https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24132130-300-long-lost-cities-in-the-amazon-were-once-home-to-millions-of-people/

You only get the intro if you are not a subscriber, but it gives the idea.

I had no idea that there were millions of people living in the Amazon, complete with towns, roads, and other engineering works.

It seems that people have been working on this since the 1990’s.

How come we hear so little about it?

The Rev Dodgson said:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24132130-300-long-lost-cities-in-the-amazon-were-once-home-to-millions-of-people/

You only get the intro if you are not a subscriber, but it gives the idea.

I had no idea that there were millions of people living in the Amazon, complete with towns, roads, and other engineering works.

It seems that people have been working on this since the 1990’s.

How come we hear so little about it?

They were, apparently, the most difficult bunch to get to join the Incan empire, pity it collapsed almost as soon as it started.

The Rev Dodgson said:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24132130-300-long-lost-cities-in-the-amazon-were-once-home-to-millions-of-people/

You only get the intro if you are not a subscriber, but it gives the idea.

I had no idea that there were millions of people living in the Amazon, complete with towns, roads, and other engineering works.

It seems that people have been working on this since the 1990’s.

How come we hear so little about it?

I knew of it, there are lots of overgrown cities and temples around the world, some have been swallowed by the sea, some under lakes, some under volcanic ash.

How come we hear so little about it?

—

You must have been tuned to the wrong station.

———-

WASHINGTON, Sept. 18, 2003 — Newly discovered traces of ancient roads, bridges, and plazas in Brazil’s tropical forest may help dispel the once-popular impression of an “untouched” Amazon before the Europeans’ arrival. In southern Brazil, archaeologists have found the remains of a network of urban communities that apparently hosted a population many thousands strong. Reporting their findings in the journal Science, published by AAAS, the science society, the researchers say the people who dwelled there dramatically changed their local landscape.

In the upper Xingu region of the southern Amazon, in central Brazil, Michael Heckenberger of the University of Florida and his colleagues have discovered centuries-old remains of roads that appear to link a network of large villages in a carefully organized, gridlike pattern. The residents, ancestors of the modern-day Xinguanos, dug enormous ditches around the villages, built bridges and moats in wetland areas, and cultivated large tracts of land.

It seems that virtually no part of this landscape was truly wild, or “pristine.” Even some of the forested areas may have been more akin to a large park than to untouched forest, according to Heckenberger.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/3077413/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/lost-cities-amazon-revealed/

Ian said:

How come we hear so little about it?

—

You must have been tuned to the wrong station.

———-

WASHINGTON, Sept. 18, 2003 — Newly discovered traces of ancient roads, bridges, and plazas in Brazil’s tropical forest may help dispel the once-popular impression of an “untouched” Amazon before the Europeans’ arrival. In southern Brazil, archaeologists have found the remains of a network of urban communities that apparently hosted a population many thousands strong. Reporting their findings in the journal Science, published by AAAS, the science society, the researchers say the people who dwelled there dramatically changed their local landscape.

In the upper Xingu region of the southern Amazon, in central Brazil, Michael Heckenberger of the University of Florida and his colleagues have discovered centuries-old remains of roads that appear to link a network of large villages in a carefully organized, gridlike pattern. The residents, ancestors of the modern-day Xinguanos, dug enormous ditches around the villages, built bridges and moats in wetland areas, and cultivated large tracts of land.

It seems that virtually no part of this landscape was truly wild, or “pristine.” Even some of the forested areas may have been more akin to a large park than to untouched forest, according to Heckenberger.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/3077413/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/lost-cities-amazon-revealed/

OK, could just be me I suppose.

Thanks for the link :)

I remember seeing an interesting doco on the very funky way that ancient Amazonians had discovered to tranform their crappy soil into really fertile stuff contrary to what I was taught at school.

—

 Fifteen hundred years ago, tribes people from the central Amazon basin mixed their soil with charcoal derived from animal bone and tree bark. Today, at the site of this charcoal deposit, scientists have found some of the richest, most fertile soil in the world. Now this ancient, remarkably simple farming technique seems far ahead of the curve, holding promise as a carbon-negative strategy to rein in world hunger as well as greenhouse gases.

At the 235th national meeting of the American Chemical Society, scientists report that charcoal derived from heated biomass has an unprecedented ability to improve the fertility of soil — one that surpasses compost, animal manure, and other well-known soil conditioners.

They also suggest that this so-called “biochar” profoundly enhances the natural carbon seizing ability of soil. Dubbed “black gold agriculture,” scientists say this “revolutionary” farming technique can provide a cheap, straight-forward strategy to reduce greenhouse gases by trapping them in charcoal-laced soil.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080410153658.htm

Thanks for the link :)

—

Sure. Bing has its limitations.

