dv said:

The term midget is not considered appropriate any more and “little person” is preferred. Some (but not all) little people suffer from various forms of dwarfism and most such people seem to be okay with the term dwarf.

Question: is there some firm cutoff between a little person and someone who is just short?

> Wiki say 147 cm is the height for dwarfism. Which make Danny DeVito a short person or a tall dwarf.

I find it really annoying that the term “midget” has been discontinued. There is a huge difference between a person who is short because of pituitary malfunction (a proportional dwarf) and a person who has normal torso and head but short legs and arms. There is some overlap, the occasional person has both.

I have yet to sort out the difference between a proportional dwarf and a primordial dwarf. A primordial dwarf is small while still in the womb, and dies young. A proportional dwarf has a normal lifespan. But they look the same. (Don’t trust wikipedia on this topic, I wrote it).

Height is not a reliable indicator – not at all. There are treatments for both main types of dwarfism that increase height.

Furthermore, pituitary malfunction is not an on-off sort of thing, but a “how much hormone is being produced” sort of thing. A tumour can cause pituitary malfunction, for example, and the type, growth rate and position of the tumour affect the amount of hormones produced.

As for short arms and legs, the classic dwarfism, is hypochondroplasia (?). “Hypochondroplasia is a developmental disorder caused by an autosomal dominant genetic defect in the fibroblast growth factor receptor 3 gene that results in a disproportionately short stature and a head that appears large in comparison with the underdeveloped portions of the body. It is classified as short-limbed dwarfism.” This has nothing to do with pituitary malfunction. It is autosomal dominant, so is carried down in families with a similar proportion in each generation. No, not hypochondroplasia, achondroplasia. “Achondroplasia is a type of autosomal dominant genetic disorder that is the most common cause of dwarfism.”

Um, what. I can’t tell the difference between “achondroplasia” and “hypochondroplasia”. Both are caused by a “defect in the fibroblast growth factor receptor 3 gene”. So are essentially identical. “In about 80% of cases this occurs as a new mutation during early development. In the other cases it is inherited from one’s parents in an autosomal dominant manner.”

Looking at the first three people on the chart above. Warwick Davis has the classic short-limbed Dwarfism. Nelson de la Rosa looks (I don’t know) to be a case of both short-limbed and proportional dwarfism. Verne Troyer has something a bit peculiar, I’d better look it up. Cartilage–hair hypoplasia, a form of short-limbed dwarfism but with other problems

moll – have a look here. Plenty of further reading.

https://medlineplus.gov/dwarfism.html

Also, the Mayo Clinic page:

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/dwarfism/symptoms-causes/syc-20371969

And:

https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/achondroplasia

I’m not sure if I’ve given you this search engine for medical stuff. It usually pulls up the non commercial information well.

https://www.hon.ch/med.html

Why is “little” preferable to “small” or “short”?

The Rev Dodgson said:

Why is “little” preferable to “small” or “short”?

little people are cool, like kids, I call kids little people.

I have little fondness for small or short people

transition said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Why is “little” preferable to “small” or “short”?

little people are cool, like kids, I call kids little people.

I have little fondness for small or short people

while, of lilliputian psychological correctness

anybody mentioned randy newman yet?

transition said:

transition said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Why is “little” preferable to “small” or “short”?

little people are cool, like kids, I call kids little people.

I have little fondness for small or short people

while, of lilliputian psychological correctness

Lilliputian books are banned in Russia.

…there are no small parts, only small actors.

At my train station I often see a lady of dwarfish stature and she is really small like the size of toddler and a man less often they are both of Middle Eastern appearance so could be brother and sister.

AwesomeO said:

…there are no small parts, only small actors.

I wonder if Tom Cruise is there to perhaps stir him up as 170cm is short but not overly so

My Krispy boss was short. Four foot something. Not a dwarf though. She was serving customers one day and someone said, “Oh my God, look at her! She’s like a garden gnome!”

