the photo shows a lot of new red shoots sprouting vertically up from the branches of this lemon tree.
these are all ‘water shoots’ – useless male branches that produce no fruit – i think ?
i’m about to pull them all off.

if i’m wrong please scream ‘stop’ .

the title disappeared when i previewed.

pepe said:

the photo shows a lot of new red shoots sprouting vertically up from the branches of this lemon tree.
these are all ‘water shoots’ – useless male branches that produce no fruit – i think ?
i’m about to pull them all off.

if i’m wrong please scream ‘stop’ .

I’d recommend that you do some reading first.

http://www.abc.net.au/gardening/stories/s657303.htm
http://www.burkesbackyard.com.au/factsheets/Herbs-Fruit-and-Vegetables/Best-Backyard-Citrus/2132
http://www.agric.wa.gov.au/content/hort/fn/cp/citrusfruits/fn060_1995.pdf

I’d recommend that you do some reading first.
———-
ok – i’ve read them – and i still don’t know for absolute certain.
they look like suckers coming off the branches to me – they’ll overload the branches and create too much dense foliage.
so they’re still coming off
thanks for the refs.

this is the clearest image i can get.
there are 8-12 of these shoots/suckers on the horizontal branches (laterals?).

I’d clean them off too Pepe. Especially the ones closest to the main trunk and any that will eventually cross other branches. If you have tip pruned your tree recently this can happen.

Happy Potter said:

I’d clean them off too Pepe. Especially the ones closest to the main trunk and any that will eventually cross other branches. If you have tip pruned your tree recently this can happen.

OK yes you do need to open the tree to get light inside.. but why do you need to dothat?

Well it is like this. When the tree is too dense and shady the main trunk of the tree can become diseased and the growth point of the branches are too far away from the trunk.. so opening and allowing light in makes new shoots. Then, you decide to cut these new shoots off when you should be taking all that woody stuff out by shortening the branches to the healthy shoots.. How many lemons do you need each year? as against How long do you want your lemon tree to be healthy and producing lemons?

I’d have shortened back to the best verticals if my lemon tree had that much useless non-bearing wood.

I’d have shortened back to the best verticals if my lemon tree had that much useless non-bearing wood.
——————————
i’m trying to imagine how that would look.

My Meyer lemon grew a whole lot of what I thought was these so called “male shoots” and they are now loaded with blossoms.

pepe said:

I’d have shortened back to the best verticals if my lemon tree had that much useless non-bearing wood.
——————————
i’m trying to imagine how that would look.

If you do it at the right time.. of year

it may look ugly for a short time

If you do it at the wrong time of year it may look ugly for a much longer time .. or in many cases .. forever.

My lime tree had lots of new water shoots 2 years ago. I didn’t cut them off, but have since pruned it twice. The side of the tree with the new shoots has never had a blossom.

orchid40 said:

My lime tree had lots of new water shoots 2 years ago. I didn’t cut them off, but have since pruned it twice. The side of the tree with the new shoots has never had a blossom.

Let me first inform all of you that I only ever prune dead wood and old wood from citrus of any type and I have more fruit than I can poke a stick at.

Pruning of citrus is mostly totally unnecessary. However fruiting does not occur on old branches. The citrus tree fruits on mature wood yes but next years fruit depends upon this years growth.

Pruning of citrus is mostly totally unnecessary. However fruiting does not occur on old branches. The citrus tree fruits on mature wood yes but next years fruit depends upon this years growth.
—————————-
but you have said (i think) that you cut long branches (skirting) back to a vigorous vertical shoot, cut out the centre for more sun penetration and remove dead wood.
i suspect most of these vertical shoots must be removed or else it would end up as impenetrable.
if they are next years fruiting stems then how many do i need ? the fewer i have the bigger and better the fruit.

pepe said:

Pruning of citrus is mostly totally unnecessary. However fruiting does not occur on old branches. The citrus tree fruits on mature wood yes but next years fruit depends upon this years growth.
—————————-
but you have said (i think) that you cut long branches (skirting) back to a vigorous vertical shoot, cut out the centre for more sun penetration and remove dead wood.
i suspect most of these vertical shoots must be removed or else it would end up as impenetrable.
if they are next years fruiting stems then how many do i need ? the fewer i have the bigger and better the fruit.

I suggested you read before you chopped.

that is all

The whole tree is in front of you, not me.

It isn’t necessarily obout how few branches you have.
It is about the health of the tree.

