Date: 11/11/2018 01:43:55
From: sarahs mum
ID: 1301936
Subject: Wot Barry said...

Barry Jones
Saving Planet Earth

Historians and political scientists have classified recent world history into two distinct periods, with the end of World War II as the dividing line.

The period from 1901 to 1945 was marked by aggressive nationalism – trade wars, high tariffs, brutal colonialism, World War I, totalitarian rule in Russia, Italy, Germany, the Leninist–Stalinist model of Communism, Fascism, Nazism, the Great Depression, World War II, the Holocaust.

From 1945 to the present, as Christopher Browning recently put it in The New York Review of Books, “the post-World War II structure of interlocking diplomatic, military and economic agreements and organizations … have preserved peace, stability and prosperity”. People are living far longer, even in the developing world. Life expectancy, globally, is now 70.5 years. Infant mortality has fallen, female liberation still has a long way to go but is much improved, and the threat of global war is remote.

This latter era has not been without conflict, of course – wars in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, civil wars in parts of Africa, the Middle East, Asia and the Balkans, the Cold War, nuclear threats and Stalinist control of Eastern Europe until 1989, Mao’s purges and famines in China, terrorism, mass displacement of refugees. Corrupt regimes remain commonplace. Increased consumption levels are destroying the environment and polluting air, sea and land.
Like Trump, Morrison is fundamentally incurious. On issues raised with him, he either knows the answers already, or has no desire to hear the case for and against a proposition.

Central among the threats we face in this post-World War II era, though, is the wrecking ball approach United States president Donald Trump has taken to the United Nations, the European Union, NATO, the Paris accords on climate change, the G8, the World Trade Organization, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the International Monetary Fund and any other organisation that attempts to address global issues. We can observe the rise not of totalitarianism but of “illiberal democracy”, a model that operates in Russia, Turkey, Hungary, Poland and now Brazil. It may well be entrenched in the US. China is a special case, mixing the worst elements of capitalism with authoritarian one-party rule.

Of course, there are existential struggles, too. Vested interest and the short term are preferenced above the long-term public interest in the US, Australia and many other nations. Homo sapiens has been transformed to Homo economicus. All values have a dollar equivalent. If politicians cannot place an economic value on maintaining the rule of law with refugees or taking strong action to mitigate climate change, then they are not worth pursuing. Universities have become trading corporations. With “fake news”, people can choose their own reality. Science is discounted. Opinion is more important than evidence. The politics of anger and resentment displaces the politics of rationality and optimism.

In Australia, both the Coalition and the Labor Party have demonstrably failed to show leadership on important issues. We are still reliant on coal for our electricity, despite the fact it’s a central factor in global warming. Transition to a post-carbon economy, rejecting punitive, populist and opportunistic policies about refugees, rejecting racism, involving the parliament in determining foreign policy and defence, restoring confidence in our public institutions, developing a bill of rights, promoting community cohesion, understanding the causes of terrorism and proposing rational ways of handling it, corruption in our system, and the corrosive impact of lobbying by gambling, coal and junk food vested interests – all intractable in our political deadlock.

The IT revolution, with capacity for instant retrieval of the world’s knowledge, might have been expected to raise the quality of political engagement and debate. Instead, social media has debased it. Cruelty and ignorance have become tradeable commodities in Australian politics and many politicians are comfortable with that. Debate has been oversimplified and infantilised.

Prime Minister Scott Morrison could be described as Trump Lite plus a combination of toe-curling folksiness, condescension and religiosity. Like President Trump, he is fundamentally incurious. On issues raised with him, he either knows the answers already, or has no desire to hear the case for and against a proposition. He is essentially a door-to-door salesman, a Willy Loman, who relates as well as he can to each client, tells them what they want to hear, then moves on to the next door.

“Boy! Have I got an offer for you. Moving the Australian embassy in Israel to Jerusalem! Offer expires on Saturday, October 20 at 6pm.”

