Date: 11/02/2019 21:46:39
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1344702
Subject: SBS The placebo experiment. The honesty experiment.

Anyone watched or watching these?

What are the results?

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Date: 11/02/2019 22:15:23
From: buffy
ID: 1344705
Subject: re: SBS The placebo experiment. The honesty experiment.

mollwollfumble said:


Anyone watched or watching these?

What are the results?

We’ll have to use the SBS on demand to watch it. See previous posts about my intentions tonight and what happened about checking on a dog.

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Date: 12/02/2019 16:18:08
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1344934
Subject: re: SBS The placebo experiment. The honesty experiment.

mollwollfumble said:


Anyone watched or watching these?

What are the results?

Most experienced pain relief, some considerably. A minority had no change.

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Date: 12/02/2019 16:50:21
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1344955
Subject: re: SBS The placebo experiment. The honesty experiment.

PermeateFree said:


mollwollfumble said:

Anyone watched or watching these?

What are the results?

Most experienced pain relief, some considerably. A minority had no change.

Blackpool. Back pain. Blue and white capsules. Genuine doctors consultation. Told that half and half chance of placebo. Two capsules twice a day. Split between 9 minute consultation and 30 minute consultation. Capsules filled with ground rice.

Results, 38% felt medically better on 9 minute consultation and 51% felt better on 30 minute consultation.

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Date: 12/02/2019 16:55:56
From: Cymek
ID: 1344959
Subject: re: SBS The placebo experiment. The honesty experiment.

mollwollfumble said:


PermeateFree said:

mollwollfumble said:

Anyone watched or watching these?

What are the results?

Most experienced pain relief, some considerably. A minority had no change.

Blackpool. Back pain. Blue and white capsules. Genuine doctors consultation. Told that half and half chance of placebo. Two capsules twice a day. Split between 9 minute consultation and 30 minute consultation. Capsules filled with ground rice.

Results, 38% felt medically better on 9 minute consultation and 51% felt better on 30 minute consultation.

I wonder what the brain is doing when you take a placebo and could you compare it to the genuine medicine and see if the neural patterns are similar

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Date: 12/02/2019 17:00:59
From: Cymek
ID: 1344960
Subject: re: SBS The placebo experiment. The honesty experiment.

Do placebo’s work better if you have taken an actual medicine for your condition and then told the placebo is this medicine, does it trick your brain into acting a similar way as it already knows what the medicine does.
I can understand how it might work for pain relief, endorphin release by a subconscious belief its pain relief medicine but does it work for more complex illnesses.

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Date: 12/02/2019 17:11:00
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1344965
Subject: re: SBS The placebo experiment. The honesty experiment.

I wonder what would happen if the ground rice was replaced by something else.

What is called a “placebo” may be a real painkiller.

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Date: 12/02/2019 17:14:37
From: Cymek
ID: 1344968
Subject: re: SBS The placebo experiment. The honesty experiment.

What would be the overall point of giving a person a placebo, you don’t have access to actual medicine so make something that looks like medicine until you can actually get real medicine

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Date: 12/02/2019 17:16:37
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1344974
Subject: re: SBS The placebo experiment. The honesty experiment.

I’ve asked this question before, but I don’t recall getting a good answer.

If placebo treatments are better than nothing (for many people), why is it that where there is no known effective treatment doctors will administer nothing, rather than a placebo?

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Date: 12/02/2019 17:17:51
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1344975
Subject: re: SBS The placebo experiment. The honesty experiment.

Cymek said:


What would be the overall point of giving a person a placebo, you don’t have access to actual medicine so make something that looks like medicine until you can actually get real medicine

The body fixing itself, or removing a mental block.

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Date: 12/02/2019 17:18:10
From: Cymek
ID: 1344976
Subject: re: SBS The placebo experiment. The honesty experiment.

The Rev Dodgson said:


I’ve asked this question before, but I don’t recall getting a good answer.

If placebo treatments are better than nothing (for many people), why is it that where there is no known effective treatment doctors will administer nothing, rather than a placebo?