Boss was fuming and it took everything I had not to laugh. And… how rude.

Divine Angel said:

My Krispy boss was short. Four foot something. Not a dwarf though. She was serving customers one day and someone said, “Oh my God, look at her! She’s like a garden gnome!”

Boss was fuming and it took everything I had not to laugh. And… how rude.

Why are people so unkind?

ChrispenEvan said:

anybody mentioned randy newman yet?

You know I have.

Divine Angel said:

My Krispy boss was short. Four foot something. Not a dwarf though. She was serving customers one day and someone said, “Oh my God, look at her! She’s like a garden gnome!”

Boss was fuming and it took everything I had not to laugh. And… how rude.

AwesomeO said:

…there are no small parts, only small actors.

No women, either. Is that sexism?

I can think of two short women in TV and film.

Stella Young was exceedingly intelligent. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stella_Young

Then there was the woman who won an Oscar for playing a man. Linda Hunt in “The Year of Living Dangerously”. Now in NCIS LA. “As a teenager, Hunt was diagnosed as having hypopituitary dwarfism. Hunt stands at 1.45 meters”.

Why don’t we see dwarf actresses in Hollywood?

I’ve asked for opinions on this elsewhere and the idea that Danny Devito is the cutoff is popular, but with varying opinions on whether DD himself is a little person. This gels well with the official 147 cm cut.

I suppose another question would be: what is the lowest possible height for someone in a Western nation to be without a specific genetic cause?

Nelson de la Rosa: microcephalic osteodysplastic primordial dwarfism type II
Verne Troyer: Cartilage–hair hypoplasia (McKusick type metaphyseal chondrodysplasia) (a form of dwarfism)
Warwick Davis: Spondyloepiphyseal dysplasia congenita (a form of dwarfism)
Jimmy Vee: ? Some form of dwarfism
Kenny Baker: ? Some form of dwarfism
Herve Villechaize: ? Some form of endocrine dwarfism
Danny Woodburn: ? Some form of dwarfism
Martin Klebba: Acromicric dysplasia (a form of dwarfism)
Emmanuel Lewis: No identified medical condition
Deep Roy: No identified medical condition
Peter Dinklage: achondroplasia (a form of dwarfism)
Gary Coleman: suffered from focal segmental glomerulosclerosis (which is not a disorder that affects stature) and his growth was stunted by the treatment
Danny Devito: multiple epiphyseal dysplasia (Fairbank’s disease)

Ronnie Corbett and all of those taller than him on this list do not have a specific condition affecting stature.

So everyone in my list shorter than 130 cm has some genetic disorder that affects stature. Two of the five between 130 and 147 cm have a genetic disorder that affects stature. None of those over 147 cm have a genetic disorder that affects stature.

dv said:

I’ve asked for opinions on this elsewhere and the idea that Danny Devito is the cutoff is popular, but with varying opinions on whether DD himself is a little person. This gels well with the official 147 cm cut.

I suppose another question would be: what is the lowest possible height for someone in a Western nation to be without a specific genetic cause?

Nelson de la Rosa: microcephalic osteodysplastic primordial dwarfism type II
Verne Troyer: Cartilage–hair hypoplasia (McKusick type metaphyseal chondrodysplasia) (a form of dwarfism)
Warwick Davis: Spondyloepiphyseal dysplasia congenita (a form of dwarfism)
Jimmy Vee: ? Some form of dwarfism
Kenny Baker: ? Some form of dwarfism
Herve Villechaize: ? Some form of endocrine dwarfism
Danny Woodburn: ? Some form of dwarfism
Martin Klebba: Acromicric dysplasia (a form of dwarfism)
Emmanuel Lewis: No identified medical condition
Deep Roy: No identified medical condition
Peter Dinklage: achondroplasia (a form of dwarfism)
Gary Coleman: suffered from focal segmental glomerulosclerosis (which is not a disorder that affects stature) and his growth was stunted by the treatment
Danny Devito: multiple epiphyseal dysplasia (Fairbank’s disease)

Ronnie Corbett and all of those taller than him on this list do not have a specific condition affecting stature.

