If we come across a spacefaring alien race. Would they cook their food?

I see multiple levels of possibility here.

• Since humans are the only species on Earth who cook their food, it seems certain that aliens we encounter would not cook their food.

But …

• Any intelligent alien species must be familiar with the chemical changes brought about by heat (even if they live in a non-oxygen atmosphere) and heat increases the digestibility of nearly every food, so it seems certain that aliens we encounter would cook their food.

Unless …

• The power required for generating heat is a limited commodity, and this is more likely to be the case as an alien civilization progresses. As any spacefaring alien race would be much more advanced than we are, it seems certain that spacefaring aliens we encounter would seldom cook their food.

But …

• Waste heat is a necessary co-committant of any spacefaring power plant, so heat for cooking would be available in plentiful supply, so it seems almost certain that spacefaring aliens would cook their food.

Unless …

• That waste heat was needed for life support. In which case spacefaring aliens would not cook their food.

Or …

• If cooking had a long history on the home planet, then perhaps food species have developed a chemical defence whereby cooking generates poisons. In which case spacefaring aliens would not cook their food.

Unless …

• Being a high tech society allowed then the ability to modify the body chemistry of food species so that cooking would not generate poisons. In which case spacefaring aliens would be certain to cook their food.

Unless …

• The aliens had lived for so long without cooking their food that cooking did not come naturally to them. In which case spacefaring aliens would not cook their food.

So, the initial question remaIns. If we come across a spacefaring alien race, would they cook their food?

most likely, cooking breaks down the food into digestible products

more evolved species will certainly cook their food

carrots are most useful when cooked for example without the processing the body doesn’t get as much from it. who eats raw potato?

i’d expect any alien life to operate on the same level as us, fresh food is moreover preferred.

the size of their spaceships would house food production facilitate fresh food. there would be no packed food sachets such as ours

I think it depends on whether they have invented tomato sauce.

wookiemeister said:

i’d expect any alien life to operate on the same level as us, fresh food is moreover preferred.

the size of their spaceships would house food production facilitate fresh food. there would be no packed food sachets such as ours

Agree. Pre-packaged food gets excessive in weight for any journey longer than a year or two.

Though rather than “fresh”, recycled may be the best term for it.

Divine Angel said:

I think it depends on whether they have invented tomato sauce.

That’s a good point. Tomato sauce makes bad food taste better.

Without some sort of flavour improver, the spacefaring astronauts may refuse to go on the journey.

What if the aliens descended from octopi and were perfectly happy with uncooked fish? Hmm few problems with that development wise.

Ok. How about aliens descended from bovine like animals that were happy with grass and hay but learnt to manipulate fire to burn down forests and create fresh grazing but no history of eating or preference for cooked and with several stomachs not much benefit.

AwesomeO said:

What if the aliens descended from octopi and were perfectly happy with uncooked fish? Hmm few problems with that development wise.

Yes. Well spotted. That’s what prompted this thread in the first place. I was reading a SciFi story about a spacecraft peopled by a weird-looking amphibian, fish, and an octopus-like flatworm, that had all evolved on a planet with no continents. In the story, they would only eat fresh raw food, and that made me wonder how realistic that was.

It has been speculated, seriously, that creatures descended from octopi will eventally replace humans as the dominant creatures on Earth. See “the tentacled forest” from the series “the future is wild”.

AwesomeO said:

Ok. How about aliens descended from bovine like animals that were happy with grass and hay but learnt to manipulate fire to burn down forests and create fresh grazing but no history of eating or preference for cooked and with several stomachs not much benefit.

Even better.

mollwollfumble said:

AwesomeO said:

What if the aliens descended from octopi and were perfectly happy with uncooked fish? Hmm few problems with that development wise.

Yes. Well spotted. That’s what prompted this thread in the first place. I was reading a SciFi story about a spacecraft peopled by a weird-looking amphibian, fish, and an octopus-like flatworm, that had all evolved on a planet with no continents. In the story, they would only eat fresh raw food, and that made me wonder how realistic that was.

It has been speculated, seriously, that creatures descended from octopi will eventally replace humans as the dominant creatures on Earth. See “the tentacled forest” from the series “the future is wild”.

