I was wondering what classical music was. Is it, I wondered, even a sensible category? Does it make sense to have a category broad enough to include the sacred music of Obrecht, Puccini’s operas and also Philip Glass’s minimalist pieces of the 1970s, but excludes the jazz piano works of James P. Johnson, the disco tunes by the Bee Gees, or Mike Oldfield’s progressive rock works?

So I referred to Wikipedia.

Classical music is art music produced or rooted in the traditions of Western culture, including both liturgical (religious) and secular music.

Well “art music” is a bit of a subjective concept but otherwise okay.

While a more precise term is also used to refer to the period from 1750 to 1820 (the Classical period), this article is about the broad span of time from before the 6th century AD to the present day, which includes the Classical period and various other periods. The central norms of this tradition became codified between 1550 and 1900, which is known as the common-practice period.

Now we’re getting somewhere. (puts a pin in “common-practice period”)

Western staff notation is used by composers to indicate to the performer the pitches (which form the melodies, basslines and chords), tempo, metre and rhythms for a piece of music. This can leave less room for practices such as improvisation and ad libitum ornamentation, which are frequently heard in non-European art music and in popular-music styles such as jazz and blues.

Yeah … hmmm …
I mean I’ve heard very different versions of the same piece of Classical music. Different musical directors, performers, and conductors will bring a different interpretation.

Another difference is that whereas most popular styles adopt the song (strophic) form or a derivation of this form, classical music has been noted for its development of highly sophisticated forms of instrumental music such as the symphony, concerto, fugue, sonata, and mixed vocal and instrumental styles such as opera, cantata, and mass.

Strophic form, also called verse-repeating or chorus form, is the term applied to songs in which all verses or stanzas of the text are sung to the same music. The opposite of strophic form, with new music written for every stanza, is called through-composed.

I hear what you’re saying, but certainly there is complicated music that is not considered Classical, including some of the better Trance tracks.

The term “classical music” did not appear until the early 19th century, in an attempt to distinctly canonize the period from Johann Sebastian Bach to Ludwig van Beethoven as a golden age. The earliest reference to “classical music” recorded by the Oxford English Dictionary is from about 1829.

Noted.

The remainder of the article is similarly unsatisfying in terms of delineating the term.

I examine my pins.

In the history of European art music, the common practice period is the era between the formation and the decline of the tonal system. Though there are no exact dates for this phenomenon, most features of the common-practice period persisted from the mid- to late baroque period, through the Classical, Romantic and Impressionist periods, or roughly from around 1650 to 1900.

Did the tonal system really decline?

Tonality is the arrangement of pitches and/or chords of a musical work in a hierarchy of perceived relations, stabilities, attractions and directionality. In this hierarchy, the individual pitch or triadic chord with the greatest stability is called the tonic. The root of the tonic chord forms the name given to the key; so in the key of C major, the note C is both the tonic of the scale and the root of the tonic chord (C–E–G). Simple folk music songs often start and end with the tonic note. The most common use of the term “is to designate the arrangement of musical phenomena around a referential tonic in European music from about 1600 to about 1910” (Hyer 2001). Contemporary classical music from 1910 to the 2000s may practice or avoid any sort of tonality—but harmony in almost all Western popular music remains tonal.

So is it in fact a useful term? Does it just mean “all Western-derived music other than that readily identifiable as belonging to a category that arose after the 19th century”?

It’s a useful term but an imprecise one, by tradition.

>Does it just mean “all Western-derived music other than that readily identifiable as belonging to a category that arose after the 19th century”? No. A lot of Western folk music for example is very old (“traditional”) and not classified as “classical”.

It’s a useful term but an imprecise one, by tradition.

>Does it just mean “all Western-derived music other than that readily identifiable as belonging to a category that arose after the 19th century”?

No. A lot of Western folk music for example is very old (“traditional”) and not classified as “classical”.

Bubblecar said:

>Does it just mean “all Western-derived music other than that readily identifiable as belonging to a category that arose after the 19th century”?