:)

Ian said:

I remember seeing an interesting doco on the very funky way that ancient Amazonians had discovered to tranform their crappy soil into really fertile stuff contrary to what I was taught at school.

—

 Fifteen hundred years ago, tribes people from the central Amazon basin mixed their soil with charcoal derived from animal bone and tree bark. Today, at the site of this charcoal deposit, scientists have found some of the richest, most fertile soil in the world. Now this ancient, remarkably simple farming technique seems far ahead of the curve, holding promise as a carbon-negative strategy to rein in world hunger as well as greenhouse gases.

At the 235th national meeting of the American Chemical Society, scientists report that charcoal derived from heated biomass has an unprecedented ability to improve the fertility of soil — one that surpasses compost, animal manure, and other well-known soil conditioners.

They also suggest that this so-called “biochar” profoundly enhances the natural carbon seizing ability of soil. Dubbed “black gold agriculture,” scientists say this “revolutionary” farming technique can provide a cheap, straight-forward strategy to reduce greenhouse gases by trapping them in charcoal-laced soil.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080410153658.htm

Biochar supposedly gives soil bacteria a place to thrive as it can colonise the chunks of charcoal

Ian said:

I remember seeing an interesting doco on the very funky way that ancient Amazonians had discovered to tranform their crappy soil into really fertile stuff contrary to what I was taught at school.

—

 Fifteen hundred years ago, tribes people from the central Amazon basin mixed their soil with charcoal derived from animal bone and tree bark. Today, at the site of this charcoal deposit, scientists have found some of the richest, most fertile soil in the world. Now this ancient, remarkably simple farming technique seems far ahead of the curve, holding promise as a carbon-negative strategy to rein in world hunger as well as greenhouse gases.

At the 235th national meeting of the American Chemical Society, scientists report that charcoal derived from heated biomass has an unprecedented ability to improve the fertility of soil — one that surpasses compost, animal manure, and other well-known soil conditioners.

They also suggest that this so-called “biochar” profoundly enhances the natural carbon seizing ability of soil. Dubbed “black gold agriculture,” scientists say this “revolutionary” farming technique can provide a cheap, straight-forward strategy to reduce greenhouse gases by trapping them in charcoal-laced soil.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080410153658.htm

> Fifteen hundred years ago, tribes people from the central Amazon basin mixed their soil with charcoal derived from animal bone and tree bark. Today, at the site of this charcoal deposit, scientists have found some of the richest, most fertile soil in the world.

We used to call that “slash and burn”. The carbon in charcoal is useless as fertilizer because plants get all their carbon from the air.

?

Would this by any chance be boggy ground? Permanently wet?

mollwollfumble said:

Ian said:

I remember seeing an interesting doco on the very funky way that ancient Amazonians had discovered to tranform their crappy soil into really fertile stuff contrary to what I was taught at school.

—

 Fifteen hundred years ago, tribes people from the central Amazon basin mixed their soil with charcoal derived from animal bone and tree bark. Today, at the site of this charcoal deposit, scientists have found some of the richest, most fertile soil in the world. Now this ancient, remarkably simple farming technique seems far ahead of the curve, holding promise as a carbon-negative strategy to rein in world hunger as well as greenhouse gases.

At the 235th national meeting of the American Chemical Society, scientists report that charcoal derived from heated biomass has an unprecedented ability to improve the fertility of soil — one that surpasses compost, animal manure, and other well-known soil conditioners.

They also suggest that this so-called “biochar” profoundly enhances the natural carbon seizing ability of soil. Dubbed “black gold agriculture,” scientists say this “revolutionary” farming technique can provide a cheap, straight-forward strategy to reduce greenhouse gases by trapping them in charcoal-laced soil.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080410153658.htm

> Fifteen hundred years ago, tribes people from the central Amazon basin mixed their soil with charcoal derived from animal bone and tree bark. Today, at the site of this charcoal deposit, scientists have found some of the richest, most fertile soil in the world.

We used to call that “slash and burn”. The carbon in charcoal is useless as fertilizer because plants get all their carbon from the air.

?

Would this by any chance be boggy ground? Permanently wet?

It’s the amazon, it’d be soggy as all folk for a good portion of the year, annual rains are from 2300mm up to 6000mm in some parts.

We used to call that “slash and burn”. The carbon in charcoal is useless as fertilizer because plants get all their carbon from the air.

