How does Australia’s secret service work? This thread was prompted by concerns over the raid on the ABC.

Wikipedia says it consists of:

• Australian Security Intelligence Organisation
• Australian Secret Intelligence Service
• Defence Intelligence Organisation
• Australian Signals Directorate
• Australian Geospatial-Intelligence Organisation
• Office of National Intelligence (replaces the Office of National Assessments)

There’s also the Special Forces, but I don’t know how that fits in.

ASIO
ASIO is comparable to the British Security Service (MI5) and the United States Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). ASIO has a wide range of surveillance powers to collect human and signals intelligence. Generally, ASIO operations requiring police powers of arrest and detention under warrant are coordinated with the Australian Federal Police. (So there you go, that’s the connection with the ABC raid). It used to be under the Attorney General’s department – I don’t know whether it still is.

ASIS
ASIS is comparable to the British Secret Intelligence Service (MI6), Canada’s Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS) and the American Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). The ASIS role is to collect and disseminate facts only. Outside Australia only. It is not supposed to be in the analytical or policy advising or participate in violent action. Officers may carry weapons, but only for personal protection.

DIO
The DIO does not collect intelligence or conduct covert action, but works on defence economics, terrorism, and WMD. It is responsible for strategic intelligence and technical intelligence assessments, advising defence and government on both national and international issues. Tracks enemy weapons and forces.

ASD
It’s responsible for foreign signals intelligence (only foreign), support to military operations, cyber warfare, and information security. It is within the Department of Defence. Equivalent to the NSA in the USA and GCHQ in the UK.

AGO
is part of the Department of Defence responsible for the collection, analysis, and distribution of geospatial intelligence (GEOINT) in support of Australia’s defence and national interests.

ONI
This is directly accountable to the Prime Minister of Australia. It provides all-source assessments on international political, strategic and economic developments to the Prime Minister. “On the 18 July 2017, Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull announced the creation of the Office of National Intelligence in line with recommendations from the 2017 Independent Review of the Australian Intelligence Community led by Michael L’Estrange and Stephen Merchant. ONI was formally stood up on the 20 December 2018.”

Special Forces / Special Operations
The special forces of the Australian Defence Force are units of Special Operations Command and associated units of the Royal Australian Navy and the Royal Australian Air Force that conduct and or support special operations to advance and protect the national security of the Commonwealth of Australia. Commandos. Too much to describe, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_forces_of_Australia

How the hell did you get hold of all this information.

Follow the reporting lines and look to the security and defence committees for the tasks.

AwesomeO said:

Follow the reporting lines and look to the security and defence committees for the tasks.

As the legendary Washington investigative journalist I.F. Stone (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I._F._Stone) used to say, ‘read all of the documents – it’s all buried in there somewhere’.

I find it amusing that the CIA, FBI, NSA and MI5, MI6 are better known in Australia than our own intelligence agencies.

There are notes in wikipedia of the existence of two secret services in Australia being hidden even from the prime minister for decades. And only becoming known to the public very much than that.

Perhaps the ABC stumbled on a secret service that even the Prime Minister doesn’t have knowledge of. I note that violent overseas actions by Australia are not permitted for any of the six official agencies. But the ABC found it happening.

mollwollfumble said:

I find it amusing that the CIA, FBI, NSA and MI5, MI6 are better known in Australia than our own intelligence agencies.

There are notes in wikipedia of the existence of two secret services in Australia being hidden even from the prime minister for decades. And only becoming known to the public very much than that.

Perhaps the ABC stumbled on a secret service that even the Prime Minister doesn’t have knowledge of. I note that violent overseas actions by Australia are not permitted for any of the six official agencies. But the ABC found it happening.

I’ve run into ASIO people in years gone by. They seemed to be a fairly intelligent, level-headed, and capable bunch who found some of their organisation’s past history head-shakingly laughable.

