Date: 7/11/2018 09:17:41
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1300030
Subject: BHP Train derailment

BHP runaway iron ore train left a twisted wreck after derailment.

The mining giant was forced to deliberately derail a fully-laden 2.6km-long iron ore train early on Monday morning after the driver alighted to inspect a carriage and the train carried on unattended.

The train — with four locomotives and 268 wagons — careered for 92 km at average speeds of 110 km/h before it was derailed near Turner, about 120 km south of Port Hedland.

https://thewest.com.au/business/mining/bhp-train-derailment-first-picture-of-wreckage-after-miner-forced-to-derail-runaway-iron-ore-train-south-of-port-hedland-ng-b881013125z

Surely there has to be a better system than this. Ideas that immediately come to mind are:

Why the hell aren’t such systems already in use?

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 09:19:54
From: JudgeMental
ID: 1300032
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

mollwollfumble said:


BHP runaway iron ore train left a twisted wreck after derailment.

The mining giant was forced to deliberately derail a fully-laden 2.6km-long iron ore train early on Monday morning after the driver alighted to inspect a carriage and the train carried on unattended.

The train — with four locomotives and 268 wagons — careered for 92 km at average speeds of 110 km/h before it was derailed near Turner, about 120 km south of Port Hedland.

https://thewest.com.au/business/mining/bhp-train-derailment-first-picture-of-wreckage-after-miner-forced-to-derail-runaway-iron-ore-train-south-of-port-hedland-ng-b881013125z

Surely there has to be a better system than this. Ideas that immediately come to mind are:

  • CCTV cameras so the driver never has to get out to inspect a carriage.
  • A movement sensor in the cabin that slows the train when the driver is asleep, dead or absent.
  • An automatic braking system that triggers the brakes after say 5 minutes without a response from the driver (not 60 seconds, that’s just stupid).
  • Remote wireless operation of the braking system.
  • Automatic operation of emergency braking on all the rear carriages if a derailment is detected up front.
  • A slow derailment method, such as a mat over the rails that stops the wheels from turning without taking them off the rails.
  • An energy absorbing carriage and/or energy absorbing links between carriages to minimise damage caused by derailment.

Why the hell aren’t such systems already in use?


what control systems are already in place on these trains? can you list them please?

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 09:33:18
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1300034
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Maybe a WiFi smart phone app that can control the lead locomotive.

Speed,
Braking
Emergency stop

etc

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 09:35:59
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1300035
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

A pressure switch in the drivers seat

Driver not in seat = Brake etc

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 09:44:55
From: roughbarked
ID: 1300036
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Tau.Neutrino said:


A pressure switch in the drivers seat

Driver not in seat = Brake etc

Tractors have those.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 09:48:41
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1300037
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

roughbarked said:


Tau.Neutrino said:

A pressure switch in the drivers seat

Driver not in seat = Brake etc

Tractors have those.

A backup to the pressure switch could be a light beam crossing from side to side where the driver sits.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 09:57:17
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1300039
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Tau.Neutrino said:


Maybe a WiFi smart phone app that can control the lead locomotive.

Speed,
Braking
Emergency stop

etc

Encrypted and on its own frequencies .

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 10:09:42
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1300041
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Satellite phone connection to the engine interface ?

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 10:09:50
From: captain_spalding
ID: 1300042
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Tau.Neutrino said:


roughbarked said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

A pressure switch in the drivers seat

Driver not in seat = Brake etc

Tractors have those.

A backup to the pressure switch could be a light beam crossing from side to side where the driver sits.

I understand that Japanese trains have a system where the driver has to do a couple of simple manual tasks every few minutes (push a button, pull a lever, whatever) or else the train stops.

I think the system also assesses his time/accuracy on those tasks, so that, if he’s getting gassed my carbon monoxide or something, the system recognises something’s wrong, and stops the train.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 10:18:17
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1300043
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

captain_spalding said:


Tau.Neutrino said:

roughbarked said:

Tractors have those.

A backup to the pressure switch could be a light beam crossing from side to side where the driver sits.

I understand that Japanese trains have a system where the driver has to do a couple of simple manual tasks every few minutes (push a button, pull a lever, whatever) or else the train stops.

I think the system also assesses his time/accuracy on those tasks, so that, if he’s getting gassed my carbon monoxide or something, the system recognises something’s wrong, and stops the train.

Some cars have driver sensing technology and self driving cars have expected driver interaction like as above.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 10:21:20
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1300044
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Place specific wifi kill stations along the track and each locomotive has in built wifi engine interface.

Train passes though a specific spot, the engine receives a wifi signal to slow down and stop.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 10:26:11
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1300045
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Camera drone fitted with inspection lights which sends the video to a screen in the cabin and which can be operated from the cabin.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 10:32:29
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1300046
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Rear carriage has a light sensor and a sound sensor to trip emergency brake.

Driver shines a torch at the rear carriage or yells at it.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 10:34:12
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1300047
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Tau.Neutrino said:


Place specific wifi kill stations along the track and each locomotive has in built wifi engine interface.

Train passes though a specific spot, the engine receives a wifi signal to slow down and stop.

Fit a wifi kill switch to a helicopter or plane.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 10:48:28
From: transition
ID: 1300049
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

wouldn’t be too keen or jump to any conclusions, inspired by limited information

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 10:51:07
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1300051
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Maybe some compulsory running exercises for train drivers when they forget to put on the trains handbrake.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 10:53:45
From: transition
ID: 1300052
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Tau.Neutrino said:


Maybe some compulsory running exercises for train drivers when they forget to put on the trains handbrake.

don’t forget you FA about trains, or iron ore mining

like me

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 10:54:12
From: transition
ID: 1300053
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

transition said:


Tau.Neutrino said:

Maybe some compulsory running exercises for train drivers when they forget to put on the trains handbrake.

don’t forget you FA about trains, or iron ore mining

like me

know FA

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 10:54:43
From: Peak Warming Man
ID: 1300055
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

transition said:


wouldn’t be too keen or jump to any conclusions, inspired by limited information

Sometimes that’s the only exercise people get.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 10:55:20
From: transition
ID: 1300056
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Peak Warming Man said:


transition said:

wouldn’t be too keen or jump to any conclusions, inspired by limited information

Sometimes that’s the only exercise people get.

too fucken true

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 10:56:38
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1300058
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

I’ve watched two movies about runaway trains, Runaway Train and Unstoppable.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 10:58:27
From: transition
ID: 1300059
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Tau.Neutrino said:


I’ve watched two movies about runaway trains, Runaway Train and Unstoppable.

well jesus, mate, you’ve got an expert level interest

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 10:59:08
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1300060
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

I know they weight a lot when 3km long
Take ages too slow down too
take a week or so to clean up

Driver goes in for a chat

$%^&#**(#)*$#&U#

Driver is dismissed or gets a cleaning job.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 11:12:41
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1300062
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Do Locomotives have black boxes ?

A recording of engine noise and train carriage noise would be helpful.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 11:16:03
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1300064
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

I’m sure a study to train safety worldwide would acquire many more insights.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 11:16:23
From: captain_spalding
ID: 1300065
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

I used to commute on trains, and listen to the comms between driver and guard on my radio scanner.

Most illuminating, at times.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 11:17:22
From: sibeen
ID: 1300066
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Tau.Neutrino said:


I’ve watched two movies about runaway trains, Runaway Train and Unstoppable.

