According to many musicians, in order to have the best sound possible, an acoustic guitar has to be made from the “right” type of wood. Unfortunately, such wood often comes from endangered, unsustainably-harvested trees. A new study, however, suggests that wood type makes essentially no difference.
https://newatlas.com/guitar-wood-types/58139/
PermeateFree said:
According to many musicians, in order to have the best sound possible, an acoustic guitar has to be made from the “right” type of wood. Unfortunately, such wood often comes from endangered, unsustainably-harvested trees. A new study, however, suggests that wood type makes essentially no difference.https://newatlas.com/guitar-wood-types/58139/
It is the sound board that makes the sound. Not the back and sides so much.
Note that they’re only talking about the wood used on the back and sides.
And yes, there’s a very wide range of hardwoods that will give good results.
The wood said to be “best” for these purposes is usually just the most expensive (and increasingly, rare) but it doesn’t necessarily make any discernible difference acoustically.
Bubblecar said:
Note that they’re only talking about the wood used on the back and sides.And yes, there’s a very wide range of hardwoods that will give good results.
The wood said to be “best” for these purposes is usually just the most expensive (and increasingly, rare) but it doesn’t necessarily make any discernible difference acoustically.
Is it the best as people says its best as price equals the best
Cymek said:
Bubblecar said:
Note that they’re only talking about the wood used on the back and sides.And yes, there’s a very wide range of hardwoods that will give good results.
The wood said to be “best” for these purposes is usually just the most expensive (and increasingly, rare) but it doesn’t necessarily make any discernible difference acoustically.
Is it the best as people says its best as price equals the best
It is mostly about looks. Good woodgrain is usually found on older rarer trees. I recall a cabinet maker from Germany who said that as a boy he was taken out to pick his tree and from that moment of cutting he was responsible for the turning and curing of the wood as well as the working of the wood. He said for example that there is no walnut tree in Australia old enough.
The same cannot be said for the wood used in harpsichords. Ain’t I right, bubbles?
sibeen said:
The same cannot be said for the wood used in harpsichords. Ain’t I right, bubbles?
psaltry.
Have studies been done on thickness, does thicker wood sound better than thinner wood?
sibeen said:
The same cannot be said for the wood used in harpsichords. Ain’t I right, bubbles?
On any acoustic stringed instrument the most important timber is that used on the soundboard, and there the choice of wood is more restricted.
The most common soundboard woods are various kinds of spruce and cedar, but there other suitable candidates such as King William pine (which is too rare to be of commercial importance for this use).
Bubblecar said:
sibeen said:
The same cannot be said for the wood used in harpsichords. Ain’t I right, bubbles?
On any acoustic stringed instrument the most important timber is that used on the soundboard, and there the choice of wood is more restricted.
The most common soundboard woods are various kinds of spruce and cedar, but there other suitable candidates such as King William pine (which is too rare to be of commercial importance for this use).
Which is all why this particular study is meaningless.
Tau.Neutrino said:
Have studies been done on thickness, does thicker wood sound better than thinner wood?
The ideal timber thicknesses for musical instrument bodies is well known from experience, and various acoustic experiments.
Typically the components are very thin to allow free transmission and amplification of vibrations, but there are many preferred thicknesses for this or that instrument and slight variations that will result in better enhancement of overtones in this or that section of the instrument’s range.
roughbarked said:
Bubblecar said:
sibeen said:
The same cannot be said for the wood used in harpsichords. Ain’t I right, bubbles?
On any acoustic stringed instrument the most important timber is that used on the soundboard, and there the choice of wood is more restricted.
The most common soundboard woods are various kinds of spruce and cedar, but there other suitable candidates such as King William pine (which is too rare to be of commercial importance for this use).
Which is all why this particular study is meaningless.
Not necessarily. There are many traditional biases towards this or that timber for the back and sides of this or that instrument, and studies like this can help clarify whether they make any acoustic sense.
Bubblecar said:
roughbarked said:
Bubblecar said:On any acoustic stringed instrument the most important timber is that used on the soundboard, and there the choice of wood is more restricted.