No. A lot of Western folk music for example is very old (“traditional”) and not classified as “classical”.

Fair rejoinder

I don’t think you will ever get a simple written definition of Classical Music. It is the kind of thing that defies definition.

Just like Rock Music or Blues Music. The definitions are elusive.

dv said:

Bubblecar said:

>Does it just mean “all Western-derived music other than that readily identifiable as belonging to a category that arose after the 19th century”?

No. A lot of Western folk music for example is very old (“traditional”) and not classified as “classical”.

Fair rejoinder

And the further you go back in time, the more that much of “early music” resembles what would now be thought of as “folk” or “traditional regional” music etc.

Classical music tends to be associated with the academic traditions that came to be associated with professional musicianship.

party_pants said:

Just like Rock Music or Blues Music. The definitions are elusive.

Well true enough but both of those categories are, in the scheme of things, narrow. Classical is a very broad bucket term.

I was wondering what classical music was. Is it, I wondered, even a sensible category? Does it make sense to have a category broad enough to include the sacred music of Obrecht, Puccini’s operas and also Philip Glass’s minimalist pieces of the 1970s, but excludes the jazz piano works of James P. Johnson, the disco tunes by the Bee Gees, or Mike Oldfield’s progressive rock works?

Yes it makes sense. Classical music has many sub genres

Early
Medieval
Chant
Choral
Baroque
Classcial
High Classical
Renaissance
Chamber
Orchestral
Opera
Romantic
Impressionist
Wedding / Funeral / March
Classical Crossover
Modern
Minimal
Contemporary
Avant-Garde

dv said:

party_pants said:

Just like Rock Music or Blues Music. The definitions are elusive.

Well true enough but both of those categories are, in the scheme of things, narrow. Classical is a very broad bucket term.

Rock and blues and most other broad genres also have sub genres .

dv said:

party_pants said:

Just like Rock Music or Blues Music. The definitions are elusive.

Well true enough but both of those categories are, in the scheme of things, narrow. Classical is a very broad bucket term.

Yeah, it is probably the sort of music that was performed professionally for the aristocratic classes in Europe from say 1500 to WW1. Lots of styles and genres within that four centuries.

Tau.Neutrino said:

Yes it makes sense. Classical music has many sub genres

That observation doesn’t explain how it was decided what’s in and what’s out.

It is interesting that at the time the term first came into use in the early 19th century, it was used to describe an era that was thought to have passed.

dv said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Yes it makes sense. Classical music has many sub genres

That observation doesn’t explain how it was decided what’s in and what’s out.

It historically follows the art movement periods set by fashion of the time.

In art the descriptor would more likely be Neo-Classicism…the classics being Roman and Greek.

The earliest form of musical notation can be found in a cuneiform tablet that was created at Nippur, in Sumer (today’s Iraq), in about 1400 BC. The tablet represents fragmentary instructions for performing music, that the music was composed in harmonies of thirds, and that it was written using a diatonic scale. A tablet from about 1250 BC shows a more developed form of notation. Although the interpretation of the notation system is still controversial, it is clear that the notation indicates the names of strings on a lyre, the tuning of which is described in other tablets. Although they are fragmentary, these tablets represent the earliest notated melodies found anywhere in the world.

Oldest known melody

¿at what point do we classify a descriptor of a distribution as a definition?

ABC Classic FM appears to apply a very broad definition.

dv said:

ABC Classic FM appears to apply a very broad definition.

Yes.

Melody description

Fugue description

Fashion of the time is set by innovation by individuals influencing the whole, and this in turn is fueled by sexual creativity.

>>>It historically follows the art movement periods set by fashion of the time.

Fashion of the time is set by innovation by individuals influencing the whole, and this in turn is fueled by sexual creativity.

>sexual creativity

??

Bubblecar said:

>sexual creativity

??

Too deep ?

Tau.Neutrino said:

Bubblecar said:

>sexual creativity

??

Too deep ?

The water? Mile high, mile below, skydiving for a quickie.