AwesomeO said:

Ok. How about aliens descended from bovine like animals that were happy with grass and hay but learnt to manipulate fire to burn down forests and create fresh grazing but no history of eating or preference for cooked and with several stomachs not much benefit.

Even better.

going by Earth biology a plant based diet lacks the energy input and so those animals need to feed and digest for longer periods reducing they time to pursue avenues that might lead them to technology. Now, some may point out that we have vegetarian humans that seem to do OK, energywise, but, they didn’t evolve as vegetarians.

ChrispenEvan said:

mollwollfumble said:

AwesomeO said:

What if the aliens descended from octopi and were perfectly happy with uncooked fish? Hmm few problems with that development wise.

Yes. Well spotted. That’s what prompted this thread in the first place. I was reading a SciFi story about a spacecraft peopled by a weird-looking amphibian, fish, and an octopus-like flatworm, that had all evolved on a planet with no continents. In the story, they would only eat fresh raw food, and that made me wonder how realistic that was.

It has been speculated, seriously, that creatures descended from octopi will eventally replace humans as the dominant creatures on Earth. See “the tentacled forest” from the series “the future is wild”.

AwesomeO said:

Ok. How about aliens descended from bovine like animals that were happy with grass and hay but learnt to manipulate fire to burn down forests and create fresh grazing but no history of eating or preference for cooked and with several stomachs not much benefit.

Even better.

going by Earth biology a plant based diet lacks the energy input and so those animals need to feed and digest for longer periods reducing they time to pursue avenues that might lead them to technology. Now, some may point out that we have vegetarian humans that seem to do OK, energywise, but, they didn’t evolve as vegetarians.

Humans don’t need to eat as much meat products as we do. That is all. We evolved yes and supplementing our diet with animal products was a part of that.

ChrispenEvan said:

mollwollfumble said:

AwesomeO said:

What if the aliens descended from octopi and were perfectly happy with uncooked fish? Hmm few problems with that development wise.

Yes. Well spotted. That’s what prompted this thread in the first place. I was reading a SciFi story about a spacecraft peopled by a weird-looking amphibian, fish, and an octopus-like flatworm, that had all evolved on a planet with no continents. In the story, they would only eat fresh raw food, and that made me wonder how realistic that was.

It has been speculated, seriously, that creatures descended from octopi will eventally replace humans as the dominant creatures on Earth. See “the tentacled forest” from the series “the future is wild”.

AwesomeO said:

Ok. How about aliens descended from bovine like animals that were happy with grass and hay but learnt to manipulate fire to burn down forests and create fresh grazing but no history of eating or preference for cooked and with several stomachs not much benefit.

Even better.

going by Earth biology a plant based diet lacks the energy input and so those animals need to feed and digest for longer periods reducing they time to pursue avenues that might lead them to technology. Now, some may point out that we have vegetarian humans that seem to do OK, energywise, but, they didn’t evolve as vegetarians.

I can think of many ways around that even with a plant biology that lacks energy, how about a bovine society where the adults eat all day whilst the young adults eat grass but continue to drink milk and both adults and young spend time chewing the cud in contemplation and conversation. Not too many tweaks to get to that outcome.

Even a bird based species (to borrow from earth) might be happy with a diet of maggots and insects which would also be good for space travel wise.

ChrispenEvan said:

AwesomeO said:

What if the aliens descended from octopi and were perfectly happy with uncooked fish? Hmm few problems with that development wise.

going by Earth biology a plant based diet lacks the energy input and so those animals need to feed and digest for longer periods reducing they time to pursue avenues that might lead them to technology. Now, some may point out that we have vegetarian humans that seem to do OK, energywise, but, they didn’t evolve as vegetarians.

The issue is not meat vs vegetable
…the issue is raw vs cooked

Vegetarians often cook their vegetables.

Ogmog said:

ChrispenEvan said:

AwesomeO said:

What if the aliens descended from octopi and were perfectly happy with uncooked fish? Hmm few problems with that development wise.

going by Earth biology a plant based diet lacks the energy input and so those animals need to feed and digest for longer periods reducing they time to pursue avenues that might lead them to technology. Now, some may point out that we have vegetarian humans that seem to do OK, energywise, but, they didn’t evolve as vegetarians.

