Do we know about this already?

SBAS Project

Geoscience Australia received $160.9 million in the 2018-19 Federal Budget to support the development of an operational Satellite-Based Augmentation System (SBAS) over four years.

The Australian SBAS will augment Global Navigation Satellite System (GNSS) signals to deliver a satellite positioning capability across all of Australia and its maritime zones with decimetre accuracy. It will also support the aviation, maritime and road transport sectors which have a requirement for high-integrity positioning-guaranteed performance with metre level accuracy.

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Hello drone delivery networks….

what about altitude, better resolution than 50m increments?

Rule 303 said:

Do we know about this already?

SBAS Project

Geoscience Australia received $160.9 million in the 2018-19 Federal Budget to support the development of an operational Satellite-Based Augmentation System (SBAS) over four years.

The Australian SBAS will augment Global Navigation Satellite System (GNSS) signals to deliver a satellite positioning capability across all of Australia and its maritime zones with decimetre accuracy. It will also support the aviation, maritime and road transport sectors which have a requirement for high-integrity positioning-guaranteed performance with metre level accuracy.

More

Hello drone delivery networks….

Sounds good, has GPS improved for bushwalkers recently in forrest areas?
Last time I tried using it (10 years ago about) it wasn’t real good.

party_pants said:

what about altitude, better resolution than 50m increments?

Yep. 1m.

Peak Warming Man said:

Sounds good, has GPS improved for bushwalkers recently in forrest areas?
Last time I tried using it (10 years ago about) it wasn’t real good.

Any Sat device has to be able to see the sats. Signal from four sats is necessary for good trilateration.

The current state of play is 5M accuracy.

hi from chez bu. nice mini pud with arts and dv earlier.

First Dog

Rule 303 said:

Do we know about this already?

SBAS Project

Geoscience Australia received $160.9 million in the 2018-19 Federal Budget to support the development of an operational Satellite-Based Augmentation System (SBAS) over four years.

The Australian SBAS will augment Global Navigation Satellite System (GNSS) signals to deliver a satellite positioning capability across all of Australia and its maritime zones with decimetre accuracy. It will also support the aviation, maritime and road transport sectors which have a requirement for high-integrity positioning-guaranteed performance with metre level accuracy.

More

Hello drone delivery networks….

Do you understand how this technology works? “Computation facility which adopts GMV software” what’s GMV software?. “Corrections are being upload to the Inmarsat 4F1 satellite”. What’s Inmarsat 4F1? It’s in a geosynchronous equatorial orbit way way above the GPS constellation, and covers from India to Hawaii, centred on New Guinea. What does it normally “communicate” at other times?

I wonder …

The “figure of the Earth”. GPS uses a mathematical model called WGS84 for the shape of the globe. That’s a bit inaccurate, it was standardized in 1984. A better version is EGM96, developed in 1996, and there are others more recent that aren’t much different. Is that what this means by “corrections”? Or are “corrections” a way to reduce statistical fluctuations by better time-averaging of satellite data?

mollwollfumble said:

Do you understand how this technology works? “Computation facility which adopts GMV software” what’s GMV software?. “Corrections are being upload to the Inmarsat 4F1 satellite”. What’s Inmarsat 4F1? It’s in a geosynchronous equatorial orbit way way above the GPS constellation, and covers from India to Hawaii, centred on New Guinea. What does it normally “communicate” at other times?

I wonder …

The “figure of the Earth”. GPS uses a mathematical model called WGS84 for the shape of the globe. That’s a bit inaccurate, it was standardized in 1984. A better version is EGM96, developed in 1996, and there are others more recent that aren’t much different. Is that what this means by “corrections”? Or are “corrections” a way to reduce statistical fluctuations by better time-averaging of satellite data?

I’m sorry I don’t know the answers to these questions, Moll, but you might get some more info from the bloke who ran the lecture I attended today:
Dr John Dawson, Section Leader – Geoscience Australia

Peak Warming Man said:

Sounds good, has GPS improved for bushwalkers recently in forrest areas?
Last time I tried using it (10 years ago about) it wasn’t real good.

