generalize envy and jealousy to be wandering comparison, indulge me.

there’s no question they involve comparison.

of wandering, make it up.

i’ll assert jealousy is universal, sure as comparisons are. Is there a human mind not capable of jealousy, even working to avoid it.

i’m wondering, if you fed such a thing, fed the contagion, could a civilization implode. Did it already implode.

some of the motivation for egalitarianism must be to limit, or avoid envy and jealousy, surely.

could you envy someone more egalitarian than yourself? There’s a twist in that idea.

welcome the envy machine.

what’s your primary defense against envy etc?

i’d guess for most people it’s a sense of adequacy.

transition said:

generalize envy and jealousy to be wandering comparison, indulge me.

there’s no question they involve comparison.

of wandering, make it up.

i’ll assert jealousy is universal, sure as comparisons are. Is there a human mind not capable of jealousy, even working to avoid it.

i’m wondering, if you fed such a thing, fed the contagion, could a civilization implode. Did it already implode.

some of the motivation for egalitarianism must be to limit, or avoid envy and jealousy, surely.

could you envy someone more egalitarian than yourself? There’s a twist in that idea.

welcome the envy machine.

what’s your primary defense against envy etc?

i’d guess for most people it’s a sense of adequacy.

I’m starting to sort through the books of my library. The probable oldest is a book from 1911 called “Methods of Ethics” by Sedgewick. It’s a practical guide to ethics. Which is why it’s so old.

The two ethical systems described in detail in the book are Hedonism and Utilitarianism. Here’s what wikipedia says about them:

“Hedonism is a school of thought that argues that the pursuit of pleasure and intrinsic goods are the primary or most important goals of human life. A hedonist strives to maximize net pleasure (pleasure minus pain).”

“Utilitarianism is an ethical and philosophical theory that states that the best action is the one that maximizes the greatest well-being of the greatest number of people, and in some cases, sentient animals.”

Our legal system is based on the British legal system, which is based on the Utilitarianism of John Stuart Mill.

Both ethical systems, as you can see, are free from jealousy and envy. If you’re living a life that is the happiest possible then there’s nothing to be jealous of. If you believe in the greatest happiness of the greatest number then seeing someone else happy is cause for your own happiness.

My first defence against envy is utilitarianism.

My second defence against envy is that when I was young I had three goals in life, and I’ve already achieved all three.

The last time I felt jealous was with my eldest sister. Jealous of her mind. But then again I’m absolutely sure that that’s a two way street, she’s jealous of my mind. The time before that was at a cousin’s place who has a beautiful collection of brass pots – and a place to display them.

I wonder if jealousy, like trust, is a two way street. ie. could it be possibly be true that it’s impossible to be jealous of someone who isn’t jealous of you?

> could you envy someone more egalitarian than yourself? There’s a twist in that idea.

A twist is a mobius strip. If envy is a two way street then that egalitarian person is envious of my egalitarianism. That makes a double twist than brings us straight back to normality.

Let’s move on from jealousy to the anger created by jealousy. One definition of anger is “anger is caused by the earnest desire to throttle the life out of someone who desperately deserves it”, but set that aside and look at the second definition of anger, based on jealousy.

“Anger is generated when you see someone doing something that you want to do, but can’t do because your moral system forbids it”.
To cure yourself of anger, simply cure yourself of jealousy, by realising that the thief, the libertine, the corrupt politician, the reckless driver, the mass murderer, the wealthy, do not have a happier life than you do. Or if they do, take another anti-depressant.

> i’d guess for most people it’s a sense of adequacy.

No. I’m often inadequate.

> if you fed such a thing, fed the contagion, could a civilization implode. Did it already implode.

That boils down to the question – is jealousy a necessary condition for civilisation?

Let me break that down into historical parts.

Entertainment (ie. boredom) gave us art, language and music.
Taxation (ie. government) gave us mathematics and law.
Envy/jealousy gave us war.

Is war necessary for the advance of civilisation? I would claim not, war destroys civilisation. Hedonism ought to be sufficient for the advance of civilisation.

But perhaps I’m wrong here. Because jealousy gives anger, anger gives energy, and energy gives advancement.

transition said:

generalize envy and jealousy to be wandering comparison, indulge me.

there’s no question they involve comparison.

of wandering, make it up.

i’ll assert jealousy is universal, sure as comparisons are. Is there a human mind not capable of jealousy, even working to avoid it.

i’m wondering, if you fed such a thing, fed the contagion, could a civilization implode. Did it already implode.

some of the motivation for egalitarianism must be to limit, or avoid envy and jealousy, surely.

could you envy someone more egalitarian than yourself? There’s a twist in that idea.

welcome the envy machine.

what’s your primary defense against envy etc?

i’d guess for most people it’s a sense of adequacy.

come to mind this morning too, that competitiveness probably wouldn’t have half the influence is does without the mechanisms of envy and jealousy, and competitiveness is a big driver of ideology, part of the animal spirit, apparently.

what’s your primary defense against envy etc?

Using logic to decide if what I am envious of, is justified.
Some of you might know I live with a hoarder and I am envious of people who have an uncluttered house, it causes me great anger and sadness this is how it is for me and nothing I can do or can’t do makes any difference.

In a consumer driven society most envy isn’t even real, you are told what/who to be envious of as a means to get you to buy things you don’t need.

A fair case of envy might be you are born with a broken body and are envious of people whose body works.

You could be envious you don’t have a sin to confess and then realise you have the sin of envy

i’d be real surprised if the mechanisms of envy and jealousy (comparison) aren’t commonly transformed into a sense of fairness.

transition said:

i’d be real surprised if the mechanisms of envy and jealousy (comparison) aren’t commonly transformed into a sense of fairness.

Indeed

I have a neighbour with a lovely house. Neat back yard bigger than ours. Swimming pool, spa, deck, two storeys, plenty of space indoors and cleaner than our place, loving wife and three nice children. He also has inoperable brain cancer.

I’m not jealous.

People are envious of me, my carefree come as you are lifestyle, roaming free