The most common soundboard woods are various kinds of spruce and cedar, but there other suitable candidates such as King William pine (which is too rare to be of commercial importance for this use).
Which is all why this particular study is meaningless.
Not necessarily. There are many traditional biases towards this or that timber for the back and sides of this or that instrument, and studies like this can help clarify whether they make any acoustic sense.
As I did try to point out, this is mostly about appearance. Always has been. Can’t ever recall anything said aboutacoustic quality. Though if one sits the guitar on a wood table or a box while playing, the resonance and timbre do increase.
Well, I made a viola out of polyester. And it sounded ok, so I’m not going to argue.
mollwollfumble said:
Well, I made a viola out of polyester. And it sounded ok, so I’m not going to argue.
hollow logs sound ok too.
roughbarked said:
Bark might be too thin.
Some introduced bias there. Maybe this guy is just a really good (master?) luthier…
Tau.Neutrino said:
roughbarked said:
Bark might be too thin.
It isn’t rough. ;)
furious said:
- For the study, a team from Britain’s Lancaster University contracted luthier Roger Bucknall (of Flyde Guitars) to build six steel-string acoustic guitars.
Some introduced bias there. Maybe this guy is just a really good (master?) luthier…
?
Obviously it makes sense to compare the response of the timbers on good quality instruments.
Bubblecar said:
furious said:
- For the study, a team from Britain’s Lancaster University contracted luthier Roger Bucknall (of Flyde Guitars) to build six steel-string acoustic guitars.
Some introduced bias there. Maybe this guy is just a really good (master?) luthier…
?
Obviously it makes sense to compare the response of the timbers on good quality instruments.
One would think so, yeah.
But, did they tell him why they wanted six identical guitars made from different kind of wood? If not, then his commission was indeed to make sure that he made them all identical including the way they sound and feel. With access to all six he was well positioned to make sure they were identical before submission. On the other hand, if they did tell him why they wanted them, he may, or may not, be even more inclined to make them all the same…
furious said:
- Obviously it makes sense to compare the response of the timbers on good quality instruments.
But, did they tell him why they wanted six identical guitars made from different kind of wood? If not, then his commission was indeed to make sure that he made them all identical including the way they sound and feel. With access to all six he was well positioned to make sure they were identical before submission. On the other hand, if they did tell him why they wanted them, he may, or may not, be even more inclined to make them all the same…
No matter. They all appeared to use the same wood for the soundboard.
I know you won’t want my input on this. But I did read a very good book on DIY guitar making a year ago (three different types of acoustic guitars), and did look into the acoustic properties of materials in preparation for the viola making, have heard something interesting about how Stradivarius treated his woods. I read a paper on which rainforest hardwoods are best for making percussion instruments, have previously read about the sound qualities of various modern-built harpsichords – including one made from aluminium, and know a bit about the traditional use of plastics in a range of classical musical instruments.
If you care to listen.
mollwollfumble said:
I know you won’t want my input on this. But I did read a very good book on DIY guitar making a year ago (three different types of acoustic guitars), and did look into the acoustic properties of materials in preparation for the viola making, have heard something interesting about how Stradivarius treated his woods. I read a paper on which rainforest hardwoods are best for making percussion instruments, have previously read about the sound qualities of various modern-built harpsichords – including one made from aluminium, and know a bit about the traditional use of plastics in a range of classical musical instruments.If you care to listen.
Yes but as Bubblecar and I have strived to pointt oout, it is the sounding board thta makes all the noise. The rest may as well be any wooden box. Tear a piano apart and you will find thta it has a soundboard too. The rest of the piano can be any box.
roughbarked said:
mollwollfumble said:
I know you won’t want my input on this. But I did read a very good book on DIY guitar making a year ago (three different types of acoustic guitars), and did look into the acoustic properties of materials in preparation for the viola making, have heard something interesting about how Stradivarius treated his woods. I read a paper on which rainforest hardwoods are best for making percussion instruments, have previously read about the sound qualities of various modern-built harpsichords – including one made from aluminium, and know a bit about the traditional use of plastics in a range of classical musical instruments.If you care to listen.
