More evidence of sound waves carrying mass

A trio of researchers at Columbia University has found more evidence showing that sound waves carry mass. In their paper published in the journal Physical Review Letters, Angelo Esposito, Rafael Krichevsky and Alberto Nicolis describe using effective field theory techniques to confirm the results found by a team last year attempting to measure mass carried by sound waves.

Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2019-03-evidence-mass.html#jCp

So in space, they can hear you scream if you yell in the right direction, that’s if you have an antenna that can pick up mass?

Could quantum radio pick up the mass of a sound wave in space?

Tau.Neutrino said:

More evidence of sound waves carrying mass

A trio of researchers at Columbia University has found more evidence showing that sound waves carry mass. In their paper published in the journal Physical Review Letters, Angelo Esposito, Rafael Krichevsky and Alberto Nicolis describe using effective field theory techniques to confirm the results found by a team last year attempting to measure mass carried by sound waves.

Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2019-03-evidence-mass.html#jCp

So in space, they can hear you scream if you yell in the right direction, that’s if you have an antenna that can pick up mass?

Could quantum radio pick up the mass of a sound wave in space?

> So in space, they can hear you scream if you yell in the right direction

Not in a perfect vacuum.

That’s a good little report, but I grit my teeth that what is said is in direct contradiction to the what is said by an earlier report on the same group of people on the same phenomenon.

The report says:

• Sound waves carried a small amount of mass and generate a gravitational field when moving through superfluid helium.

The earlier report says:

• Sound waves might have negative mass, and because of that, have negative gravity.

So is it positive or negative? Reading the latest report, both say that sound has negative mass.

“Now this effect is completely equivalent to standard refraction: in the presence of gravity, the pressure of the superfluid depends on depth, and so does the speed of sound. As a result, in the geometric acoustics limit, soundwaves do not propagate along straight lines. Because of this, one might be tempted to dismiss any interpretation of this phenomenon in terms of gravitational mass.”

“the effect is due to a coupling with gravity in the effective Lagrangian of the phonon, the same coupling must affect the field equation for gravity”.

I’m not sure about the word “must” here.

“The phonon carries negative mass. Moreover, this is not due to the usual equivalence of mass and energy in relativity: the effect survives in the nonrelativistic limit. And, finally, it is not a quantum effect, because it applies unaltered to classical waves.”

Hmm. Sorry, not convinced yet.

mollwollfumble said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

More evidence of sound waves carrying mass

A trio of researchers at Columbia University has found more evidence showing that sound waves carry mass. In their paper published in the journal Physical Review Letters, Angelo Esposito, Rafael Krichevsky and Alberto Nicolis describe using effective field theory techniques to confirm the results found by a team last year attempting to measure mass carried by sound waves.

Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2019-03-evidence-mass.html#jCp

So in space, they can hear you scream if you yell in the right direction, that’s if you have an antenna that can pick up mass?

Could quantum radio pick up the mass of a sound wave in space?

> So in space, they can hear you scream if you yell in the right direction

Not in a perfect vacuum.

That’s a good little report, but I grit my teeth that what is said is in direct contradiction to the what is said by an earlier report on the same group of people on the same phenomenon.

The report says:

• Sound waves carried a small amount of mass and generate a gravitational field when moving through superfluid helium.

The earlier report says:

• Sound waves might have negative mass, and because of that, have negative gravity.

So is it positive or negative? Reading the latest report, both say that sound has negative mass.

“Now this effect is completely equivalent to standard refraction: in the presence of gravity, the pressure of the superfluid depends on depth, and so does the speed of sound. As a result, in the geometric acoustics limit, soundwaves do not propagate along straight lines. Because of this, one might be tempted to dismiss any interpretation of this phenomenon in terms of gravitational mass.”

“the effect is due to a coupling with gravity in the effective Lagrangian of the phonon, the same coupling must affect the field equation for gravity”.

I’m not sure about the word “must” here.

“The phonon carries negative mass. Moreover, this is not due to the usual equivalence of mass and energy in relativity: the effect survives in the nonrelativistic limit. And, finally, it is not a quantum effect, because it applies unaltered to classical waves.”

Hmm. Sorry, not convinced yet.

I admit to not having read the report, but from your description it sounds like sounds have properties related to pressure that they have decided to call mass.

From the link:

“Using effective field theory, they showed that a single-watt sound wave that moved for one second in water would carry with it a mass of approximately 0.1 milligrams. They further note that the mass was found to be a fraction of the total mass of a system that moved with the wave, as it was displaced from one site to another.

Importantly, the researchers did not actually measure mass being carried by a sound wave—they used math to prove it happens. For real-world measurement, they suggest experiments could be conducted with sound waves as they move through a Bose-Einstein condensate made of very cold atoms—such a setup should show enough mass being carried to allow for measurement. But they also note a better approach might be to measure the mass being carried by sound waves moving through the Earth as part of a quake. That much sound could carry billions of kilograms of mass, which might be visible on devices that measure gravitational fields. “

If 1W has an associated mass of 1 milligram, why is it such a problem to measure it in ordinary stuff?

The Rev Dodgson said:

From the link:

“Using effective field theory, they showed that a single-watt sound wave that moved for one second in water would carry with it a mass of approximately 0.1 milligrams. They further note that the mass was found to be a fraction of the total mass of a system that moved with the wave, as it was displaced from one site to another.

