Spiny Norman said:

Remove three things from our world -
- Religion
- Money
- Reliance on coal/oil

That’ll be a good start.

While i agree in principle that a world without money wouod be a good thing, I’m having trouble trying to figure out how a world without money would work.

If i look at SciFi, i note that money can be replaced by “credit”. Not quite sure how that would work.

Or going back in time, both contracts and taxes are possible in a barter economy.

I think of money as a measure of human labour. In that system land has no value so cannot be bought or sold. But formalising that without money, using timesheets and piece rates becomes draconian.

>- Money

it’s an interesting contemplation, or thought experiment, further, if you had to take all the technology humans have today, intelligence, and make it work, what would emerge.

clearly there has to be some accounting system that represents value.

If you want no money, get no government …

poikilotherm said:

If you want no money, get no government …

Not in a species that worships natural selection but ignores natural equilibrium.

Rule 303 said:

poikilotherm said:

If you want no money, get no government …

Not in a species that worships natural selection but ignores natural equilibrium.

Why we ended up with governments in the first place.

me – i’m turning the airconditioner on, is that alright?

lady – you’ve got a jumper on!!

me – aghhrr…right

takes jumper off

not sure how you’d maintain value (and grow value) without competition (capitalism), seems essential.

the accounting system doesn’t seem completely independent of that either.

the very convenient conversion qualities of money seem too useful to do away with.

transition said:

not sure how you’d maintain value (and grow value) without competition (capitalism), seems essential.

the accounting system doesn’t seem completely independent of that either.

the very convenient conversion qualities of money seem too useful to do away with.

> the very convenient conversion qualities of money seem too useful to do away with.

It seems that way to me too.

A feasible alternative to money is drugs. But that’s not necessarily better. Tobacco and opium have both served as money in the past.

Animals seem to survived quite well wothout money.

A cashless society seems the way of the future.

>A cashless society seems the way of the future.

I wouldn’t like to see that

A cashless society does seem inevitable. If all we are seeing is electronic zeros it’s very easy to slip into Judge Dredd futuristic thinking where society consists of credits issued by government and banks. It’s probably a wizard of oz scenario that can be maintained for a short while and politicians can even authorise extra credits to boost popularity. Though these sort of ideas seem to fall down because eventually there has to be a value underlying, albeit value has values of its own.

And in anticipation of a society breakdown invest in scotch. Seriously, we know from history that alcohol retains value, actually increases in value beyond gold and jewels, and unlike tobacco which is another breakdown currency, it doesn’t go off and rats don’t make nests in it.

AwesomeO said:

A cashless society does seem inevitable. If all we are seeing is electronic zeros it’s very easy to slip into Judge Dredd futuristic thinking where society consists of credits issued by government and banks. It’s probably a wizard of oz scenario that can be maintained for a short while and politicians can even authorise extra credits to boost popularity. Though these sort of ideas seem to fall down because eventually there has to be a value underlying, albeit value has values of its own.

And in anticipation of a society breakdown invest in scotch. Seriously, we know from history that alcohol retains value, actually increases in value beyond gold and jewels, and unlike tobacco which is another breakdown currency, it doesn’t go off and rats don’t make nests in it.

Hmmm. The Rum Corps.

Tamb said:

AwesomeO said:

A cashless society does seem inevitable. If all we are seeing is electronic zeros it’s very easy to slip into Judge Dredd futuristic thinking where society consists of credits issued by government and banks. It’s probably a wizard of oz scenario that can be maintained for a short while and politicians can even authorise extra credits to boost popularity. Though these sort of ideas seem to fall down because eventually there has to be a value underlying, albeit value has values of its own.

And in anticipation of a society breakdown invest in scotch. Seriously, we know from history that alcohol retains value, actually increases in value beyond gold and jewels, and unlike tobacco which is another breakdown currency, it doesn’t go off and rats don’t make nests in it.

Hmmm. The Rum Corps.

