Date: 1/10/2018 19:16:40
From: sarahs mum
ID: 1283329
Subject: Which cities will sink into the sea first?

Better scientific understanding of global warming makes the discussion about its geopolitical consequences increasingly urgent. Put simply, there are going to be winners and losers: hotter places and colder places; wetter places and drier places; and, yes, places that disappear under the sea. But the reality is a bit more complicated. In particular, are sea levels going up or down? The answer seems clear when you consider that Antarctica has lost 3 trillion tonnes of ice in the last 25 years.

Yet to understand what is going on we first have to recognise that the Earth isn’t solid. It started life as a ball of hot liquid about 4.5bn years ago and our planet has been cooling ever since. Right at the centre of the Earth is a solid core of metal made of iron and nickel at a temperature of approximately 5,000C. But this core is surrounded by an approximately 2,000km-thick ocean of molten metal, again mostly iron and nickel. Surrounding this is a layer of rock called the mantle that is between 500C to 900C, and at these red-hot temperatures the rock behaves like a solid over short periods of time (seconds, hours, and days) but like a liquid over longer time periods (months to years) – so the rock flows, even though it is not molten. On top of the fluid mantle floats the crust, which is like the skin of the Earth. It is a relatively thin layer of cool rock that is between 30 to 100km thick and contains all the mountains, forests, rivers, seas, continents – our world.

Since the crust is floating on the fluid mantle, if you increase its weight by, for instance, building up kilometres of ice on top of it, then it sinks further into the mantle. This is what has happened to the landmasses of Antarctica and Greenland, which are both covered in 2km to 3km of thick ice. If global warming were to cause all that ice to melt, then the sea level of the oceans would rise by more than 50 metres, submerging all the coastal cities of the world and making hundreds of millions of people homeless. This seems obvious. What is less obvious is how it might unfold.

If the whole ice sheet covering Antarctica melts, the release of its weight will destress the rocks below, which, because they float on the mantle, will bob up. This is called post-glacial rebound. The position with Greenland is similar: the crust below it is being weighed down by the 3 million trillion litres of water held in the ice sheet, and if that ice sheet all melts then parts of the North American tectonic landmass will rise up. If the resulting increase in the height of the continent is bigger than the sea level rise, then major flooding may be avoided. Working out which scenario is more likely is vitally important for future generations, because one of these results will start to play out if global warming intensifies.

What we know is this: the global mean sea level has risen 20cm since the beginning of the 20th century. Some of this has been owing to the water thermally expanding as the oceans have got hotter – since hotter liquids take up more volume (this is how liquid thermometers work). Some of the rise in sea level has been due to the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets melting, and some due to other glaciers melting. The rising sea levels are global: they affect everyone with a coastline, from tiny Pacific islands that would be entirely submerged to a huge country such as Bangladesh, for which a one-metre rise in sea levels would result in nearly a fifth of the country being submerged and 30 million people being displaced. But while rising sea levels affect everyone, the post-glacial rebound affects only the coasts connected to parts of the Earth’s crust weighed down by the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets.

It is hard to overestimate the importance of this issue, and we badly need more data and scientific understanding of these liquid processes. A limited number of specialised satellites, such as CryoSat, GRACE and ICESat-2 – just launched by Nasa – are being used to monitor ice thickness and to develop models of post-glacial rebound. What the science predicts is that if the ice melts first in the northern hemisphere, then Greenland may bounce up higher than the average sea level, as will parts of North America, and so sea levels there may initially go down. If the opposite happens, and the Antarctic ice melts before the Greenland ice sheet, then it is the southern tectonic plates that will bounce up first and the whole of North America’s eastern coast will go under water first. The big unknowns are how quick the ice will go in each location, and how fast the post-glacial rebound will be.