The issue is not meat vs vegetable
…the issue is raw vs cooked

Vegetarians often cook their vegetables.

that was alluded to in my post with the technology bit.

I’m going to say that it’s unlikely that they would have developed space technology unless they cooked their food.

The Rev Dodgson said:

I’m going to say that it’s unlikely that they would have developed space technology unless they cooked their food.

Many different types of nasty pathogens are killed by cooking food. Perhaps this is why cooking evolved.

Michael V said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

I’m going to say that it’s unlikely that they would have developed space technology unless they cooked their food.

Many different types of nasty pathogens are killed by cooking food. Perhaps this is why cooking evolved.

Quite likely.

My point was more that the need to deal with controlled fire leads to other more complex technologies.

AwesomeO said:

What if the aliens descended from octopi and were perfectly happy with uncooked fish? Hmm few problems with that development wise.

Ok. How about aliens descended from bovine like animals that were happy with grass and hay but learnt to manipulate fire to burn down forests and create fresh grazing but no history of eating or preference for cooked and with several stomachs not much benefit.

The bovines with which we’re familiar need to spend most of their time eating, to get enough energy from their poor quality food. They’re never going to develop any technology because such an animal can’t afford to develop larger brains than are strictly necessary for their current lifestyle.

>where the adults eat all day whilst the young adults eat grass but continue to drink milk and both adults and young spend time chewing the cud in contemplation and conversation. Not too many tweaks to get to that outcome.

If you’re envisaging them being more intelligent than current cattle and sheep, one essential “tweak” required is: larger brain. And large brains are very demanding of energy, just not obtainable for grazing animals.

Bubblecar said:

>where the adults eat all day whilst the young adults eat grass but continue to drink milk and both adults and young spend time chewing the cud in contemplation and conversation. Not too many tweaks to get to that outcome.

If you’re envisaging them being more intelligent than current cattle and sheep, one essential “tweak” required is: larger brain. And large brains are very demanding of energy, just not obtainable for grazing animals.

Yeah, as I was saying to one of my elephant mates the other day, sorry, but with a diet like yours you are never going to develop a big brain.

The Rev Dodgson said:

Bubblecar said:

>where the adults eat all day whilst the young adults eat grass but continue to drink milk and both adults and young spend time chewing the cud in contemplation and conversation. Not too many tweaks to get to that outcome.

If you’re envisaging them being more intelligent than current cattle and sheep, one essential “tweak” required is: larger brain. And large brains are very demanding of energy, just not obtainable for grazing animals.

Yeah, as I was saying to one of my elephant mates the other day, sorry, but with a diet like yours you are never going to develop a big brain.

wrong bit got big.

Bubblecar said:

>where the adults eat all day whilst the young adults eat grass but continue to drink milk and both adults and young spend time chewing the cud in contemplation and conversation. Not too many tweaks to get to that outcome.

If you’re envisaging them being more intelligent than current cattle and sheep, one essential “tweak” required is: larger brain. And large brains are very demanding of energy, just not obtainable for grazing animals.

What I am envisaging is an alternative evolution on another planet which combines use of fire without a requirement to cook food. On an alien world there are any number of tweaks available, that was a tiny one closely based on a biology we know, fire makes pasture, cows chew the cud and young cows drink milk and cows can make a lot of milk.

You can also object till the cows come home, but if you object to every aspect you arrive at the conceit that every intelligent alien is a primate like one and evolved in the same way.

AwesomeO said:

Bubblecar said:

>where the adults eat all day whilst the young adults eat grass but continue to drink milk and both adults and young spend time chewing the cud in contemplation and conversation. Not too many tweaks to get to that outcome.

If you’re envisaging them being more intelligent than current cattle and sheep, one essential “tweak” required is: larger brain. And large brains are very demanding of energy, just not obtainable for grazing animals.

What I am envisaging is an alternative evolution on another planet which combines use of fire without a requirement to cook food. On an alien world there are any number of tweaks available, that was a tiny one closely based on a biology we know, fire makes pasture, cows chew the cud and young cows drink milk and cows can make a lot of milk.

You can also object till the cows come home, but if you object to every aspect you arrive at the conceit that every intelligent alien is a primate like one and evolved in the same way.

but discussion involves objections.

