I’m reading a book called The End: The Human Experience of Death by Bianca Nogrady.

Chapter 2 deals with what is death and when does it happen. She recounts a story where a four yo kid named Jamie had bacterial meningitis and in hospital, his brain ceased electrical activity. His family said he’s not dead, he’s still breathing (he was on a ventilator). For TWENTY YEARS they kept him on this ventilator. He was fed through a tube in his stomach. He was given hormone supplements but didn’t really go through puberty. He was given antibiotics as a preventative measure.

At the age of 24, he developed pneumonia and suffered a heart attack. His mother said he’d had enough and was not to be resuscitated. He was taken off the ventilator.

Afterwards, his mother authorised a brain-only autopsy. Upon opening the skull, it was found that Jamie’s brain had calcified. The meningitis had cut off blood supply to the brain, causing cells to erupt and calcium to leak through his brain.

The question thus, when did Jamie die? When his brain died or when his heart stopped beating? With the advent of technology, we are able to keep a body artificially “alive”, which complicates the issue of death.

Divine Angel said:

I’m reading a book called The End: The Human Experience of Death by Bianca Nogrady.

Chapter 2 deals with what is death and when does it happen. She recounts a story where a four yo kid named Jamie had bacterial meningitis and in hospital, his brain ceased electrical activity. His family said he’s not dead, he’s still breathing (he was on a ventilator). For TWENTY YEARS they kept him on this ventilator. He was fed through a tube in his stomach. He was given hormone supplements but didn’t really go through puberty. He was given antibiotics as a preventative measure.

At the age of 24, he developed pneumonia and suffered a heart attack. His mother said he’d had enough and was not to be resuscitated. He was taken off the ventilator.

Afterwards, his mother authorised a brain-only autopsy. Upon opening the skull, it was found that Jamie’s brain had calcified. The meningitis had cut off blood supply to the brain, causing cells to erupt and calcium to leak through his brain.

The question thus, when did Jamie die? When his brain died or when his heart stopped beating? With the advent of technology, we are able to keep a body artificially “alive”, which complicates the issue of death.

Brain.

I vote brain too. It’s not like the kid was ever going to recover.

They were basically just keeping the pump going, pretty pointless.

There is a growing belief that the brain outsources things like memories/experiences etc to the heart.

Peak Warming Man said:

There is a growing belief that the brain outsources things like memories/experiences etc to the heart.

So when people have a heart transplant they get the other persons memories, and lose their own?

The Rev Dodgson said:

Peak Warming Man said:

There is a growing belief that the brain outsources things like memories/experiences etc to the heart.

So when people have a heart transplant they get the other persons memories, and lose their own?

Well not entirely but it’s been known to happen I think.

Peak Warming Man said:

There is a growing belief that the brain outsources things like memories/experiences etc to the heart.

I don’t believe that. The heart is just a pump.

The Rev Dodgson said:

Peak Warming Man said:

There is a growing belief that the brain outsources things like memories/experiences etc to the heart.

So when people have a heart transplant they get the other persons memories, and lose their own?

That’s why there is no such thing as a brain transplant.

The point of death is arbitrary, as is Life, IMO.

Rule 303 said:

The point of death is arbitrary, as is Life, IMO.

I went through all the point of death stuff last night. While the exact instant of death was not apparent, death was certain after a few simple tests.

Lack of response, lack of movement, pulse, heartbeat, respiration, scratch on sole of foot, touch eyeball.

so if it never had a brain it can’t die

This thread has changed my viewpoint.

There’s Zaphod’s “I thought you were dead”. “I am, i just haven’t stopped moving yet”.

Then there’s the headless chicken who was kept alive for, more than a year, was it?

Also, i’ve heard of a child being born without a brain, literally, if you shine a light in the back of their head you can see it shining out of their eyeballs.

Is a brain all that important a requirememt for life?

Tamb said:

Rule 303 said:

The point of death is arbitrary, as is Life, IMO.

I went through all the point of death stuff last night. While the exact instant of death was not apparent, death was certain after a few simple tests.