So everyone in my list shorter than 130 cm has some genetic disorder that affects stature. Two of the five between 130 and 147 cm have a genetic disorder that affects stature. None of those over 147 cm have a genetic disorder that affects stature.

My paternal grandmother was 142 cm. She used to get excited when she got over 27kg. Seriously. I have one photo of her, and (physically) you couldn’t tell her apart from some other thin woman, because there is no obvious scale. She was just small. I fitted her shoes at age eight, and I was taller than her at nine.

“Then there was the woman who won an Oscar for playing a man.”

She’s lucky she won it when she did – she presumably wouldn’t get past the casting desk these days.

mollwollfumble said:

AwesomeO said:

…there are no small parts, only small actors.

No women, either. Is that sexism?

I can think of two short women in TV and film.

Stella Young was exceedingly intelligent. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stella_Young

Then there was the woman who won an Oscar for playing a man. Linda Hunt in “The Year of Living Dangerously”. Now in NCIS LA. “As a teenager, Hunt was diagnosed as having hypopituitary dwarfism. Hunt stands at 1.45 meters”.

Why don’t we see dwarf actresses in Hollywood?

There are generally speaking fewer roles for women who are not beautiful than there are for men. Typically even women who are being cast as the less attractive supporting cast members have to be quite attractive. Several forms of dwarfism affect the shape of the head and in generally change the proportions so that they don’t meet the western ideal of beauty. (There are some exceptions: Martin Klebba just looks like a regular dude scaled down). I think this might be part of the reason why there are fewer roles for female dwarfs.

Still, a bit of searching turns up a few female stars who were at or below the 147 cm mark.

Barbara Windsor of the Carry On movies, 147 cm.
Mary Pickford, early screen actress, 147 cm.
Kristin Chenoweth, actress from the West Wing etc, 147 cm
Linda Hunt as you mentioned at 145 cm

Okay that’s about it.

dv said:

I’ve asked for opinions on this elsewhere and the idea that Danny Devito is the cutoff is popular, but with varying opinions on whether DD himself is a little person. This gels well with the official 147 cm cut.

I suppose another question would be: what is the lowest possible height for someone in a Western nation to be without a specific genetic cause?

Nelson de la Rosa: microcephalic osteodysplastic primordial dwarfism type II
Verne Troyer: Cartilage–hair hypoplasia (McKusick type metaphyseal chondrodysplasia) (a form of dwarfism)
Warwick Davis: Spondyloepiphyseal dysplasia congenita (a form of dwarfism)
Jimmy Vee: ? Some form of dwarfism
Kenny Baker: ? Some form of dwarfism
Herve Villechaize: ? Some form of endocrine dwarfism
Danny Woodburn: ? Some form of dwarfism
Martin Klebba: Acromicric dysplasia (a form of dwarfism)
Emmanuel Lewis: No identified medical condition
Deep Roy: No identified medical condition
Peter Dinklage: achondroplasia (a form of dwarfism)
Gary Coleman: suffered from focal segmental glomerulosclerosis (which is not a disorder that affects stature) and his growth was stunted by the treatment
Danny Devito: multiple epiphyseal dysplasia (Fairbank’s disease)

Ronnie Corbett and all of those taller than him on this list do not have a specific condition affecting stature.

So everyone in my list shorter than 130 cm has some genetic disorder that affects stature. Two of the five between 130 and 147 cm have a genetic disorder that affects stature. None of those over 147 cm have a genetic disorder that affects stature.

Thanks. You put a lot of effort into that.

> Still, a bit of searching turns up a few female stars who were at or below the 147 cm mark.

> Barbara Windsor of the Carry On movies, 147 cm.
> Mary Pickford, early screen actress, 147 cm.
> Kristin Chenoweth, actress from the West Wing etc, 147 cm
> Linda Hunt as you mentioned at 145 cm

Edna. Possibly modelled on Linda Hunt. Perhaps with a bit of Velma from Scooby Doo thrown in.