What was Runaway Train about then?

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 11:18:24
From: captain_spalding
ID: 1300067
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

sibeen said:


Tau.Neutrino said:

I’ve watched two movies about runaway trains, Runaway Train and Unstoppable.

What was Runaway Train about then?

Hang on, i’ m sure there’s a clue here, somewhere..

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 11:20:02
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1300068
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Trains make expected noises, are drivers made aware of what they are and what noises they should not hear?

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 11:20:43
From: Spiny Norman
ID: 1300069
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

captain_spalding said:

I understand that Japanese trains have a system where the driver has to do a couple of simple manual tasks every few minutes (push a button, pull a lever, whatever) or else the train stops.

A lot of trains (AFAIK) have something like that. I have also heard of drivers who get fed-up with such things just force a wedge (or whatever) into the device to lock it on. As has been mentioned above, this is a possible factor in this train crash.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 11:23:19
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1300070
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

I had a model train set when I was a kid.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 11:26:05
From: captain_spalding
ID: 1300071
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Tau.Neutrino said:


I had a model train set when I was a kid.

Gomez had one even later on.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 11:26:07
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1300072
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Tau.Neutrino said:


I had a model train set when I was a kid.

I learnt the concepts of accelerating, deaccelerating, stopping, center of gravity and derailment.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 11:27:38
From: captain_spalding
ID: 1300073
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Tau.Neutrino said:


Tau.Neutrino said:

I had a model train set when I was a kid.

I learnt the concepts of accelerating, deaccelerating, stopping, center of gravity and derailment.

I learnt that, no matter what you try, a model train set just will not cut the head off a Barbie doll tied to the tracks.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 11:34:18
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1300074
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

captain_spalding said:


Tau.Neutrino said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

I had a model train set when I was a kid.

I learnt the concepts of accelerating, deaccelerating, stopping, center of gravity and derailment.

I learnt that, no matter what you try, a model train set just will not cut the head off a Barbie doll tied to the tracks.

The barbie doll massacre in Texas 1840 was terrible and the persons responsible never caught.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 11:44:20
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1300075
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Never trust physics ,’-)

https://imgur.com/gallery/QF3BTUs

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 11:51:41
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1300076
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momentum

Momentum

In Newtonian mechanics, linear momentum, translational momentum, or simply momentum is the product of the mass and velocity of an object. It is a vector quantity, possessing a magnitude and a direction in three-dimensional space.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 11:59:36
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1300077
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Tau.Neutrino said:


Never trust physics ,’-)

https://imgur.com/gallery/QF3BTUs

Surely that should be headed:

Always consider physics.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 12:12:55
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1300078
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

The Rev Dodgson said:


Tau.Neutrino said:

Never trust physics ,’-)

https://imgur.com/gallery/QF3BTUs

Surely that should be headed:

Always consider physics.

Yes, having a good concept of a brake is understanding physics.

Total weight is 99,734 tons

Putting the brake on is taking that understanding of physics to the next level.

Leaving the brake off has consequences when four engines are humming away with a total weight of 99,734 tons behind them.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 12:16:11
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1300079
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Maybe it was mechanical failure of some kind.

Maybe it was human error or a combination of both.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 12:17:44
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1300080
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Mass of a train
https://hypertextbook.com/facts/2000/RuiBingZheng.shtml

We know trains as a series of loads being pushed or pulled by a locomotive along railroad tracks. Because loads can consist of anything (whether it is passengers, steel, or mail), there is no set mass for a train. The adhesive weight is the mass of what the locomotive is pulling. The total weight includes both the train cars and the locomotive. The mass of a train is usually measured using the following units- US tons, short tons, and metric tons. In this case, the standard unit kilograms (kg) will be used.

more…

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 12:19:07
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1300081
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

and this bit

Modern trains are significantly more massive than their earlier counterparts. Diesel locomotives range in mass from the lightweight 22,680 kg GE to the 113,400 kg GE.

The BHP Iron Ore train broke the world record for heaviest train in its May 28, 1996 run from Australian cities Newman to Port Hedland. The 10 locomotives and 540 ore cars had a combined mass of 7.22 × 107 kg.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 12:31:31
From: Woodie
ID: 1300082
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

roughbarked said:


Tau.Neutrino said:

A pressure switch in the drivers seat

Driver not in seat = Brake etc

Tractors have those.

Mine doesn’t.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 12:35:53
From: sibeen
ID: 1300083
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Woodie said:


roughbarked said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

A pressure switch in the drivers seat

Driver not in seat = Brake etc

Tractors have those.

Mine doesn’t.

Yeah, but yours is not likely to be running.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 16:13:28
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1300155
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

A driver vicinity bracelet,

extreme ?

but saves a lot of cleaning up.

driver walking and inspecting a 2.5km long train

can be a long run back to the cabin

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 20:04:59
From: boppa
ID: 1300247
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Someones definitely going to get into trouble

No way it ‘should’ have done what it did….

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 20:39:41
From: party_pants
ID: 1300267
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Tau.Neutrino said:


I had a model train set when I was a kid.

I’ve watched lotsa train docos over the years. Each time the host gets to ride with the driver, there is always a button or lever the driver has to operate every now and again when the light comes on to show the driver is alert. I thought these were standard fittings on every train.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 20:41:43
From: boppa
ID: 1300270
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

party_pants said:


Tau.Neutrino said:

I had a model train set when I was a kid.

I’ve watched lotsa train docos over the years. Each time the host gets to ride with the driver, there is always a button or lever the driver has to operate every now and again when the light comes on to show the driver is alert. I thought these were standard fittings on every train.

It certainly is for QR, I put up a copy of the rules- which means somebody has been playing silly buggas…

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 20:42:53
From: poikilotherm
ID: 1300271
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

party_pants said:


Tau.Neutrino said:

I had a model train set when I was a kid.

I’ve watched lotsa train docos over the years. Each time the host gets to ride with the driver, there is always a button or lever the driver has to operate every now and again when the light comes on to show the driver is alert. I thought these were standard fittings on every train.

What if no one was in the train at the time it started to roll?

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 20:43:13
From: party_pants
ID: 1300272
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

boppa said:


party_pants said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

I had a model train set when I was a kid.

I’ve watched lotsa train docos over the years. Each time the host gets to ride with the driver, there is always a button or lever the driver has to operate every now and again when the light comes on to show the driver is alert. I thought these were standard fittings on every train.

It certainly is for QR, I put up a copy of the rules- which means somebody has been playing silly buggas…

Yeah, even to operate a crane or forklift you need a daily checklist with tick sheet. Does thew horn work, do the lights work, etc …

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 20:43:33
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1300273
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

This one is my favourite

A movement sensor not a pressure switch. A dead driver still has weight.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 20:45:34
From: boppa
ID: 1300274
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

This isnt a checklist though, its a button/lever/deadmans switch that has to be activated every so often (usually a couple of minutes or so) that, as per the rules, must bring the train to a stop
This obviously didnt happen

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 20:46:15
From: party_pants
ID: 1300275
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

poikilotherm said:


party_pants said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

I had a model train set when I was a kid.

I’ve watched lotsa train docos over the years. Each time the host gets to ride with the driver, there is always a button or lever the driver has to operate every now and again when the light comes on to show the driver is alert. I thought these were standard fittings on every train.

