Are we close to solving the puzzle of consciousness?
By David Robson 27 March 2019

Can a lobster feel pain in the same way as you or I?

We know that they have the same sensors – called nociceptors – that cause us to flinch or cry when we are hurt. And they certainly behave like they are sensing something unpleasant. When a chef places them in boiling water, for instance, they twitch their tails as if they are in agony.

But are they actually “aware” of the sensation? Or is that response merely a reflex?

More….

Tau.Neutrino said:

Are we close to solving the puzzle of consciousness?
By David Robson 27 March 2019

Can a lobster feel pain in the same way as you or I?

We know that they have the same sensors – called nociceptors – that cause us to flinch or cry when we are hurt. And they certainly behave like they are sensing something unpleasant. When a chef places them in boiling water, for instance, they twitch their tails as if they are in agony.

But are they actually “aware” of the sensation? Or is that response merely a reflex?

More….

That is just plain daft. Of course animals feel pain, they don’t like being eaten either. They might not sense pain to the same degree as the higher animals like mammals, but they have a nervous system that is stimulated by pain, or even the fear of pain or predation.

PermeateFree said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Are we close to solving the puzzle of consciousness?
By David Robson 27 March 2019

Can a lobster feel pain in the same way as you or I?

We know that they have the same sensors – called nociceptors – that cause us to flinch or cry when we are hurt. And they certainly behave like they are sensing something unpleasant. When a chef places them in boiling water, for instance, they twitch their tails as if they are in agony.

But are they actually “aware” of the sensation? Or is that response merely a reflex?

More….

That is just plain daft. Of course animals feel pain, they don’t like being eaten either. They might not sense pain to the same degree as the higher animals like mammals, but they have a nervous system that is stimulated by pain, or even the fear of pain or predation.

I would think consciousness over species is perhaps like an analogue spectrum

some might experience no pain

some might experience the pain and have varying degrees of re-action to it.

some life forms may experience pain, react / no react and or have no memory of it later

while other experience the pain react / no react and have various levels of memoires about it

etc

PermeateFree said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Are we close to solving the puzzle of consciousness?
By David Robson 27 March 2019

Can a lobster feel pain in the same way as you or I?

We know that they have the same sensors – called nociceptors – that cause us to flinch or cry when we are hurt. And they certainly behave like they are sensing something unpleasant. When a chef places them in boiling water, for instance, they twitch their tails as if they are in agony.

But are they actually “aware” of the sensation? Or is that response merely a reflex?

More….

That is just plain daft. Of course animals feel pain, they don’t like being eaten either. They might not sense pain to the same degree as the higher animals like mammals, but they have a nervous system that is stimulated by pain, or even the fear of pain or predation.

One thing people have that other animals don’t, is arrogance and heaps of it. We are just so full of ourselves. It has been proven time and time again when people actually interact with animals they will acquire far more information about that animal than sitting back thinking how smart we are and can animals come anywhere near our level. This attitude is how we can treat animals so badly and justify it, simply by saying they don’t feel it like we do; it is that type of thinking where we can think of people as being sub-human and therefore can treat them in any fashion we like.

Tau.Neutrino said:

PermeateFree said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Are we close to solving the puzzle of consciousness?
By David Robson 27 March 2019

Can a lobster feel pain in the same way as you or I?

We know that they have the same sensors – called nociceptors – that cause us to flinch or cry when we are hurt. And they certainly behave like they are sensing something unpleasant. When a chef places them in boiling water, for instance, they twitch their tails as if they are in agony.

But are they actually “aware” of the sensation? Or is that response merely a reflex?

More….

That is just plain daft. Of course animals feel pain, they don’t like being eaten either. They might not sense pain to the same degree as the higher animals like mammals, but they have a nervous system that is stimulated by pain, or even the fear of pain or predation.

I would think consciousness over species is perhaps like an analogue spectrum

some might experience no pain

some might experience the pain and have varying degrees of re-action to it.

some life forms may experience pain, react / no react and or have no memory of it later

while other experience the pain react / no react and have various levels of memoires about it

etc

Far too much is made of the idea of consciousness, all living things have it to varying degrees.

If some lifeforms have no self awareness could they still have memories?

PermeateFree said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

PermeateFree said:

That is just plain daft. Of course animals feel pain, they don’t like being eaten either. They might not sense pain to the same degree as the higher animals like mammals, but they have a nervous system that is stimulated by pain, or even the fear of pain or predation.