Treatment for pituitary dwarfs is now common, so you won’t see many young people around with the symptoms.

“Human growth hormone (hGH or HGH) is a peptide hormone that stimulates growth, cell reproduction, and cell regeneration in humans. A recombinant form of hGH called somatreopleopin (INN) is used as a prescription drug to treat children’s growth disorders and adult growth hormone deficiency.” It may have been around since 1981.

achondroplasia. Effective treatments have been available only since 2016. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26443596 This article mentions trials of five treatment drugs on animals (mice), only one of which had progressed to human thials. “Two established drugs, statins and meclozine, improve growth of ACH mice. The strongest candidate therapy employs an analog of C-type natriuretic peptide (CNP), which antagonizes the mitogen-activated-protein (MAP) kinase pathway downstream of the FGFR3 receptor and may also act independently in the growth plate. Only the CNP analog has reached clinical trials. Preliminary results of Phase 2 studies show a substantial increase in growth rate of ACH children after six months of therapy with no serious adverse effects.”

—

On the other end of the height scale. The original Addams Family on TV had in the credits “Thing as itself”. I only learnt recently that Thing was played by Lurch.

mollwollfumble said:

AwesomeO said:

…there are no small parts, only small actors.

No women, either. Is that sexism?

Undoubtedly.

You forgot from your list:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liz_Carr

Sarah Monahan from Hey Dad is only 149cms. She had a near-drowning aged 2 which denied her brain of oxygen and stunted her growth.

The name tags were mixed at my hospital and they wheeled out a Sergi with my name. I had the Sergi’s name tag. I joked with an Italian friend recently that I could have been raised as a Sergi. His reply, “Nah, they would have picked you up early because you were always going to be taller than five feet”.

I had a think about it and it is true that Sergi’s from the town of Plati, did not get taller when they moved to Australia.

The Rev Dodgson said:

mollwollfumble said:

AwesomeO said:

…there are no small parts, only small actors.

No women, either. Is that sexism?

Undoubtedly.

You forgot from your list:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liz_Carr

“Carr has used a wheelchair since the age of seven owing to arthrogryposis multiplex congenita and frequently refers to her condition in her stand-up as “meus thronus kaputus”. She is frank about her life as a disabled person and the inherent comedy that brings.”

Just checking, Lisa Origliasso from the Veronicas is 155 cm. Not a dwarf.

https://nypost.com/2018/06/09/last-remaining-munchkin-actors-share-their-stories/

“On May 24, actor Jerry Maren passed away at age 98 in San Diego, Calif., and — as was widely reported — the world lost its last living “Wizard of Oz” munchkin” played by a dwarf actor. There were also ten “little girls cast as extras to round out the movie’s Lollipop Guild”, and Betty Ann Bruno, now aged 86, is a grown-up normal 157 cm.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munchkin#Actors_and_actresses

“The following is a list of actors who portrayed the Munchkins in the 1939 film. Most of the dwarfs hired were acquired for MGM by Leo Singer, the proprietor of Singer’s Midgets. 124 midgets had been signed. Only two actors used their actual voices. 33 of the actors with dwarfism who appeared in the film were still alive 50 years later”.

This would be a fascinating resource for survival statistics. One dwarf actor died at age 30 and two at ago 41, but most survived much longer.

So this epitaph from the Simpsons … S4E20 Tonight on Eye On Springfield, the Munchkins from The Wizard of Oz. Where are they now?

Divine Angel said:

Sarah Monahan from Hey Dad is only 149cms. She had a near-drowning aged 2 which denied her brain of oxygen and stunted her growth.

TATE tells me that the average height ratio (men/women) is about 1.08, so the dwarf cut-off should be 136 cm for women.

Maybe a little off centre but Bronwyn Bishop is a midget, you don’t get that perception from TV but in real life she is tiny.