What if no one was in the train at the time it started to roll?


Train brakes should be fail safe. To give an analogy, it would be like pressing the pedal in a car to release the brakes. Brakes should be always on by default, unless there is air in the hoses to release them.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 20:47:30
From: party_pants
ID: 1300276
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

boppa said:


This isnt a checklist though, its a button/lever/deadmans switch that has to be activated every so often (usually a couple of minutes or so) that, as per the rules, must bring the train to a stop
This obviously didnt happen

Either somebody jammed it, or the system was faulty and not checked before the train set off.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 20:49:06
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1300279
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

party_pants said:


poikilotherm said:

party_pants said:

I’ve watched lotsa train docos over the years. Each time the host gets to ride with the driver, there is always a button or lever the driver has to operate every now and again when the light comes on to show the driver is alert. I thought these were standard fittings on every train.

What if no one was in the train at the time it started to roll?


Train brakes should be fail safe. To give an analogy, it would be like pressing the pedal in a car to release the brakes. Brakes should be always on by default, unless there is air in the hoses to release them.

Not good enough. With four engines there are four sources of air. All four need to shut off at once in a derailment and that clearly didn’t happen.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 20:55:01
From: sibeen
ID: 1300286
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Look, a post incident review (PIR) will be held. Management will be found to be free of fault and the guilty bastard train driver will be rightfully sacrificed.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 20:55:55
From: boppa
ID: 1300288
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

party_pants said:


poikilotherm said:

party_pants said:

I’ve watched lotsa train docos over the years. Each time the host gets to ride with the driver, there is always a button or lever the driver has to operate every now and again when the light comes on to show the driver is alert. I thought these were standard fittings on every train.

What if no one was in the train at the time it started to roll?


Train brakes should be fail safe. To give an analogy, it would be like pressing the pedal in a car to release the brakes. Brakes should be always on by default, unless there is air in the hoses to release them.

Cars are actually the odd one out that you have to apply pressure to get them to work, trains, trucks etc use a system exactly like that- spring loaded to automatically come on, air pressure is applied to release them…
Thats why I always laugh when I see a movie or whatever where they ‘cut the airline/disconnect the hose’ and it promptly runs away down a hill- ‘Unstoppable!!!’

I spose it would be a pretty boring movie if they showed what happens in real life, bad guy sneaks down to train yard and cuts air hose… driver gets in cab and….. nothing happens.. train can’t move…

The thing is that QRR (along with pretty much every other railroad in the world) has some form of ‘deadman’ switch fitted to it- the early ones were a spring loaded pressure switch that if the driver released the throttle handle, it would automatically apply the brakes (ie if he died, his hand would relax and fall off, stopping the train- which is how they got their name)
Unfortunately drivers soon figured out they could just put a weight on it and bingo, sit back and relax… (the book/movie ‘The Taking of Peldam 123’ showed exactly this)
Newer versions have a pushbutton or lever that they have to push/pull after a ‘warning light’ comes on, or.. the brakes come on
As this didnt happen, this safety feature either wasnt working, or had been disabled…

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 20:56:47
From: poikilotherm
ID: 1300290
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

sibeen said:


Look, a post incident review (PIR) will be held. Management will be found to be free of fault and the guilty bastard train driver will be rightfully sacrificed.

Very wookie of you.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 20:58:41
From: sibeen
ID: 1300291
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

poikilotherm said:


sibeen said:

Look, a post incident review (PIR) will be held. Management will be found to be free of fault and the guilty bastard train driver will be rightfully sacrificed.

Very wookie of you.

No, I’ve been involved in quite a few PIRs :)

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 21:00:18
From: party_pants
ID: 1300292
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

boppa said:


party_pants said:

poikilotherm said:

What if no one was in the train at the time it started to roll?


Train brakes should be fail safe. To give an analogy, it would be like pressing the pedal in a car to release the brakes. Brakes should be always on by default, unless there is air in the hoses to release them.

Cars are actually the odd one out that you have to apply pressure to get them to work, trains, trucks etc use a system exactly like that- spring loaded to automatically come on, air pressure is applied to release them…
Thats why I always laugh when I see a movie or whatever where they ‘cut the airline/disconnect the hose’ and it promptly runs away down a hill- ‘Unstoppable!!!’

I spose it would be a pretty boring movie if they showed what happens in real life, bad guy sneaks down to train yard and cuts air hose… driver gets in cab and….. nothing happens.. train can’t move…

The thing is that QRR (along with pretty much every other railroad in the world) has some form of ‘deadman’ switch fitted to it- the early ones were a spring loaded pressure switch that if the driver released the throttle handle, it would automatically apply the brakes (ie if he died, his hand would relax and fall off, stopping the train- which is how they got their name)
Unfortunately drivers soon figured out they could just put a weight on it and bingo, sit back and relax… (the book/movie ‘The Taking of Peldam 123’ showed exactly this)
Newer versions have a pushbutton or lever that they have to push/pull after a ‘warning light’ comes on, or.. the brakes come on
As this didnt happen, this safety feature either wasnt working, or had been disabled…

Yes. That is exactly what i was trying to get at, but your wording is much clearer. It should have never have happened – either something has been tampered with, or it was not working and was not checked.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 21:02:38
From: poikilotherm
ID: 1300294
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

sibeen said:


poikilotherm said:

sibeen said:

Look, a post incident review (PIR) will be held. Management will be found to be free of fault and the guilty bastard train driver will be rightfully sacrificed.

Very wookie of you.

No, I’ve been involved in quite a few PIRs :)

Probably lots of pot plants in the room too.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 21:15:43
From: sibeen
ID: 1300295
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

poikilotherm said:


sibeen said:

poikilotherm said:

Very wookie of you.

No, I’ve been involved in quite a few PIRs :)

Probably lots of pot plants in the room too.

A classic example will be the problem Telstra has experienced over the last week or so. Maintenance schedules and upgrades have been fucking strangled over the last few years by extreme budget cuts. Problems get recognised and are immediately swept under the carpet as the cost to mitigate doesn’t fit with the current corporate strategy. A few of these are major issues that would cost absolute shedloads to mitigate, so some form of planning would need to be put in place, but nup, under the carpet – it’ll be someone else’s problem.

There’s a re-org currently going on and it has resulted in absolute chaos. People have no idea who they report to, or report to multiple managers, or people within the same group report to different mangers; there’s floors of staff where they wander around doing absolutely nothing, and in many cases are not even bothering to turn up. The place is currently a basket case. *

Any chance that very senior managers will be held responsible for the recent fuck-ups. Hahahahah.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 21:17:19
From: Witty Rejoinder
ID: 1300297
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

sibeen said:


Look, a post incident review (PIR) will be held. Management will be found to be free of fault and the guilty bastard train driver will be rightfully sacrificed.

That Captain Spalding has a lot to answer for.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 21:19:28
From: Witty Rejoinder
ID: 1300300
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

poikilotherm said:


sibeen said:

Look, a post incident review (PIR) will be held. Management will be found to be free of fault and the guilty bastard train driver will be rightfully sacrificed.

Very wookie of you.

Sometimes I wish Russia would nuke Ankara just so Wookie would come back.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 21:22:17
From: poikilotherm
ID: 1300302
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

sibeen said:


poikilotherm said:

sibeen said:

No, I’ve been involved in quite a few PIRs :)

Probably lots of pot plants in the room too.