The ASIS people i met struck me as being a bunch of cowboys whose training seemed to have consisted of watching old Matt Helm ‘spy’ movies and who had an average mental age of 12.

captain_spalding said:

The ASIS people i met struck me as being a bunch of cowboys whose training seemed to have consisted of watching old Matt Helm ‘spy’ movies and who had an average mental age of 12.

Well, that’s comforting. Thanks :p

party_pants said:

captain_spalding said:

The ASIS people i met struck me as being a bunch of cowboys whose training seemed to have consisted of watching old Matt Helm ‘spy’ movies and who had an average mental age of 12.

Well, that’s comforting. Thanks :p

What was the name of the TV show(British) where the detective went back in time to the seventies?

roughbarked said:

party_pants said:

captain_spalding said:

The ASIS people i met struck me as being a bunch of cowboys whose training seemed to have consisted of watching old Matt Helm ‘spy’ movies and who had an average mental age of 12.

Well, that’s comforting. Thanks :p

What was the name of the TV show(British) where the detective went back in time to the seventies?

‘Life On Mars’. Very good series.

captain_spalding said:

roughbarked said:

party_pants said:

Well, that’s comforting. Thanks :p

What was the name of the TV show(British) where the detective went back in time to the seventies?

‘Life On Mars’. Very good series.

yes it was and I did think it applicable to the above.

party_pants said:

captain_spalding said:

The ASIS people i met struck me as being a bunch of cowboys whose training seemed to have consisted of watching old Matt Helm ‘spy’ movies and who had an average mental age of 12.

Well, that’s comforting. Thanks :p

Honestly, they were hopeless. We had to ‘provide facilities to assist with their training’, and they’d turn up, and you couldn’t tell them a thing. They knew everything already, they were always right, because they were ASIS. Then they’d fall flat on their faces (literally, on occasion), and you could see the cogs going around, wondering why that happened.

Apparently, the Americans had a saying – íf you want to setup a decoy job, one that’s guaranteed to be compromised, give it to ASIS to do.

roughbarked said:

party_pants said:

captain_spalding said:

The ASIS people i met struck me as being a bunch of cowboys whose training seemed to have consisted of watching old Matt Helm ‘spy’ movies and who had an average mental age of 12.

Well, that’s comforting. Thanks :p

What was the name of the TV show(British) where the detective went back in time to the seventies?

I don’t have a television.

party_pants said:

roughbarked said:

party_pants said:

Well, that’s comforting. Thanks :p

What was the name of the TV show(British) where the detective went back in time to the seventies?

I don’t have a television.

What a strange name for a detective series.

party_pants said:

roughbarked said:

party_pants said:

Well, that’s comforting. Thanks :p

What was the name of the TV show(British) where the detective went back in time to the seventies?

I don’t have a television.

What’s with you WAliens? First there is Boris, now you too.

Mind, Mrs rb and I went without TV for a decade. Until I brought home a TV to stop the family from relying upon visiting neighbours to watch David Attenborough.

captain_spalding said:

party_pants said:

roughbarked said:

What was the name of the TV show(British) where the detective went back in time to the seventies?

I don’t have a television.

What a strange name for a detective series.

It sounds more like the title a rapper would use.

roughbarked said:

party_pants said:

roughbarked said:

What was the name of the TV show(British) where the detective went back in time to the seventies?

I don’t have a television.

What’s with you WAliens? First there is Boris, now you too.

Mind, Mrs rb and I went without TV for a decade. Until I brought home a TV to stop the family from relying upon visiting neighbours to watch David Attenborough.

It was a joke, Barnaby.

I have a television, but i don’t use it very often. Mostly for live sports or as a second monitor for Netflix, Kayo , Youtube or some other streaming service. I rarely, and I mean very rarely, watch other scheduled programming on free to air TV.

party_pants said:

roughbarked said:

party_pants said:

I don’t have a television.

What’s with you WAliens? First there is Boris, now you too.