Trump’s ratings.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/?ex_cid=rrpromo

Will be interesting to see what happens on this page in the next week or so.

sibeen said:

Trump’s ratings.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/?ex_cid=rrpromo

Will be interesting to see what happens on this page in the next week or so.

bugger

The Rev Dodgson said:

Divine Angel said:

Sarah Monahan from Hey Dad is only 149cms. She had a near-drowning aged 2 which denied her brain of oxygen and stunted her growth.

TATE tells me that the average height ratio (men/women) is about 1.08, so the dwarf cut-off should be 136 cm for women.

OK, so my paternal grandmother was just a very small woman, at 142 cm. Which is what she looked like. She was short and thin.

We called her “Little Grandma”. Unsurprisingly, our other grandmother was called “Big Grandma”. She was 177 cm.

furious said:

Divine Angel said:

Sarah Monahan from Hey Dad is only 149cms. She had a near-drowning aged 2 which denied her brain of oxygen and stunted her growth.

Kylie Minogue is 1.52m.

furious said:

LOL

:)

Michael V said:

furious said:

LOL

:)

Does this mean that the MG Midget must be renamed the MG Little Person?

Tamb said:

Michael V said:

furious said:

LOL

:)

Does this mean that the MG Midget must be renamed the MG Little Person?

No. Call it by its original name. It was a badge-engineered Austin-Healey Sprite.

Michael V said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

TATE tells me that the average height ratio (men/women) is about 1.08, so the dwarf cut-off should be 136 cm for women.

It doesn’t seem to work like that on the bottom end.

Michael V said:

furious said:

LOL

:)

From Roger Ramjet:

Roger: “How do you know that?”
Jacqueline Hyde “A little birdie told me. Come here Little Burtie”

“In anthropology, pygmy peoples are ethnic groups whose average height is unusually short. The term pygmyism is used to describe the phenotype of endemic short stature for populations in which adult men are on average less than 150 cm”

There seems to be a lot of speculation, including genetic and biochemical speculation, about what makes a pygmy a pygmy, but nobody really knows.

There are other pygmy peoples in the Wissel Lakes area, Malay, Andaman Islands.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/amg-acta-geneticae-medicae-et-gemellologiae-twin-research/article/african-pygmies/5146F1D58781E2F344B08613656695C9

“ Citation of early literature shows that the Pygmies formerly occupied a much wider area, including the Cameroons, Sierra Leone and probably Liberia in West Africa, where they first came to the attention of Europeans in the 16th Century. The Bambuti Pygmies are now recognized as having three branches, Efé, Basúa and Aká of similar dwarf stature, the differences between them being of minor character. The upper limit for Pygmy stature is generally regarded as 150 cm. Measurements show that the Pygmy skull is frequently little smaller than that of the Negro, their ranges apparently overlapping, although some Pygmy skulls are very small in dimensions. The cephalic index is higher than that of the Negro in accordance with the small stature, and frequently approaches closely to brachycephaly or overlaps it in the female. The armspan in the living Pygmy exceeds the stature, but the proximal segment of both limbs is relatively very short.”

“The pantropical disease Kwashiorkor, is seen in the Pygmies, the brick-red hair being a symptom. It apparently results from protein deficiency, and especially from a diet of bananas at the time of weaning. The Pygmy teeth and jaws are probably the most pathological to be found in any human race.”

https://sci-hub.tw/10.1016/s0140-6736(67)90492-8 The Lancet, 1967.

“An expedition visited the Mbaiki region of the Central African Republic where there is a large concentration of pygmies in the rain forest along the border of the Republic of the Congo.”

I note that these aren’t really pygmies, because the average male height of 151 cm is above the 150 cm cut-off. However, of the 22 in this study.
Height range among males, 142.2 to 159 cm.
Height range among females, 139.5 to 148 cm.