A classic example will be the problem Telstra has experienced over the last week or so. Maintenance schedules and upgrades have been fucking strangled over the last few years by extreme budget cuts. Problems get recognised and are immediately swept under the carpet as the cost to mitigate doesn’t fit with the current corporate strategy. A few of these are major issues that would cost absolute shedloads to mitigate, so some form of planning would need to be put in place, but nup, under the carpet – it’ll be someone else’s problem.

There’s a re-org currently going on and it has resulted in absolute chaos. People have no idea who they report to, or report to multiple managers, or people within the same group report to different mangers; there’s floors of staff where they wander around doing absolutely nothing, and in many cases are not even bothering to turn up. The place is currently a basket case. *

Any chance that very senior managers will be held responsible for the recent fuck-ups. Hahahahah.

  • It all sounds like exaggeration, believe me, it ain’t.

Wait where are these jobs you don’t need to turn up for?

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 21:24:02
From: sibeen
ID: 1300306
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

poikilotherm said:


sibeen said:

poikilotherm said:

Probably lots of pot plants in the room too.

A classic example will be the problem Telstra has experienced over the last week or so. Maintenance schedules and upgrades have been fucking strangled over the last few years by extreme budget cuts. Problems get recognised and are immediately swept under the carpet as the cost to mitigate doesn’t fit with the current corporate strategy. A few of these are major issues that would cost absolute shedloads to mitigate, so some form of planning would need to be put in place, but nup, under the carpet – it’ll be someone else’s problem.

There’s a re-org currently going on and it has resulted in absolute chaos. People have no idea who they report to, or report to multiple managers, or people within the same group report to different mangers; there’s floors of staff where they wander around doing absolutely nothing, and in many cases are not even bothering to turn up. The place is currently a basket case. *

Any chance that very senior managers will be held responsible for the recent fuck-ups. Hahahahah.

  • It all sounds like exaggeration, believe me, it ain’t.

Wait where are these jobs you don’t need to turn up for?

Currently lots at 242 Exhibition St, Melbourne.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 21:26:13
From: poikilotherm
ID: 1300307
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

sibeen said:


poikilotherm said:

sibeen said:

A classic example will be the problem Telstra has experienced over the last week or so. Maintenance schedules and upgrades have been fucking strangled over the last few years by extreme budget cuts. Problems get recognised and are immediately swept under the carpet as the cost to mitigate doesn’t fit with the current corporate strategy. A few of these are major issues that would cost absolute shedloads to mitigate, so some form of planning would need to be put in place, but nup, under the carpet – it’ll be someone else’s problem.

There’s a re-org currently going on and it has resulted in absolute chaos. People have no idea who they report to, or report to multiple managers, or people within the same group report to different mangers; there’s floors of staff where they wander around doing absolutely nothing, and in many cases are not even bothering to turn up. The place is currently a basket case. *

Any chance that very senior managers will be held responsible for the recent fuck-ups. Hahahahah.

  • It all sounds like exaggeration, believe me, it ain’t.

Wait where are these jobs you don’t need to turn up for?

Currently lots at 242 Exhibition St, Melbourne.

I won’t be able to find the right manager to employ me I suppose.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 21:29:08
From: sibeen
ID: 1300308
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

poikilotherm said:


sibeen said:

poikilotherm said:

Wait where are these jobs you don’t need to turn up for?

Currently lots at 242 Exhibition St, Melbourne.

I won’t be able to find the right manager to employ me I suppose.

Not at the moment. Middle management is being sacrificed to mammon.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 21:32:42
From: poikilotherm
ID: 1300309
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

sibeen said:


poikilotherm said:

sibeen said:

Currently lots at 242 Exhibition St, Melbourne.

I won’t be able to find the right manager to employ me I suppose.

Not at the moment. Middle management is being sacrificed to mammon.

Ah sweet sweet middle management, like the pleb train driver, always ready for slaughter.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 21:58:28
From: Ian
ID: 1300314
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

poikilotherm said:


sibeen said:

poikilotherm said:

Probably lots of pot plants in the room too.

A classic example will be the problem Telstra has experienced over the last week or so. Maintenance schedules and upgrades have been fucking strangled over the last few years by extreme budget cuts. Problems get recognised and are immediately swept under the carpet as the cost to mitigate doesn’t fit with the current corporate strategy. A few of these are major issues that would cost absolute shedloads to mitigate, so some form of planning would need to be put in place, but nup, under the carpet – it’ll be someone else’s problem.

There’s a re-org currently going on and it has resulted in absolute chaos. People have no idea who they report to, or report to multiple managers, or people within the same group report to different mangers; there’s floors of staff where they wander around doing absolutely nothing, and in many cases are not even bothering to turn up. The place is currently a basket case. *

Any chance that very senior managers will be held responsible for the recent fuck-ups. Hahahahah.

  • It all sounds like exaggeration, believe me, it ain’t.

Wait where are these jobs you don’t need to turn up for?

I did one for a few months back in the 80s… sales rep for an electronic components firm. A lot of the time I would just make half a dozen phone calls a day and write them up.. Only got the sack cause I couldn’t give a shit about the written reports.

Fkn slack.. never.

:)

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 22:09:57
From: sibeen
ID: 1300315
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Ian said:


poikilotherm said:

sibeen said:

A classic example will be the problem Telstra has experienced over the last week or so. Maintenance schedules and upgrades have been fucking strangled over the last few years by extreme budget cuts. Problems get recognised and are immediately swept under the carpet as the cost to mitigate doesn’t fit with the current corporate strategy. A few of these are major issues that would cost absolute shedloads to mitigate, so some form of planning would need to be put in place, but nup, under the carpet – it’ll be someone else’s problem.

There’s a re-org currently going on and it has resulted in absolute chaos. People have no idea who they report to, or report to multiple managers, or people within the same group report to different mangers; there’s floors of staff where they wander around doing absolutely nothing, and in many cases are not even bothering to turn up. The place is currently a basket case. *

Any chance that very senior managers will be held responsible for the recent fuck-ups. Hahahahah.

  • It all sounds like exaggeration, believe me, it ain’t.

Wait where are these jobs you don’t need to turn up for?

I did one for a few months back in the 80s… sales rep for an electronic components firm. A lot of the time I would just make half a dozen phone calls a day and write them up.. Only got the sack cause I couldn’t give a shit about the written reports.

Fkn slack.. never.

:)

Farnell?

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 22:15:42
From: Peak Warming Man
ID: 1300316
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

looks around nervously
I have a contact, a rather well placed contact in BHP, let’s call him Nigel.
I rang Nigel on his secure company phone.
looks over shoulder
Nigel told me that the excessive stockpile build up at the wharf was being addressed by other means and to never call him on that number again.

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 22:29:02
From: Ian
ID: 1300317
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

sibeen said:


Ian said:

poikilotherm said:

Wait where are these jobs you don’t need to turn up for?

I did one for a few months back in the 80s… sales rep for an electronic components firm. A lot of the time I would just make half a dozen phone calls a day and write them up.. Only got the sack cause I couldn’t give a shit about the written reports.

Fkn slack.. never.

:)

Farnell?

George Brown Electronics.. long since gone bust and wasn’t all my fault.. I deny that completely!