Your proposal .. or how I read it ; was to cut off all vigorous healthy growths and leave woody lateral stems.

I propose that you rethink the photos you posted in that light.

I suggested you read before you chopped. that is all. The whole tree is in front of you, not me.
It isn’t necessarily obout how few branches you have. It is about the health of the tree.
Your proposal .. or how I read it ; was to cut off all vigorous healthy growths and leave woody lateral stems. I propose that you rethink the photos you posted in that light.
——————————————————
ok – and thanks – its hard to express pruning procedures.
my tree is only 3-4 y.o. so far i’ve kept the height down but not had to prune dead wood. obviously i’m entering a new phase in pruning.

pepe said:

I suggested you read before you chopped. that is all. The whole tree is in front of you, not me.
It isn’t necessarily obout how few branches you have. It is about the health of the tree.
Your proposal .. or how I read it ; was to cut off all vigorous healthy growths and leave woody lateral stems. I propose that you rethink the photos you posted in that light.
——————————————————
ok – and thanks – its hard to express pruning procedures.
my tree is only 3-4 y.o. so far i’ve kept the height down but not had to prune dead wood. obviously i’m entering a new phase in pruning.

Citrus trees will start to shade themselves as they grow and often this results in shaded branches dying off.
There is no such thing as a “male” branch.

What I was trying to tell you was that cutting all the green new shoots which always grow towards the sun(vertically) until they bear fruit which makes them bend with the weight., will be cutting the new growth and leaving the old. Thus the old branch will have to find some new energy and grow some more new shoots. By doing this you would be causing your tree more stress.

Thus the old branch will have to find some new energy and grow some more new shoots. By doing this you would be causing your tree more stress.
—————-
ok that’s helpful.
i can see now that much of the new growth is at the end of already long branches and if i prune them (which i will) then these vertical new growths are the best new growth left.

no males eh ? who does all the work then ? LOL

pepe said:

Thus the old branch will have to find some new energy and grow some more new shoots. By doing this you would be causing your tree more stress.
—————-
ok that’s helpful.
i can see now that much of the new growth is at the end of already long branches and if i prune them (which i will) then these vertical new growths are the best new growth left.

no males eh ? who does all the work then ? LOL

Glad you caught on to what I was trying to say.. ;)

males.. citrus are not dioecious plants.. in citrus the male and female parts are part of the same flower, on the same branch.

no males eh ? who does all the work then ? LOL

Glad you caught on to what I was trying to say.. ;)

males.. citrus are not dioecious plants.. in citrus the male and female parts are part of the same flower, on the same branch.

Well someone has been spreading incorrect info then! (Not here I suspect) I know I’ve been told by someone that the new long shoots are sterile. Oh well. I have to prune mine as if it gets too tall it shades fruit trees behind it. It has had blossom and fruit on old growth quite low down. Usually the fruit drops off due to a sudden change in temperature or inadequate watering.( It didn’t get watered properly this year while I was away) I will leave this year’s new growth and see what happens. Thanks for the info RB.

Well someone has been spreading incorrect info then! (Not here I suspect) I know I’ve been told by someone that the new long shoots are sterile. Oh well. I have to prune mine as if it gets too tall it shades fruit trees behind it.
——
oh dear – i took off all my ‘water shoots’ last year and the source of the rumours might have been here.
i went to a lecture where it was indicated as the right thing to do – and i do think a lot of them have to go. you pull them off rather than cut.

pepe said:

Well someone has been spreading incorrect info then! (Not here I suspect) I know I’ve been told by someone that the new long shoots are sterile. Oh well. I have to prune mine as if it gets too tall it shades fruit trees behind it.
——
oh dear – i took off all my ‘water shoots’ last year and the source of the rumours might have been here.
i went to a lecture where it was indicated as the right thing to do – and i do think a lot of them have to go. you pull them off rather than cut.

pruning is only necessary to shape trees or to reduce fruiting levels. Or to allow light in.
Most of the above are not the norm. Rather more irregularly required.

I’d suggest that you were shown how to allow light in or reduce the crop size. Neither of which is necessary every season.

if you had read this pdf. you wouldn’t have needed to ask. http://www.agric.wa.gov.au/content/hort/fn/cp/citrusfruits/fn060_1995.pdf

Citrus trees need leaves.. It is normal practice not to cut them off.

roughbarked said:

if you had read this pdf. you wouldn’t have needed to ask. http://www.agric.wa.gov.au/content/hort/fn/cp/citrusfruits/fn060_1995.pdf

Citrus trees need leaves.. It is normal practice not to cut them off.