Yes but as Bubblecar and I have strived to point out, it is the sounding board that makes all the noise. The rest may as well be any wooden box. Tear a piano apart and you will find that it has a soundboard too. The rest of the piano can be any box.
Yes. I agree with that. The shape of the inside air volume in the guitar is awful, which is why only the soundboard has much influence on the quality. The rest can just about be any box. Ditto a piano. Ditto a clarinet. Not true for a violin. Not true for a trumpet.
The dominant influences on the sound quality from an acoustic guitar are:
As for wood materials, the three primary concerns are:
So guitar makers usually go for two woods.
There is also the question of purfling. Before I read the book on guitar-making I thought it was decoration only, of negligible acoustic value. I’ve revised that idea. The purfling weakens the edges of the front so that it tends to vibrate more as a pin-ended beam than as a fixed ended beam. This would make the acoustic properties of the guitar very much more predictable.
mollwollfumble said:
roughbarked said:
mollwollfumble said:
I know you won’t want my input on this. But I did read a very good book on DIY guitar making a year ago (three different types of acoustic guitars), and did look into the acoustic properties of materials in preparation for the viola making, have heard something interesting about how Stradivarius treated his woods. I read a paper on which rainforest hardwoods are best for making percussion instruments, have previously read about the sound qualities of various modern-built harpsichords – including one made from aluminium, and know a bit about the traditional use of plastics in a range of classical musical instruments.If you care to listen.
Yes but as Bubblecar and I have strived to point out, it is the sounding board that makes all the noise. The rest may as well be any wooden box. Tear a piano apart and you will find that it has a soundboard too. The rest of the piano can be any box.
Yes. I agree with that. The shape of the inside air volume in the guitar is awful, which is why only the soundboard has much influence on the quality. The rest can just about be any box. Ditto a piano. Ditto a clarinet. Not true for a violin. Not true for a trumpet.
The dominant influences on the sound quality from an acoustic guitar are:
- The thickness of the stings. Thicker strings have a better quality sound, but the thinner the strings are the easier it is to play.
- The glue joints. The accuracy and precision of the glue joints has a huge influence on the sound quality from a guitar – because guitar makers traditionally always use the wrong glue.
- The physical volume of the box. A larger volume of box covers up defects in box shape.
As for wood materials, the three primary concerns are:
- Rigidity. The higher the elastic modulus the better
- Liveliness. The lower the coefficient of acoustic absorption the better
- Light weight.
- Resistance to creep. Want best durability.
So guitar makers usually go for two woods.
- One is for where strength is important – a high strength wood that is dense and very stiff and strong, the lightness comes from the ability to make it as thin as is safe.
- The second is for bulky items where rigidity comes from bulk rather than high elastic modulus. The wood is very lightweight and only average strength.
There is also the question of purfling. Before I read the book on guitar-making I thought it was decoration only, of negligible acoustic value. I’ve revised that idea. The purfling weakens the edges of the front so that it tends to vibrate more as a pin-ended beam than as a fixed ended beam. This would make the acoustic properties of the guitar very much more predictable.
The purfing also makes the pick a bastard to get back out.
roughbarked said:
mollwollfumble said:
roughbarked said:Yes but as Bubblecar and I have strived to point out, it is the sounding board that makes all the noise. The rest may as well be any wooden box. Tear a piano apart and you will find that it has a soundboard too. The rest of the piano can be any box.
Yes. I agree with that. The shape of the inside air volume in the guitar is awful, which is why only the soundboard has much influence on the quality. The rest can just about be any box. Ditto a piano.
But while strumming a guitar and sit the end of the guitar on the wooden table you are sitting at and garner a world of new experience.
Here’s a paper I read earlier.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/6357780_Sound_quality_assessment_of_wood_for_xylophone_bars
Xylophone sounds produced by striking wooden bars with a mallet are strongly influenced by the mechanical properties of the wood species chosen by the xylophone maker. In this paper, we address the relationship between the sound quality based on the timbre attribute of impacted wooden bars and the physical parameters characterizing wood species.
Sounds generated by impacting 59 wooden bars of different species but with the same geometry were recorded and classified by a renowned instrument maker.