I read that with biochar the soil bacteria colonises the chunks of charcoal and it enables them to live a lot longer, I suppose it would also help the soil to not become clogged or dry out.

Found the below as well

More than 56% of the dust fertilizing the Amazon rainforest comes from the Bodélé depression in Northern Chad in the Sahara desert. The dust contains phosphorus, important for plant growth. The yearly Sahara dust replaces the equivalent amount of phosphorus washed away yearly in Amazon soil from rains and floods. Up to 50 million tonnes of Sahara dust per year are blown across the Atlantic Ocean. NASA Video.

poikilotherm said:

It’s the amazon, it’d be soggy as all folk for a good portion of the year, annual rains are from 2300mm up to 6000mm in some parts.

This is, in fact, the major reason that these civilisations has to give up cricket and the empire building ethos that it develops. They just couldn’t get a decent pitch in under these trying weather conditions.

We don’t hear about it until a missionary doesn’t come home.

I had heard of it through learning about biochar. When I was living at the old place I made a couple of biochar burners from old 44 gal drums. As part of my researching YouTube clips on how to make them I found a couple of BBC or NatGeo type docos on the ancient civilisations in the Amazon that used the technique on a mass scale to improve soil fertility, and how some old deposits were being mined today by farmers looking for good soil.

sibeen said:

poikilotherm said:

It’s the amazon, it’d be soggy as all folk for a good portion of the year, annual rains are from 2300mm up to 6000mm in some parts.

This is, in fact, the major reason that these civilisations has to give up cricket and the empire building ethos that it develops. They just couldn’t get a decent pitch in under these trying weather conditions.

But they couldn’t have been worse than Melbourne’s.

There was a documentary series, “Life After People” that showed how cities would go after they are abandoned. I don’t have any specific recollection of the series but i think it mostly showed what would happen to cities that currently exist today. I don’t think they did retrospectives but that would have been interesting I suppose. In the rain forest I expect it wouldn’t take too long before nature completely took over without someone there holding it back…

party_pants said:

I had heard of it through learning about biochar. When I was living at the old place I made a couple of biochar burners from old 44 gal drums. As part of my researching YouTube clips on how to make them I found a couple of BBC or NatGeo type docos on the ancient civilisations in the Amazon that used the technique on a mass scale to improve soil fertility, and how some old deposits were being mined today by farmers looking for good soil.

This is not quite the same as just doing a stubble burn and turning it into the soil, is it? Used to be general farming practice around here when we moved here. Head the crop, burn the stubble, turn it in. It seems to have gone out of favour.

Power outages are being reported in a number of Melbourne suburbs including Glenroy, Oak Park, Broadmeadows, Essendon and Strathmore.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-25/extreme-heat-for-victoria-melbourne-hottest-day-in-a-decade/10748330

egad, that’s a bit close to home.

buffy said:

party_pants said:

I had heard of it through learning about biochar. When I was living at the old place I made a couple of biochar burners from old 44 gal drums. As part of my researching YouTube clips on how to make them I found a couple of BBC or NatGeo type docos on the ancient civilisations in the Amazon that used the technique on a mass scale to improve soil fertility, and how some old deposits were being mined today by farmers looking for good soil.

This is not quite the same as just doing a stubble burn and turning it into the soil, is it? Used to be general farming practice around here when we moved here. Head the crop, burn the stubble, turn it in. It seems to have gone out of favour.

Stubble is valuable cattle fodder now.
Head the crop, put the cattle to graze on it, cattle dung fertilizer, plow it in, new crop.
Goto, start.

• It seems to have gone out of favour.

Probably due to some regulation or other…

Peak Warming Man said:

buffy said:

party_pants said:

I had heard of it through learning about biochar. When I was living at the old place I made a couple of biochar burners from old 44 gal drums. As part of my researching YouTube clips on how to make them I found a couple of BBC or NatGeo type docos on the ancient civilisations in the Amazon that used the technique on a mass scale to improve soil fertility, and how some old deposits were being mined today by farmers looking for good soil.

This is not quite the same as just doing a stubble burn and turning it into the soil, is it? Used to be general farming practice around here when we moved here. Head the crop, burn the stubble, turn it in. It seems to have gone out of favour.

Stubble is valuable cattle fodder now.
Head the crop, put the cattle to graze on it, cattle dung fertilizer, plow it in, new crop.
Goto, start.

Don’t forget that the next year you grow broadbeans to nitrogenate the soil when you plough them in. It’s more sheep than cattle out here, but I don’t think I’ve seen any animals grazing on the canola straw. But they don’t burn it either. I think it might have been the oats stubble that used to be burned.

