain_spalding said:

Some ex-RAN A-4s still fly in the US with a firm that provides ‘opposition’ for training the USAF and USN. They’re the preferred opponents because they’re very damn hard to shoot down, especially with skilled pilots in them.

When one A-4 ‘aggressor’ pilot was asked what he’d like to use instead of his A-4, he answered ‘an upgraded A-4’.

yeah. I know of the company. I’d love for something like that in Australia, but I guess there would be too much red tape getting approvals.

Are there still companies in WA where you get to fly in jet fighter aircraft? There used to be. Nothing like that in Victoria.

Not that I know of. I hear there are some in NSW and QLD that fly the old Czech L-39 Albatross jet trainers (1970s era), so they might be closer to you than me.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:46:20
From: Peak Warming Man
ID: 1281106
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

captain_spalding said:


party_pants said:

captain_spalding said:

For a very brief time in the mid-1950s, Australia had three aircraft carriers – Melbourne, Sydney, and Vengeance.

An upgraded A-4 would do very well indeed these days. They’re fabulous little planes.

Some are even still flying.

Some ex-RAN A-4s still fly in the US with a firm that provides ‘opposition’ for training the USAF and USN. They’re the preferred opponents because they’re very damn hard to shoot down, especially with skilled pilots in them.

When one A-4 ‘aggressor’ pilot was asked what he’d like to use instead of his A-4, he answered ‘an upgraded A-4’.

The A-4 didn’t fare too well against the Harriers in 1982.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 21:52:57
From: roughbarked
ID: 1281109
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

Peak Warming Man said:


captain_spalding said:

party_pants said:

Some are even still flying.

Some ex-RAN A-4s still fly in the US with a firm that provides ‘opposition’ for training the USAF and USN. They’re the preferred opponents because they’re very damn hard to shoot down, especially with skilled pilots in them.

When one A-4 ‘aggressor’ pilot was asked what he’d like to use instead of his A-4, he answered ‘an upgraded A-4’.

The A-4 didn’t fare too well against the Harriers in 1982.

Harriers were always awesome.

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 22:00:35
From: dv
ID: 1281113
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

It was thousands of events: discoveries, social changes. There’s no point in trying to put it down to a small number of things.

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Date: 25/09/2018 22:01:25
From: roughbarked
ID: 1281114
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

dv said:


It was thousands of events: discoveries, social changes. There’s no point in trying to put it down to a small number of things.

commonsense does prevail!

Reply Quote

Date: 25/09/2018 22:03:00
From: party_pants
ID: 1281115
Subject: re: From stone age to modern age?

Peak Warming Man said:


captain_spalding said:

party_pants said:

Some are even still flying.

Some ex-RAN A-4s still fly in the US with a firm that provides ‘opposition’ for training the USAF and USN. They’re the preferred opponents because they’re very damn hard to shoot down, especially with skilled pilots in them.

When one A-4 ‘aggressor’ pilot was asked what he’d like to use instead of his A-4, he answered ‘an upgraded A-4’.

The A-4 didn’t fare too well against the Harriers in 1982.

Not much did. They were generally on bombing missions though and not configured for air combat. Quite a few got shot down by SAMs fired from RN ships. Mostly because the Argies had only limited stocks of Exocet missiles, so they did a lot of traditional bombing type missions (i.e. fly right in and over the target).

I imagine nowadays you could get a dozen different types of anti-ship missiles that would make the Exocet look like a museum piece.

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