“Linking the drought with climate change? Well, that’s not an issue I have thought about very much. My main interest is getting your power bill down…”

“Or you can have a set of steak knives…”

It shouldn’t be this way. Australia today has a formal level of professional qualifications incomparably higher than any cohort in our history since British colonisation. According to the Australian Bureau of Statistics, there are more than 6.5 million graduates now living in Australia, 27 per cent of the population – nearly 14 times more than in the 1970s.

That ought to mean that the level of community engagement and commitment to working out complex issues and finding solutions ought to be at an unprecedented level. Right?

Well, no.

It could be argued, depressingly, that there is an inverse relationship between the growth of universities and the level of community engagement in politics. In fact, the level of political discourse was far more sophisticated in 1860s America than it is today in 2018 in either country.

In 1860, Abraham Lincoln became the first Republican Party candidate to be elected president of the United States. At that time, access to education was rather primitive, except in some cities on the east coast, with limited communication by railways, roads, canals, telegraph, newspapers and postal services.

Lincoln was reflective and self-doubting. He talked in testable propositions, evidence-based, with sentences, paragraphs and chapters. He appealed to “the better angels of our nature”. He never used his own name in a speech. He never talked down to his listeners. He wrote wonderful letters.

On February 27, 1860, six months before his election as president, Lincoln delivered a very complex speech about slavery and its political implications at the Cooper Union in New York City. It was his first speech in New York and its impact was dramatic.

Four New York newspapers published the full text – 7500 words – and it was reprinted in hundreds of different formats throughout the nation. The speech rapidly transformed Lincoln from being merely a “favourite son” from Illinois to a national figure. It was a major factor in securing him the Republican nomination for president.

In 1860, the technology was primitive but the ideas in Lincoln’s speech were profound. His political views, published on broadsheets throughout the nation, were extremely subtle and nuanced, without bitterness, personal attack or exaggeration. He could always see the other side of an argument and often set it out, fairly. He was widely read but kept his religion (if any) to himself.

As he told congress in 1862: “The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present … As our new, so we must think anew, and act anew. We must disenthrall ourselves … We cannot escape history. We … will be remembered in spite of ourselves …”

Lincoln delivered his famous Gettysburg Address in November 1863 at the dedication of a Civil War cemetery.

I have long speculated what Lincoln might have said in 2018.

Lincoln’s speech was only 272 words long. My draft is exactly the same length. There are 12 echoes of Lincoln’s text in mine, the words in inverted commas are Margaret Thatcher’s from 1988:

Eighteen years ago, humanity entered the 21st century, facing unprecedented challenges. Global population expands, life expectancy – both in rich and poor nations – and consumption levels rise unsustainably.

Earth’s raw materials are finite. Water, forests, arable land are under increasing pressure, compounded by “a massive experiment with the system of the planet itself” causing climate change and extreme weather events. Rich, powerful nations exploit weak, paralysed states.

Now we are engaged in a great global conflict of values. Gaps between inconceivable wealth and desperate dispossession create political instability, encouraging terrorism and fundamentalism.

Although science and technology annihilate boundaries, nations turn inward, reinforcing tribal values; political leaders retreat from global goals of compassion, reconciliation and mutual understanding. There is widespread racism, nationalism, militarism, religious hatred, democratic populism, suppression of dissent; we’re using propaganda, resolving problems by violence, promoting fear of difference, attacking organised labour, weakening the rule of law, using state violence, torture, execution. Evidence-based policies are displaced by appeals to fear and anger.

The great tasks before us are to dedicate ourselves to recognise that environment and economy are inextricably linked, and act accordingly. The human condition is fragile, and we must abandon rigid thinking, confusing prejudice with principle.

