There have been many very old shipwrecks discovered in the Black Sea. As you all know, the water below about 200m depth is anoxic and thus preserves organic remains like wood. There are some wonderful wrecks down there…

Unfortunately these are all very deep down and so beyond the realm of any recreational diver. So I can’t help thinking: “wouldn’t it be great if one of these wrecks could be lifted off the bottom and carefully placed into a specially prepared holding tank on land for further study and display”.

But how to do it? Could it be possible?

Assume money is not a problem, how could it be done?

Something like

boring equipment to dig underneath the boats

then assemble a cage around it using underwater robots

then lift slowly using multiple lines and using underwater cameras check at various points

Tau.Neutrino said:

Something like

boring equipment to dig underneath the boats

then assemble a cage around it using underwater robots

then lift slowly using multiple lines and using underwater cameras check at various points

perhaps a specially built ship with cranes that can raise the boat straight into the ship

underwater chambers attached to the cage that can be filled with air to help raise it

etc

Instead of boring equipment maybe use compressed air or a water jet to remove sand dirt under the boat.

Tau.Neutrino said:

Instead of boring equipment maybe use compressed air or a water jet to remove sand dirt under the boat.

i think it would need some cradle underneath the boat. Probably with a good deal of the surrounding sand to support the wreck on its journey.

The Mary Rose was raised using a cage

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Rose

Sunken WWI German Battleship Raised: SMS Hindenburg (1924)

party_pants said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Instead of boring equipment maybe use compressed air or a water jet to remove sand dirt under the boat.

i think it would need some cradle underneath the boat. Probably with a good deal of the surrounding sand to support the wreck on its journey.

Yes.

party_pants said:

There have been many very old shipwrecks discovered in the Black Sea. As you all know, the water below about 200m depth is anoxic and thus preserves organic remains like wood. There are some wonderful wrecks down there…

Unfortunately these are all very deep down and so beyond the realm of any recreational diver. So I can’t help thinking: “wouldn’t it be great if one of these wrecks could be lifted off the bottom and carefully placed into a specially prepared holding tank on land for further study and display”.

But how to do it? Could it be possible?

Assume money is not a problem, how could it be done?

I’d be inclined to take it apart piece by piece, keep in an anoxic environment until preservative can be impregnated, and then reassemble.

From memory, that’s how the Osberg Viking ship ended up in Oslo. Admittedly, that was not underwater to start with.

http://irisharchaeology.ie/2012/09/the-oseberg-viking-ship-burial/

It doesn’t appear to be all that old, clinker built maybe.

Peak Warming Man said:

It doesn’t appear to be all that old, clinker built maybe.

Looks like two vessels illustrated and they both look old. One has a paddle-type rudder and the bigger one has a high stern superstructure.

Bubblecar said:

Peak Warming Man said:

It doesn’t appear to be all that old, clinker built maybe.

Looks like two vessels illustrated and they both look old. One has a paddle-type rudder and the bigger one has a high stern superstructure.

They are three different ones. There have been about 60 discovered so far, from various ages ranging from late bronze age to Byzantine.

party_pants said:

Bubblecar said:

Peak Warming Man said:

It doesn’t appear to be all that old, clinker built maybe.

Looks like two vessels illustrated and they both look old. One has a paddle-type rudder and the bigger one has a high stern superstructure.

They are three different ones. There have been about 60 discovered so far, from various ages ranging from late bronze age to Byzantine.

The reason I thought the last two boats were the same vessel is due to exactly the same paddle rudder in the snaps. But presumably they’re two boats of the same exact type.

Bubblecar said:

party_pants said:

Bubblecar said:

Looks like two vessels illustrated and they both look old. One has a paddle-type rudder and the bigger one has a high stern superstructure.

They are three different ones. There have been about 60 discovered so far, from various ages ranging from late bronze age to Byzantine.

The reason I thought the last two boats were the same vessel is due to exactly the same paddle rudder in the snaps. But presumably they’re two boats of the same exact type.

No, looking at it carefully, the last two snaps are of the same boat. It has a paddle-type rudder attached to each side near the stern.

The first ship, with the high quarterdeck, dates from the 13th-14th century. And had a crew of around 20. It’s the most complete form of such an early vessel that’s yet been found:

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/12/science/shipwrecks-black-sea-archaeology.html

The medieval ship lay more than a half-mile down at the bottom of the Black Sea, its masts, timbers and planking undisturbed in the darkness for seven or eight centuries. Lack of oxygen in the icy depths had ruled out the usual riot of creatures that feast on sunken wood.

This fall, a team of explorers lowered a robot on a long tether, lit up the wreck with bright lights and took thousands of high-resolution photos. A computer then merged the images into a detailed portrait.

Archaeologists date the discovery to the 13th or 14th century, opening a new window on forerunners of the 15th- and 16th-century sailing vessels that discovered the New World, including those of Columbus. This medieval ship probably served the Venetian empire, which had Black Sea outposts.

Never before had this type of ship been found in such complete form. The breakthrough was the quarterdeck, from which the captain would have directed a crew of perhaps 20 sailors.

“That’s never been seen archaeologically,” said Rodrigo Pacheco-Ruiz, an expedition member at the Center for Maritime Archaeology at the University of Southampton, in Britain. “We couldn’t believe our eyes.”

Another Black Sea wreck. A later, Ottoman era vessel with intact ropes, fancy carving etc.

party_pants said:

Assume money is not a problem, how could it be done?

drain the Black Sea first.

JudgeMental said:

party_pants said:

Assume money is not a problem, how could it be done?

drain the Black Sea first.

The robot submarine might find a plug down there somewhere.

JudgeMental said:

party_pants said:

Assume money is not a problem, how could it be done?

drain the Black Sea first.

The Don has spoken!

Bubblecar said:

The first ship, with the high quarterdeck, dates from the 13th-14th century. And had a crew of around 20. It’s the most complete form of such an early vessel that’s yet been found:

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/12/science/shipwrecks-black-sea-archaeology.html

The medieval ship lay more than a half-mile down at the bottom of the Black Sea, its masts, timbers and planking undisturbed in the darkness for seven or eight centuries. Lack of oxygen in the icy depths had ruled out the usual riot of creatures that feast on sunken wood.

This fall, a team of explorers lowered a robot on a long tether, lit up the wreck with bright lights and took thousands of high-resolution photos. A computer then merged the images into a detailed portrait.

Archaeologists date the discovery to the 13th or 14th century, opening a new window on forerunners of the 15th- and 16th-century sailing vessels that discovered the New World, including those of Columbus. This medieval ship probably served the Venetian empire, which had Black Sea outposts.

Never before had this type of ship been found in such complete form. The breakthrough was the quarterdeck, from which the captain would have directed a crew of perhaps 20 sailors.

“That’s never been seen archaeologically,” said Rodrigo Pacheco-Ruiz, an expedition member at the Center for Maritime Archaeology at the University of Southampton, in Britain. “We couldn’t believe our eyes.”

That’s sesriourly interesting. We know more about the iron age than we do about the 13th and 14th centuries. The 13th century is best known as hosting the second half of the Crusades. The 14th century for … for the black death and the hundred years war.

mollwollfumble said:

I’d be inclined to take it apart piece by piece, keep in an anoxic environment until preservative can be impregnated, and then reassemble.

From memory, that’s how the Osberg Viking ship ended up in Oslo. Admittedly, that was not underwater to start with.

http://irisharchaeology.ie/2012/09/the-oseberg-viking-ship-burial/

I guess that would be the sensible option

JudgeMental said:

party_pants said:

Assume money is not a problem, how could it be done?

drain the Black Sea first.

That might not be physically possible. Or if it was it might start a war if attempted.

Bubblecar said:

Another Black Sea wreck. A later, Ottoman era vessel with intact ropes, fancy carving etc.

Yeah, the state of preservation makes it so astonishing. There was one expedition found 60 wrecks and they weren’t even looking for them, they were trying to map ancient shorelines to establish how and when the Black Sea filled after the last Ice Age.

party_pants said:

JudgeMental said:

party_pants said:

Assume money is not a problem, how could it be done?

drain the Black Sea first.

That might not be physically possible. Or if it was it might start a war if attempted.

But…science!

party_pants said:

Bubblecar said:

Another Black Sea wreck. A later, Ottoman era vessel with intact ropes, fancy carving etc.

Yeah, the state of preservation makes it so astonishing. There was one expedition found 60 wrecks and they weren’t even looking for them, they were trying to map ancient shorelines to establish how and when the Black Sea filled after the last Ice Age.

Could be some very valuable things down there. Imagine if the medieval one(s) were carrying things like musical instruments, furniture etc in the hold and it’s still there largely intact.

Bubblecar said:

party_pants said:

Bubblecar said:

Another Black Sea wreck. A later, Ottoman era vessel with intact ropes, fancy carving etc.

Yeah, the state of preservation makes it so astonishing. There was one expedition found 60 wrecks and they weren’t even looking for them, they were trying to map ancient shorelines to establish how and when the Black Sea filled after the last Ice Age.

Could be some very valuable things down there. Imagine if the medieval one(s) were carrying things like musical instruments, furniture etc in the hold and it’s still there largely intact.

Antikythera mechanisms and other wonderful stuff. Imagine how many Stradivarius violins, also. All those export cargoes lost, only to be found again.

Michael V said:

Bubblecar said:

party_pants said:

Yeah, the state of preservation makes it so astonishing. There was one expedition found 60 wrecks and they weren’t even looking for them, they were trying to map ancient shorelines to establish how and when the Black Sea filled after the last Ice Age.

Could be some very valuable things down there. Imagine if the medieval one(s) were carrying things like musical instruments, furniture etc in the hold and it’s still there largely intact.

Antikythera mechanisms and other wonderful stuff. Imagine how many Stradivarius violins, also. All those export cargoes lost, only to be found again.

And those ropes could be sold on ebay.

Peak Warming Man said:

Michael V said:

Bubblecar said:

Could be some very valuable things down there. Imagine if the medieval one(s) were carrying things like musical instruments, furniture etc in the hold and it’s still there largely intact.

Antikythera mechanisms and other wonderful stuff. Imagine how many Stradivarius violins, also. All those export cargoes lost, only to be found again.

And those ropes could be sold on ebay.

can get a lot of money for old rope.

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

JudgeMental said:

drain the Black Sea first.

That might not be physically possible. Or if it was it might start a war if attempted.

But…science!

Maybe you could have a go at convincing Old Mate Putin it would be a good idea to strand his Black Sea fleet in order to salvage a couple of medieval lutes. I don’t think i could do it in English, let alone Russian.

Peak Warming Man said:

Michael V said:

Bubblecar said:

Could be some very valuable things down there. Imagine if the medieval one(s) were carrying things like musical instruments, furniture etc in the hold and it’s still there largely intact.

Antikythera mechanisms and other wonderful stuff. Imagine how many Stradivarius violins, also. All those export cargoes lost, only to be found again.

And those ropes could be sold on ebay.

Gosh! A real businessman in our midst. I honestly didn’t think of that. I suppose we could cut up all the wood into small pieces and tie labels on certifying them as genuine and sell millions of them for $10 each.

I have a piece of Japanese midget submarine with a label. I also have a crown of a Merlin piston made into an ashtray, signed by Churchill.

JudgeMental said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Michael V said:

Antikythera mechanisms and other wonderful stuff. Imagine how many Stradivarius violins, also. All those export cargoes lost, only to be found again.

And those ropes could be sold on ebay.

can get a lot of money for old rope.

Hemp?

mollwollfumble said:

JudgeMental said:

Peak Warming Man said:

And those ropes could be sold on ebay.

can get a lot of money for old rope.

Hemp?

https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/money-for-old-rope.html

Might be simpler to build a tank around it…

dv said:

Might be simpler to build a tank around it…

You mean caisson? If so, then you more the protection of an anoxic environment?

mollwollfumble said:

dv said:

Might be simpler to build a tank around it…

You mean caisson? If so, then you more the protection of an anoxic environment?

> more

lose. Spell corrector actiing stupid again. lose. lose.

The anoxic layer is below 200 m. Some of these wrecks are much farther down. I Don’t think building caissons is an option.

Archaeologists have found what they believe to be the world’s oldest intact shipwreck at the bottom of the Black Sea where it appears to have lain undisturbed for more than 2,400 years.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/oct/23/oldest-intact-shipwreck-thought-to-be-ancient-greek-discovered-at-bottom-of-black-sea

sibeen said:

Archaeologists have found what they believe to be the world’s oldest intact shipwreck at the bottom of the Black Sea where it appears to have lain undisturbed for more than 2,400 years.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/oct/23/oldest-intact-shipwreck-thought-to-be-ancient-greek-discovered-at-bottom-of-black-sea

The next paragraph stuffs up a bit:

“The five metre (75ft) vessel, thought to be ancient Greek, was discovered with its mast, rudders and rowing benches all present and correct just over a mile below the surface. A lack of oxygen at that depth preserved it, the researchers said”

sibeen said:

sibeen said:

Archaeologists have found what they believe to be the world’s oldest intact shipwreck at the bottom of the Black Sea where it appears to have lain undisturbed for more than 2,400 years.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/oct/23/oldest-intact-shipwreck-thought-to-be-ancient-greek-discovered-at-bottom-of-black-sea

The next paragraph stuffs up a bit:

“The five metre (75ft) vessel, thought to be ancient Greek, was discovered with its mast, rudders and rowing benches all present and correct just over a mile below the surface. A lack of oxygen at that depth preserved it, the researchers said”

There’s lots of free smartphone apps for converting units :)
Mine gives 75 ft as 22.86m.

I can’t wait to see the 2 hour documentary film, hopefully they plop it on YouTube soon.

sibeen said:

sibeen said:

Archaeologists have found what they believe to be the world’s oldest intact shipwreck at the bottom of the Black Sea where it appears to have lain undisturbed for more than 2,400 years.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/oct/23/oldest-intact-shipwreck-thought-to-be-ancient-greek-discovered-at-bottom-of-black-sea

The next paragraph stuffs up a bit:

“The five metre (75ft) vessel, thought to be ancient Greek, was discovered with its mast, rudders and rowing benches all present and correct just over a mile below the surface. A lack of oxygen at that depth preserved it, the researchers said”

Those ancient Greek metres were really big.