Mind, Mrs rb and I went without TV for a decade. Until I brought home a TV to stop the family from relying upon visiting neighbours to watch David Attenborough.

It was a joke, Barnaby.

I have a television, but i don’t use it very often. Mostly for live sports or as a second monitor for Netflix, Kayo , Youtube or some other streaming service. I rarely, and I mean very rarely, watch other scheduled programming on free to air TV.

free to air isn’t worth clicking through unless you are very very bored.

Subject: Re: How does Australia’s secret service work?

Well, it is secret for at least an intentional starting point. that is: secret from those it serves?

captain_spalding said:

mollwollfumble said:

I find it amusing that the CIA, FBI, NSA and MI5, MI6 are better known in Australia than our own intelligence agencies.

There are notes in wikipedia of the existence of two secret services in Australia being hidden even from the prime minister for decades. And only becoming known to the public very much than that.

Perhaps the ABC stumbled on a secret service that even the Prime Minister doesn’t have knowledge of. I note that violent overseas actions by Australia are not permitted for any of the six official agencies. But the ABC found it happening.

I’ve run into ASIO people in years gone by. They seemed to be a fairly intelligent, level-headed, and capable bunch who found some of their organisation’s past history head-shakingly laughable.

The ASIS people i met struck me as being a bunch of cowboys whose training seemed to have consisted of watching old Matt Helm ‘spy’ movies and who had an average mental age of 12.

Thanks for that. I have met one ASIO person. They match that assessment.

> ASD
> It’s responsible for foreign signals intelligence (only foreign), support to military operations, cyber warfare, and information security. It is within the Department of Defence. Equivalent to the NSA in the USA and GCHQ in the UK.

If ASD is the equivalent of the NSA then the wikipedia article on the NSA is particularly worrying. Including:

Spying on the personal phone of Angela Merkel, backdoor access into the kernel of Linux, automatic reports of everyone who buys privacy software, hardware backdoors installed in computers exported.

Data gathered from people who use Microsoft, Yahoo, Google, Facebook, PalTalk, AOL, Skype, YouTube and Apple. Data gathered include email, video and voice chat, videos, photos, VoIP chats such as Skype, and file transfers.

> AGO
is part of the Department of Defence responsible for the collection, analysis, and distribution of geospatial intelligence (GEOINT) in support of Australia’s defence and national interests.

What the heck is geospatial intelligence? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geospatial_intelligence

“GEOINT encompasses all aspects of imagery, including satellite, mapping, charting, and geodesy. It includes geotagged social media.”

“Geospatial Intelligence data sources include imagery and mapping data, whether collected by commercial satellite, government satellite, aircraft, reconnaissance UAVs, or maps and commercial databases, census information, GPS waypoints, utility schematics, or any discrete data that have locations on earth.”

I still don’t get it. Why is this called “intelligence”?

mollwollfumble said:

captain_spalding said:

mollwollfumble said:

I find it amusing that the CIA, FBI, NSA and MI5, MI6 are better known in Australia than our own intelligence agencies.

There are notes in wikipedia of the existence of two secret services in Australia being hidden even from the prime minister for decades. And only becoming known to the public very much than that.

Perhaps the ABC stumbled on a secret service that even the Prime Minister doesn’t have knowledge of. I note that violent overseas actions by Australia are not permitted for any of the six official agencies. But the ABC found it happening.

I’ve run into ASIO people in years gone by. They seemed to be a fairly intelligent, level-headed, and capable bunch who found some of their organisation’s past history head-shakingly laughable.

The ASIS people i met struck me as being a bunch of cowboys whose training seemed to have consisted of watching old Matt Helm ‘spy’ movies and who had an average mental age of 12.

Thanks for that. I have met one ASIO person. They match that assessment.

> ASD
> It’s responsible for foreign signals intelligence (only foreign), support to military operations, cyber warfare, and information security. It is within the Department of Defence. Equivalent to the NSA in the USA and GCHQ in the UK.