We need to get a better understanding of these processes fast, because if we don’t it may be too late to avert catastrophe. These issues don’t dominate news agendas but they should. Recently the French environment minister resigned, citing the president’s lack of progress and urgency on climate change issues. In doing so, he voiced the concern of the whole scientific community about world leaders – we need a step change in governmental action. But there’s the rub: not all governments feel urgent about it. And why? Perhaps it’s because, as the issue of post-glacial rebound shows, there will be winners and losers from global warming. For instance, countries such as Russia will be less affected by sea level rises, and may benefit from a more temperate climate. In contrast, the US may not only suffer from new drought zones, but its low-lying eastern coast is threatened by the accelerating loss of Antarctic ice. As the 21st century continues and the ice continues to melt, it will become clearer which countries have a greater incentive to mitigate climate change, and the resulting geopolitics has the potential to drive division and conflict.

Mark Miodownik is the author of Liquid: The Delightful and Dangerous Substances That Flow Through Our Lives, which is short-listed for the Royal Society Book prize

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/01/cities-sink-sea-first-earth-submerge-coastline

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Date: 1/10/2018 19:42:06
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1283350
Subject: re: Which cities will sink into the sea first?

Updating your property portfolio sm.

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Date: 1/10/2018 19:50:05
From: sarahs mum
ID: 1283361
Subject: re: Which cities will sink into the sea first?

PermeateFree said:


Updating your property portfolio sm.

I can’t afford real estate in the soon to be very wet zone.

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Date: 1/10/2018 19:51:19
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1283362
Subject: re: Which cities will sink into the sea first?

sarahs mum said:


PermeateFree said:

Updating your property portfolio sm.

I can’t afford real estate in the soon to be very wet zone.

But you soon will.

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Date: 1/10/2018 19:58:15
From: AwesomeO
ID: 1283376
Subject: re: Which cities will sink into the sea first?

Long before they sink into the sea they would have become deserted and uninhabited, property prices would go down but the places would become uninsurable. Everything recyclable would have been long removed. The city in its place, depending on why it was there in the first place would over a few hundred years organically relocate itself. Many cities would disappear, the economics of its existance already dissapeared.

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Date: 1/10/2018 19:59:53
From: sarahs mum
ID: 1283382
Subject: re: Which cities will sink into the sea first?

AwesomeO said:


Long before they sink into the sea they would have become deserted and uninhabited, property prices would go down but the places would become uninsurable. Everything recyclable would have been long removed. The city in its place, depending on why it was there in the first place would over a few hundred years organically relocate itself. Many cities would disappear, the economics of its existance already dissapeared.

Unless one of those bubbles burst.

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Date: 1/10/2018 20:01:09
From: AwesomeO
ID: 1283384
Subject: re: Which cities will sink into the sea first?

sarahs mum said:


AwesomeO said:

Long before they sink into the sea they would have become deserted and uninhabited, property prices would go down but the places would become uninsurable. Everything recyclable would have been long removed. The city in its place, depending on why it was there in the first place would over a few hundred years organically relocate itself. Many cities would disappear, the economics of its existance already dissapeared.

Unless one of those bubbles burst.

What bubbles?

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Date: 1/10/2018 20:09:32
From: sarahs mum
ID: 1283393
Subject: re: Which cities will sink into the sea first?

AwesomeO said:


sarahs mum said:

AwesomeO said:

Long before they sink into the sea they would have become deserted and uninhabited, property prices would go down but the places would become uninsurable. Everything recyclable would have been long removed. The city in its place, depending on why it was there in the first place would over a few hundred years organically relocate itself. Many cities would disappear, the economics of its existance already dissapeared.

Unless one of those bubbles burst.

What bubbles?

Ice sheets with lakes on top. Like the big one in Canada that raised sea levels fast back then?

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Date: 2/10/2018 10:13:32
From: Cymek
ID: 1283494
Subject: re: Which cities will sink into the sea first?

If all the ice melts what sort of effect would it have on the salinity of the oceans ?

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Date: 2/10/2018 10:26:47
From: Peak Warming Man
ID: 1283495
Subject: re: Which cities will sink into the sea first?

In 1988 they were predicting that the Maldives would be mostly underwater in 30 years time.
However they were saying the 200,000 population may have to leave as early as 1992 because they would run out of fresh water.

Last week the Maldives completed the expansion of their airport to cope with the tourist boom that are flocking to these pristine islands.

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Date: 2/10/2018 10:27:36
From: Cymek
ID: 1283496
Subject: re: Which cities will sink into the sea first?