Ethically giving false hope ?

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Date: 12/02/2019 17:18:16
From: AwesomeO
ID: 1344977
Subject: re: SBS The placebo experiment. The honesty experiment.

The Rev Dodgson said:


I’ve asked this question before, but I don’t recall getting a good answer.

If placebo treatments are better than nothing (for many people), why is it that where there is no known effective treatment doctors will administer nothing, rather than a placebo?

That would be unethical pretending to treat someone. Opens up all sorts of dodgy stuff if done as a matter of course.

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Date: 12/02/2019 17:19:04
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1344978
Subject: re: SBS The placebo experiment. The honesty experiment.

Cymek said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

I’ve asked this question before, but I don’t recall getting a good answer.

If placebo treatments are better than nothing (for many people), why is it that where there is no known effective treatment doctors will administer nothing, rather than a placebo?

Ethically giving false hope ?

But it’s ethically giving a valid hope.

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Date: 12/02/2019 17:20:03
From: roughbarked
ID: 1344979
Subject: re: SBS The placebo experiment. The honesty experiment.

The Rev Dodgson said:


I’ve asked this question before, but I don’t recall getting a good answer.

If placebo treatments are better than nothing (for many people), why is it that where there is no known effective treatment doctors will administer nothing, rather than a placebo?

To test the theory of mind over matter?

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Date: 12/02/2019 17:20:03
From: AwesomeO
ID: 1344980
Subject: re: SBS The placebo experiment. The honesty experiment.

The Rev Dodgson said:


Cymek said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

I’ve asked this question before, but I don’t recall getting a good answer.

If placebo treatments are better than nothing (for many people), why is it that where there is no known effective treatment doctors will administer nothing, rather than a placebo?

Ethically giving false hope ?

But it’s ethically giving a valid hope.

Doctors might want a point of difference between themselves and witch doctors.

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Date: 12/02/2019 17:21:00
From: furious
ID: 1344982
Subject: re: SBS The placebo experiment. The honesty experiment.

They could always try homeopathy…

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Date: 12/02/2019 17:21:40
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1344983
Subject: re: SBS The placebo experiment. The honesty experiment.

The Rev Dodgson said:


I’ve asked this question before, but I don’t recall getting a good answer.

If placebo treatments are better than nothing (for many people), why is it that where there is no known effective treatment doctors will administer nothing, rather than a placebo?

Some apparently do, but with greater knowledge of its effectiveness, more may do likewise.

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Date: 12/02/2019 17:23:16
From: Cymek
ID: 1344986
Subject: re: SBS The placebo experiment. The honesty experiment.

roughbarked said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

I’ve asked this question before, but I don’t recall getting a good answer.

If placebo treatments are better than nothing (for many people), why is it that where there is no known effective treatment doctors will administer nothing, rather than a placebo?

To test the theory of mind over matter?

How far can it go though you obviously can only try it with something like pain relief and not replace some illness medication with a placebo and tell them it is that medicine. Can it mimic actual complex molecule medicines that has a specific illness or condition to treat.

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Date: 12/02/2019 17:25:20
From: roughbarked
ID: 1344989
Subject: re: SBS The placebo experiment. The honesty experiment.

Cymek said:


roughbarked said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

I’ve asked this question before, but I don’t recall getting a good answer.

If placebo treatments are better than nothing (for many people), why is it that where there is no known effective treatment doctors will administer nothing, rather than a placebo?

To test the theory of mind over matter?

How far can it go though you obviously can only try it with something like pain relief and not replace some illness medication with a placebo and tell them it is that medicine. Can it mimic actual complex molecule medicines that has a specific illness or condition to treat.

Yes it would only be for pain. The skin specialist told me the doctor was prescribing the wrong molecule.

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Date: 12/02/2019 17:25:25
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1344990
Subject: re: SBS The placebo experiment. The honesty experiment.

PermeateFree said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

I’ve asked this question before, but I don’t recall getting a good answer.