The Rev Dodgson said:

Bubblecar said:

>where the adults eat all day whilst the young adults eat grass but continue to drink milk and both adults and young spend time chewing the cud in contemplation and conversation. Not too many tweaks to get to that outcome.

If you’re envisaging them being more intelligent than current cattle and sheep, one essential “tweak” required is: larger brain. And large brains are very demanding of energy, just not obtainable for grazing animals.

Yeah, as I was saying to one of my elephant mates the other day, sorry, but with a diet like yours you are never going to develop a big brain.

Elephants have big brains but look at the size of the rest of them :)

They eat up to 150kg of mixed quality food every day, which again means they need to spend a lot of time at it, but they’re not as restricted as pure grass feeders.

And as an aside, not sure a larger brain is required, just a more efficient one. Ravens are supposedly inteligent and they have tiny brains, insects seem to have very efficient brains that can do a lot with what they have, let alone forms of collaborative or hive intelligence.

Combine an efficient digestive system, a different form of glucose or energy carrier with an efficient processing unit and that opens up more possibilities. You could have a very lean sort of world where evolution has put a premium on efficient use of scarce resources which might also tend to drive innovation in an intelligent animal.

The Rev Dodgson said:

Michael V said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

I’m going to say that it’s unlikely that they would have developed space technology unless they cooked their food.

Many different types of nasty pathogens are killed by cooking food. Perhaps this is why cooking evolved.

Quite likely.

My point was more that the need to deal with controlled fire leads to other more complex technologies.

Ah. I hadn’t thought it through that much. Thanks for expanding.

AwesomeO said:

And as an aside, not sure a larger brain is required, just a more efficient one. Ravens are supposedly inteligent and they have tiny brains, insects seem to have very efficient brains that can do a lot with what they have, let alone forms of collaborative or hive intelligence.

Combine an efficient digestive system, a different form of glucose or energy carrier with an efficient processing unit and that opens up more possibilities. You could have a very lean sort of world where evolution has put a premium on efficient use of scarce resources which might also tend to drive innovation in an intelligent animal.

also plants on an alien world might have more energy content than Earth based ones.

ChrispenEvan said:

AwesomeO said:

And as an aside, not sure a larger brain is required, just a more efficient one. Ravens are supposedly inteligent and they have tiny brains, insects seem to have very efficient brains that can do a lot with what they have, let alone forms of collaborative or hive intelligence.

Combine an efficient digestive system, a different form of glucose or energy carrier with an efficient processing unit and that opens up more possibilities. You could have a very lean sort of world where evolution has put a premium on efficient use of scarce resources which might also tend to drive innovation in an intelligent animal.

also plants on an alien world might have more energy content than Earth based ones.

they’re made out of meat!

AwesomeO said:

Bubblecar said:

>where the adults eat all day whilst the young adults eat grass but continue to drink milk and both adults and young spend time chewing the cud in contemplation and conversation. Not too many tweaks to get to that outcome.

If you’re envisaging them being more intelligent than current cattle and sheep, one essential “tweak” required is: larger brain. And large brains are very demanding of energy, just not obtainable for grazing animals.

What I am envisaging is an alternative evolution on another planet which combines use of fire without a requirement to cook food. On an alien world there are any number of tweaks available, that was a tiny one closely based on a biology we know, fire makes pasture, cows chew the cud and young cows drink milk and cows can make a lot of milk.

You can also object till the cows come home, but if you object to every aspect you arrive at the conceit that every intelligent alien is a primate like one and evolved in the same way.

It’s still the case that larger brains require lots of energy, so we find across life on Earth that the brainiest animals tend to be adapted for diets of highly nutritious foods, not grass.

It’s a positive feedback loop because bigger brains mean the animal is more resourceful at obtaining better quality food. But bovines have entire bodies adapted for low quality food and there’s not much room to steer out of that without a whole package of unlikely mutations occurring at once – i.e., they’ve already evolved from a more generalised form to much more specialised form that presents fewer options for future evolution.

…and anyway, as everyone knows we only use 10% of our brain anyway…

Gotta go.

AwesomeO said:

…and anyway, as everyone knows we only use 10% of our brain anyway…

Gotta go.