We must consecrate ourselves to saving Planet Earth, our home, where our species, Homo sapiens, lives and depends for survival. All nations, and all people, must dedicate themselves to protecting our global home rather than the short-term national, regional or tribal interest. We must highly resolve to save the air, save the soil, save the oceans to guarantee that our species, and the noblest aspects of its culture, shall not perish from the Earth.

https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/opinion/topic/2018/11/10/saving-planet-earth/15417684007117

Reply Quote

Date: 11/11/2018 02:49:58
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1301941
Subject: re: Wot Barry said...

> Earth’s raw materials are finite.

I used to believe that, used to worry about it all the time.

But it isn’t actually true. Because of the conservation of mass, no raw material is ever used up. It’s still sitting there ready to be used again and again and again. Forever.

Reply Quote

Date: 11/11/2018 11:12:55
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1301968
Subject: re: Wot Barry said...

mollwollfumble said:


> Earth’s raw materials are finite.

I used to believe that, used to worry about it all the time.

But it isn’t actually true. Because of the conservation of mass, no raw material is ever used up. It’s still sitting there ready to be used again and again and again. Forever.

It’s true enough that the elements will be around on Earth, as long as the Earth lasts, but CO2 and H20 distributed through the atmosphere and oceans are not quite so convenient for extraction of energy as fossil fuels are, are they?

Reply Quote

Date: 11/11/2018 11:14:40
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1301970
Subject: re: Wot Barry said...

Thanks for the link Sarah’s Mum.

It’s a shame politicians seem to have to wait until they have retired before they can start talking sense.

Reply Quote

Date: 11/11/2018 11:17:42
From: captain_spalding
ID: 1301971
Subject: re: Wot Barry said...

The Rev Dodgson said:


Thanks for the link Sarah’s Mum.

It’s a shame politicians seem to have to wait until they have retired before they can start talking sense.

The ALP of the 70s had a couple who regularly talked sense while in office.

The Two Barrys (Jones and Cohen) were examples. The hard part was for them to be heard over the hubbub of factional fighting and subservience to various pressure groups.

Reply Quote

Date: 11/11/2018 11:19:45
From: captain_spalding
ID: 1301973
Subject: re: Wot Barry said...

Barry Jones’s article does contain the best summation of Scott Morrison that i’ve seen so far:

‘Prime Minister Scott Morrison could be described as Trump Lite plus a combination of toe-curling folksiness, condescension and religiosity. Like President Trump, he is fundamentally incurious. On issues raised with him, he either knows the answers already, or has no desire to hear the case for and against a proposition. He is essentially a door-to-door salesman, a Willy Loman, who relates as well as he can to each client, tells them what they want to hear, then moves on to the next door.’

Reply Quote

Date: 11/11/2018 11:20:47
From: JudgeMental
ID: 1301974
Subject: re: Wot Barry said...

captain_spalding said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

Thanks for the link Sarah’s Mum.

It’s a shame politicians seem to have to wait until they have retired before they can start talking sense.

The ALP of the 70s had a couple who regularly talked sense while in office.

The Two Barrys (Jones and Cohen) were examples. The hard part was for them to be heard over the hubbub of factional fighting and subservience to various pressure groups.

Barry Jones and his “spaghetti and meatball” mindmap.

Reply Quote

Date: 11/11/2018 11:22:56
From: JudgeMental
ID: 1301976
Subject: re: Wot Barry said...

JudgeMental said:


captain_spalding said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Thanks for the link Sarah’s Mum.

It’s a shame politicians seem to have to wait until they have retired before they can start talking sense.

The ALP of the 70s had a couple who regularly talked sense while in office.

The Two Barrys (Jones and Cohen) were examples. The hard part was for them to be heard over the hubbub of factional fighting and subservience to various pressure groups.

Barry Jones and his “spaghetti and meatball” mindmap.

http://math.haifa.ac.il/yair/The-Funneled-Web-archive-(2001-2013)RIP/Old_Editorials/ed-05_07_01.htm

Reply Quote

Date: 11/11/2018 11:23:27
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1301977
Subject: re: Wot Barry said...

captain_spalding said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

Thanks for the link Sarah’s Mum.