Tau.Neutrino said:

>>>It historically follows the art movement periods set by fashion of the time.

Fashion of the time is set by innovation by individuals influencing the whole, and this in turn is fueled by sexual creativity.

Fashion of the time is set by innovation by individuals influencing the whole, and this in turn is fueled by imagination and creativity.

Tau.Neutrino said:

Bubblecar said:

>sexual creativity

??

Too deep ?

Too irrelevant.

And what exactly is “sexual creativity”?

Tau.Neutrino said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

>>>It historically follows the art movement periods set by fashion of the time.

Fashion of the time is set by innovation by individuals influencing the whole, and this in turn is fueled by sexual creativity.

Fashion of the time is set by innovation by individuals influencing the whole, and this in turn is fueled by imagination and creativity.

That’s sound more on topic :)

Bubblecar said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Bubblecar said:

>sexual creativity

??

Too deep ?

Too irrelevant.

And what exactly is “sexual creativity”?

sexual creativity can be traced to musicians writing songs about love and using music as a platform to find a partner

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJzNZ1c5C9c&list=RDzpOULjyy-n8&index=2

Another view would be geometric appreciation applied to musical form.

This merges geometry with mathematics.

Mathematics of music.

Geometry of life and the environment.

An artists appreciation of landscape is also geometrical in nature.

Off the top of my head and without looking anything up here is my list of musical johnrah.
I’ll start with Medieval
Ballata
Estampie
Gregorian Chant, who doesn’t love this.
Madrigal (Trecento)
Motet
Organum
Saltarello

Next in my list is Renaissance
Ballade
Canzona
Carol
Chanson
Fantasia Chromatic fantasia

Galliard
Intermedio
Laude
Litany
Madrigal
Madrigal comedy
Madrigale spirituale
Mass Cyclic mass, this one is a ripper.
Parody mass
Paraphrase mass
Cantus firmus mass

Motet
Motet-chanson
Opera
Pavane
Ricercar
Sequence
Tiento
Toccata

Baroque
Allemande
Canon
Cantata
Chaconne
Concerto Concerto grosso
Solo concerto

Courante
Fugue, often used by government departments.
Gavotte
Gigue
Mass
Minuet
Opera Opera buffa
Opera seria

Oratorio
Partita
Passacaglia
Passepied
Prelude
Sarabande
Sinfonia
Sonata Flute sonata
Trio sonata

Suite

Classical + Romantic
Bagatelle
Ballade
Ballet Classical ballet

Caprice
Carol
Concerto Cello concerto
Clarinet concerto
Double bass concerto
Flute concerto
Oboe concerto
Piano concerto
Trumpet concerto
Viola concerto
Violin concerto

Dance
Divertimento
Étude
Impromptu
Intermezzo
Mass
Mazurka
March
Music hall
Nocturne
Opera Ballad opera
Opera buffa
Opéra comique
Opera seria
Operetta
Overture Concert overture
Symphonic poem

Singspiel
Zarzuela
Concert Aria

Oratorio
Polonaise
Prelude
Quartet Piano quartet
String quartet
Oboe quartet

Quintet Piano quintet
String quintet

Requiem
Rhapsody
Rondo
Scherzo
Serenade
Sinfonia concertante
Sonata Piano sonata
Violin sonata
Viola sonata
Cello sonata
Flute sonata
Clarinet sonata
Bassoon sonata

Symphony Program symphony
Choral symphony

Suite
Waltz

For those who don’t identify as intellectuals, 20th and 21st Century
Ballet Neoclassical ballet
Contemporary ballet

Burlesque
Cabaret
Concerto for Orchestra
Electronic music
Film score
Modern dance
Moment form
Minimal music
Musical theatre
Opera
Soundtrack
Vaudeville

Is this classical?

https://i.imgur.com/n9×0mBN.mp4

Bubblecar said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

>>>It historically follows the art movement periods set by fashion of the time.

Fashion of the time is set by innovation by individuals influencing the whole, and this in turn is fueled by sexual creativity.