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 22:43:28
From: wookiemeister
ID: 1300319
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

cause of crash

driver has gone against protocol

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 22:45:12
From: sibeen
ID: 1300320
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Ian said:


sibeen said:

Ian said:

I did one for a few months back in the 80s… sales rep for an electronic components firm. A lot of the time I would just make half a dozen phone calls a day and write them up.. Only got the sack cause I couldn’t give a shit about the written reports.

Fkn slack.. never.

:)

Farnell?

George Brown Electronics.. long since gone bust and wasn’t all my fault.. I deny that completely!

It just sounded like every Farnell rep I ever met :)

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 22:50:06
From: Ian
ID: 1300321
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Cars are actually the odd one out that you have to apply pressure to get them to work, trains, trucks etc use a system exactly like that- spring loaded to automatically come on, air pressure is applied to release them…

I was under the impression that trains used vacuum brakes… no longer apparently..

“The vacuum brake is a braking system employed on trains and introduced in the mid-1860s. A variant, the automatic vacuum brake system, became almost universal in British train equipment and in countries influenced by British practice. Vacuum brakes also enjoyed a brief period of adoption in the United States, primarily on narrow-gauge railroads. Its limitations caused it to be progressively superseded by compressed air systems starting in the United Kingdom from the 1970s onward. The vacuum brake system is now obsolete; it is not in large-scale usage anywhere in the world, other than in South Africa, largely supplanted by air brakes.”

Reply Quote

Date: 7/11/2018 22:55:51
From: wookiemeister
ID: 1300324
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

there would have been a host of protocols the driver broke

locomotives can be disabled by removing the speed lever, the train doesn’t go anywhere without it

when you drive the locomotive into the shed the handle is placed at the front of the loco in a special holder to show the loco can’t be moved

Reply Quote

Date: 8/11/2018 08:22:05
From: transition
ID: 1300364
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

>Trains make expected noises, are drivers made aware of what they are and what noises they should not hear?

you could probably assume that if the train locomotives, any single one or number of throttled up after stopping, unexpectedly (these would be synchronized or tandemized throttles), that there was some kind of mechanical (or electrical) problem.

something for your planet-sized brain to work on.

Reply Quote

Date: 8/11/2018 11:30:04
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1300450
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

A simple UHF receiver coupled into the locomotive’s engine control

Receiver is set to listen to a specific frequency for a specific encrypted signal to slow down the engine and stop the engine.

A person waits for train to pass at a specific point, then transmits the encrypted slow down and stop signal.

or is performed remotely by the trains operators

Reply Quote

Date: 8/11/2018 11:33:46
From: captain_spalding
ID: 1300451
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Tau.Neutrino said:


A simple UHF receiver coupled into the locomotive’s engine control

Receiver is set to listen to a specific frequency for a specific encrypted signal to slow down the engine and stop the engine.

A person waits for train to pass at a specific point, then transmits the encrypted slow down and stop signal.

or is performed remotely by the trains operators

Or else BHP just gets told to suck it up, brace themselves for the savage dent in their billions of dollars of profit, and put a second person in the loco.

Reply Quote

Date: 8/11/2018 11:35:21
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1300452
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

captain_spalding said:


Tau.Neutrino said:

A simple UHF receiver coupled into the locomotive’s engine control

Receiver is set to listen to a specific frequency for a specific encrypted signal to slow down the engine and stop the engine.

A person waits for train to pass at a specific point, then transmits the encrypted slow down and stop signal.

or is performed remotely by the trains operators

Or else BHP just gets told to suck it up, brace themselves for the savage dent in their billions of dollars of profit, and put a second person in the loco.

Or that or some other remote engine control capability.

Reply Quote

Date: 8/11/2018 11:37:10
From: Cymek
ID: 1300453
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Perhaps what exists is adequate and this person just messed up

Reply Quote

Date: 8/11/2018 11:38:35
From: Cymek
ID: 1300455
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Tau.Neutrino said:


captain_spalding said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

A simple UHF receiver coupled into the locomotive’s engine control

Receiver is set to listen to a specific frequency for a specific encrypted signal to slow down the engine and stop the engine.

A person waits for train to pass at a specific point, then transmits the encrypted slow down and stop signal.

or is performed remotely by the trains operators

Or else BHP just gets told to suck it up, brace themselves for the savage dent in their billions of dollars of profit, and put a second person in the loco.

Or that or some other remote engine control capability.

Couldn’t you have a big red stop button on the side of engine carriage and press it when you hop out to check the train

Reply Quote

Date: 8/11/2018 11:39:21
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1300456
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Have a protocol of two drivers, but one driver stays in the cabin all times while train in service.

Reply Quote

Date: 8/11/2018 11:43:12
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1300458
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Cymek said:


Tau.Neutrino said:

captain_spalding said:

Or else BHP just gets told to suck it up, brace themselves for the savage dent in their billions of dollars of profit, and put a second person in the loco.

Or that or some other remote engine control capability.

Couldn’t you have a big red stop button on the side of engine carriage and press it when you hop out to check the train

or an anchor a link to the track when train is stopped.

then once the link is in place, if the link gets broken, it shuts down the engine.

Reply Quote

Date: 8/11/2018 11:48:49
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1300459
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Add in a black box with sound and video surveillance, engine running details, gps position, etc.

Reply Quote

Date: 8/11/2018 11:55:14
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1300461
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Cymek said:


Perhaps what exists is adequate and this person just messed up

Companies should remove or reduce the possibility of people messing up causing an accident, so far as is reasonably practicable.

That’s the law.

Reply Quote

Date: 8/11/2018 11:55:38
From: captain_spalding
ID: 1300462
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Cymek said:

Couldn’t you have a big red stop button on the side of engine carriage and press it when you hop out to check the train

Chain: $6.71 per metre at Bunnings

Decent padlock: $40.00, same place.

Chain the driver to the seat for the duration of the journey.

If he suspects there’s a problem with the train, he stops, radios in a report, and waits for help. Problems all solved.

Reply Quote

Date: 8/11/2018 11:57:48
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1300463
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Tau.Neutrino said:


Add in a black box with sound and video surveillance, engine running details, gps position, etc.

Also the black box would look at other details like is the speed lever out, are the brakes on, its the brake anchor engine kill switch engaged.

Reply Quote

Date: 8/11/2018 12:04:50
From: captain_spalding
ID: 1300464
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

‘The world’s largest robot made the world’s first completely automated iron ore delivery on Tuesday.

Rio Tinto’s autonomous train carried about 28,000 tonnes of iron ore more than 280 kilometres from Tom Price to the Cape Lambert port on July 10.

Not everyone is sold on the technology however with concerns raised by unions over the future of Rio Tinto’s train driver workforce. ‘ – Syd Morn Herald 13 July 2018

The future of Rio Tinto’s train driver workforce can be encapsulated in one word – ‘finite’.

Reply Quote

Date: 8/11/2018 12:06:23
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1300465
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

An engine kill switch could be a simple wire that extends out and a magnet secures it the to the track, if train moves switch is activated.

The black box monitors the wire switch and other protocols.

I like the UHF radio kill switch idea because the driver can carry a portable radio when off the train and can transmit a UHF stop signal to the engine if the driver notices if the train starts moving.