It’s a shame politicians seem to have to wait until they have retired before they can start talking sense.

The ALP of the 70s had a couple who regularly talked sense while in office.

The Two Barrys (Jones and Cohen) were examples. The hard part was for them to be heard over the hubbub of factional fighting and subservience to various pressure groups.

Yes, probably a bit harsh on Barry J. I had Malcolm Fraser more in mind.

Reply Quote

Date: 11/11/2018 11:23:42
From: captain_spalding
ID: 1301978
Subject: re: Wot Barry said...

JudgeMental said:


captain_spalding said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Thanks for the link Sarah’s Mum.

It’s a shame politicians seem to have to wait until they have retired before they can start talking sense.

The ALP of the 70s had a couple who regularly talked sense while in office.

The Two Barrys (Jones and Cohen) were examples. The hard part was for them to be heard over the hubbub of factional fighting and subservience to various pressure groups.

Barry Jones and his “spaghetti and meatball” mindmap.

Barry had some good ideas, but he was really shithouse when it came to selling them.

Reply Quote

Date: 11/11/2018 11:25:48
From: JudgeMental
ID: 1301979
Subject: re: Wot Barry said...

captain_spalding said:


JudgeMental said:

captain_spalding said:

The ALP of the 70s had a couple who regularly talked sense while in office.

The Two Barrys (Jones and Cohen) were examples. The hard part was for them to be heard over the hubbub of factional fighting and subservience to various pressure groups.

Barry Jones and his “spaghetti and meatball” mindmap.

Barry had some good ideas, but he was really shithouse when it came to selling them.

probably thought his audience was smarter than it actually was.

Reply Quote

Date: 11/11/2018 11:26:24
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1301980
Subject: re: Wot Barry said...

JudgeMental said:


JudgeMental said:

captain_spalding said:

The ALP of the 70s had a couple who regularly talked sense while in office.

The Two Barrys (Jones and Cohen) were examples. The hard part was for them to be heard over the hubbub of factional fighting and subservience to various pressure groups.

Barry Jones and his “spaghetti and meatball” mindmap.

http://math.haifa.ac.il/yair/The-Funneled-Web-archive-(2001-2013)RIP/Old_Editorials/ed-05_07_01.htm

The family Jones is a worry
There’s Dave and there’s Al and there’s Borry
Dave’s produce is junk
Al’s opinions are bunk
And no-one can understand Borry.

With apologies to the family Stein.

Reply Quote

Date: 11/11/2018 11:27:02
From: captain_spalding
ID: 1301981
Subject: re: Wot Barry said...

JudgeMental said:


captain_spalding said:

JudgeMental said:

Barry Jones and his “spaghetti and meatball” mindmap.

Barry had some good ideas, but he was really shithouse when it came to selling them.

probably thought his audience was smarter than it actually was.

He didn’t talk down to people, but at the same time had little patience for those who couldn’t keep up.

Reply Quote

Date: 11/11/2018 11:27:15
From: Peak Warming Man
ID: 1301982
Subject: re: Wot Barry said...

The Rev Dodgson said:


captain_spalding said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Thanks for the link Sarah’s Mum.

It’s a shame politicians seem to have to wait until they have retired before they can start talking sense.

The ALP of the 70s had a couple who regularly talked sense while in office.

The Two Barrys (Jones and Cohen) were examples. The hard part was for them to be heard over the hubbub of factional fighting and subservience to various pressure groups.

Yes, probably a bit harsh on Barry J. I had Malcolm Fraser more in mind.

I thought you had Mark Latham in mind.

Reply Quote

Date: 11/11/2018 11:28:38
From: captain_spalding
ID: 1301983
Subject: re: Wot Barry said...

Peak Warming Man said:

I thought you had Mark Latham in mind.

Latham is the Labor equivalent of Tony Abbott, but rather farther over the edge and with considerably more froth at the mouth.

Reply Quote

Date: 11/11/2018 11:29:49
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1301984
Subject: re: Wot Barry said...