Thanks RB. I have bookmarked the article.

I’ve been googling and there’s a lot there saying to prune off water shoots, but I suspect the problem is what exactly IS a water shoot.
In roses water shoots are new growth from the base ,above the graft.

I can’t find anything that defines what is meant by a water shoot in citrus so there may be a confusion of terms. Only one site actually mentioned water shoots around the base of citrus.

Aha, Bubba! Maybe that’s here the confusion arises.

roughbarked said:

pruning is only necessary to shape trees or to reduce fruiting levels. Or to allow light in.
Most of the above are not the norm. Rather more irregularly required. I’d suggest that you were shown how to allow light in or reduce the crop size. Neither of which is necessary every season.

to prune or not to prune ?
my neighbour is a brilliant tree pruner – witness his dozen 40 y.o. fruit trees all bearing copious amounts of fruit. he comes round here and stands, points and shakes his head. i think the only way i’ll learn is by doing my apprendiceship with the shears.
btw – how do you prune a fig tree?

pepe said:

roughbarked said:

pruning is only necessary to shape trees or to reduce fruiting levels. Or to allow light in.
Most of the above are not the norm. Rather more irregularly required. I’d suggest that you were shown how to allow light in or reduce the crop size. Neither of which is necessary every season.

to prune or not to prune ?
my neighbour is a brilliant tree pruner – witness his dozen 40 y.o. fruit trees all bearing copious amounts of fruit. he comes round here and stands, points and shakes his head. i think the only way i’ll learn is by doing my apprendiceship with the shears.
btw – how do you prune a fig tree?

Term: Water Shoots
Definition:
Fast growing shoots that usually arise around the site of pruning cuts or other damage.

in roses for example: New water shoots have to stay, even if they shoot up the middle. Water shoots are the new life and future of the plant.

“Large numbers of water shoots that emerge after winter pruning on semidwarfing and vigorous apple trees modify light climate within the tree canopy. Continuous measurements of illumination during the growing season on 11-year old apple trees revealed that water shoots decreased illumination about 50 % in the inner part of the tree canopies. Removing water shoots in the summer increased greatly light levels and improved the fruit colour. The question arises if water shoots that can bear up to 20 % of foliage surface on the tree contribute directly in the supplying of carbohydrates to fruitlets.

To solve this problem 14 CO2 was administered to mature leaves on water shoots and then the movement of radioactive assimilates was traced by radioanalytical methods.

It was found that radioactive assimilates are not translocated directly from the water shoots to fruitlets situated on neighbouring spurs. These assimilates are taken up by growing water shoot tips and incorporated in the bark and wood of main limbs near the place of their production. Removing tips of water shoots or the leaves adjacent to fruitlets did not change the pattern of assimilate distribution. Tracing of the vascular system of apple shoots was performed using different dyes as markers. The pattern of the vascular connection has been documented by figures, photographs and graphs. “

From the above you may ascertain that removing some watershoots may improve fruit colour and may help with setting fruiting spurs in some trees. However, the life of the tree is also more important than getting it to bear heavy crops especially in early years. In some types of fruiting trees it takes years of setting up a fruit bearing framework of branches so that good continuous cropping can continue for many more.

Getting back to citrus, being evergreen and a tree type wich hangs on to its leaves, it stands t reason that it needs all of them. Citrus benefit best by hedging. Many citrus farmers regularly bring the tops of the trees down but this is due to the fact that pickers don’t like climbing ladders with heavy bags of fruit. Many also get me to apply a dwarfing virus.

btw – how do you prune a fig tree?

I’m too scared to tell you how I prune mine Pepe!! LOL

orchid40 said:

btw – how do you prune a fig tree? I’m too scared to tell you how I prune mine Pepe!! LOL

yeah ? go on tell me.
i pruned mine back to a leaning branch and a vertical branch. that didn’t work – it now has 6 additional suckers as big as the two i saved. its only 3 y.o. and is quite a mess.

pepe said:

orchid40 said:

btw – how do you prune a fig tree? I’m too scared to tell you how I prune mine Pepe!! LOL

yeah ? go on tell me.
i pruned mine back to a leaning branch and a vertical branch. that didn’t work – it now has 6 additional suckers as big as the two i saved. its only 3 y.o. and is quite a mess.