… pointed out the importance of two timbre descriptors: the frequency-dependent damping and the spectral bandwidth.
Dalbergia species is preferred by the renowned xylophone maker as having the best sound. It has the lowest acoustic damping, 14.28 s^-1.
Dalbergia is a large genus of small to medium-size trees, shrubs and lianas in the pea family, Fabaceae. The genus has a wide distribution, native to the tropical regions of Central and South America, Africa, Madagascar and southern Asia. The most famous of these are the rosewoods, so-named because of the smell of the timber when cut. African blackwood (D. melanoxylon) is an intensely black wood in demand for making woodwind musical instruments.
Note that Dalbergia has only an average bandwidth. Further, “there was no correlation between the acoustic value and the wood density”.
Also note that many of the woodwind musical instruments that used to be of wood, including the recorder, clarinet, piccolo and bassoon, are usually now made of ABS plastic. Guitar bridges are also made of ABS plastic.
ABS plastic has a nice sound, but one that is inferior to polyester. Which is why I chose polyester for the viola. Most plastics (acrylic, epoxy, pvc, silicone etc.) are acoustically dead and should never be used in any part of a musical instrument, not even as part of the glue.
mollwollfumble said:
Here’s a paper I read earlier.https://www.researchgate.net/publication/6357780_Sound_quality_assessment_of_wood_for_xylophone_bars
Xylophone sounds produced by striking wooden bars with a mallet are strongly influenced by the mechanical properties of the wood species chosen by the xylophone maker. In this paper, we address the relationship between the sound quality based on the timbre attribute of impacted wooden bars and the physical parameters characterizing wood species.
Sounds generated by impacting 59 wooden bars of different species but with the same geometry were recorded and classified by a renowned instrument maker.
… pointed out the importance of two timbre descriptors: the frequency-dependent damping and the spectral bandwidth.
ABS plastic has a nice sound, but one that is inferior to polyester. Which is why I chose polyester for the viola. Most plastics (acrylic, epoxy, pvc, silicone etc.) are acoustically dead and should never be used in any part of a musical instrument, not even as part of the glue.
Aboriginal people collected the musical scales in rocks they found a very long time earlier than these people did. https://www.leeds.ac.uk/ruskinrocks/history%20of%20musial%20stones.htm
Posted this last night. The luthier describes the hole Willie has made in the gitar as ‘the second sound hole.’
From: sarahs mum
ID: 1333589
Subject: re: January Chat 2019
Repairing Willie Nelson’s Trigger
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhQuJTc5yFY
Repairing Willie Nelson’s Trigger Part 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fDij2CWLZY
One further comment about the wood used in musical instruments.
The wood that Stradivarius used, it more closely resembled cellulose-reinforced plastic than wood.
mollwollfumble said:
One further comment about the wood used in musical instruments.The wood that Stradivarius used, it more closely resembled cellulose-reinforced plastic than wood.
Obvious to me is that thus he preceeded Henry Ford by an age.
roughbarked said:
mollwollfumble said:
One further comment about the wood used in musical instruments.The wood that Stradivarius used, it more closely resembled cellulose-reinforced plastic than wood.
Obvious to me is that thus he preceeded Henry Ford by an age.
Henry Ford?
The only cellulose-reinforced plastic cars that I know of were made in Russia.
So, this goes for classical stringed instraments too?
Bubblecar said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
Have studies been done on thickness, does thicker wood sound better than thinner wood?
The ideal timber thicknesses for musical instrument bodies is well known from experience, and various acoustic experiments.
Typically the components are very thin to allow free transmission and amplification of vibrations, but there are many preferred thicknesses for this or that instrument and slight variations that will result in better enhancement of overtones in this or that section of the instrument’s range.
Thicknesses of Wood
http://www.derekroberts.co.uk/making/thickness.htm
Ogmog said:
Bubblecar said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
Have studies been done on thickness, does thicker wood sound better than thinner wood?
The ideal timber thicknesses for musical instrument bodies is well known from experience, and various acoustic experiments.