False.

I for one regularly use 11%.

AwesomeO said:

…and anyway, as everyone knows we only use 10% of our brain anyway…

Gotta go.

as long as it is the good 10%.

ChrispenEvan said:

AwesomeO said:

Bubblecar said:

>where the adults eat all day whilst the young adults eat grass but continue to drink milk and both adults and young spend time chewing the cud in contemplation and conversation. Not too many tweaks to get to that outcome.

If you’re envisaging them being more intelligent than current cattle and sheep, one essential “tweak” required is: larger brain. And large brains are very demanding of energy, just not obtainable for grazing animals.

What I am envisaging is an alternative evolution on another planet which combines use of fire without a requirement to cook food. On an alien world there are any number of tweaks available, that was a tiny one closely based on a biology we know, fire makes pasture, cows chew the cud and young cows drink milk and cows can make a lot of milk.

You can also object till the cows come home, but if you object to every aspect you arrive at the conceit that every intelligent alien is a primate like one and evolved in the same way.

but discussion involves objections.

This be very true.

> If you’re envisaging them being more intelligent than current cattle and sheep, one essential “tweak” required is: larger brain. And large brains are very demanding of energy, just not obtainable for grazing animals.

There is some correlation between brain size and intelligence, but it’s far from being a one to one relationship.

Brain size is more indicative of sensory processing – sight and smell – rather than intelligence.

There are some people with “proportionate dwarfism” who have tiny brains but are just as intelligent as the rest of us. From wikipedia “In cases of proportionate dwarfism, both the limbs and torso are unusually small. Normal intelligence and lifespan are usual” but “It is rare for individuals affected by primordial dwarfism to live past the age of 30”.

Also, our brains are on average no larger than those of Neanderthals.

mollwollfumble is of the opinion that mosquitos are more intelligent than humans.

ChrispenEvan said:

AwesomeO said:

And as an aside, not sure a larger brain is required, just a more efficient one. Ravens are supposedly inteligent and they have tiny brains, insects seem to have very efficient brains that can do a lot with what they have, let alone forms of collaborative or hive intelligence.

Combine an efficient digestive system, a different form of glucose or energy carrier with an efficient processing unit and that opens up more possibilities. You could have a very lean sort of world where evolution has put a premium on efficient use of scarce resources which might also tend to drive innovation in an intelligent animal.

also plants on an alien world might have more energy content than Earth based ones.

Good input from AwesomeO and CrispenEven.

High energy content involves fats, not specifically from plants or from animals. They could even be fats from mineral sources. This may apply to all carbon-based aliens, not just those who are carbohydrate-protein-nucleic-acid-water-based.

Are fats strongly affected by cooking? Not nearly as much as carbohydrates and proteins. It takes the fats in a deep fryer a considerable time to degrade.

>There are some people with “proportionate dwarfism” who have tiny brains but are just as intelligent as the rest of us. From wikipedia “In cases of proportionate dwarfism, both the limbs and torso are unusually small. Normal intelligence and lifespan are usual” but “It is rare for individuals affected by primordial dwarfism to live past the age of 30”.

The point is: brain size as a proportion of body size and energy budget.

Bovines can’t devote any more energy to their brains than they already do. Which is fortunate because eating grass all day long doesn’t require much intelligence.

We don’t even know what kind of food they eat let alone whether it improves with cooking.

dv said:

We don’t even know what kind of food they eat let alone whether it improves with cooking.

We don’t even know if they eat food at all, or exist.

mollwollfumble said:

Also, our brains are on average no larger than those of Neanderthals.

I thought they were smaller.

It’s possible that very advanced beings enjoy a vast range of food, but all of it imaginary. They may be powered by electricity, but still be equipped with electronic equivalents of taste and smell receptors which interact with virtual foods in their imaginations.

They could create all kinds of new culinary experiences and “eat” all they like simply as an aesthetic pleasure, without any adverse effects.

The Rev Dodgson said:

mollwollfumble said:

Also, our brains are on average no larger than those of Neanderthals.

I thought they were smaller.

Neanderthals are known for their large cranial capacity, which at 1,600 cm3 (98 cu in) is larger on average than that of modern humans.

wiki

dv said:

We don’t even know what kind of food they eat let alone whether it improves with cooking.