Lack of response, lack of movement, pulse, heartbeat, respiration, scratch on sole of foot, touch eyeball.

Not Mz Tamb11?

sibeen said:

Tamb said:

Rule 303 said:

The point of death is arbitrary, as is Life, IMO.

I went through all the point of death stuff last night. While the exact instant of death was not apparent, death was certain after a few simple tests.

Lack of response, lack of movement, pulse, heartbeat, respiration, scratch on sole of foot, touch eyeball.

Not Mz Tamb11?

Err Mz Tamb II.

sibeen said:

Tamb said:

Rule 303 said:

The point of death is arbitrary, as is Life, IMO.

I went through all the point of death stuff last night. While the exact instant of death was not apparent, death was certain after a few simple tests.

Lack of response, lack of movement, pulse, heartbeat, respiration, scratch on sole of foot, touch eyeball.

Not Mz Tamb11?

Yes. 10 pm last night.

Tamb said:

sibeen said:

Tamb said:

I went through all the point of death stuff last night. While the exact instant of death was not apparent, death was certain after a few simple tests.

Lack of response, lack of movement, pulse, heartbeat, respiration, scratch on sole of foot, touch eyeball.

Not Mz Tamb11?

Yes. 10 pm last night.

Fuck, I am so sorry, Tamb.

Tamb said:

sibeen said:

Tamb said:

I went through all the point of death stuff last night. While the exact instant of death was not apparent, death was certain after a few simple tests.

Lack of response, lack of movement, pulse, heartbeat, respiration, scratch on sole of foot, touch eyeball.

Not Mz Tamb11?

Yes. 10 pm last night.

Oh shit. Bugger.

:(

SCIENCE said:

so if it never had a brain it can’t die

and that is why sibeen is still here. how lucky are we?

Tamb said:

sibeen said:

Tamb said:

I went through all the point of death stuff last night. While the exact instant of death was not apparent, death was certain after a few simple tests.

Lack of response, lack of movement, pulse, heartbeat, respiration, scratch on sole of foot, touch eyeball.

Not Mz Tamb11?

Yes. 10 pm last night.

Sad news. My condolences Tamb.

You looked after each other well.

Michael V said:

Tamb said:

sibeen said:

Not Mz Tamb11?

Yes. 10 pm last night.

Oh shit. Bugger.

:(

Oh man. I’m so sorry for you. So, so sorry.

Bubblecar said:

Tamb said:

sibeen said:

Not Mz Tamb11?

Yes. 10 pm last night.

Sad news. My condolences Tamb.

You looked after each other well.

Very well but not for nearly long enough.

Michael V said:

Michael V said:

Tamb said:

Yes. 10 pm last night.

Oh shit. Bugger.

:(

Oh man. I’m so sorry for you. So, so sorry.

Must admit I’m feeling pretty low atm.
The world is a lesser place for her passing.

Tamb said:

sibeen said:

Tamb said:

I went through all the point of death stuff last night. While the exact instant of death was not apparent, death was certain after a few simple tests.

Lack of response, lack of movement, pulse, heartbeat, respiration, scratch on sole of foot, touch eyeball.

Not Mz Tamb11?

Yes. 10 pm last night.

Blimey Tamb, sorry to hear that.

Tamb said:

sibeen said:

Tamb said:

I went through all the point of death stuff last night. While the exact instant of death was not apparent, death was certain after a few simple tests.

Lack of response, lack of movement, pulse, heartbeat, respiration, scratch on sole of foot, touch eyeball.

Not Mz Tamb11?

Yes. 10 pm last night.

Fuck, Tamb. I’m so sorry 😢

Michael V said:

Michael V said:

Tamb said:

Yes. 10 pm last night.

Oh shit. Bugger.

:(

Oh man. I’m so sorry for you. So, so sorry.

Ditto + HUGZ

mollwollfumble said:

This thread has changed my viewpoint.

There’s Zaphod’s “I thought you were dead”. “I am, i just haven’t stopped moving yet”.

Then there’s the headless chicken who was kept alive for, more than a year, was it?