Typically the components are very thin to allow free transmission and amplification of vibrations, but there are many preferred thicknesses for this or that instrument and slight variations that will result in better enhancement of overtones in this or that section of the instrument’s range.
Thicknesses of Wood
http://www.derekroberts.co.uk/making/thickness.htm
Kothos said:
So, this goes for classical stringed instraments too?
Absolutely.
Fender’s Acoustasonic Telecaster, an acoustic-electric hybrid guitar.
Fender’s acoustic-electric hybrid is a technological wonder
The $2,000 Acoustasonic Telecaster is the first in a series of American Acoustasonic guitars that put the sounds of an acoustic guitar into the body of an electric guitar. It sounds simple enough, but in reality, there’s a very specific sound that needs to be produced by an acoustic guitar and recreating that in the smaller body with far less volume than a traditional acoustic took time and lot of research.
more…
Kothos said:
So, this goes for classical stringed instraments too?
The violin family are typically made from spruce and maple but other hardwoods have been used for the back and sides, with perfectly acceptable results.
However there’s no shortage of maple which has been standard for such instruments since they were first made, and gives excellent results.
It also used to be used for guitar bodies until tropical hardwoods became more popular. Now that many tropical timbers are endangered, maple is again starting to attract attention, with various plantations for this purpose underway.
Bubblecar said:
Kothos said:
So, this goes for classical stringed instraments too?
The violin family are typically made from spruce and maple but other hardwoods have been used for the back and sides, with perfectly acceptable results.
However there’s no shortage of maple which has been standard for such instruments since they were first made, and gives excellent results.
It also used to be used for guitar bodies until tropical hardwoods became more popular. Now that many tropical timbers are endangered, maple is again starting to attract attention, with various plantations for this purpose underway.
My lute and cittern are both made of spruce and maple.
If I was shown a picture of those instruments on a quiz show and asked to identify them, I would not be able to.
Divine Angel said:
If I was shown a picture of those instruments on a quiz show and asked to identify them, I would not be able to.
Would you have said, mandolin?
Divine Angel said:
If I was shown a picture of those instruments on a quiz show and asked to identify them, I would not be able to.
First snap, lute is on the right (actually a guitar-lute or lute-guitar, because it has six strings tuned the same as classical guitar), cittern left.
Next pic they’re reversed.
roughbarked said:
Divine Angel said:
If I was shown a picture of those instruments on a quiz show and asked to identify them, I would not be able to.
Would you have said, mandolin?
Probably, although I know that’s wrong.
Bubblecar said:
Bubblecar said:
Kothos said:
So, this goes for classical stringed instraments too?
The violin family are typically made from spruce and maple but other hardwoods have been used for the back and sides, with perfectly acceptable results.
However there’s no shortage of maple which has been standard for such instruments since they were first made, and gives excellent results.
It also used to be used for guitar bodies until tropical hardwoods became more popular. Now that many tropical timbers are endangered, maple is again starting to attract attention, with various plantations for this purpose underway.
My lute and cittern are both made of spruce and maple.
Can I buy something like one of those from you?
We used to have a mandolin but it disintegrated.
mollwollfumble said:
Bubblecar said:
Bubblecar said:The violin family are typically made from spruce and maple but other hardwoods have been used for the back and sides, with perfectly acceptable results.
However there’s no shortage of maple which has been standard for such instruments since they were first made, and gives excellent results.
It also used to be used for guitar bodies until tropical hardwoods became more popular. Now that many tropical timbers are endangered, maple is again starting to attract attention, with various plantations for this purpose underway.
My lute and cittern are both made of spruce and maple.
Can I buy something like one of those from you?
We used to have a mandolin but it disintegrated.
I get the feeling that Mr Car is rather possessive of his various loves and his musical instruments are probably priceless.
Maybe you should ask him for a quote to make you one.
roughbarked said:
mollwollfumble said:
Bubblecar said:My lute and cittern are both made of spruce and maple.
Can I buy something like one of those from you?
We used to have a mandolin but it disintegrated.
I get the feeling that Mr Car is rather possessive of his various loves and his musical instruments are probably priceless.
Maybe you should ask him for a quote to make you one.
That’s what I meant.