If driver has a heart attack, a helicopter, plane or 4WD / car can intercept the train and transmit the stop signal

Reply Quote

Date: 8/11/2018 12:07:36
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1300466
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

captain_spalding said:


‘The world’s largest robot made the world’s first completely automated iron ore delivery on Tuesday.

Rio Tinto’s autonomous train carried about 28,000 tonnes of iron ore more than 280 kilometres from Tom Price to the Cape Lambert port on July 10.

Not everyone is sold on the technology however with concerns raised by unions over the future of Rio Tinto’s train driver workforce. ‘ – Syd Morn Herald 13 July 2018

The future of Rio Tinto’s train driver workforce can be encapsulated in one word – ‘finite’.

Self Driving trains, can still have a remote engine control device.

Reply Quote

Date: 8/11/2018 12:10:42
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1300467
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

The Rev Dodgson said:


Cymek said:

Perhaps what exists is adequate and this person just messed up

Companies should remove or reduce the possibility of people messing up causing an accident, so far as is reasonably practicable.

That’s the law.

They send a team out to investigate then they make their recommendations based on their findings.

Reply Quote

Date: 8/11/2018 12:11:17
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1300468
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Like air crash investigations.

Reply Quote

Date: 8/11/2018 12:12:28
From: Cymek
ID: 1300470
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

captain_spalding said:


‘The world’s largest robot made the world’s first completely automated iron ore delivery on Tuesday.

Rio Tinto’s autonomous train carried about 28,000 tonnes of iron ore more than 280 kilometres from Tom Price to the Cape Lambert port on July 10.

Not everyone is sold on the technology however with concerns raised by unions over the future of Rio Tinto’s train driver workforce. ‘ – Syd Morn Herald 13 July 2018

The future of Rio Tinto’s train driver workforce can be encapsulated in one word – ‘finite’.

Progress isn’t it and jobs just disappear and nothing you can do.
Automated freight trains make sense anyway

Reply Quote

Date: 8/11/2018 12:19:18
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1300471
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Cymek said:


captain_spalding said:

‘The world’s largest robot made the world’s first completely automated iron ore delivery on Tuesday.

Rio Tinto’s autonomous train carried about 28,000 tonnes of iron ore more than 280 kilometres from Tom Price to the Cape Lambert port on July 10.

Not everyone is sold on the technology however with concerns raised by unions over the future of Rio Tinto’s train driver workforce. ‘ – Syd Morn Herald 13 July 2018

The future of Rio Tinto’s train driver workforce can be encapsulated in one word – ‘finite’.

Progress isn’t it and jobs just disappear and nothing you can do.
Automated freight trains make sense anyway

Yes.

Reply Quote

Date: 8/11/2018 12:22:21
From: poikilotherm
ID: 1300473
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Cymek said:


captain_spalding said:

‘The world’s largest robot made the world’s first completely automated iron ore delivery on Tuesday.

Rio Tinto’s autonomous train carried about 28,000 tonnes of iron ore more than 280 kilometres from Tom Price to the Cape Lambert port on July 10.

Not everyone is sold on the technology however with concerns raised by unions over the future of Rio Tinto’s train driver workforce. ‘ – Syd Morn Herald 13 July 2018

The future of Rio Tinto’s train driver workforce can be encapsulated in one word – ‘finite’.

Progress isn’t it and jobs just disappear and nothing you can do.
Automated freight trains make sense anyway

Has been ever thus as technology developed. Supposedly according to economic soothsayers and other astrologists, new jobs turn up to replace those lost in such circumstances.

Reply Quote

Date: 8/11/2018 12:26:45
From: Cymek
ID: 1300474
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

poikilotherm said:


Cymek said:

captain_spalding said:

‘The world’s largest robot made the world’s first completely automated iron ore delivery on Tuesday.

Rio Tinto’s autonomous train carried about 28,000 tonnes of iron ore more than 280 kilometres from Tom Price to the Cape Lambert port on July 10.

Not everyone is sold on the technology however with concerns raised by unions over the future of Rio Tinto’s train driver workforce. ‘ – Syd Morn Herald 13 July 2018

The future of Rio Tinto’s train driver workforce can be encapsulated in one word – ‘finite’.

Progress isn’t it and jobs just disappear and nothing you can do.
Automated freight trains make sense anyway

Has been ever thus as technology developed. Supposedly according to economic soothsayers and other astrologists, new jobs turn up to replace those lost in such circumstances.

Jobs involving driving for a living are quite likely to all be replaced in the next few decades by driverless vehicle and drone delivery

Reply Quote

Date: 8/11/2018 12:37:35
From: Witty Rejoinder
ID: 1300483
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

poikilotherm said:


Cymek said:

captain_spalding said:

‘The world’s largest robot made the world’s first completely automated iron ore delivery on Tuesday.

Rio Tinto’s autonomous train carried about 28,000 tonnes of iron ore more than 280 kilometres from Tom Price to the Cape Lambert port on July 10.

Not everyone is sold on the technology however with concerns raised by unions over the future of Rio Tinto’s train driver workforce. ‘ – Syd Morn Herald 13 July 2018

The future of Rio Tinto’s train driver workforce can be encapsulated in one word – ‘finite’.

Progress isn’t it and jobs just disappear and nothing you can do.
Automated freight trains make sense anyway

Has been ever thus as technology developed. Supposedly according to economic soothsayers and other astrologists, new jobs turn up to replace those lost in such circumstances.

You’re not convinced?

Reply Quote

Date: 8/11/2018 12:41:44
From: Cymek
ID: 1300490
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Witty Rejoinder said:


poikilotherm said:

Cymek said:

Progress isn’t it and jobs just disappear and nothing you can do.
Automated freight trains make sense anyway

Has been ever thus as technology developed. Supposedly according to economic soothsayers and other astrologists, new jobs turn up to replace those lost in such circumstances.

You’re not convinced?

Possible not jobs those who have lost them can do.
If all jobs involving driving were replaced by technology (which I imagine is millions worldwide) you couldn’t replace most of them.

Reply Quote

Date: 8/11/2018 12:42:16
From: Michael V
ID: 1300491
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Witty Rejoinder said:


poikilotherm said:

Cymek said:

Progress isn’t it and jobs just disappear and nothing you can do.
Automated freight trains make sense anyway

Has been ever thus as technology developed. Supposedly according to economic soothsayers and other astrologists, new jobs turn up to replace those lost in such circumstances.

You’re not convinced?

I think the (original, genuine) Luddites were proven incorrect in the long run.

Reply Quote

Date: 8/11/2018 12:46:58
From: Witty Rejoinder
ID: 1300497
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Cymek said:


Witty Rejoinder said:

poikilotherm said:

Has been ever thus as technology developed. Supposedly according to economic soothsayers and other astrologists, new jobs turn up to replace those lost in such circumstances.

You’re not convinced?

Possible not jobs those who have lost them can do.
If all jobs involving driving were replaced by technology (which I imagine is millions worldwide) you couldn’t replace most of them.

The digital disruption of the next decade or so will be greater and quicker than we’ve ever experienced but with rthe right preperation and policies it can be managed IMO. If the unemployment remains low we are halfway there.

Reply Quote

Date: 8/11/2018 12:49:29
From: poikilotherm
ID: 1300499
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Witty Rejoinder said:


Cymek said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

You’re not convinced?

Possible not jobs those who have lost them can do.
If all jobs involving driving were replaced by technology (which I imagine is millions worldwide) you couldn’t replace most of them.