Or even if they eat.

The Rev Dodgson said:

dv said:

We don’t even know what kind of food they eat let alone whether it improves with cooking.

Or even if they eat.

if that be true we wont have to worry about them invading us and using us as food.

The Rev Dodgson said:

mollwollfumble said:

Also, our brains are on average no larger than those of Neanderthals.

I thought they were smaller.

On average, yes. Neanderthals, like us, devoted far more of their energy budget to their brains (and were amply rewarded by performance of same) than other animals.

ChrispenEvan said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

mollwollfumble said:

Also, our brains are on average no larger than those of Neanderthals.

I thought they were smaller.

Neanderthals are known for their large cranial capacity, which at 1,600 cm3 (98 cu in) is larger on average than that of modern humans.

wiki

Yeah.

“They” being “our brains”.

The Rev Dodgson said:

ChrispenEvan said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

I thought they were smaller.

Neanderthals are known for their large cranial capacity, which at 1,600 cm3 (98 cu in) is larger on average than that of modern humans.

wiki

Yeah.

“They” being “our brains”.

yep, i read it as such.

ChrispenEvan said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

dv said:

We don’t even know what kind of food they eat let alone whether it improves with cooking.

Or even if they eat.

if that be true we wont have to worry about them invading us and using us as food.

True.

We still might be processed as a fuel for their energy supply systems though.

If these aliens have developed spacefaring technology I can hardly see energy shortages being such an issue they would need to withhold cooking food to save energy.

ChrispenEvan said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

ChrispenEvan said:

Neanderthals are known for their large cranial capacity, which at 1,600 cm3 (98 cu in) is larger on average than that of modern humans.

wiki

Yeah.

“They” being “our brains”.

yep, i read it as such.

I shall stop disambiguating then :)

It would be interesting to know the nutrition available from raw versus cooked meat. Cooking is basically about ease of eating if you disregard the scrumptious smell. OTOH raw blood is very nutritious.

ChrispenEvan said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

dv said:

We don’t even know what kind of food they eat let alone whether it improves with cooking.

Or even if they eat.

if that be true we wont have to worry about them invading us and using us as food.

What’s their stance on anal probing?

Witty Rejoinder said:

ChrispenEvan said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Or even if they eat.

if that be true we wont have to worry about them invading us and using us as food.

What’s their stance on anal probing?

We don’t even know it they have legs to stand on.

Witty Rejoinder said:

ChrispenEvan said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Or even if they eat.

if that be true we wont have to worry about them invading us and using us as food.

What’s their stance on anal probing?

usually to the rear.

They might even be vampires living on the blood of subordinate animals, like we live on the bodies of other animals. Drinking blood requires no cooking, is quick to drink, so plenty of time to do other things, plus blood is highly nutritious.

PermeateFree said:

They might even be vampires living on the blood of subordinate animals, like we live on the bodies of other animals. Drinking blood requires no cooking, is quick to drink, so plenty of time to do other things, plus blood is highly nutritious.

dam clever, them mossies

AwesomeO said:

Bubblecar said:

>where the adults eat all day whilst the young adults eat grass but continue to drink milk and both adults and young spend time chewing the cud in contemplation and conversation. Not too many tweaks to get to that outcome.

If you’re envisaging them being more intelligent than current cattle and sheep, one essential “tweak” required is: larger brain. And large brains are very demanding of energy, just not obtainable for grazing animals.

What I am envisaging is an alternative evolution on another planet which combines use of fire without a requirement to cook food. On an alien world there are any number of tweaks available, that was a tiny one closely based on a biology we know, fire makes pasture, cows chew the cud and young cows drink milk and cows can make a lot of milk.

You can also object till the cows come home, but if you object to every aspect you arrive at the conceit that every intelligent alien is a primate like one and evolved in the same way.

If you’ll pardon my prejudice
It’s hard to imagine evolving without thumbs
let alone forward facing eyes, and the ability to stand upright.
a cow couldn’t swing a hammer, let alone engineer one …so it’s rather
difficult to imagine Bossy BUILDING a doghouse, let alone an intergalactic vessel.