If placebo treatments are better than nothing (for many people), why is it that where there is no known effective treatment doctors will administer nothing, rather than a placebo?

Some apparently do, but with greater knowledge of its effectiveness, more may do likewise.

Doctors have commonly prescribed antibiotics for viral infections like colds, purely to satisfy the expectations of the patient. So already quite commonly used although for different reasons.

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Date: 12/02/2019 17:25:28
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1344991
Subject: re: SBS The placebo experiment. The honesty experiment.

roughbarked said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

I’ve asked this question before, but I don’t recall getting a good answer.

If placebo treatments are better than nothing (for many people), why is it that where there is no known effective treatment doctors will administer nothing, rather than a placebo?

To test the theory of mind over matter?

No, to improve people’s health, when there is no effective alternative.

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Date: 12/02/2019 17:26:49
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1344993
Subject: re: SBS The placebo experiment. The honesty experiment.

AwesomeO said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

Cymek said:

Ethically giving false hope ?

But it’s ethically giving a valid hope.

Doctors might want a point of difference between themselves and witch doctors.

Doctors are supposed to work to improve people’s health, not to differentiate themselves from other groups.

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Date: 12/02/2019 17:27:07
From: Dropbear
ID: 1344994
Subject: re: SBS The placebo experiment. The honesty experiment.

The Rev Dodgson said:


Cymek said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

I’ve asked this question before, but I don’t recall getting a good answer.

If placebo treatments are better than nothing (for many people), why is it that where there is no known effective treatment doctors will administer nothing, rather than a placebo?

Ethically giving false hope ?

But it’s ethically giving a valid hope.

Interestingly, from what I remember, the placebo affect doesn’t severely diminish even when you KNOW it’s a placebo.

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Date: 12/02/2019 17:28:04
From: roughbarked
ID: 1344995
Subject: re: SBS The placebo experiment. The honesty experiment.

Dropbear said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

Cymek said:

Ethically giving false hope ?

But it’s ethically giving a valid hope.

Interestingly, from what I remember, the placebo affect doesn’t severely diminish even when you KNOW it’s a placebo.

Taking a tablet can be comforting.

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Date: 12/02/2019 17:29:50
From: Cymek
ID: 1344996
Subject: re: SBS The placebo experiment. The honesty experiment.

It would interesting but probably not allowed to see how it might work for medicine that has nasty side effects but treats a degenerative disease.
Say a medicine that minimises the tremors in a person with Parkinsons but gives them unwanted side effects so you try a placebo for a few months and see what it does.

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Date: 12/02/2019 17:30:01
From: Dropbear
ID: 1344997
Subject: re: SBS The placebo experiment. The honesty experiment.

The Rev Dodgson said:


AwesomeO said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

But it’s ethically giving a valid hope.

Doctors might want a point of difference between themselves and witch doctors.

Doctors are supposed to work to improve people’s health, not to differentiate themselves from other groups.

You’d need to do a lot of study on whether or not the effect wore off, after time … Especially in regards to a lack of medical consultation.. Given that people who had longer consultations reported feeling better than the people who had short ones, it may well be the consultation process (ie: I’m at a doctors, I must be getting good treatment so I must be getting better) that’s making them better.

Then you decide how you can ethically charge for a meaningless consult for a ‘chat’… (of course we all know that happens at the moment, but there’s not a billing code for it)

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Date: 12/02/2019 17:31:22
From: Cymek
ID: 1344998
Subject: re: SBS The placebo experiment. The honesty experiment.

I wonder if you can placebo yourself, get some capsules made up that look just like real pain medicine mix them in with your actual pain medication and see if they work, you have no idea which ones are real.

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Date: 12/02/2019 17:50:22
From: esselte
ID: 1345009
Subject: re: SBS The placebo experiment. The honesty experiment.

The Rev Dodgson said:


If placebo treatments are better than nothing (for many people), why is it that where there is no known effective treatment doctors will administer nothing, rather than a placebo?

Placebo effects are not “better than nothing (for many people)”, they are functionally equivalent to nothing.