The digital disruption of the next decade or so will be greater and quicker than we’ve ever experienced but with rthe right preperation and policies it can be managed IMO. If the unemployment remains low we are halfway there.

All praise the bullshit job ;)

Reply Quote

Date: 8/11/2018 12:59:03
From: Witty Rejoinder
ID: 1300503
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

poikilotherm said:


Witty Rejoinder said:

Cymek said:

Possible not jobs those who have lost them can do.
If all jobs involving driving were replaced by technology (which I imagine is millions worldwide) you couldn’t replace most of them.

The digital disruption of the next decade or so will be greater and quicker than we’ve ever experienced but with rthe right preperation and policies it can be managed IMO. If the unemployment remains low we are halfway there.

All praise the bullshit job ;)

Almost tl/dr. Anarchists don’t have the best record of predicting the future either I’m afraid. Even if they are ‘bullshit jobs’ they still contribute to real incomes that basically pay for the one field where technological advances make things more expensive not less: health-care.

Reply Quote

Date: 8/11/2018 13:00:01
From: Cymek
ID: 1300504
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

poikilotherm said:


Witty Rejoinder said:

Cymek said:

Possible not jobs those who have lost them can do.
If all jobs involving driving were replaced by technology (which I imagine is millions worldwide) you couldn’t replace most of them.

The digital disruption of the next decade or so will be greater and quicker than we’ve ever experienced but with rthe right preperation and policies it can be managed IMO. If the unemployment remains low we are halfway there.

All praise the bullshit job ;)

Quite true make society so complex that you need hundreds of thousands of people to run the public service and often the higher up the less needed they are. Lots of self indulgent jobs as well

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Date: 8/11/2018 13:02:38
From: Cymek
ID: 1300505
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Witty Rejoinder said:


poikilotherm said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

The digital disruption of the next decade or so will be greater and quicker than we’ve ever experienced but with rthe right preperation and policies it can be managed IMO. If the unemployment remains low we are halfway there.

All praise the bullshit job ;)

Almost tl/dr. Anarchists don’t have the best record of predicting the future either I’m afraid. Even if they are ‘bullshit jobs’ they still contribute to real incomes that basically pay for the one field where technological advances make things more expensive not less: health-care.

If health care wasn’t profit making and everything was at cost or free it would make a big difference
You seem to pay large sums of money to be healthly enough to work and in Australia we have a decent health system
Imagine being a third world nation like the USA were you pay a lot of money for treatment and you die and still have bills to pay

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Date: 8/11/2018 13:03:58
From: poikilotherm
ID: 1300507
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Witty Rejoinder said:


poikilotherm said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

The digital disruption of the next decade or so will be greater and quicker than we’ve ever experienced but with rthe right preperation and policies it can be managed IMO. If the unemployment remains low we are halfway there.

All praise the bullshit job ;)

Almost tl/dr. Anarchists don’t have the best record of predicting the future either I’m afraid. Even if they are ‘bullshit jobs’ they still contribute to real incomes that basically pay for the one field where technological advances make things more expensive not less: health-care.

It fits with shebs observation of some company he worked for/knows of.

But yea, anarchists are about as accurate as economists, I get that.
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Date: 8/11/2018 13:52:29
From: Witty Rejoinder
ID: 1300523
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

poikilotherm said:


Witty Rejoinder said:

poikilotherm said:

All praise the bullshit job ;)

Almost tl/dr. Anarchists don’t have the best record of predicting the future either I’m afraid. Even if they are ‘bullshit jobs’ they still contribute to real incomes that basically pay for the one field where technological advances make things more expensive not less: health-care.

It fits with shebs observation of some company he worked for/knows of.

But yea, anarchists are about as accurate as economists, I get that.

Different situation though. Large companies basically going out business are obviously going to have many employees that seem to have no rhyme or reason.

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Date: 8/11/2018 14:05:04
From: Michael V
ID: 1300525
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

poikilotherm said:


Witty Rejoinder said:

Cymek said:

Possible not jobs those who have lost them can do.
If all jobs involving driving were replaced by technology (which I imagine is millions worldwide) you couldn’t replace most of them.

The digital disruption of the next decade or so will be greater and quicker than we’ve ever experienced but with rthe right preperation and policies it can be managed IMO. If the unemployment remains low we are halfway there.

All praise the bullshit job ;)

Interesting notion, reasonably well written, but a bullshit article. Draws a long bow and even wider conclusions from limited and quite biased-in-their-choice “conspiratorial ruling class” anecdotes.

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Date: 8/11/2018 14:09:33
From: poikilotherm
ID: 1300528
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Michael V said:


poikilotherm said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

The digital disruption of the next decade or so will be greater and quicker than we’ve ever experienced but with rthe right preperation and policies it can be managed IMO. If the unemployment remains low we are halfway there.

All praise the bullshit job ;)

Interesting notion, reasonably well written, but a bullshit article. Draws a long bow and even wider conclusions from limited and quite biased-in-their-choice “conspiratorial ruling class” anecdotes.

heh, yea, I use only the best to wind up Witty.

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Date: 8/11/2018 14:10:41
From: Michael V
ID: 1300530
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

poikilotherm said:


Michael V said:

poikilotherm said:

All praise the bullshit job ;)

Interesting notion, reasonably well written, but a bullshit article. Draws a long bow and even wider conclusions from limited and quite biased-in-their-choice “conspiratorial ruling class” anecdotes.

heh, yea, I use only the best to wind up Witty.

Ha!

Sorry, I missed the intent…

:)

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Date: 8/11/2018 14:23:29
From: Cymek
ID: 1300547
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Michael V said:


poikilotherm said:

Michael V said:

Interesting notion, reasonably well written, but a bullshit article. Draws a long bow and even wider conclusions from limited and quite biased-in-their-choice “conspiratorial ruling class” anecdotes.

heh, yea, I use only the best to wind up Witty.

Ha!

Sorry, I missed the intent…

:)

It is a good way to keep people compliant though, make most of us dependant on work to live and make the cost of living which you need to work paid for by working

Reply Quote

Date: 8/11/2018 14:24:35
From: captain_spalding
ID: 1300551
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Cymek said:


way to keep people compliant though, make most of us dependant on work to live and make the cost of living which you need to work paid for by working

Keep ‘em busy. If you don’t, they might have time to start thinking.

Reply Quote

Date: 8/11/2018 15:07:48
From: Witty Rejoinder
ID: 1300590
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

captain_spalding said:


Cymek said:

way to keep people compliant though, make most of us dependant on work to live and make the cost of living which you need to work paid for by working

Keep ‘em busy. If you don’t, they might have time to start thinking.

Therefore the sage, in the exercise of his government, empties their minds, fills their bellies, weakens their wills, and strengthens their bones.

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Date: 8/11/2018 15:13:07
From: Michael V
ID: 1300596
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Michael V said:


sarahs mum said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Good, he might have a theory about iron ore train crashes.

Ni.
Phu.
Doo.
Doh.
Ni.
Ah.

PHOOOOOOOROOOOO.

*waves arms around.

Sounds as reasonable as the others. I’ll put it in the thread.

;)

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Date: 8/11/2018 15:17:21
From: captain_spalding
ID: 1300598
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Michael V said:


Michael V said:

sarahs mum said:

Ni.
Phu.
Doo.
Doh.
Ni.
Ah.