Importantly, the researchers did not actually measure mass being carried by a sound wave—they used math to prove it happens. For real-world measurement, they suggest experiments could be conducted with sound waves as they move through a Bose-Einstein condensate made of very cold atoms—such a setup should show enough mass being carried to allow for measurement. But they also note a better approach might be to measure the mass being carried by sound waves moving through the Earth as part of a quake. That much sound could carry billions of kilograms of mass, which might be visible on devices that measure gravitational fields. “

If 1W has an associated mass of 1 milligram, why is it such a problem to measure it in ordinary stuff?

Like solids, liquids or gases?

The Rev Dodgson said:

From the link:

“Using effective field theory, they showed that a single-watt sound wave that moved for one second in water would carry with it a mass of approximately 0.1 milligrams. They further note that the mass was found to be a fraction of the total mass of a system that moved with the wave, as it was displaced from one site to another.

Importantly, the researchers did not actually measure mass being carried by a sound wave—they used math to prove it happens. For real-world measurement, they suggest experiments could be conducted with sound waves as they move through a Bose-Einstein condensate made of very cold atoms—such a setup should show enough mass being carried to allow for measurement. But they also note a better approach might be to measure the mass being carried by sound waves moving through the Earth as part of a quake. That much sound could carry billions of kilograms of mass, which might be visible on devices that measure gravitational fields. “

If 1W has an associated mass of 1 milligram, why is it such a problem to measure it in ordinary stuff?

Or even 0.1 milligram.

roughbarked said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

From the link:

“Using effective field theory, they showed that a single-watt sound wave that moved for one second in water would carry with it a mass of approximately 0.1 milligrams. They further note that the mass was found to be a fraction of the total mass of a system that moved with the wave, as it was displaced from one site to another.

Importantly, the researchers did not actually measure mass being carried by a sound wave—they used math to prove it happens. For real-world measurement, they suggest experiments could be conducted with sound waves as they move through a Bose-Einstein condensate made of very cold atoms—such a setup should show enough mass being carried to allow for measurement. But they also note a better approach might be to measure the mass being carried by sound waves moving through the Earth as part of a quake. That much sound could carry billions of kilograms of mass, which might be visible on devices that measure gravitational fields. “

If 1W has an associated mass of 1 milligram, why is it such a problem to measure it in ordinary stuff?

Like solids, liquids or gases?

Yes, that sort of stuff.

Thinking about it, I guess the vibrations make precise mass measurement difficult.

The Rev Dodgson said:

From the link:

“Using effective field theory, they showed that a single-watt sound wave that moved for one second in water would carry with it a mass of approximately 0.1 milligrams. They further note that the mass was found to be a fraction of the total mass of a system that moved with the wave, as it was displaced from one site to another.

Importantly, the researchers did not actually measure mass being carried by a sound wave—they used math to prove it happens. For real-world measurement, they suggest experiments could be conducted with sound waves as they move through a Bose-Einstein condensate made of very cold atoms—such a setup should show enough mass being carried to allow for measurement. But they also note a better approach might be to measure the mass being carried by sound waves moving through the Earth as part of a quake. That much sound could carry billions of kilograms of mass, which might be visible on devices that measure gravitational fields. “

If 1W has an associated mass of 1 milligram, why is it such a problem to measure it in ordinary stuff?

Because even measuring the gravity of a 1 kg weight on the surface of the Earth is difficult. It takes an ultra-fine balance.

> it sounds like sounds have properties related to pressure that they have decided to call mass.

I get it now. Thanks for the hint.

What they are claiming is totally banal. And wrong. The clue is that they start the paper with “this is identical to refraction”. Refraction affects both sound and light. So let’s skip the sound aspect and talk about how refraction affects light.

Consider a mirage. A mirage bends light upwards, against the force of gravity. Therefore light is repelled by gravity. Therefore light has negative mass.

That is their argument in a nutshell. It’s complete rubbish.

mollwollfumble said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

From the link:

“Using effective field theory, they showed that a single-watt sound wave that moved for one second in water would carry with it a mass of approximately 0.1 milligrams. They further note that the mass was found to be a fraction of the total mass of a system that moved with the wave, as it was displaced from one site to another.

Importantly, the researchers did not actually measure mass being carried by a sound wave—they used math to prove it happens. For real-world measurement, they suggest experiments could be conducted with sound waves as they move through a Bose-Einstein condensate made of very cold atoms—such a setup should show enough mass being carried to allow for measurement. But they also note a better approach might be to measure the mass being carried by sound waves moving through the Earth as part of a quake. That much sound could carry billions of kilograms of mass, which might be visible on devices that measure gravitational fields. “

If 1W has an associated mass of 1 milligram, why is it such a problem to measure it in ordinary stuff?

Because even measuring the gravity of a 1 kg weight on the surface of the Earth is difficult. It takes an ultra-fine balance.

> it sounds like sounds have properties related to pressure that they have decided to call mass.

I get it now. Thanks for the hint.

What they are claiming is totally banal. And wrong. The clue is that they start the paper with “this is identical to refraction”. Refraction affects both sound and light. So let’s skip the sound aspect and talk about how refraction affects light.

Consider a mirage. A mirage bends light upwards, against the force of gravity. Therefore light is repelled by gravity. Therefore light has negative mass.

That is their argument in a nutshell. It’s complete rubbish.

Having considered this further, I’m not so sure.

The difference is that light is not a vibration in air, whereas sound passing through air is a vibration in air. If a sound wave in some medium affects the path some other sound wave nearby (and vice versa), then it seems reasonable to me to refer to that effect as analogous to “gravity” and the sound waves therefore having “mass”.

Not quite on-topic, but still of interest I reckon.

Can You Recover Sound From Images?