Peak Warming Man said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

captain_spalding said:

The ALP of the 70s had a couple who regularly talked sense while in office.

The Two Barrys (Jones and Cohen) were examples. The hard part was for them to be heard over the hubbub of factional fighting and subservience to various pressure groups.

Yes, probably a bit harsh on Barry J. I had Malcolm Fraser more in mind.

I thought you had Mark Latham in mind.

:)

But he hasn’t resigned from political life yet.

If he resigned so he could tell us all what he really thinks, that would be a good thing.

Reply Quote

Date: 11/11/2018 11:34:03
From: Ian
ID: 1301985
Subject: re: Wot Barry said...

captain_spalding said:


Barry Jones’s article does contain the best summation of Scott Morrison that i’ve seen so far:

‘Prime Minister Scott Morrison could be described as Trump Lite plus a combination of toe-curling folksiness, condescension and religiosity. Like President Trump, he is fundamentally incurious. On issues raised with him, he either knows the answers already, or has no desire to hear the case for and against a proposition. He is essentially a door-to-door salesman, a Willy Loman, who relates as well as he can to each client, tells them what they want to hear, then moves on to the next door.’

Yes, nails him.

Reply Quote

Date: 11/11/2018 12:31:11
From: Michael V
ID: 1301993
Subject: re: Wot Barry said...

captain_spalding said:


JudgeMental said:

captain_spalding said:

Barry had some good ideas, but he was really shithouse when it came to selling them.

probably thought his audience was smarter than it actually was.

He didn’t talk down to people, but at the same time had little patience for those who couldn’t keep up.

I had an hour-long serious discussion with Barry Jones after an anti-nukes political rally. We were hidden in plain sight at a milk-bar in Armidale. He shouted the milk shakes. He certainly didn’t talk down to me.

Reply Quote

Date: 11/11/2018 12:38:35
From: sarahs mum
ID: 1301996
Subject: re: Wot Barry said...

Michael V said:


captain_spalding said:

JudgeMental said:

probably thought his audience was smarter than it actually was.

He didn’t talk down to people, but at the same time had little patience for those who couldn’t keep up.

I had an hour-long serious discussion with Barry Jones after an anti-nukes political rally. We were hidden in plain sight at a milk-bar in Armidale. He shouted the milk shakes. He certainly didn’t talk down to me.

I have always been a Barry fan. So was my Dad.

He was wasted as a numbers man for the party.

Reply Quote

Date: 11/11/2018 12:39:24
From: roughbarked
ID: 1301997
Subject: re: Wot Barry said...

sarahs mum said:


Michael V said:

captain_spalding said:

He didn’t talk down to people, but at the same time had little patience for those who couldn’t keep up.

I had an hour-long serious discussion with Barry Jones after an anti-nukes political rally. We were hidden in plain sight at a milk-bar in Armidale. He shouted the milk shakes. He certainly didn’t talk down to me.

I have always been a Barry fan. So was my Dad.

He was wasted as a numbers man for the party.

I was always a Barry fan too.

Reply Quote

Date: 11/11/2018 12:46:30
From: Ian
ID: 1301998
Subject: re: Wot Barry said...

Michael V said:


captain_spalding said:

JudgeMental said:

probably thought his audience was smarter than it actually was.

He didn’t talk down to people, but at the same time had little patience for those who couldn’t keep up.

I had an hour-long serious discussion with Barry Jones after an anti-nukes political rally. We were hidden in plain sight at a milk-bar in Armidale. He shouted the milk shakes. He certainly didn’t talk down to me.

:)

I’ve never pictured you as a demo type bloke.

What topics did the discussion with BOJ cover. Did you feel your cranium starting to crack at any point?

Reply Quote

Date: 11/11/2018 17:00:50
From: buffy
ID: 1302062
Subject: re: Wot Barry said...

Michael V said:


captain_spalding said:

JudgeMental said:

probably thought his audience was smarter than it actually was.