Fashion of the time is set by innovation by individuals influencing the whole, and this in turn is fueled by imagination and creativity.

That’s sound more on topic :)

>>It historically follows the art movement periods set by fashion of the time.
Fashion of the time is set by innovation by individuals influencing the whole, and this in turn is fueled by imagination and creativity.

This is turn changes continually with peaks set by each generation ?

is = in

Peak Warming Man said:

Off the top of my head and without looking anything up here is my list of musical johnrah.
I’ll start with Medieval
Ballata
Estampie
Gregorian Chant, who doesn’t love this.
Madrigal (Trecento)
Motet
Organum
Saltarello

Next in my list is Renaissance
Ballade
Canzona
Carol
Chanson
Fantasia Chromatic fantasia

Galliard
Intermedio
Laude
Litany
Madrigal
Madrigal comedy
Madrigale spirituale
Mass Cyclic mass, this one is a ripper.
Parody mass
Paraphrase mass
Cantus firmus mass

Motet
Motet-chanson
Opera
Pavane
Ricercar
Sequence
Tiento
Toccata

Baroque
Allemande
Canon
Cantata
Chaconne
Concerto Concerto grosso
Solo concerto

Courante
Fugue, often used by government departments.
Gavotte
Gigue
Mass
Minuet
Opera Opera buffa
Opera seria

Oratorio
Partita
Passacaglia
Passepied
Prelude
Sarabande
Sinfonia
Sonata Flute sonata
Trio sonata

Suite

Classical + Romantic
Bagatelle
Ballade
Ballet Classical ballet

Caprice
Carol
Concerto Cello concerto
Clarinet concerto
Double bass concerto
Flute concerto
Oboe concerto
Piano concerto
Trumpet concerto
Viola concerto
Violin concerto

Dance
Divertimento
Étude
Impromptu
Intermezzo
Mass
Mazurka
March
Music hall
Nocturne
Opera Ballad opera
Opera buffa
Opéra comique
Opera seria
Operetta
Overture Concert overture
Symphonic poem

Singspiel
Zarzuela
Concert Aria

Oratorio
Polonaise
Prelude
Quartet Piano quartet
String quartet
Oboe quartet

Quintet Piano quintet
String quintet

Requiem
Rhapsody
Rondo
Scherzo
Serenade
Sinfonia concertante
Sonata Piano sonata
Violin sonata
Viola sonata
Cello sonata
Flute sonata
Clarinet sonata
Bassoon sonata

Symphony Program symphony
Choral symphony

Suite
Waltz

For those who don’t identify as intellectuals, 20th and 21st Century
Ballet Neoclassical ballet
Contemporary ballet

Burlesque
Cabaret
Concerto for Orchestra
Electronic music
Film score
Modern dance
Moment form
Minimal music
Musical theatre
Opera
Soundtrack
Vaudeville

Thanks PWM

:)

dv said:

So is it in fact a useful term? Does it just mean “all Western-derived music other than that readily identifiable as belonging to a category that arose after the 19th century”?

I think that’s a pretty good definition, except there is much pre 20th Century music that would be classified as “folk” rather than “classical”.

There is also plenty of classical music based on folk themes of course, but they tend to mess it up.

On some oldies’ station for father’s day, they were taking classical music requests. Someone requested the Star Wars theme… just because it’s insteumental doesn’t mean it’s classical. Forty one years ago isn’t “classical” IMO.

dv said:

The earliest form of musical notation can be found in a cuneiform tablet that was created at Nippur, in Sumer (today’s Iraq), in about 1400 BC. The tablet represents fragmentary instructions for performing music, that the music was composed in harmonies of thirds, and that it was written using a diatonic scale. A tablet from about 1250 BC shows a more developed form of notation. Although the interpretation of the notation system is still controversial, it is clear that the notation indicates the names of strings on a lyre, the tuning of which is described in other tablets. Although they are fragmentary, these tablets represent the earliest notated melodies found anywhere in the world.

Oldest known melody

Thanks for that.

:)

Evolution in art periods covers 7 major fields: Music, Art, Literature, Politics, Movies, Mini series and Games.