Out in the bush my Garmin device is good for around 4mt.

fsm said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Sounds good, has GPS improved for bushwalkers recently in forrest areas?
Last time I tried using it (10 years ago about) it wasn’t real good.

Out in the bush my Garmin device is good for around 4mt.

Enough for most peeps to get lost in? ;)

fsm said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Sounds good, has GPS improved for bushwalkers recently in forrest areas?
Last time I tried using it (10 years ago about) it wasn’t real good.

Out in the bush my Garmin device is good for around 4mt.

Depends on canopy cover. Not much good in rainforest.

Tamb said:

fsm said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Sounds good, has GPS improved for bushwalkers recently in forrest areas?
Last time I tried using it (10 years ago about) it wasn’t real good.

Out in the bush my Garmin device is good for around 4mt.

Depends on canopy cover. Not much good in rainforest.

Yes. They’re a satellite based navigation system. They rely on being able to receive signals from satellites.

I gather te signal is still dithered, so the bad guys can’t use it so easy to fly missiles

Religion > sadism > manically depressed people.

Tau.Neutrino said:

Religion > sadism > manically depressed people.

How did that happen
That did not happen

Alternatives to GPS

transition said:

I gather te signal is still dithered, so the bad guys can’t use it so easy to fly missiles

I reckon 10cm should be accurate enough for your average missile. Definitely enough to bullseye womp rats in a T-16 on Alderaan….

Tau.Neutrino said:

Alternatives to GPS

No GPS, no problem: Next-generation navigation

No GPS? No problem, there are increasingly more options

Tau.Neutrino said:

Alternatives to GPS

There’s about half a dozen other countries with Sat nav systems, some of whom are sufficiently scared of the US that they would probably share.

Rule 303 said:

transition said:

I gather te signal is still dithered, so the bad guys can’t use it so easy to fly missiles

I reckon 10cm should be accurate enough for your average missile. Definitely enough to bullseye womp rats in a T-16 on Alderaan….

well I dunno if anything flying at speed could get those accuracies, of if accurancy in certain areas is steerable, you know if you live in a volatile shithole the dither in the code for your location might go uncorrectable.

the guys on alderaan might not get full accuracy.

transition said:

Rule 303 said:

transition said:

I gather te signal is still dithered, so the bad guys can’t use it so easy to fly missiles

I reckon 10cm should be accurate enough for your average missile. Definitely enough to bullseye womp rats in a T-16 on Alderaan….

well I dunno if anything flying at speed could get those accuracies, of if accurancy in certain areas is steerable, you know if you live in a volatile shithole the dither in the code for your location might go uncorrectable.

the guys on alderaan might not get full accuracy.

I’m told a modern smart phone is capable of receiving GPS, GLONASS, SBAS and PPP.

Rule 303 said:

transition said:

Rule 303 said:

I reckon 10cm should be accurate enough for your average missile. Definitely enough to bullseye womp rats in a T-16 on Alderaan….

well I dunno if anything flying at speed could get those accuracies, of if accurancy in certain areas is steerable, you know if you live in a volatile shithole the dither in the code for your location might go uncorrectable.

the guys on alderaan might not get full accuracy.

I’m told a modern smart phone is capable of receiving GPS, GLONASS, SBAS and PPP.

The “dithering” accuracy problem was turned off over Australia well over 20 years ago.

As a geologist, relying on GPS, I really noticed the difference with hand-held GPS. From >250 m inaccuracy to <5 m inaccuracy was a seriously major improvement. Previously, a 1:25000 map was a better locator than GPS. After the “dithering” was turned off, GPS was far superior. And, with a base station at a reproducible location to append the GPS, inaccuracies came down to centimetre (and sometimes) millimetre scale.

Smart phones are capable of <5 m inaccuracy sometimes, <10 metres usually. Good enough for roads etc.

Michael V said:

Rule 303 said:

transition said:

well I dunno if anything flying at speed could get those accuracies, of if accurancy in certain areas is steerable, you know if you live in a volatile shithole the dither in the code for your location might go uncorrectable.

the guys on alderaan might not get full accuracy.

I’m told a modern smart phone is capable of receiving GPS, GLONASS, SBAS and PPP.