I would think consciousness over species is perhaps like an analogue spectrum

some might experience no pain

some might experience the pain and have varying degrees of re-action to it.

some life forms may experience pain, react / no react and or have no memory of it later

while other experience the pain react / no react and have various levels of memoires about it

etc

Far too much is made of the idea of consciousness, all living things have it to varying degrees.

>>>Far too much is made of the idea of consciousness

I don’t think so, We will need a better understanding of it for robotics and AI

>>>all living things have it to varying degrees.

Yes

To me conscious is the sum of perception and memory stored in the brain over ones lifetime and existing as self awareness of both self and others in an external environment.

I’ll try again.

To me, consciousness is the sum of perception and memory stored in the brain over ones lifetime existing as self awareness of both self and others in an external environment.

Tau.Neutrino said:

If some lifeforms have no self awareness could they still have memories?

Even very simple lifeforms have memory, they need it to move around their territory to find food, water and home, etc. They obviously don’t have memories like ours, simply because they don’t need it to that degree.

PermeateFree said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

If some lifeforms have no self awareness could they still have memories?

Even very simple lifeforms have memory, they need it to move around their territory to find food, water and home, etc. They obviously don’t have memories like ours, simply because they don’t need it to that degree.

Yes, different time spans of memories.

Tau.Neutrino said:

PermeateFree said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

I would think consciousness over species is perhaps like an analogue spectrum

some might experience no pain

some might experience the pain and have varying degrees of re-action to it.

some life forms may experience pain, react / no react and or have no memory of it later

while other experience the pain react / no react and have various levels of memoires about it

etc

Far too much is made of the idea of consciousness, all living things have it to varying degrees.

>>>Far too much is made of the idea of consciousness

I don’t think so, We will need a better understanding of it for robotics and AI

>>>all living things have it to varying degrees.

Yes

To me conscious is the sum of perception and memory stored in the brain over ones lifetime and existing as self awareness of both self and others in an external environment.

A robot is very different thing to that of a living animal.

Tau.Neutrino said:

PermeateFree said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

If some lifeforms have no self awareness could they still have memories?

Even very simple lifeforms have memory, they need it to move around their territory to find food, water and home, etc. They obviously don’t have memories like ours, simply because they don’t need it to that degree.

Yes, different time spans of memories.

a smaller set of memories based around food etc

makes more sense than no memories at all

Just a simple example of memory and intelligence.

https://i.imgur.com/emcqjHv.mp4

PermeateFree said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

PermeateFree said:

Far too much is made of the idea of consciousness, all living things have it to varying degrees.

>>>Far too much is made of the idea of consciousness

I don’t think so, We will need a better understanding of it for robotics and AI

>>>all living things have it to varying degrees.

Yes

To me conscious is the sum of perception and memory stored in the brain over ones lifetime and existing as self awareness of both self and others in an external environment.

A robot is very different thing to that of a living animal.

Yes, electronics running on batteries, while animals need food to obtain their energy.

Robots in the future could evolve from a mechanical electronic form towards a hybrid electronic biological life form, not cyborg, in the sense of incorporating a human. but a new level of biological electronic life form.

Opps I have poor awareness of what thread I’m in.

I agree with everything PermeateFree says here.

PermeateFree said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

PermeateFree said:

That is just plain daft. Of course animals feel pain, they don’t like being eaten either. They might not sense pain to the same degree as the higher animals like mammals, but they have a nervous system that is stimulated by pain, or even the fear of pain or predation.

I would think consciousness over species is perhaps like an analogue spectrum

some might experience no pain

some might experience the pain and have varying degrees of re-action to it.

some life forms may experience pain, react / no react and or have no memory of it later

while other experience the pain react / no react and have various levels of memoires about it

etc

Far too much is made of the idea of consciousness, all living things have it to varying degrees.

Like the penguin who comes back and has a chat and a cuddle every year at the same time, because that bloke rescued it from death years before?

Tau.Neutrino said:

Are we close to solving the puzzle of consciousness?
By David Robson 27 March 2019

Can a lobster feel pain in the same way as you or I?

We know that they have the same sensors – called nociceptors – that cause us to flinch or cry when we are hurt. And they certainly behave like they are sensing something unpleasant. When a chef places them in boiling water, for instance, they twitch their tails as if they are in agony.

But are they actually “aware” of the sensation? Or is that response merely a reflex?

More….

Interesting article.

I don’t think the headline really does it justice. It’s really not about “solving the puzzle of consciousness”, it’s about quantifying and measuring brain activities that relate to the phenomenon we call consciousness.

The Rev Dodgson said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Are we close to solving the puzzle of consciousness?
By David Robson 27 March 2019

Can a lobster feel pain in the same way as you or I?