Tau.Neutrino said:

Left one out

Evolution in art periods covers 8 major fields: Music, Art, Fashion, Literature, Politics, Movies, Mini series and Games.

I was remembering a simple Beethoven piece I played at one stage,‘Folk Song.’ I went to google and found lots of Beethoven ‘folk songs.’ I have no idea which one it would be.

And don’t forget..

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th-century_classical_music

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contemporary_classical_music

Then there is contemporary classical/jazz and contemporary classical/rock.

HTH

Reads thread.

I probably should have done that before posting.

The Rev Dodgson said:

I probably should have done that before posting.

That’s not forum standard operating procedure.

I get the impression that in the minds of people who would use the term ‘Classical’ is the image of an orchestra playing music from the eighteenth or nineteenth centuries.

I was just down the supermarket and in the background music the absolute classic “The Night Chicago Died” by Paper Lace came on.

ABC Classic FM asked listeners to send messages on how they were first attracted to Classical music.

A dozen or so said that it was because of Hooked On Classics, the 1981 release by Louis Clark and the RPO, in which tracks were composed of snippets of famous works, with a basic rock drumbeat and to a constant tempo.

I listened to it, for the first time in decades. I have to hand it to Clark as arranger: he did a good job of segueing between pieces. The constant tempo doesn’t interfere with most of the pieces too badly: Flight of the Bumblebee, March of the Toreadors, Overture to William Tell fare okay.

But it is just brutal to Rhapsody in Blue whose charm relies heavily in subtle treatment of tempo.

An interesting exercise would be to find the average number (in Years) between the years of all the art movement periods.

Hmm, definition of classical music, I hadn’t thought about it except in a very limited sense.

I’m on record as saying that no thing ever has a closed definition, even such a concrete thing as a “chair” has a definition that relies of the definitions of “sit” and “back” which in turn depend on other definitions.

I’m also on record as saying that music has only two genres: “popular music” and “unpopular music”.

For classical music, let me explore the boundaries a bit.

Many people would class Gershwin’s “Rhapsody in Blue” as classical. But some wouldn’t, counting only his “Concerto in F”.

Film score music is dominated by classical music. For example, nearly everyone now accepts that the theme music of “Star Wars” should be classed as classical. Some people go to the extent that they consider all film score music to be classical, such as that from “Sound of Music” and the Shrek “Hallelujah”.

Music for stage plays is interesting. Some people consider the music from “Phantom of the Opera” and “Cats” for instance to be classical. Can we, or can we not, consider modern stage productions to be a forward extension of the older opera?

Backing music composed for computer games is increasingly being accepted as classical.

But it would still be a brave person who tried to claim that theme music for TV series is classical. And yet, even there the theme music for Batman is taught as part of the classical repertoire.

The German “Lieder” music is now fully accepted as classical, but when composed it would have firmly sat in the pop music group.

All this indicates that popular mesic becomes classical as it gets older, in much the same way that kitsch becomes antiques as it gets older.

mollwollfumble said:

Hmm, definition of classical music, I hadn’t thought about it except in a very limited sense.

I’m on record as saying that no thing ever has a closed definition, even such a concrete thing as a “chair” has a definition that relies of the definitions of “sit” and “back” which in turn depend on other definitions.

I’m also on record as saying that music has only two genres: “popular music” and “unpopular music”.

For classical music, let me explore the boundaries a bit.

Many people would class Gershwin’s “Rhapsody in Blue” as classical. But some wouldn’t, counting only his “Concerto in F”.

Film score music is dominated by classical music. For example, nearly everyone now accepts that the theme music of “Star Wars” should be classed as classical. Some people go to the extent that they consider all film score music to be classical, such as that from “Sound of Music” and the Shrek “Hallelujah”.

Music for stage plays is interesting. Some people consider the music from “Phantom of the Opera” and “Cats” for instance to be classical. Can we, or can we not, consider modern stage productions to be a forward extension of the older opera?