Also, i’ve heard of a child being born without a brain, literally, if you shine a light in the back of their head you can see it shining out of their eyeballs.

Is a brain all that important a requirememt for life?

Wellllllll that depends on what you define as “life”. Jamie spent two decades on a ventilator. Was he alive?

Divine Angel said:

mollwollfumble said:

This thread has changed my viewpoint.

There’s Zaphod’s “I thought you were dead”. “I am, i just haven’t stopped moving yet”.

Then there’s the headless chicken who was kept alive for, more than a year, was it?

Also, i’ve heard of a child being born without a brain, literally, if you shine a light in the back of their head you can see it shining out of their eyeballs.

Is a brain all that important a requirememt for life?

Wellllllll that depends on what you define as “life”. Jamie spent two decades on a ventilator. Was he alive?

mike had a bit of brian stem still which kept him alive.

Tamb said:

sibeen said:

Tamb said:

I went through all the point of death stuff last night. While the exact instant of death was not apparent, death was certain after a few simple tests.

Lack of response, lack of movement, pulse, heartbeat, respiration, scratch on sole of foot, touch eyeball.

Not Mz Tamb11?

Yes. 10 pm last night.

Gobstruck.

I want to say something to you Tamb, but i can’t. Can’t find words, can’t see how it can help, it be an insignificant pebble cast against whatever confronts you now.

Sad for you both, if that means anything.

Tamb said:

Michael V said:

Michael V said:

Oh shit. Bugger.

:(

Oh man. I’m so sorry for you. So, so sorry.

Must admit I’m feeling pretty low atm.
The world is a lesser place for her passing.

:(

You can lean on us a lot, I reckon.

There are tens of thousands of people on life support in Israel, it’s against their religion to turn them off, apparently.

Shit :(

So sorry to read that. Condolences.

I’m sorry Tamb. I also have no words.

:(

Its not as if they kept him alive out of some twisted cruelty..
OBVIOUSLY… his parents had no idea his brain had calcified
until AFTER his actual body death and definitive brain autopsy.

Tamb said:

sibeen said:

Tamb said:

I went through all the point of death stuff last night. While the exact instant of death was not apparent, death was certain after a few simple tests.

Lack of response, lack of movement, pulse, heartbeat, respiration, scratch on sole of foot, touch eyeball.

Not Mz Tamb11?

Yes. 10 pm last night.

sorry to hear that.

The Rev Dodgson said:

Peak Warming Man said:

There is a growing belief that the brain outsources things like memories/experiences etc to the heart.

So when people have a heart transplant they get the other persons memories, and lose their own?

I thought this was interesting as years ago on a US tv program (I think) a man was seriously injured in a car accident and the decision was made due to he behind deemed clinically dead that his family gave consent for transplant be given to those people needing a transplant for his viable organs. His heart was given to a male heart recipient with heart failure. Apparently when he regained consciousness he had this atypical urge to consume a cheese burger from Maccas. Given his medical condition prior to surgery his diet plan had been very strict for may years but before his heart condition was diagnosed he did not frequent Maccas but had a meal very very occasionally many many years ago.

The interesting part was that when the parents and transplant patient met the heart donor’s parents they discovered it was the favourite meal of their son who been the heart donor. Interesting coincidence (I thought) :)

a few truths of (human) death can be gleaned from the question who would you want around in your last moments.

what qualities of another human or other humans would you like to attend your departure.

you could argue there is some sort of death in having lost or having no or little control over that.

as a thought experiment, I could characterize all unnatural death as that in which the departing are not with their preferred departure company, shall I say.

the truth is your last weeks, days, or moments may be more important than your entire life. Ideology or the expedient shared notions of the living, for living, may not incline you to consider that possibility perhaps.

consider amongst all that above to include the reclusive death, you may not want the soul-sucking necromongers from the underverse to even know of your death. They anticipate it anyway, sure as you were given a name after birth.

in the propositions of the OP was the question of determining when is someone dead so someone or an undefined we knows when to stop doing stuff for a dead person, or person-no-more.

biological or clinical?