I prune off the branches I can’t reach, that’s all. Some of the inside spindley branches get cut off too. It’s a waste of time really cos it simply regrows them for the next year. Plus I get plenty of suckers.

pepe said:

orchid40 said:

btw – how do you prune a fig tree? I’m too scared to tell you how I prune mine Pepe!! LOL

yeah ? go on tell me.
i pruned mine back to a leaning branch and a vertical branch. that didn’t work – it now has 6 additional suckers as big as the two i saved. its only 3 y.o. and is quite a mess.

I prune mine back to 3 main branches each winter in order to keep the tree small. It puts on plenty of new growth each year. Mind you, the birds get most of the fruit.

bluegreen said:

pepe said:

orchid40 said:

btw – how do you prune a fig tree? I’m too scared to tell you how I prune mine Pepe!! LOL

yeah ? go on tell me.
i pruned mine back to a leaning branch and a vertical branch. that didn’t work – it now has 6 additional suckers as big as the two i saved. its only 3 y.o. and is quite a mess.

I prune mine back to 3 main branches each winter in order to keep the tree small. It puts on plenty of new growth each year. Mind you, the birds get most of the fruit.

The requirement with a fig tree is to allow it to grow a straight trunk to an acceptable height for standing in.. and cut cut cut.

a step off the ladder.. and lay it flat.. keep it at that level.. so you can walk around on it pruning or picking fruit.

Remember that if you are up there competing for fruit the birds will be more wary.

I prune mine back to 3 main branches each winter in order to keep the tree small. It puts on plenty of new growth each year. Mind you, the birds get most of the fruit.
————
hey i can understand that advice. i’ll probably do something simple like that with mine.

pepe said:

I prune mine back to 3 main branches each winter in order to keep the tree small. It puts on plenty of new growth each year. Mind you, the birds get most of the fruit.
————
hey i can understand that advice. i’ll probably do something simple like that with mine.

Now I understand that too. After reading yesterdays discussion on water shoots (which served to confuse me) I went to check out my citrus this arvo. We had pruned our trees last winter and they have grown well since. The fruit is large and juicy (on the old wood) but where they were pruned is now twice as thick with stems and foliage. None of these new growths has fruited though. To shape the tree into the so called “vase shape” will mean I have to clear out all the newest growth again. there isn’t any gain in that so what’s the deal?

pomolo said:

pepe said:

I prune mine back to 3 main branches each winter in order to keep the tree small. It puts on plenty of new growth each year. Mind you, the birds get most of the fruit.
————
hey i can understand that advice. i’ll probably do something simple like that with mine.

Now I understand that too. After reading yesterdays discussion on water shoots (which served to confuse me) I went to check out my citrus this arvo. We had pruned our trees last winter and they have grown well since. The fruit is large and juicy (on the old wood) but where they were pruned is now twice as thick with stems and foliage. None of these new growths has fruited though. To shape the tree into the so called “vase shape” will mean I have to clear out all the newest growth again. there isn’t any gain in that so what’s the deal?

I’ve seen a lot of commercial citrus orchards around Gayndah and I’ve yet to see a vase shape.

Bubba Louie said:

pomolo said:

pepe said:

I prune mine back to 3 main branches each winter in order to keep the tree small. It puts on plenty of new growth each year. Mind you, the birds get most of the fruit.
————
hey i can understand that advice. i’ll probably do something simple like that with mine.

Now I understand that too. After reading yesterdays discussion on water shoots (which served to confuse me) I went to check out my citrus this arvo. We had pruned our trees last winter and they have grown well since. The fruit is large and juicy (on the old wood) but where they were pruned is now twice as thick with stems and foliage. None of these new growths has fruited though. To shape the tree into the so called “vase shape” will mean I have to clear out all the newest growth again. there isn’t any gain in that so what’s the deal?

I’ve seen a lot of commercial citrus orchards around Gayndah and I’ve yet to see a vase shape.

Vase shape is used in deciduous trees like peach or apricot maybe.. Thougn many in Victoria and elsewhere now use Tatura trellis.

Citrus trees are evergreens(didn’t I say that earlier?) They need every available bit of greenery to be able to get light.
Pruning is carried out when young to shape the tree but thereafter only done to keep out dead wood and crossing branches etc.
Citrus trees hate having bare branches exposed to sunlight. Thus opening the centre of the tree by way of a vase shape will kill branches and distress the tree. Think more lollipop shape.. much better

Bubba Louie said:

pomolo said:

pepe said:

I prune mine back to 3 main branches each winter in order to keep the tree small. It puts on plenty of new growth each year. Mind you, the birds get most of the fruit.
————
hey i can understand that advice. i’ll probably do something simple like that with mine.