Backing music composed for computer games is increasingly being accepted as classical.

But it would still be a brave person who tried to claim that theme music for TV series is classical. And yet, even there the theme music for Batman is taught as part of the classical repertoire.

The German “Lieder” music is now fully accepted as classical, but when composed it would have firmly sat in the pop music group.

All this indicates that popular mesic becomes classical as it gets older, in much the same way that kitsch becomes antiques as it gets older.

Or one could take the pragmatic approach that “Classical Music is what a Classical Music Radio Station plays”.

Below is the timetable for one of our two local classical music radio stations.

• “Jazz” appears on the timetable three times.
• “Theatre/Film” appears on the timetable twice.

Other notable entries that one may not always expect to be classed as classical are brass band music, and hymns.

Not listed, but occasionally played, is old musical comedy including Victor Borge, Flanders and Swan, Tom Lehrer, and others.

mollwollfumble said:

mollwollfumble said:

Hmm, definition of classical music, I hadn’t thought about it except in a very limited sense.

I’m on record as saying that no thing ever has a closed definition, even such a concrete thing as a “chair” has a definition that relies of the definitions of “sit” and “back” which in turn depend on other definitions.

I’m also on record as saying that music has only two genres: “popular music” and “unpopular music”.

For classical music, let me explore the boundaries a bit.

Many people would class Gershwin’s “Rhapsody in Blue” as classical. But some wouldn’t, counting only his “Concerto in F”.

Film score music is dominated by classical music. For example, nearly everyone now accepts that the theme music of “Star Wars” should be classed as classical. Some people go to the extent that they consider all film score music to be classical, such as that from “Sound of Music” and the Shrek “Hallelujah”.

Music for stage plays is interesting. Some people consider the music from “Phantom of the Opera” and “Cats” for instance to be classical. Can we, or can we not, consider modern stage productions to be a forward extension of the older opera?

Backing music composed for computer games is increasingly being accepted as classical.

But it would still be a brave person who tried to claim that theme music for TV series is classical. And yet, even there the theme music for Batman is taught as part of the classical repertoire.

The German “Lieder” music is now fully accepted as classical, but when composed it would have firmly sat in the pop music group.

All this indicates that popular mesic becomes classical as it gets older, in much the same way that kitsch becomes antiques as it gets older.

Or one could take the pragmatic approach that “Classical Music is what a Classical Music Radio Station plays”.

Below is the timetable for one of our two local classical music radio stations.

• “Jazz” appears on the timetable three times.
• “Theatre/Film” appears on the timetable twice.

Other notable entries that one may not always expect to be classed as classical are brass band music, and hymns.

Not listed, but occasionally played, is old musical comedy including Victor Borge, Flanders and Swan, Tom Lehrer, and others.

I’d also add in any music played on ABC FM’s Music Show, which extends the limits to include almost everything other than extremist pure pop.

On reflection, I think music should be classified as:

Academic: Anything written by someone who has studied music at tertiary level

Commercial: Anything written with the prime purpose of making money.

Folk: Anything else, including Jazz, blues etc.

The Rev Dodgson said:

On reflection, I think music should be classified as:

Academic: Anything written by someone who has studied music at tertiary level

Commercial: Anything written with the prime purpose of making money.

Folk: Anything else, including Jazz, blues etc.

Classical: Stuff written by old dead Europeans.

The Rev Dodgson said:

On reflection, I think music should be classified as:

Academic: Anything written by someone who has studied music at tertiary level

Commercial: Anything written with the prime purpose of making money.

Folk: Anything else, including Jazz, blues etc.

There’s more than three,.
See my earlier body of work on this subject earlier in the thread.

Peak Warming Man said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

On reflection, I think music should be classified as:

Academic: Anything written by someone who has studied music at tertiary level

Commercial: Anything written with the prime purpose of making money.

Folk: Anything else, including Jazz, blues etc.

There’s more than three,.
See my earlier body of work on this subject earlier in the thread.

Well categories are arbitrary, so as long as you have an odd number, I’ll go with it.