The “dithering” accuracy problem was turned off over Australia well over 20 years ago.

As a geologist, relying on GPS, I really noticed the difference with hand-held GPS. From >250 m inaccuracy to <5 m inaccuracy was a seriously major improvement. Previously, a 1:25000 map was a better locator than GPS. After the “dithering” was turned off, GPS was far superior. And, with a base station at a reproducible location to append the GPS, inaccuracies came down to centimetre (and sometimes) millimetre scale.

Smart phones are capable of <5 m inaccuracy sometimes, <10 metres usually. Good enough for roads etc.

But vertical accuracy is not as good as horizontal accuracy.

I’d be really interested to know how that “base station at a reproducible location” helps. Could that be part of the new software?

mollwollfumble said:

Michael V said:

Rule 303 said:

I’m told a modern smart phone is capable of receiving GPS, GLONASS, SBAS and PPP.

The “dithering” accuracy problem was turned off over Australia well over 20 years ago.

As a geologist, relying on GPS, I really noticed the difference with hand-held GPS. From >250 m inaccuracy to <5 m inaccuracy was a seriously major improvement. Previously, a 1:25000 map was a better locator than GPS. After the “dithering” was turned off, GPS was far superior. And, with a base station at a reproducible location to append the GPS, inaccuracies came down to centimetre (and sometimes) millimetre scale.

Smart phones are capable of <5 m inaccuracy sometimes, <10 metres usually. Good enough for roads etc.

But vertical accuracy is not as good as horizontal accuracy.

I’d be really interested to know how that “base station at a reproducible location” helps. Could that be part of the new software?

In simple terms, the base station is sending out a GPS-type time signal from a location that can be accurately identified. Somewhere nearby (usually within a few km). Because the atmospheric lensing problems of distant satellites (think twinkling stars) can be accounted for, it can make the GPS satellite signals far more accurate.

Michael V said:

Rule 303 said:

transition said:

well I dunno if anything flying at speed could get those accuracies, of if accurancy in certain areas is steerable, you know if you live in a volatile shithole the dither in the code for your location might go uncorrectable.

the guys on alderaan might not get full accuracy.

I’m told a modern smart phone is capable of receiving GPS, GLONASS, SBAS and PPP.

The “dithering” accuracy problem was turned off over Australia well over 20 years ago.

As a geologist, relying on GPS, I really noticed the difference with hand-held GPS. From >250 m inaccuracy to <5 m inaccuracy was a seriously major improvement. Previously, a 1:25000 map was a better locator than GPS. After the “dithering” was turned off, GPS was far superior. And, with a base station at a reproducible location to append the GPS, inaccuracies came down to centimetre (and sometimes) millimetre scale.

Smart phones are capable of <5 m inaccuracy sometimes, <10 metres usually. Good enough for roads etc.

so’s no dither at all, or update limitations, you’re getting same accuracy as military would?

of GPS I mean

Tau.Neutrino said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Alternatives to GPS

No GPS, no problem: Next-generation navigation

No GPS? No problem, there are increasingly more options

“This paper examines two alternatives to GPS: bathymetric and celestial navigation.” Neither is anywhere as good as GPS. Cruise missiles use bathymetric navigation, too.

“navigation system has been developed that exploits existing environmental signals such as cellular and Wi-Fi”. Also nowhere near as good.

“Visual tracking of satellites”. Ditto.

transition said:

Michael V said:

Rule 303 said:

I’m told a modern smart phone is capable of receiving GPS, GLONASS, SBAS and PPP.

The “dithering” accuracy problem was turned off over Australia well over 20 years ago.

As a geologist, relying on GPS, I really noticed the difference with hand-held GPS. From >250 m inaccuracy to <5 m inaccuracy was a seriously major improvement. Previously, a 1:25000 map was a better locator than GPS. After the “dithering” was turned off, GPS was far superior. And, with a base station at a reproducible location to append the GPS, inaccuracies came down to centimetre (and sometimes) millimetre scale.

Smart phones are capable of <5 m inaccuracy sometimes, <10 metres usually. Good enough for roads etc.

so’s no dither at all, or update limitations, you’re getting same accuracy as military would?