PHOOOOOOOROOOOO.

*waves arms around.

Sounds as reasonable as the others. I’ll put it in the thread.

;)

I have a theory about the brontosaurus. Well, not so much mine as it is Ann Elk’s.

Reply Quote

Date: 9/11/2018 14:39:01
From: dv
ID: 1300957
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-09/runaway-train-failed-to-respond-to-emergency-stop-attempt/10481598
The ATSB’s executive director of Transport Safety, Nat Nagy, said the train was being remotely loaded at a rail yard in Railton at about 8:42 am when it stopped responding to commands from the driver, who was outside the locomotive.

“The ATSB’s investigation has so far found that while loading, the last two wagons of the train were misaligned with the loading chute,” he said.

“The driver attempted to realign the wagons by selecting reverse on the remote control. However, the train was unresponsive.”

The driver tried unsuccessfully to reset the remote control equipment, and was about to walk to the lead locomotive when the train began rolling away towards Devonport.

Mr Nagy said the operator tried to activate the emergency stop command of the remote system.

“The ATSB’s investigation has also determined the train did not respond to emergency stop commands through the removal of power to the transmitter,” he said.

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Date: 9/11/2018 14:41:30
From: Bubblecar
ID: 1300960
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

>when the train began rolling away towards Devonport.

Surely Bass Strait would have slowed it down a bit.

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Date: 9/11/2018 15:13:48
From: captain_spalding
ID: 1300973
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

dv said:

“The ATSB’s investigation has also determined the train did not respond to emergency stop commands through the removal of power to the transmitter,” he said.

The batteries were flat?

Reply Quote

Date: 9/11/2018 15:22:02
From: sibeen
ID: 1300983
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

captain_spalding said:


dv said:

“The ATSB’s investigation has also determined the train did not respond to emergency stop commands through the removal of power to the transmitter,” he said.

The batteries were flat?

It should be a ‘fail safe’ type of operation so that if the batteries do go flat they the train stops.

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Date: 9/11/2018 15:22:30
From: fsm
ID: 1300984
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

I have ridden in a train engine with the driver a number of times and they all incorporated a dead mans device. Every few minutes an alarm would sound and the driver would have to operate a lever to cancel it otherwise the train would automatically come to a halt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead-man%27s_vigilance_device

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Date: 9/11/2018 15:23:36
From: dv
ID: 1300988
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

sibeen said:


captain_spalding said:

dv said:

“The ATSB’s investigation has also determined the train did not respond to emergency stop commands through the removal of power to the transmitter,” he said.

The batteries were flat?

It should be a ‘fail safe’ type of operation so that if the batteries do go flat they the train stops.

The bill for this (rail repair, the train and carriages itself, recovery of the ore, cleanup, costs of delays in delivery/ not meeting contracts) is going to be well into 9 digits so yeah I think they should probably take a look at that.

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Date: 9/11/2018 15:24:23
From: Arts
ID: 1300990
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

sibeen said:


captain_spalding said:

dv said:

“The ATSB’s investigation has also determined the train did not respond to emergency stop commands through the removal of power to the transmitter,” he said.

The batteries were flat?

It should be a ‘fail safe’ type of operation so that if the batteries do go flat they the train stops.

beep annoyingly like smoke alarms do

Reply Quote

Date: 9/11/2018 15:26:22
From: Michael V
ID: 1300994
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

dv said:


sibeen said:

captain_spalding said:

The batteries were flat?

It should be a ‘fail safe’ type of operation so that if the batteries do go flat they the train stops.

The bill for this (rail repair, the train and carriages itself, recovery of the ore, cleanup, costs of delays in delivery/ not meeting contracts) is going to be well into 9 digits so yeah I think they should probably take a look at that.

I’m sure they will.

Reply Quote

Date: 9/11/2018 15:27:26
From: poikilotherm
ID: 1300997
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

fsm said:


I have ridden in a train engine with the driver a number of times and they all incorporated a dead mans device. Every few minutes an alarm would sound and the driver would have to operate a lever to cancel it otherwise the train would automatically come to a halt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead-man%27s_vigilance_device

There was no driver in the train.

Reply Quote

Date: 9/11/2018 15:27:43
From: roughbarked
ID: 1300998
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Michael V said:


dv said:

sibeen said:

It should be a ‘fail safe’ type of operation so that if the batteries do go flat they the train stops.

The bill for this (rail repair, the train and carriages itself, recovery of the ore, cleanup, costs of delays in delivery/ not meeting contracts) is going to be well into 9 digits so yeah I think they should probably take a look at that.

I’m sure they will.

I think they’ll be forced to look at it.

Reply Quote

Date: 9/11/2018 15:28:17
From: roughbarked
ID: 1300999
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

poikilotherm said:


fsm said:

I have ridden in a train engine with the driver a number of times and they all incorporated a dead mans device. Every few minutes an alarm would sound and the driver would have to operate a lever to cancel it otherwise the train would automatically come to a halt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead-man%27s_vigilance_device

There was no driver in the train.

He was a long way behind.

Reply Quote

Date: 9/11/2018 15:29:26
From: fsm
ID: 1301001
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

poikilotherm said:


fsm said:

I have ridden in a train engine with the driver a number of times and they all incorporated a dead mans device. Every few minutes an alarm would sound and the driver would have to operate a lever to cancel it otherwise the train would automatically come to a halt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead-man%27s_vigilance_device

There was no driver in the train.

Exactly, so the dead mans device should stop the train.

Reply Quote

Date: 9/11/2018 15:30:44
From: poikilotherm
ID: 1301003
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

fsm said:


poikilotherm said:

fsm said:

I have ridden in a train engine with the driver a number of times and they all incorporated a dead mans device. Every few minutes an alarm would sound and the driver would have to operate a lever to cancel it otherwise the train would automatically come to a halt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead-man%27s_vigilance_device

There was no driver in the train.

Exactly, so the dead mans device should stop the train.

Must make it hard to use a remote control to move it around then…

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Date: 9/11/2018 15:33:36
From: dv
ID: 1301008
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

Then again, after MH370 disappeared, there was plenty of talk about putting untouchable transponders in the tail of aircraft, but industry complained about the cost so it wasn’t implemented.

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Date: 9/11/2018 15:36:17
From: roughbarked
ID: 1301011
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

fsm said:


poikilotherm said:

fsm said:

I have ridden in a train engine with the driver a number of times and they all incorporated a dead mans device. Every few minutes an alarm would sound and the driver would have to operate a lever to cancel it otherwise the train would automatically come to a halt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead-man%27s_vigilance_device

There was no driver in the train.

Exactly, so the dead mans device should stop the train.

Clearly it wasn’t working then.

Reply Quote

Date: 9/11/2018 15:40:30
From: captain_spalding
ID: 1301021
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

roughbarked said:


fsm said:

poikilotherm said:

There was no driver in the train.

Exactly, so the dead mans device should stop the train.

Clearly it wasn’t working then.

It was dead, man.

Reply Quote

Date: 9/11/2018 15:41:12
From: roughbarked
ID: 1301023
Subject: re: BHP Train derailment

captain_spalding said:


roughbarked said:

fsm said:

Exactly, so the dead mans device should stop the train.

Clearly it wasn’t working then.

It was dead, man.

Thanks Jim.

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