So, what’s the difference between Biochar and Charcoal?

sibeen said:

Power outages are being reported in a number of Melbourne suburbs including Glenroy, Oak Park, Broadmeadows, Essendon and Strathmore.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-25/extreme-heat-for-victoria-melbourne-hottest-day-in-a-decade/10748330

egad, that’s a bit close to home.

And Alcoa has had to reduce production at the aluminium smelter, dangerous procedure.
I think they’ll have to move to a country with reliable power, probably a country importing good Australian coal.
Then we can all gather around as the smelter is blown to pieces in a controlled explosion.

Peak Warming Man said:

buffy said:

party_pants said:

I had heard of it through learning about biochar. When I was living at the old place I made a couple of biochar burners from old 44 gal drums. As part of my researching YouTube clips on how to make them I found a couple of BBC or NatGeo type docos on the ancient civilisations in the Amazon that used the technique on a mass scale to improve soil fertility, and how some old deposits were being mined today by farmers looking for good soil.

This is not quite the same as just doing a stubble burn and turning it into the soil, is it? Used to be general farming practice around here when we moved here. Head the crop, burn the stubble, turn it in. It seems to have gone out of favour.

Stubble is valuable cattle fodder now.
Head the crop, put the cattle to graze on it, cattle dung fertilizer, plow it in, new crop.
Goto, start.

plow it in?

Places other than Kweensland are all doing zero till these days.

buffy said:

party_pants said:

I had heard of it through learning about biochar. When I was living at the old place I made a couple of biochar burners from old 44 gal drums. As part of my researching YouTube clips on how to make them I found a couple of BBC or NatGeo type docos on the ancient civilisations in the Amazon that used the technique on a mass scale to improve soil fertility, and how some old deposits were being mined today by farmers looking for good soil.

This is not quite the same as just doing a stubble burn and turning it into the soil, is it? Used to be general farming practice around here when we moved here. Head the crop, burn the stubble, turn it in. It seems to have gone out of favour.

No, this is about burning lightly in such a way that the volatiles are driven off and more of the carbon is left behind without turned into carbon dioxide. Also the micro-structure of the charcoal made in such a way is very porous and provides lots of surface area to trap water and nutrients, and helpful soil microbes.

Ian said:

Peak Warming Man said:

buffy said:

This is not quite the same as just doing a stubble burn and turning it into the soil, is it? Used to be general farming practice around here when we moved here. Head the crop, burn the stubble, turn it in. It seems to have gone out of favour.

Stubble is valuable cattle fodder now.
Head the crop, put the cattle to graze on it, cattle dung fertilizer, plow it in, new crop.
Goto, start.

plow it in?

Places other than Kweensland are all doing zero till these days.

Yeah I’ve been looking into that, must be a massive cost save given the prices I’ve been given to till a paddock at the redoubt.

Michael V said:

So, what’s the difference between Biochar and Charcoal?

Biochar’s got bones in it. I chuck bones into the woodheater when it’s roaring, and then pretend the ash is biochar…

:)

Michael V said:

So, what’s the difference between Biochar and Charcoal?

The microstructure of the biochar is more porous and traps water and nutrients and helpful soil microbes.

Peak Warming Man said:

Ian said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Stubble is valuable cattle fodder now.
Head the crop, put the cattle to graze on it, cattle dung fertilizer, plow it in, new crop.
Goto, start.

plow it in?

Places other than Kweensland are all doing zero till these days.

Yeah I’ve been looking into that, must be a massive cost save given the prices I’ve been given to till a paddock at the redoubt.

But these guys have the ‘KNOWLEGE’, when to till and then when to use the equipment to sow, theres a gap of fallow etc etc they charge upward of $150 an hour.

party_pants said:

Michael V said:

So, what’s the difference between Biochar and Charcoal?

The microstructure of the biochar is more porous and traps water and nutrients and helpful soil microbes.

Charcoal makers were big in the 1800’s and earlier in Europe, it was quite an art apparently.

Peak Warming Man said:

party_pants said:

Michael V said:

So, what’s the difference between Biochar and Charcoal?

The microstructure of the biochar is more porous and traps water and nutrients and helpful soil microbes.

Charcoal makers were big in the 1800’s and earlier in Europe, it was quite an art apparently.

Yeah, it’s about restricting the supply of oxygen so the carbon itself does not burn. Even in the drums I made it was a bit tricky to get the air supply just right, and know when the close off and seal the drum to let it cool. On the other hand you don’t want any uncharred wood left over either.

party_pants said:

Peak Warming Man said:

party_pants said:

The microstructure of the biochar is more porous and traps water and nutrients and helpful soil microbes.