“Their heights seem to follow a gaussian (normal) distribution. They were all thin and muscular, with a mean weight of 45 0 kg. Unlike the ateliotics, (subjects with monotropic H.G.H. deficiency), their legs were longer than their trunks, with a mean upper/lower segment ratio of 0-98, which is in the adult anthropometric range for a white population. They have relatively long arms”.

mollwollfumble said:

Michael V said:

furious said:

LOL

:)

From Roger Ramjet:

Roger: “How do you know that?”
Jacqueline Hyde “A little birdie told me. Come here Little Burtie”

“In anthropology, pygmy peoples are ethnic groups whose average height is unusually short. The term pygmyism is used to describe the phenotype of endemic short stature for populations in which adult men are on average less than 150 cm”

There seems to be a lot of speculation, including genetic and biochemical speculation, about what makes a pygmy a pygmy, but nobody really knows.

There are other pygmy peoples in the Wissel Lakes area, Malay, Andaman Islands.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/amg-acta-geneticae-medicae-et-gemellologiae-twin-research/article/african-pygmies/5146F1D58781E2F344B08613656695C9

“ Citation of early literature shows that the Pygmies formerly occupied a much wider area, including the Cameroons, Sierra Leone and probably Liberia in West Africa, where they first came to the attention of Europeans in the 16th Century. The Bambuti Pygmies are now recognized as having three branches, Efé, Basúa and Aká of similar dwarf stature, the differences between them being of minor character. The upper limit for Pygmy stature is generally regarded as 150 cm. Measurements show that the Pygmy skull is frequently little smaller than that of the Negro, their ranges apparently overlapping, although some Pygmy skulls are very small in dimensions. The cephalic index is higher than that of the Negro in accordance with the small stature, and frequently approaches closely to brachycephaly or overlaps it in the female. The armspan in the living Pygmy exceeds the stature, but the proximal segment of both limbs is relatively very short.”

“The pantropical disease Kwashiorkor, is seen in the Pygmies, the brick-red hair being a symptom. It apparently results from protein deficiency, and especially from a diet of bananas at the time of weaning. The Pygmy teeth and jaws are probably the most pathological to be found in any human race.”

https://sci-hub.tw/10.1016/s0140-6736(67)90492-8 The Lancet, 1967.

“An expedition visited the Mbaiki region of the Central African Republic where there is a large concentration of pygmies in the rain forest along the border of the Republic of the Congo.”

I note that these aren’t really pygmies, because the average male height of 151 cm is above the 150 cm cut-off. However, of the 22 in this study.
Height range among males, 142.2 to 159 cm.
Height range among females, 139.5 to 148 cm.

“Their heights seem to follow a gaussian (normal) distribution. They were all thin and muscular, with a mean weight of 45 0 kg. Unlike the ateliotics, (subjects with monotropic H.G.H. deficiency), their legs were longer than their trunks, with a mean upper/lower segment ratio of 0-98, which is in the adult anthropometric range for a white population. They have relatively long arms”.

The Jirrbal rainforest people of the Atherton Tableland are pygmy like in stature. 110 to 120 cm tall.

AwesomeO said:

Maybe a little off centre but Bronwyn Bishop is a midget, you don’t get that perception from TV but in real life she is tiny.

So is Pauline Hanson.

Well apparently they don’t like the m-word.

roughbarked said:

AwesomeO said:

Maybe a little off centre but Bronwyn Bishop is a midget, you don’t get that perception from TV but in real life she is tiny.

So is Pauline Hanson.

Queen Victoria had a number of unusual physical and mental characteristics. She had haemophilia, and she was short. One website suggests 5 foot 2, not short enough to be a dwarf.

And mentally, “the Queen has heard that you have paid much attention to mental disease, and is afraid she is about to lose her mind ! – she sees visions and hears sounds, and is much troubled as to what will become of her when she is dead. She thinks of worms eating her – and is weeping & wretched.”