If ASD is the equivalent of the NSA then the wikipedia article on the NSA is particularly worrying. Including:

Spying on the personal phone of Angela Merkel, backdoor access into the kernel of Linux, automatic reports of everyone who buys privacy software, hardware backdoors installed in computers exported.

Data gathered from people who use Microsoft, Yahoo, Google, Facebook, PalTalk, AOL, Skype, YouTube and Apple. Data gathered include email, video and voice chat, videos, photos, VoIP chats such as Skype, and file transfers.

> AGO
is part of the Department of Defence responsible for the collection, analysis, and distribution of geospatial intelligence (GEOINT) in support of Australia’s defence and national interests.

What the heck is geospatial intelligence? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geospatial_intelligence

“GEOINT encompasses all aspects of imagery, including satellite, mapping, charting, and geodesy. It includes geotagged social media.”

“Geospatial Intelligence data sources include imagery and mapping data, whether collected by commercial satellite, government satellite, aircraft, reconnaissance UAVs, or maps and commercial databases, census information, GPS waypoints, utility schematics, or any discrete data that have locations on earth.”

I still don’t get it. Why is this called “intelligence”?

Basically for want of a better word at the time it was proposed. The name came from secret wartime activitty.

I bet the information they are looking for will turn out to be trivial and forgettable.

Tau.Neutrino said:

I bet the information they are looking for will turn out to be trivial and forgettable.

They filter that out.

From wikipedia NSA entry.

“Edward Snowden revealed in June 2013 that between February 8 and March 8, 2013, the NSA collected about 124.8 billion telephone data items and 97.1 billion computer data items throughout the world, as was displayed in charts from an internal NSA tool codenamed Boundless Informant.”

What would you do with all the NSA data as a scientist?

For starters, it’d be brilliant for city planning. Transport blockages, hospitals, schools etc.

The war is already lost

wookiemeister said:

The war is already lost

Which war?

The American war?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_intelligence_agencies

Intelligence agencies sorted by country.

China has only two, apparently. Argentina has sixteen.

India has a very interesting 23 intelligence agencies, separated into groups of external intelligence, defence intelligence, internal security, economic intelligence and perhaps most interesting of all “wildlife crime control bureau”.

mollwollfumble said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_intelligence_agencies

Intelligence agencies sorted by country.

China has only two, apparently. Argentina has sixteen.

India has a very interesting 23 intelligence agencies, separated into groups of external intelligence, defence intelligence, internal security, economic intelligence and perhaps most interesting of all “wildlife crime control bureau”.

I wonder how much interagency cooperation their is or if they try to get one up on each other and withhold information

mollwollfumble said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_intelligence_agencies

Intelligence agencies sorted by country.

China has only two, apparently. Argentina has sixteen.

India has a very interesting 23 intelligence agencies, separated into groups of external intelligence, defence intelligence, internal security, economic intelligence and perhaps most interesting of all “wildlife crime control bureau”.

Some countries usually with an insecure leadership end up with co-equal agencies and defence forces below them competing for favour and funding. Helps stop any one organisational chief who controls information or guns getting ideas.

Cymek said:

mollwollfumble said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_intelligence_agencies

Intelligence agencies sorted by country.

China has only two, apparently. Argentina has sixteen.

India has a very interesting 23 intelligence agencies, separated into groups of external intelligence, defence intelligence, internal security, economic intelligence and perhaps most interesting of all “wildlife crime control bureau”.

I wonder how much interagency cooperation their is or if they try to get one up on each other and withhold information

Yes, that is a good question. There is supposedly a lot of cooperation between similar agencies in Australia, New Zealand, Canada, USA and Singapore if i remember correctly.

But on the other hand, the lack of communication between the CIA and FBI is legendary. In addition, there is definitely a huge lack of communication between the CIA and the CIA.