Almost nobody seems to understand what the placebo effect actually is. The entire point of creating placebos is that they have no physiological effect.

From:
https://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/the-placebo-effect-proven/

“What most people mean when they say “the” placebo effect is a real physiological effect that derives from belief in the effects of a treatment – a mind-over-matter effect. However, the placebo effect, as it is measured in clinical trials, has a very specific operational definition. It is any and all measured effects other than a physiological response to the treatment itself.

“This includes any physiological responses to belief in the treatment, but also a host of psychological factors such as reporting bias, confirmation bias, risk justification, and assessment bias. It also includes non-specific effects of being in a clinical trial – people treat themselves better when they are being observed, when they are being reminded of their illness because of frequent attention, and when they are encouraged by the hope of benefit. Such things actually affect compliance with other treatments and healthy lifestyles – in other words, people will be more compliant with other medications they may be on, and may eat better and exercise more, etc.

“These variables and others are the reason for double-blinding experiments. Without doubling blinding, these placebo effects will be mixed in with the physiological effects of the treatment, if any.

“Also – many people incorrectly conclude that “the” placebo effect cannot exist in small children or animals, but this is profoundly incorrect. Placebo effects result from observer bias as well – from whoever is interpreting the effects of the treatment on an animal.

“It must also be pointed out that measured placebo effects differ greatly depending on the disease and the outcome being studies. The greatest effect is for pain, typically from 25-35%. This makes sense in that pain is a subjective experience and subject to a host of modifying factors, such as mood and expectation. But also, it has been known for a long time that there exists in the body natural opioids called endorphins that bind to receptors and inhibit pain, the same way the most powerful pain killers do. Therefore there is a known physiological mechanism by which mental effects could inhibit pain.

“Another area where there is a strong placebo effect is any disease that is worsened from psychological stress, such as the risk of heart attacks. Any intervention, or just the act of being treated, that might reduce stress therefore has a known physiological mechanism by which disease can be mitigated.

“But for other diseases, where there isn’t a known physiological mechanism, measured placebo effects are much smaller. Perhaps the most dramatic example of this is cancer survival. Here we have an aggressive disease and a very definitive outcome – death or survival. It turns out there is practically no placebo effect when it comes to cancer survival.

“And here is the real problem with conflating all placebo effects as if they were one giant mind-over-matter effect – people think because there is a large and provable placebo effect for pain, there is therefore a large and provable placebo effect for everything, and that this is evidence for some mystical mental effect over the body (in the absence of known physiological mechanisms).

“This brings us to the current study. What the researchers did was look at an experimental model of pain – heat applied to the skin. They then compared an analgesic cream to a placebo cream, and subjects reported about 26% less pain even with the placebo cream (right in the middle of the typical placebo response to pain). This is nothing new, but they also looked at the spinal cords of the subjects and found that the placebo pain responders had a decrease in the signal in the pain pathways similar to the response to the actual painkiller.

“The press is making it seem as if “the” placebo effect is finally proven – typically missing all of the nuance of this issue. However, while interesting, this study does not really add much new to our understanding. We already knew about the placebo effect for pain, and the prevailing hypothesis is that it was due to endorphins, and therefore we would expect an actual decrease in pain signals in the spinal cord. This study confirms it – but doesn’t change our thinking about it. Also, the study did not in any way investigate the mechanism of the decrease. We assume it is from endorphins, but that’s it.

“This is not to knock this study in any way – just reporting about it. It is a nice proof of concept, and opens the way to further studies to look at which brain areas are involved in placebo effects for pain. It would also be interesting to see if there is any difference in brain activity between placebo responders and non-responders. This may even lead to ways in the future of optimizing pain placebo effects, or triggering them non-pharmacologically.

“I think it is important to make these distinctions regarding the placebo effect because it is so widely misunderstood and this confusion is exploited to support all sorts of unscientific and even harmful medical modalities and interventions.”

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Date: 12/02/2019 17:55:04
From: Cymek
ID: 1345012
Subject: re: SBS The placebo experiment. The honesty experiment.