For instance, countries such as Russia will be less affected by sea level rises, and may benefit from a more temperate climate. In contrast, the US may not only suffer from new drought zones, but its low-lying eastern coast is threatened by the accelerating loss of Antarctic ice. As the 21st century continues and the ice continues to melt, it will become clearer which countries have a greater incentive to mitigate climate change, and the resulting geopolitics has the potential to drive division and conflict.

This bit is interesting and you could formulate an intricate and somewhat plausible conspiracy.
The Russians interfered in the US presidential election to get Trump elected and as he’s overturning various climate change mitigation policies/actions he’s helping to speed up global warming. The ice melts and floods US coastal cities which means the USA is no longer able to police the world or protect its overseas interests as its too busy trying to cope with all the damage

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Date: 2/10/2018 10:35:29
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1283497
Subject: re: Which cities will sink into the sea first?

Peak Warming Man said:


In 1988 they were predicting that the Maldives would be mostly underwater in 30 years time.
However they were saying the 200,000 population may have to leave as early as 1992 because they would run out of fresh water.

Last week the Maldives completed the expansion of their airport to cope with the tourist boom that are flocking to these pristine islands.

Who are “they”, and did they say “would” or “could”?

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Date: 2/10/2018 10:39:54
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1283498
Subject: re: Which cities will sink into the sea first?

It would be nice to think that PWM would not use an obviously unreliable source such as:

https://dailycaller.com/2018/09/21/maldives-global-warming-sea-level/

but reading the article, I suspect he did.

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Date: 2/10/2018 10:41:50
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1283499
Subject: re: Which cities will sink into the sea first?

The Rev Dodgson said:


It would be nice to think that PWM would not use an obviously unreliable source such as:

https://dailycaller.com/2018/09/21/maldives-global-warming-sea-level/

but reading the article, I suspect he did.

From TATE:

Controversies

Climate change denial

The Daily Caller has published a number of articles that dispute the scientific consensus on climate change. In 2017, The Daily Caller published a story saying that a “peer-reviewed study” by “two scientists and a veteran statistician” found that recent years have not been the warmest ever. The alleged “study” was a PDF file on a WordPress blog, and was not peer-reviewed or published in a scientific journal. That same year, The Daily Caller uncritically published a bogus Daily Mail story which claimed that the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) manipulated data to make climate change appear worse; at the same time, legitimate news outlets debunked the Daily Mail story. That same year, The Daily Caller published a story claiming that a study found no evidence of accelerating temperatures over a 23-year period, which climate scientists described as a misleading story. In 2016, The Daily Caller published a story claiming that climate scientist Michael Mann (director of the Earth System Science Center at Pennsylvania State University) had asserted that data was unnecessary to measure climate change; Mann described the story as “egregiously false”. In 2015, The Daily Caller wrote that NOAA “fiddle” with data when the agency published a report concluding that there was no global warming hiatus.

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Date: 2/10/2018 10:43:23
From: Cymek
ID: 1283500
Subject: re: Which cities will sink into the sea first?

Peak Warming Man said:


In 1988 they were predicting that the Maldives would be mostly underwater in 30 years time.
However they were saying the 200,000 population may have to leave as early as 1992 because they would run out of fresh water.

Last week the Maldives completed the expansion of their airport to cope with the tourist boom that are flocking to these pristine islands.

How long does pristine islands and tourism boom work

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Date: 2/10/2018 11:25:30
From: Peak Warming Man
ID: 1283501
Subject: re: Which cities will sink into the sea first?

Canberra Times 1988.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/102074798

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Date: 2/10/2018 11:53:04
From: Witty Rejoinder
ID: 1283502
Subject: re: Which cities will sink into the sea first?

Seems PWM is taking his cues direct from Today’s Andrew Bolt:

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/andrew-bolt/dud-prediction-maldives-sunk-by-2018/news-story/8f757767b561865f005d475aa6e43ae5

It would be nice if PWM attributed his talking points.

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Date: 2/10/2018 12:03:44
From: Cymek
ID: 1283504
Subject: re: Which cities will sink into the sea first?