Yes!

AwesomeO said:

A cashless society does seem inevitable. If all we are seeing is electronic zeros it’s very easy to slip into Judge Dredd futuristic thinking where society consists of credits issued by government and banks. It’s probably a wizard of oz scenario that can be maintained for a short while and politicians can even authorise extra credits to boost popularity. Though these sort of ideas seem to fall down because eventually there has to be a value underlying, albeit value has values of its own.

And in anticipation of a society breakdown invest in scotch. Seriously, we know from history that alcohol retains value, actually increases in value beyond gold and jewels, and unlike tobacco which is another breakdown currency, it doesn’t go off and rats don’t make nests in it.

mmm modern monetary theory…

“Money is just tokens/credits/whosawhatsits. They only acquire value because the government says so. The government says, “you owe me taxes and you must pay these taxes using the money we create.” And that proclamation alone makes state money valuable. MMT says legal tender laws only entrench state money’s use.

In effect, you are paying government with your hard work via the currency. You work, then receive currency for your goods and services, and then pay a portion of that money to the government as tax in the currency the government dictates – or face the penalty of law.

Notice that, if the government is using ‘tokens’ it creates out of thin air as money with no intrinsic value, any debt the government has in that currency is effectively just an IOU. Treasury bonds, for example, are simply US government IOUs since the US government can manufacture infinite amounts of dollars if it so chooses. This is why proponents of MMT say a sovereign currency issuing government has an unlimited ability to repay any and all debts in its own currency.”

Other breakdown currencies have been petrol, chocolate and nylons. Don’t think nylons would work anymore.

In American prisons a unit of currency is packets of flavoured noodles which unlike like cigarettes don’t get confiscated below certain amounts which is the guards imposing a curb on inflation.

poikilotherm said:

AwesomeO said:

A cashless society does seem inevitable. If all we are seeing is electronic zeros it’s very easy to slip into Judge Dredd futuristic thinking where society consists of credits issued by government and banks. It’s probably a wizard of oz scenario that can be maintained for a short while and politicians can even authorise extra credits to boost popularity. Though these sort of ideas seem to fall down because eventually there has to be a value underlying, albeit value has values of its own.

And in anticipation of a society breakdown invest in scotch. Seriously, we know from history that alcohol retains value, actually increases in value beyond gold and jewels, and unlike tobacco which is another breakdown currency, it doesn’t go off and rats don’t make nests in it.

mmm modern monetary theory…

“Money is just tokens/credits/whosawhatsits. They only acquire value because the government says so. The government says, “you owe me taxes and you must pay these taxes using the money we create.” And that proclamation alone makes state money valuable. MMT says legal tender laws only entrench state money’s use.

In effect, you are paying government with your hard work via the currency. You work, then receive currency for your goods and services, and then pay a portion of that money to the government as tax in the currency the government dictates – or face the penalty of law.

Notice that, if the government is using ‘tokens’ it creates out of thin air as money with no intrinsic value, any debt the government has in that currency is effectively just an IOU. Treasury bonds, for example, are simply US government IOUs since the US government can manufacture infinite amounts of dollars if it so chooses. This is why proponents of MMT say a sovereign currency issuing government has an unlimited ability to repay any and all debts in its own currency.”

That’s why it was so serious a few years ago when America was in danger of defaulting on a periodic interest payment on its bonds, the whole edifice of confidence would have come crashing down.

poikilotherm said:

AwesomeO said:

A cashless society does seem inevitable. If all we are seeing is electronic zeros it’s very easy to slip into Judge Dredd futuristic thinking where society consists of credits issued by government and banks. It’s probably a wizard of oz scenario that can be maintained for a short while and politicians can even authorise extra credits to boost popularity. Though these sort of ideas seem to fall down because eventually there has to be a value underlying, albeit value has values of its own.