Now I understand that too. After reading yesterdays discussion on water shoots (which served to confuse me) I went to check out my citrus this arvo. We had pruned our trees last winter and they have grown well since. The fruit is large and juicy (on the old wood) but where they were pruned is now twice as thick with stems and foliage. None of these new growths has fruited though. To shape the tree into the so called “vase shape” will mean I have to clear out all the newest growth again. there isn’t any gain in that so what’s the deal?

I’ve seen a lot of commercial citrus orchards around Gayndah and I’ve yet to see a vase shape.

Now that I understand Bubba and I agree totally.

pomolo said:

Bubba Louie said:

pomolo said:

Now I understand that too. After reading yesterdays discussion on water shoots (which served to confuse me) I went to check out my citrus this arvo. We had pruned our trees last winter and they have grown well since. The fruit is large and juicy (on the old wood) but where they were pruned is now twice as thick with stems and foliage. None of these new growths has fruited though. To shape the tree into the so called “vase shape” will mean I have to clear out all the newest growth again. there isn’t any gain in that so what’s the deal?

I’ve seen a lot of commercial citrus orchards around Gayndah and I’ve yet to see a vase shape.

Now that I understand Bubba and I agree totally.

Which implies that my answers in this thread are incomprehensible..?

;)

the first .pdf link I posted, says it all.

roughbarked said:

Bubba Louie said:

pomolo said:

Now I understand that too. After reading yesterdays discussion on water shoots (which served to confuse me) I went to check out my citrus this arvo. We had pruned our trees last winter and they have grown well since. The fruit is large and juicy (on the old wood) but where they were pruned is now twice as thick with stems and foliage. None of these new growths has fruited though. To shape the tree into the so called “vase shape” will mean I have to clear out all the newest growth again. there isn’t any gain in that so what’s the deal?

I’ve seen a lot of commercial citrus orchards around Gayndah and I’ve yet to see a vase shape.

Vase shape is used in deciduous trees like peach or apricot maybe.. Thougn many in Victoria and elsewhere now use Tatura trellis.

Citrus trees are evergreens(didn’t I say that earlier?) They need every available bit of greenery to be able to get light.
Pruning is carried out when young to shape the tree but thereafter only done to keep out dead wood and crossing branches etc.
Citrus trees hate having bare branches exposed to sunlight. Thus opening the centre of the tree by way of a vase shape will kill branches and distress the tree. Think more lollipop shape.. much better

Point taken RB. I shall do better.

pomolo said:

roughbarked said:

Bubba Louie said:

I’ve seen a lot of commercial citrus orchards around Gayndah and I’ve yet to see a vase shape.

Vase shape is used in deciduous trees like peach or apricot maybe.. Thougn many in Victoria and elsewhere now use Tatura trellis.

Citrus trees are evergreens(didn’t I say that earlier?) They need every available bit of greenery to be able to get light.
Pruning is carried out when young to shape the tree but thereafter only done to keep out dead wood and crossing branches etc.
Citrus trees hate having bare branches exposed to sunlight. Thus opening the centre of the tree by way of a vase shape will kill branches and distress the tree. Think more lollipop shape.. much better

Point taken RB. I shall do better.

:)

don’t mind me.. I’m pretty harmless.

roughbarked said:

pomolo said:

Bubba Louie said:

I’ve seen a lot of commercial citrus orchards around Gayndah and I’ve yet to see a vase shape.

Now that I understand Bubba and I agree totally.

Which implies that my answers in this thread are incomprehensible..?

;)

the first .pdf link I posted, says it all.

No offence intended RB. I bow to your experience and knowledge every time. Food producing gardening is fairly new to me and the aging brain forgets how to compute from time to time.

pomolo said:

roughbarked said:

pomolo said:

Now that I understand Bubba and I agree totally.

Which implies that my answers in this thread are incomprehensible..?

;)

the first .pdf link I posted, says it all.

No offence intended RB. I bow to your experience and knowledge every time. Food producing gardening is fairly new to me and the aging brain forgets how to compute from time to time.

It isn’t as much my knowledge and experience .. as much as the world comuunity’s knowledge and experience that I draw from.
Yes maybe I do have some of my own to add but no more than anyone else has the ability to work with.

no bowing and scraping necessary.. nose rubbing is fine ;)