Well, with a ground station taking care of the atmospheric lensing problems (as the military do), yes. With just a hand-held unit and no ground station, no.

transition said:

Michael V said:

Rule 303 said:

I’m told a modern smart phone is capable of receiving GPS, GLONASS, SBAS and PPP.

The “dithering” accuracy problem was turned off over Australia well over 20 years ago.

As a geologist, relying on GPS, I really noticed the difference with hand-held GPS. From >250 m inaccuracy to <5 m inaccuracy was a seriously major improvement. Previously, a 1:25000 map was a better locator than GPS. After the “dithering” was turned off, GPS was far superior. And, with a base station at a reproducible location to append the GPS, inaccuracies came down to centimetre (and sometimes) millimetre scale.

Smart phones are capable of <5 m inaccuracy sometimes, <10 metres usually. Good enough for roads etc.

so’s no dither at all, or update limitations, you’re getting same accuracy as military would?

Australia is currently lagging behind most of the world (we have 5m accuracy) but when the project linked in the OP is completed, we’ll be in front of the pack (10cm accuracy), by 2023 – Or so says Geosciences Australia.

Rule 303 said:

transition said:

Michael V said:

The “dithering” accuracy problem was turned off over Australia well over 20 years ago.

As a geologist, relying on GPS, I really noticed the difference with hand-held GPS. From >250 m inaccuracy to <5 m inaccuracy was a seriously major improvement. Previously, a 1:25000 map was a better locator than GPS. After the “dithering” was turned off, GPS was far superior. And, with a base station at a reproducible location to append the GPS, inaccuracies came down to centimetre (and sometimes) millimetre scale.

Smart phones are capable of <5 m inaccuracy sometimes, <10 metres usually. Good enough for roads etc.

so’s no dither at all, or update limitations, you’re getting same accuracy as military would?

Australia is currently lagging behind most of the world (we have 5m accuracy) but when the project linked in the OP is completed, we’ll be in front of the pack (10cm accuracy), by 2023 – Or so says Geosciences Australia.

We are lagging because we have no science minister.

Michael V said:

transition said:

Michael V said:

The “dithering” accuracy problem was turned off over Australia well over 20 years ago.

As a geologist, relying on GPS, I really noticed the difference with hand-held GPS. From >250 m inaccuracy to <5 m inaccuracy was a seriously major improvement. Previously, a 1:25000 map was a better locator than GPS. After the “dithering” was turned off, GPS was far superior. And, with a base station at a reproducible location to append the GPS, inaccuracies came down to centimetre (and sometimes) millimetre scale.

Smart phones are capable of <5 m inaccuracy sometimes, <10 metres usually. Good enough for roads etc.

so’s no dither at all, or update limitations, you’re getting same accuracy as military would?

Well, with a ground station taking care of the atmospheric lensing problems (as the military do), yes. With just a hand-held unit and no ground station, no.

And from a gazing point of view (particularly in difficult county – read most of Australia), virtual electric fences will become the thing soon, I’m sure. GPS, location resetable remotely, with an electric shock when the animal strays beyond its limits.

Michael V said:

Michael V said:

Well, with a ground station taking care of the atmospheric lensing problems (as the military do), yes. With just a hand-held unit and no ground station, no.

And from a gazing point of view (particularly in difficult county – read most of Australia), virtual electric fences will become the thing soon, I’m sure. GPS, location resetable remotely, with an electric shock when the animal strays beyond its limits.

Already there.

Rule 303 said:

Michael V said:

Michael V said:

Well, with a ground station taking care of the atmospheric lensing problems (as the military do), yes. With just a hand-held unit and no ground station, no.

And from a gazing point of view (particularly in difficult county – read most of Australia), virtual electric fences will become the thing soon, I’m sure. GPS, location resetable remotely, with an electric shock when the animal strays beyond its limits.

Already there.

The stuff’s there, sure, but the uptake is still low. In the long run, it’ll save heaps on repairing and replacing fences.