——

Down syndrome
154 cm for men, 142 cm for women

——

“Researchers have traditionally defined pygmies as populations with an average adult male height of no more than 155 centimeters, or about 5 feet, 1 inch. Hunter-gatherer groups classified as pygmies live in various regions, including Africa, Indonesia, the Philippines and the Andaman Islands, which lie southeast of Burma.”

“Stature, Mortality, and Life History among Indigenous Populations of the Andaman Islands, 1871-1986” J. T. Stock and A. B. Migliano

Tribe: Great Andamanese
Males 148.4 +- 4.6 cm, Females 137.2 +- 4.1 cm
Tribe: Onge
Males 148.3 +- 3.8 cm, Females 137.9 +- 4.1 cm
Tribe: Jarawa
Males 152.7 +- 4.7 cm, Females 146.9 +- 5.5 cm

The Baka in southeast Cameroon can’t be considered Pygmies any more, despite the article heading. This information is from the year 2013.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/03014460.2012.720711

Tribe: Baka
Males 165 +- 11 cm, Females 152 +- 8 cm

From the Philippines. Year 2002
https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/jpem.2002.15.3/jpem.2002.15.3.269/jpem.2002.15.3.269.xml

Tribe: Aeta
150.1 cm for men and 140.5 cm for women
Tribe: Mamanwa
156.2 cm for men and 147.1 cm for women

——

It seems to be quite difficult to get reliable measurements of the stature of pygmies in Africa. Height measurements tend to appear in papers from about 1888 to 1892, perhaps as late as 1912 or 1914, that don’t appear on the web.

mollwollfumble said:

roughbarked said:

AwesomeO said:

Maybe a little off centre but Bronwyn Bishop is a midget, you don’t get that perception from TV but in real life she is tiny.

So is Pauline Hanson.

Queen Victoria had a number of unusual physical and mental characteristics. She had haemophilia, and she was short. One website suggests 5 foot 2, not short enough to be a dwarf.

And mentally, “the Queen has heard that you have paid much attention to mental disease, and is afraid she is about to lose her mind ! – she sees visions and hears sounds, and is much troubled as to what will become of her when she is dead. She thinks of worms eating her – and is weeping & wretched.”

——

Down syndrome
154 cm for men, 142 cm for women

——

“Researchers have traditionally defined pygmies as populations with an average adult male height of no more than 155 centimeters, or about 5 feet, 1 inch. Hunter-gatherer groups classified as pygmies live in various regions, including Africa, Indonesia, the Philippines and the Andaman Islands, which lie southeast of Burma.”

“Stature, Mortality, and Life History among Indigenous Populations of the Andaman Islands, 1871-1986” J. T. Stock and A. B. Migliano

Tribe: Great Andamanese
Males 148.4 +- 4.6 cm, Females 137.2 +- 4.1 cm
Tribe: Onge
Males 148.3 +- 3.8 cm, Females 137.9 +- 4.1 cm
Tribe: Jarawa
Males 152.7 +- 4.7 cm, Females 146.9 +- 5.5 cm

The Baka in southeast Cameroon can’t be considered Pygmies any more, despite the article heading. This information is from the year 2013.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/03014460.2012.720711

Tribe: Baka
Males 165 +- 11 cm, Females 152 +- 8 cm

From the Philippines. Year 2002
https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/jpem.2002.15.3/jpem.2002.15.3.269/jpem.2002.15.3.269.xml

Tribe: Aeta
150.1 cm for men and 140.5 cm for women
Tribe: Mamanwa
156.2 cm for men and 147.1 cm for women

——

It seems to be quite difficult to get reliable measurements of the stature of pygmies in Africa. Height measurements tend to appear in papers from about 1888 to 1892, perhaps as late as 1912 or 1914, that don’t appear on the web.

Found the paper from 1892 about Pygmy tribes in Africa.
“Schlichter, H. (1892). The pygmy tribes of Africa. Scottish Geographical Magazine, 8(6), 289–301.”