We know that they have the same sensors – called nociceptors – that cause us to flinch or cry when we are hurt. And they certainly behave like they are sensing something unpleasant. When a chef places them in boiling water, for instance, they twitch their tails as if they are in agony.

But are they actually “aware” of the sensation? Or is that response merely a reflex?

More….

Interesting article.

I don’t think the headline really does it justice. It’s really not about “solving the puzzle of consciousness”, it’s about quantifying and measuring brain activities that relate to the phenomenon we call consciousness.

this.

As for the question in the headline, I can’t see that we have made much (if any) progress since:

What is it like to be a bat

The Rev Dodgson said:

As for the question in the headline, I can’t see that we have made much (if any) progress since:

What is it like to be a bat

The recent wave of reductionist euphoria has produced several analyses of mental phenomena and mental concepts designed to explain the possibility of some variety of materialism, psychophysical identification, or reduction.

stops reading

The Rev Dodgson said:

As for the question in the headline, I can’t see that we have made much (if any) progress since:

What is it like to be a bat

that was our topic a couple of months ago at our philosophical discussion meetings. You can’t know. hell, you can’t even know what it is like to be another human.

ChrispenEvan said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

As for the question in the headline, I can’t see that we have made much (if any) progress since:

What is it like to be a bat

that was our topic a couple of months ago at our philosophical discussion meetings. You can’t know. hell, you can’t even know what it is like to be another human.

Truest things you have said. This goes on that list. ;)

ChrispenEvan said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

As for the question in the headline, I can’t see that we have made much (if any) progress since:

What is it like to be a bat

that was our topic a couple of months ago at our philosophical discussion meetings. You can’t know. hell, you can’t even know what it is like to be another human.

True, but assuming that other people’s feelings feel much like your own does seem a reasonable default assumption.

Assuming other people actually exist that is

>…….solving the puzzle of consciousness….

there is no puzzle.

transition said:

>…….solving the puzzle of consciousness….

there is no puzzle.

There must be a puzzle of some sort.

Even if the puzzle is that so many people think there is a puzzle when there is no puzzle.

The Rev Dodgson said:

transition said:

>…….solving the puzzle of consciousness….

there is no puzzle.

There must be a puzzle of some sort.

Even if the puzzle is that so many people think there is a puzzle when there is no puzzle.

using the word puzzle three times in a short sentence doesn’t make it interesting, a minor torment to someone making a point otherwise though, perhaps.

consciousness really isn’t that interesting, rather a substantially mundane business.

you know you ride the excitement up, but the important stuff, the tricks, probably happen on the way down.

it could look like a puzzle if you want to stay excited.

transition said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

transition said:

>…….solving the puzzle of consciousness….

there is no puzzle.

There must be a puzzle of some sort.

Even if the puzzle is that so many people think there is a puzzle when there is no puzzle.

using the word puzzle three times in a short sentence doesn’t make it interesting, a minor torment to someone making a point otherwise though, perhaps.

consciousness really isn’t that interesting, rather a substantially mundane business.

you know you ride the excitement up, but the important stuff, the tricks, probably happen on the way down.

it could look like a puzzle if you want to stay excited.

Feel free to ignore mundane questions.

The Rev Dodgson said:

transition said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

There must be a puzzle of some sort.

Even if the puzzle is that so many people think there is a puzzle when there is no puzzle.

using the word puzzle three times in a short sentence doesn’t make it interesting, a minor torment to someone making a point otherwise though, perhaps.

consciousness really isn’t that interesting, rather a substantially mundane business.

you know you ride the excitement up, but the important stuff, the tricks, probably happen on the way down.

it could look like a puzzle if you want to stay excited.

Feel free to ignore mundane questions.

my point was one of the primary functions of consciousness is to render a range of things mundane (calibrate interest/priorities), in the service of broader homeostasis.

you fell for the hook, that it is a puzzle, and reproduced the idea.

it may interest you in ways, at times, but that doesn’t make it a puzzle.

transition said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

transition said:

using the word puzzle three times in a short sentence doesn’t make it interesting, a minor torment to someone making a point otherwise though, perhaps.

consciousness really isn’t that interesting, rather a substantially mundane business.

you know you ride the excitement up, but the important stuff, the tricks, probably happen on the way down.

it could look like a puzzle if you want to stay excited.

Feel free to ignore mundane questions.

my point was one of the primary functions of consciousness is to render a range of things mundane (calibrate interest/priorities), in the service of broader homeostasis.

you fell for the hook, that it is a puzzle, and reproduced the idea.

it may interest you in ways, at times, but that doesn’t make it a puzzle.