Charcoal makers were big in the 1800’s and earlier in Europe, it was quite an art apparently.

Yeah, it’s about restricting the supply of oxygen so the carbon itself does not burn. Even in the drums I made it was a bit tricky to get the air supply just right, and know when the close off and seal the drum to let it cool. On the other hand you don’t want any uncharred wood left over either.

Did you have success, P_P?

Peak Warming Man said:

party_pants said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Charcoal makers were big in the 1800’s and earlier in Europe, it was quite an art apparently.

Yeah, it’s about restricting the supply of oxygen so the carbon itself does not burn. Even in the drums I made it was a bit tricky to get the air supply just right, and know when the close off and seal the drum to let it cool. On the other hand you don’t want any uncharred wood left over either.

Did you have success, P_P?

A modest amount, but then I had to stop for fire bans, and then I had move house because my sisters put the place up for sale.

The real trick was sourcing good dry feedstock. If I had the chance I would have bought a woodchipper machine and made a good stockpile of chips during the summer months that I could make charcoal with during winter when the fire bans were lifted.

IIRC there was an episode of Grand Designs where a bloke lived in the forest and was a charcoal maker.

>>A modest amount, but then I had to stop for fire bans,

That’s gold.

sibeen said:

IIRC there was an episode of Grand Designs where a bloke lived in the forest and was a charcoal maker.

Its expensive to buy as well

sibeen said:

IIRC there was an episode of Grand Designs where a bloke lived in the forest and was a charcoal maker.

No wonder he could afford a good house.

Places around here were selling it at $25 for a 10 kilo bag. It was going to be a nice little sideline business, with the materials all coming from what I could gather off the property, which would have reduced the bushfire hazard in the process by removing the fuel load.

sibeen said:

IIRC there was an episode of Grand Designs where a bloke lived in the forest and was a charcoal maker.

Charcoal was the main cooking fuel in East Africa. For sale in polyweave bags on the sides of the road. Mostly made from eucalypt twigs and other off-cuts. The eucalypt poles were used for building – scaffolding and construction timber poles. No milling.

party_pants said:

sibeen said:

IIRC there was an episode of Grand Designs where a bloke lived in the forest and was a charcoal maker.

No wonder he could afford a good house.

Places around here were selling it at $25 for a 10 kilo bag. It was going to be a nice little sideline business, with the materials all coming from what I could gather off the property, which would have reduced the bushfire hazard in the process by removing the fuel load.

Yes you could undercut them and make some good money especially if you just took cash

Cymek said:

party_pants said:

sibeen said:

IIRC there was an episode of Grand Designs where a bloke lived in the forest and was a charcoal maker.

No wonder he could afford a good house.

Places around here were selling it at $25 for a 10 kilo bag. It was going to be a nice little sideline business, with the materials all coming from what I could gather off the property, which would have reduced the bushfire hazard in the process by removing the fuel load.

Yes you could undercut them and make some good money especially if you just took cash

I was just going to use Gumtree or such, and sell direct.

party_pants said:

Cymek said:

party_pants said:

No wonder he could afford a good house.

Places around here were selling it at $25 for a 10 kilo bag. It was going to be a nice little sideline business, with the materials all coming from what I could gather off the property, which would have reduced the bushfire hazard in the process by removing the fuel load.

Yes you could undercut them and make some good money especially if you just took cash

I was just going to use Gumtree or such, and sell direct.

Good idea

party_pants said:

Cymek said:

party_pants said:

No wonder he could afford a good house.

Places around here were selling it at $25 for a 10 kilo bag. It was going to be a nice little sideline business, with the materials all coming from what I could gather off the property, which would have reduced the bushfire hazard in the process by removing the fuel load.

Yes you could undercut them and make some good money especially if you just took cash

I was just going to use Gumtree or such, and sell direct.

https://www.greenlifesoil.com.au/green-life-soil/biochar-20l

This is cheapest I found and its still not cheap, I bought some but it was probably not enough to make a different, probably need a couple of hundred litres to make a difference

party_pants said:

Cymek said:

party_pants said:

No wonder he could afford a good house.

Places around here were selling it at $25 for a 10 kilo bag. It was going to be a nice little sideline business, with the materials all coming from what I could gather off the property, which would have reduced the bushfire hazard in the process by removing the fuel load.

Yes you could undercut them and make some good money especially if you just took cash

I was just going to use Gumtree or such, and sell direct.

Better off on the side of the road, selling anything on Gumtree or the like means a lot of red tape and the government is all over it.