Thanks esselte that was informative.

If it did work for large number of medications it would mean a complete rethink of all sorts of branches of science.
If you could use mind over matter to fight a disease and it was measurable it borders on psychic power

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Date: 12/02/2019 21:29:17
From: buffy
ID: 1345141
Subject: re: SBS The placebo experiment. The honesty experiment.

Cymek said:


I wonder if you can placebo yourself, get some capsules made up that look just like real pain medicine mix them in with your actual pain medication and see if they work, you have no idea which ones are real.

If you watch the program, Michael Moseley did just this to himself with caffeine pills and “training” his body. It’s a bit long winded to cover here, but he used Pavlovian conditioning to fool his body into thinking an icky looking drink contained a caffeine pill. For a period of time he took the pill with the icky goo, then took the goo without the pill. He still got a caffeine buzz. He tested his reactions on one of those things that sports people use to improve reaction times where you hit a light … hang on, this sort of thing, too hard to explain.

So he did it without caffeine loading, and later loaded, waited for it to take effect (about 10 minutes for him) and then did it again. I can’t remember, but I think he primed his body for about 5 days by actually taking the caffeine pill, and then did the routine without adding the pill with the goo.

A German professor fellow is using this method to train transplant patients’ bodies so they don’t need such high doses of immune suppressants. I forget his name.

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Date: 12/02/2019 21:31:19
From: roughbarked
ID: 1345143
Subject: re: SBS The placebo experiment. The honesty experiment.

buffy said:


Cymek said:

I wonder if you can placebo yourself, get some capsules made up that look just like real pain medicine mix them in with your actual pain medication and see if they work, you have no idea which ones are real.

If you watch the program, Michael Moseley did just this to himself with caffeine pills and “training” his body. It’s a bit long winded to cover here, but he used Pavlovian conditioning to fool his body into thinking an icky looking drink contained a caffeine pill. For a period of time he took the pill with the icky goo, then took the goo without the pill. He still got a caffeine buzz. He tested his reactions on one of those things that sports people use to improve reaction times where you hit a light … hang on, this sort of thing, too hard to explain.

So he did it without caffeine loading, and later loaded, waited for it to take effect (about 10 minutes for him) and then did it again. I can’t remember, but I think he primed his body for about 5 days by actually taking the caffeine pill, and then did the routine without adding the pill with the goo.

A German professor fellow is using this method to train transplant patients’ bodies so they don’t need such high doses of immune suppressants. I forget his name.

I think Freud and Jung did all of this with cocaine and others.

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Date: 12/02/2019 21:33:58
From: buffy
ID: 1345145
Subject: re: SBS The placebo experiment. The honesty experiment.

Here is the German research.

https://www.pnas.org/content/115/16/4223

It’s pretty dense reading.

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Date: 12/02/2019 22:56:56
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1345184
Subject: re: SBS The placebo experiment. The honesty experiment.

roughbarked said:


buffy said:

Cymek said:

I wonder if you can placebo yourself, get some capsules made up that look just like real pain medicine mix them in with your actual pain medication and see if they work, you have no idea which ones are real.

If you watch the program, Michael Moseley did just this to himself with caffeine pills and “training” his body. It’s a bit long winded to cover here, but he used Pavlovian conditioning to fool his body into thinking an icky looking drink contained a caffeine pill. For a period of time he took the pill with the icky goo, then took the goo without the pill. He still got a caffeine buzz. He tested his reactions on one of those things that sports people use to improve reaction times where you hit a light … hang on, this sort of thing, too hard to explain.

So he did it without caffeine loading, and later loaded, waited for it to take effect (about 10 minutes for him) and then did it again. I can’t remember, but I think he primed his body for about 5 days by actually taking the caffeine pill, and then did the routine without adding the pill with the goo.

A German professor fellow is using this method to train transplant patients’ bodies so they don’t need such high doses of immune suppressants. I forget his name.

I think Freud and Jung did all of this with cocaine and others.

It’s a form of hypnosis.

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