(I had the original discussions on this notion with a cattle-and-sheep grazier who had a difficult property, in 1997…)

Michael V said:

Rule 303 said:

Michael V said:

And from a gazing point of view (particularly in difficult county – read most of Australia), virtual electric fences will become the thing soon, I’m sure. GPS, location resetable remotely, with an electric shock when the animal strays beyond its limits.

Already there.

The stuff’s there, sure, but the uptake is still low. In the long run, it’ll save heaps on repairing and replacing fences.

(I had the original discussions on this notion with a cattle-and-sheep grazier who had a difficult property, in 1997…)

Interesting. It might help with the move to short term intense herd grazing. It seems to work well for many land types but it more labour intensive because the herd is moved daily into a new section. Lots of putting up snd taking down temporary fences.

Michael V said:

Rule 303 said:

Michael V said:

And from a gazing point of view (particularly in difficult county – read most of Australia), virtual electric fences will become the thing soon, I’m sure. GPS, location resetable remotely, with an electric shock when the animal strays beyond its limits.

Already there.

The stuff’s there, sure, but the uptake is still low. In the long run, it’ll save heaps on repairing and replacing fences.

(I had the original discussions on this notion with a cattle-and-sheep grazier who had a difficult property, in 1997…)

Ahh, yep, OK. Again, my knowledge is gleaned from Geo Aus, and they’re a government department, sooooo….

Rule 303 said:

Michael V said:

Rule 303 said:

Already there.

The stuff’s there, sure, but the uptake is still low. In the long run, it’ll save heaps on repairing and replacing fences.

(I had the original discussions on this notion with a cattle-and-sheep grazier who had a difficult property, in 1997…)

Ahh, yep, OK. Again, my knowledge is gleaned from Geo Aus, and they’re a government department, sooooo….

Looks like CSIRO are all over it: Virtual Fencing

If anyone’s interested/cares, a few years ago I built a 3-axis accelerometer. If it knew the original starting point, it could find the present position (lat/long +altitude) by measuring the acceleration (magnitude and duration) in each direction. It was remarkably accurate (better than ±50cm in each direction) — and didn’t need gps after being initially set.

btm said:

If anyone’s interested/cares, a few years ago I built a 3-axis accelerometer. If it knew the original starting point, it could find the present position (lat/long +altitude) by measuring the acceleration (magnitude and duration) in each direction. It was remarkably accurate (better than ±50cm in each direction) — and didn’t need gps after being initially set.

That’s a cool bit of kit.

I think smart phones are probably using their accelerometer to fill in blanks and stabilise their GPS record, because (a) I have looked closely at the files created by a couple of devices over the same route, at the same time, in the same vehicle; and the smart phone track is a lot more complete and smoother than another GPS device, and (b) phone navigation systems are still working in tunnels.

I’m not saying it’s more accurate, only that adjustment for information from the accelerometer would explain what I was seeing.

btm said:

If anyone’s interested/cares, a few years ago I built a 3-axis accelerometer. If it knew the original starting point, it could find the present position (lat/long +altitude) by measuring the acceleration (magnitude and duration) in each direction. It was remarkably accurate (better than ±50cm in each direction) — and didn’t need gps after being initially set.

Dang it, we needed one of those for our Google X prize rocket attempt.

Michael V said:

Rule 303 said:

Michael V said:

And from a gazing point of view (particularly in difficult county – read most of Australia), virtual electric fences will become the thing soon, I’m sure. GPS, location resetable remotely, with an electric shock when the animal strays beyond its limits.

Already there.

The stuff’s there, sure, but the uptake is still low. In the long run, it’ll save heaps on repairing and replacing fences.

(I had the original discussions on this notion with a cattle-and-sheep grazier who had a difficult property, in 1997…)

Wow. Tips me hat to you.

Michael V said:

Rule 303 said:

Michael V said:

And from a gazing point of view (particularly in difficult county – read most of Australia), virtual electric fences will become the thing soon, I’m sure. GPS, location resetable remotely, with an electric shock when the animal strays beyond its limits.

Already there.

The stuff’s there, sure, but the uptake is still low. In the long run, it’ll save heaps on repairing and replacing fences.

(I had the original discussions on this notion with a cattle-and-sheep grazier who had a difficult property, in 1997…)

Very interesting.