And in anticipation of a society breakdown invest in scotch. Seriously, we know from history that alcohol retains value, actually increases in value beyond gold and jewels, and unlike tobacco which is another breakdown currency, it doesn’t go off and rats don’t make nests in it.

mmm modern monetary theory…

“Money is just tokens/credits/whosawhatsits. They only acquire value because the government says so. The government says, “you owe me taxes and you must pay these taxes using the money we create.” And that proclamation alone makes state money valuable. MMT says legal tender laws only entrench state money’s use.

In effect, you are paying government with your hard work via the currency. You work, then receive currency for your goods and services, and then pay a portion of that money to the government as tax in the currency the government dictates – or face the penalty of law.

Notice that, if the government is using ‘tokens’ it creates out of thin air as money with no intrinsic value, any debt the government has in that currency is effectively just an IOU. Treasury bonds, for example, are simply US government IOUs since the US government can manufacture infinite amounts of dollars if it so chooses. This is why proponents of MMT say a sovereign currency issuing government has an unlimited ability to repay any and all debts in its own currency.”

Good way to boost inflation.

transition said:

>A cashless society seems the way of the future.

I wouldn’t like to see that

There’s plenty of countries that are effectively cashless and unregulated already – They transfer mobile phone pre-paid credit dollars to each other.

Rule 303 said:

transition said:

>A cashless society seems the way of the future.

I wouldn’t like to see that

There’s plenty of countries that are effectively cashless and unregulated already – They transfer mobile phone pre-paid credit dollars to each other.

How do they buy the credit in the first place? With cash …

“This is why proponents of MMT say a sovereign currency issuing government has an unlimited ability to repay any and all debts in its own currency.”

True to a certain extent but only if other entities are willing to accept those currencies. The USSR had to trade in swops of oil and grain etc, as no one (apart from its own satellites and even then) would accept rubles.

poikilotherm said:

Rule 303 said:

transition said:

>A cashless society seems the way of the future.

I wouldn’t like to see that

There’s plenty of countries that are effectively cashless and unregulated already – They transfer mobile phone pre-paid credit dollars to each other.

How do they buy the credit in the first place? With cash …

Pre-paid voucher for Christmas from Mum?

reckon if governments tighten up the cash money circulating (call governments those with influence to do that), that it eats into social capital in ways. Social capital isn’t all technically legal, but essential.

borrowed that term way back (social capital) from a feminist social thinker I reckon. Credit where due.

> if the government is using ‘tokens’ it creates out of thin air as money with no intrinsic value

Cash already has no intrinsic value. Its value only relies on universal acceptance.

transition said:

>A cashless society seems the way of the future.

I wouldn’t like to see that

A bit like a paperless society. I can bemoan the loss of good non-fiction books all I like, but that doesn’t mean that I will actually read one. Diversity of options seems most satisfactory right now.

Rule 303 said:

There’s plenty of countries that are effectively cashless and unregulated already – They transfer mobile phone pre-paid credit dollars to each other.

There are? Checks web. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cashless_society#Amount_of_cash_in_circulation

I’m not sure what is the best way to measure cashless society. eg. in the following table, I don’t know if that is percent by number of transactions or percent by value transferred.

In Singapore, 61% of payments are cashless.
In Sweden, 59%
In Australia, 35%
In Japan, 14%
In South Africa, 6%
In Indonesia, 0%

There seem to be five definitions of “money”, definitions that vary a bit from country to country, These five definitions are denoted M0, M1, M2, M3 and M4.

Definition of M0, M1, M2, M3, M4. Different measures of money supply.
M0 = coins and notes in circulation
M1 = also called “narrow money”, is M0 + other money equivalents that are easily convertible into cash.
M2 = M1 plus short-term time deposits in banks and 24-hour money market funds.
M3 = M2 plus longer-term time deposits and money market funds with more than 24-hour maturity.
M4 = M3 plus other deposits.

The term “broad money” is used to describe M2, M3 or M4, depending on country.