He didn’t talk down to people, but at the same time had little patience for those who couldn’t keep up.

I had an hour-long serious discussion with Barry Jones after an anti-nukes political rally. We were hidden in plain sight at a milk-bar in Armidale. He shouted the milk shakes. He certainly didn’t talk down to me.

Many years ago Barry Jones was the opening speaker at an optometry conference. I cannot now remember what he talked about, but my abiding impression was that he was boring. Which was a shame, because I had intended to be interested.

Reply Quote

Date: 12/11/2018 02:55:30
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1302271
Subject: re: Wot Barry said...

JudgeMental said:


captain_spalding said:

The ALP of the 70s had a couple who regularly talked sense while in office.

The Two Barrys (Jones and Cohen) were examples. The hard part was for them to be heard over the hubbub of factional fighting and subservience to various pressure groups.

Barry Jones and his “spaghetti and meatball” mindmap.

http://math.haifa.ac.il/yair/The-Funneled-Web-archive-(2001-2013)RIP/Old_Editorials/ed-05_07_01.htm

Not a good mindmap.

The ALP have never been able to sell anything. The Libs used to get away with murder in their ads, like blaming Labour for problems the Libs were 100% responsible for.

Barry Jones was the best Minister for Science I’ve ever known. But even under Barry, CSIRO’s budget did not increase.

Reply Quote

Date: 12/11/2018 21:46:11
From: dv
ID: 1302602
Subject: re: Wot Barry said...

The press used to pay out on Barry for using words such as boondoggle, specificity, and cadastre. They called his Knowledge Nation diagram “Noodle nation”. This really saddened me because it basically meant that having an adult vocabulary and being able to draw and understand diagrams was a disadvantage in Australia.

Reply Quote

Date: 12/11/2018 21:47:48
From: sibeen
ID: 1302604
Subject: re: Wot Barry said...

dv said:


The press used to pay out on Barry for using words such as boondoggle, specificity, and cadastre. They called his Knowledge Nation diagram “Noodle nation”. This really saddened me because it basically meant that having an adult vocabulary and being able to draw and understand diagrams was a disadvantage in Australia.

OK, I had to look cadastre up. Never heard it before.

Reply Quote

Date: 12/11/2018 22:38:21
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1302615
Subject: re: Wot Barry said...

dv said:


The press used to pay out on Barry for using words such as boondoggle, specificity, and cadastre. They called his Knowledge Nation diagram “Noodle nation”. This really saddened me because it basically meant that having an adult vocabulary and being able to draw and understand diagrams was a disadvantage in Australia.

Well for a politician maybe.

I mean you have an adult vocabulary, and I expect you can draw, but I don’t imagine those abilities are a drawback in your line of work.

Reply Quote

Date: 12/11/2018 23:24:35
From: Witty Rejoinder
ID: 1302625
Subject: re: Wot Barry said...

dv said:


The press used to pay out on Barry for using words such as boondoggle, specificity, and cadastre. They called his Knowledge Nation diagram “Noodle nation”. This really saddened me because it basically meant that having an adult vocabulary and being able to draw and understand diagrams was a disadvantage in Australia.

Boy that takes me back: Honestly it would have to be one of the most useless diagrams ever…

https://twitter.com/smurray38/status/674731362579046400

Reply Quote

Date: 12/11/2018 23:28:29
From: sarahs mum
ID: 1302628
Subject: re: Wot Barry said...

Witty Rejoinder said:


dv said:

The press used to pay out on Barry for using words such as boondoggle, specificity, and cadastre. They called his Knowledge Nation diagram “Noodle nation”. This really saddened me because it basically meant that having an adult vocabulary and being able to draw and understand diagrams was a disadvantage in Australia.

Boy that takes me back: Honestly it would have to be one of the most useless diagrams ever…

https://twitter.com/smurray38/status/674731362579046400

Lots of these around art school. this one makes more sense than some I have seen.

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