Trump, Brexit, Scomo. Trump. And as may well be, Trump again.

What went wrong? And should we still bother, or is there some other way?

Bubblecar said:

Trump, Brexit, Scomo. Trump. And as may well be, Trump again.

What went wrong? And should we still bother, or is there some other way?

at least some of the shift can be attributed to population pressures, the retreat from globalization, or globalism

there’s maybe ~60million displaced people in the world, substantial climate change, and geopolitical tensions between a superpower and an emerging superpower.

Bubblecar said:

Trump, Brexit, Scomo. Trump. And as may well be, Trump again.

What went wrong? And should we still bother, or is there some other way?

Trump’s legacy will mostly be determined by those who come after him.

Witty Rejoinder said:

Bubblecar said:

Trump, Brexit, Scomo. Trump. And as may well be, Trump again.

What went wrong? And should we still bother, or is there some other way?

Trump’s legacy will mostly be determined by those who come after him.

His most important legacy will be – Trump was not just theoretically possible, Trump happened. Western democracy enabled a Trump.

It’s a very damning legacy indeed, for what it tells us about the nature of our people (yes, it’s not just Americans) and the frailty of our political conventions.

>It’s a very damning legacy indeed, for what it tells us about the nature of our people (yes, it’s not just Americans) and the frailty of our political conventions.

I don’t think so, you have to see and appreciate the stability that exists, the checks and balances.

I wouldn’t confuse America with Australia.

Bubblecar said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

Bubblecar said:

Trump, Brexit, