I started wondering which is worst in Australia?

• illegal cigarettes and other tobacco.
• illegal alcohol.
• illegal gambling.

Then I realised that all three are not because the activity is illegal, but only because of tax avoidance. Then I started to realise how bloody high these taxes can be.

Cigarettes are taxed at a tax rate equivalent to 343% or more (tax divided by production cost) with a further 12.5 increase in tax every year.

“In May 2016, it is estimated that possibly 14.3 percent of tobacco consumed in Australia was bought through the black market”.

Tax on alcohol in Australia is up to $50 per litre. These taxes are increasing. Pure alcohol costs 90 cents per litre to produce in bulk.

Tax on petrol is 41.2 cents per litre plus GST. On a production cost of under $1 per litre.

>>Cigarettes are taxed at a tax rate equivalent to 343% or more (tax divided by production cost) with a further 12.5 increase in tax every year.<<

I see the premature ageing and poor health effects of cigarettes a lot in my work. They probably need even higher taxing to come near covering the health costs to society. No-one in a Western society born after about 1970(?) could not have been told of the detrimental health effects. I’ll give people older than that the benefit of the doubt. So it has been a choice to take that risk for a long time now.

I just checked. “Smoking is a health hazard” went on the packs in Australia in 1973. The more stark ones were the early 1980s.

mollwollfumble said:

I started wondering which is worst in Australia?

• illegal cigarettes and other tobacco.
• illegal alcohol.
• illegal gambling.

Then I realised that all three are not because the activity is illegal, but only because of tax avoidance. Then I started to realise how bloody high these taxes can be.

Cigarettes are taxed at a tax rate equivalent to 343% or more (tax divided by production cost) with a further 12.5 increase in tax every year.

“In May 2016, it is estimated that possibly 14.3 percent of tobacco consumed in Australia was bought through the black market”.

Tax on alcohol in Australia is up to $50 per litre. These taxes are increasing. Pure alcohol costs 90 cents per litre to produce in bulk.

Tax on petrol is 41.2 cents per litre plus GST. On a production cost of under $1 per litre.

where are the gambling stats? and why have you included petrol?

Imagine the expansion of persons of interest, the scope of, those potentially interested in illegal tobacco in the future.

If, say, in 2025 tobacco is so expensive most people couldn’t reasonably be expected to afford the legal product, and that the product should have entirely gone out of production (or distribution/sale), a collapse from a lack of demand, then anyone smoking is a person of interest.

You might see your neighbor smoking a cigarette in 2025, or smell it downwind, and be inclined to report it to crimestoppers, anonymously online of course, consistent with the new courage. Add that he’s got something like tomato plants growing, which might really be tomato plants.

So, come 2025, smoking tobacco will be a highly suspicious activity. Just that alone, reported to the police, could be license for further investigation.

And here ends my Stasi fantasy, a momentary indulgence of surveillance, no study of informal behaviour controls.

buffy said:

I just checked. “Smoking is a health hazard” went on the packs in Australia in 1973. The more stark ones were the early 1980s.

A friend of mine now deceased used to say to the shopkeepers, “give me the ones that harm others”.

buffy said:

>>Cigarettes are taxed at a tax rate equivalent to 343% or more (tax divided by production cost) with a further 12.5 increase in tax every year.<<

I see the premature ageing and poor health effects of cigarettes a lot in my work. They probably need even higher taxing to come near covering the health costs to society. No-one in a Western society born after about 1970(?) could not have been told of the detrimental health effects. I’ll give people older than that the benefit of the doubt. So it has been a choice to take that risk for a long time now.

Considering alcohol causes more harm than nearly all illicit drugs combined, it should probably be taxed a few orders of magnitude higher…if living is all about minimising societal health care costs.

poikilotherm said:

buffy said:

>>Cigarettes are taxed at a tax rate equivalent to 343% or more (tax divided by production cost) with a further 12.5 increase in tax every year.<<

I see the premature ageing and poor health effects of cigarettes a lot in my work. They probably need even higher taxing to come near covering the health costs to society. No-one in a Western society born after about 1970(?) could not have been told of the detrimental health effects. I’ll give people older than that the benefit of the doubt. So it has been a choice to take that risk for a long time now.

Considering alcohol causes more harm than nearly all illicit drugs combined, it should probably be taxed a few orders of magnitude higher…if living is all about minimising societal health care costs.

True.

poikilotherm said:

Considering alcohol causes more harm than nearly all illicit drugs combined, it should probably be taxed a few orders of magnitude higher…if living is all about minimising societal health care costs.

I think the point mollwollfumble was making was that even if a product is legal, excessive taxation on that product leads to a black market in that product by providing a business opportunity to undercut the legal price while still maintaining a substantial profit margin.

KJW said:

poikilotherm said:

Considering alcohol causes more harm than nearly all illicit drugs combined, it should probably be taxed a few orders of magnitude higher…if living is all about minimising societal health care costs.

I think the point mollwollfumble was making was that even if a product is legal, excessive taxation on that product leads to a black market in that product by providing a business opportunity to undercut the legal price while still maintaining a substantial profit margin.

Thanks. Yes.

Also, governments are milking every last possible cent out of people’s addictions to these three.

And of the three, which illegal activity is most prevelent in Australia? Which illegal does the most harm?

Petrol is included because look up “excise” on the web and “alcohol, tobacco and petrol” always pop up.

Gambling stats vary state by state and venue by venue. On average, state governments skim 25% off the top from every dollar lost by gamblers.

conversation here is of cigarettes being sold singularly only, dispensing machines or whatever.

smoke counter in supermarkets going to be busy

transition said:

conversation here is of cigarettes being sold singularly only, dispensing machines or whatever.

smoke counter in supermarkets going to be busy

For what purpose, if I may ask?

Seems rather pointless.

party_pants said:

transition said:

conversation here is of cigarettes being sold singularly only, dispensing machines or whatever.

smoke counter in supermarkets going to be busy

For what purpose, if I may ask?

Seems rather pointless.

just a dumb thought experiment, indulge me

~$10 per smoke sounds like a good price.

party_pants said:

transition said:

conversation here is of cigarettes being sold singularly only, dispensing machines or whatever.

smoke counter in supermarkets going to be busy

For what purpose, if I may ask?

Seems rather pointless.

cigarettes have always been sold singly iin underdeveloped countries.

12 litres of orange juice. Tthat’s a good evenings squeezing.

transition said:

party_pants said:

transition said:

conversation here is of cigarettes being sold singularly only, dispensing machines or whatever.

smoke counter in supermarkets going to be busy

For what purpose, if I may ask?

Seems rather pointless.

just a dumb thought experiment, indulge me

~$10 per smoke sounds like a good price.

Some people grow it for free.

Tau.Neutrino said:

transition said:

party_pants said:

For what purpose, if I may ask?

Seems rather pointless.

just a dumb thought experiment, indulge me

~$10 per smoke sounds like a good price.

Some people grow it for free.

I know nothing.

transition said:

conversation here is of cigarettes being sold singularly only, dispensing machines or whatever.

smoke counter in supermarkets going to be busy

No and no.

Given that nicotine patches and nicotine gum and vapes are tobacco products too, it’s a wonber they are not also being taxed highly.

Or are they?

I see, e-cigs are priced at about $100 each. So somebdy is ripping somebody off, not necessarily the government.