Even if global warming is a complete lie, we have numerous others reasons to clean up our act, we are doing lots of other damage to the planet, its flora and fauna (including our selves) plus pushing it’s ability to cope with our demands

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Date: 2/10/2018 12:36:34
From: sarahs mum
ID: 1283509
Subject: re: Which cities will sink into the sea first?

Cymek said:


Even if global warming is a complete lie, we have numerous others reasons to clean up our act, we are doing lots of other damage to the planet, its flora and fauna (including our selves) plus pushing it’s ability to cope with our demands

How can we figure that global warming is a complete lie?

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Date: 2/10/2018 12:39:01
From: Cymek
ID: 1283511
Subject: re: Which cities will sink into the sea first?

sarahs mum said:


Cymek said:

Even if global warming is a complete lie, we have numerous others reasons to clean up our act, we are doing lots of other damage to the planet, its flora and fauna (including our selves) plus pushing it’s ability to cope with our demands

How can we figure that global warming is a complete lie?

I don’t/it isn’t, its a counter argument to those that minimise it, that even if was a complete lie we have other reasons to change.

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Date: 2/10/2018 13:04:18
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1283520
Subject: re: Which cities will sink into the sea first?

Peak Warming Man said:


Canberra Times 1988.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/102074798

Yes, another misleading article, with poor journalism.

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Date: 2/10/2018 13:08:12
From: Peak Warming Man
ID: 1283521
Subject: re: Which cities will sink into the sea first?

The Rev Dodgson said:


Peak Warming Man said:

Canberra Times 1988.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/102074798

Yes, another misleading article, with poor journalism.

Yes and yet a lot of gullible people believed it.

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Date: 2/10/2018 13:10:06
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1283522
Subject: re: Which cities will sink into the sea first?

The Rev Dodgson said:


Peak Warming Man said:

Canberra Times 1988.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/102074798

Yes, another misleading article, with poor journalism.

NASA tells me that the actual average sea level rise over the last 30 years is about 80 mm. An upper bound projection, made 30 years ago, of 200 to 300 mm over 20 to 40 years seems perfectly reasonable to me.

It is after all standard practice to design for a reasonable estimate of the worst case, rather than the estimated most likely case.

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Date: 2/10/2018 13:12:30
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1283523
Subject: re: Which cities will sink into the sea first?

Peak Warming Man said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Canberra Times 1988.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/102074798

Yes, another misleading article, with poor journalism.

Yes and yet a lot of gullible people believed it.

As I said, the actual projected worst case predictions were reasonable.

It was the suggestion that 200 -300 mm rise would totally drown the islands that I thought poor journalism.

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Date: 2/10/2018 13:13:36
From: Cymek
ID: 1283524
Subject: re: Which cities will sink into the sea first?

Peak Warming Man said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Canberra Times 1988.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/102074798

Yes, another misleading article, with poor journalism.

Yes and yet a lot of gullible people believed it.

Similar to those religious tomes

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Date: 2/10/2018 13:15:43
From: Cymek
ID: 1283525
Subject: re: Which cities will sink into the sea first?

Ocean level rises would create new ecosystems for ocean life so that could be a plus

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Date: 4/10/2018 16:42:43
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1284244
Subject: re: Which cities will sink into the sea first?

Does this image help? Isostatic rebound.

It doesn’t show either consolidation of sediments (eg. Venice, New Orleans) or movements due to faults in the Earth’s crust (eg. around the Mediterranean and Port Royal in Jamaica).

There are a dozen or so underwater cities in the Mediterranean. A substantial portion of the city of Alexandria for starters, more than a few along the the southern coast of Turkey.

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Date: 4/10/2018 17:07:04
From: sarahs mum
ID: 1284264
Subject: re: Which cities will sink into the sea first?

mollwollfumble said:


Does this image help? Isostatic rebound.

It doesn’t show either consolidation of sediments (eg. Venice, New Orleans) or movements due to faults in the Earth’s crust (eg. around the Mediterranean and Port Royal in Jamaica).

There are a dozen or so underwater cities in the Mediterranean. A substantial portion of the city of Alexandria for starters, more than a few along the the southern coast of Turkey.


So..the area where there is the ice in North America is on the way up?

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