I don’t know what your objection to the word is.

We don’t have a clue how consciousness works, or how we could go about creating a conscious machine, so the word you object to seems like a reasonable description of that situation to me.

The Rev Dodgson said:

transition said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Feel free to ignore mundane questions.

my point was one of the primary functions of consciousness is to render a range of things mundane (calibrate interest/priorities), in the service of broader homeostasis.

you fell for the hook, that it is a puzzle, and reproduced the idea.

it may interest you in ways, at times, but that doesn’t make it a puzzle.

I don’t know what your objection to the word is.

We don’t have a clue how consciousness works, or how we could go about creating a conscious machine, so the word you object to seems like a reasonable description of that situation to me.

the puzzle apparently has evolved into a situation.

we may not have a clue, but i’m sure you’re quite familiar with your own consciousness.

why you’d lurch to the comparison of replicating consciousness in a machine i’m not sure, enthusiasm I guess, probably it adds to the puzzle for you, attracted as you seem to puzzles.

you’d like to nurture consciousness outside your self, outside your species. It’s an idea, granted, possibly worse than no idea.

I could argue human minds are a machine, an organic one. You did say create.. a … machine, I guess you mean something that’s not an accident, like you and I.

transition said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

transition said:

my point was one of the primary functions of consciousness is to render a range of things mundane (calibrate interest/priorities), in the service of broader homeostasis.

you fell for the hook, that it is a puzzle, and reproduced the idea.

it may interest you in ways, at times, but that doesn’t make it a puzzle.

I don’t know what your objection to the word is.

We don’t have a clue how consciousness works, or how we could go about creating a conscious machine, so the word you object to seems like a reasonable description of that situation to me.

the puzzle apparently has evolved into a situation.

Don’t know what you mean.
transition said:

we may not have a clue, but i’m sure you’re quite familiar with your own consciousness.

Sure, but what does that have to do with it?

transition said:

why you’d lurch to the comparison of replicating consciousness in a machine i’m not sure, enthusiasm I guess, probably it adds to the puzzle for you, attracted as you seem to puzzles.

I haven’t lurched anywhere, thanks.

transition said:

you’d like to nurture consciousness outside your self, outside your species. It’s an idea, granted, possibly worse than no idea.

I could argue human minds are a machine, an organic one. You did say create.. a … machine, I guess you mean something that’s not an accident, like you and I.

Yeah, I did think about adding “other than by the means of sexual reproduction”, but thought I’d save the typing.

>I haven’t lurched anywhere, thanks.

you have, you say you have no idea what makes consciousness work, used an inclusive we (generalization + pretensions of familiarity) to assert it, then demonstrated a bizarre enthusiasm to reproduce what you don’t understand.

your remedy to the puzzle

transition said:

>I haven’t lurched anywhere, thanks.

you have, you say you have no idea what makes consciousness work, used an inclusive we (generalization + pretensions of familiarity) to assert it, then demonstrated a bizarre enthusiasm to reproduce what you don’t understand.

your remedy to the puzzle

What is my remedy to the puzzle, kind sir?

The Rev Dodgson said:

transition said:

>I haven’t lurched anywhere, thanks.

you have, you say you have no idea what makes consciousness work, used an inclusive we (generalization + pretensions of familiarity) to assert it, then demonstrated a bizarre enthusiasm to reproduce what you don’t understand.

your remedy to the puzzle

What is my remedy to the puzzle, kind sir?

we don’t know.

The Rev Dodgson said:

transition said:

>I haven’t lurched anywhere, thanks.

you have, you say you have no idea what makes consciousness work, used an inclusive we (generalization + pretensions of familiarity) to assert it, then demonstrated a bizarre enthusiasm to reproduce what you don’t understand.

your remedy to the puzzle

What is my remedy to the puzzle, kind sir?

don’t mind me today, I might be in a bit of a mood

not sure the idea, or approach to the study of minds, that they integrate information is new in any way at all, I don’t mean to trivialize but isn’t that fairly obvious of outward behaviors. If it’s evident of what people do, then it doesn’t seem like something new to speculate it happens in minds, the workings of. If someone observed it of human behavior, then tried to argue it doesn’t happen internally, well, that’d be surprising, certainly if evidence of it was provided.

so I dunno, is there something out there, some social force, that would have us regress to a black box view of the mind, suddenly people are toddlers again. Enjoy the micro-entertainments, it’s the new world.

I guess contemplating the structure of minds, that they have structure might be new. Imagine that structure’s what provides the plasticity, dear jesus there’s a contradiction in a sentence, perhaps. I’m digressing there.