“Lenz, who has measured many Obongo, states that the height of adult men is 4.3 to 4.7 feet, while that of the women is much less. The majority of the Obongo whom Du Chaillu measured (mostly women) were between 4 and 5 feet. Marche found the Akoa somewhat taller, men 4.9 to 5.0 feet, and the women 4.6 to 4.7 feet. In spite of their small stature they are well proportioned, strong and nimble” and hairy. (Note. That may not be a decimal point in each case but feet and inches).

“Batua tribes extend over the whole southern part of the Congo basin. They have an average height of 4.4 to 4.7 feet.”
“The Doko (of east Africa) embrace a variety of different tribes, some of which are only 5 feet high” … “ 4 to 4 1/2 feet in height”.
Near the Doko are “Maze Malea, who are only 4.9 feet high”.
“To the south of the countries of Kullu and Mekan Sukoro, tribes exist beyond the river Gojab whose stature is between 4 and 5 feet”.

It’s rather a shame that I have to go back to the year 1892 to find anything about the height of these African Pygmy tribes. What has happened to them since then?

i wonder if CRISPR can cure dwarfism

wookiemeister said:

i wonder if CRISPR can cure dwarfism

It’s kind of a politicised topic among the little community, apparently.

they should start correcting genetic errors as soon as possible, it costs the health system mega bucks treating people

maybe instead of vaccines you correct the DNA to be resistant to diseases

wookiemeister said:

they should start correcting genetic errors as soon as possible, it costs the health system mega bucks treating people

Yes. Make everyone small. Save on food, help the environment.

mollwollfumble said:

wookiemeister said:

they should start correcting genetic errors as soon as possible, it costs the health system mega bucks treating people

Yes. Make everyone small. Save on food, help the environment.

there are health issues with being small, there are health issues with being overly tall as well.

i reckon there must be some sweet spot where the heart is good for pumping to a certain height and no more

https://slate.com/technology/2013/07/height-and-longevity-the-research-is-clear-being-tall-is-hazardous-to-your-health.html

Pygmies were not well liked in Africa, most tribes would actively try and kill them if they came across them. Some witch doctors would trade with them for forest stuff to make charms and fetishes but otherwise being a Pygmy was dangerous.

wookiemeister said:

maybe instead of vaccines you correct the DNA to be resistant to diseases

We already have one Tau Neutrino…

AwesomeO said:

Pygmies were not well liked in Africa, most tribes would actively try and kill them if they came across them. Some witch doctors would trade with them for forest stuff to make charms and fetishes but otherwise being a Pygmy was dangerous.

i guess if you were a pygmie you’d always need to be armed, ideally with blow darts to discourage potential problems

wookiemeister said:

AwesomeO said:

Pygmies were not well liked in Africa, most tribes would actively try and kill them if they came across them. Some witch doctors would trade with them for forest stuff to make charms and fetishes but otherwise being a Pygmy was dangerous.

i guess if you were a pygmie you’d always need to be armed, ideally with blow darts to discourage potential problems

The other tribes being grazers or agriculturalists didn’t really come across them, pygmies were more deep forest original lifestyle.

AwesomeO said:

Pygmies were not well liked in Africa, most tribes would actively try and kill them if they came across them. Some witch doctors would trade with them for forest stuff to make charms and fetishes but otherwise being a Pygmy was dangerous.

any idea why?

party_pants said:

AwesomeO said:

Pygmies were not well liked in Africa, most tribes would actively try and kill them if they came across them. Some witch doctors would trade with them for forest stuff to make charms and fetishes but otherwise being a Pygmy was dangerous.

any idea why?

From what I read they considered them not quite human so were fair game but human enough to be scary and a bit evil.

party_pants said:

AwesomeO said:

Pygmies were not well liked in Africa, most tribes would actively try and kill them if they came across them. Some witch doctors would trade with them for forest stuff to make charms and fetishes but otherwise being a Pygmy was dangerous.

any idea why?

Probably just fear of the other, but also let’s face it if you are going to pick an enemy it might as well be a small one with lower technology.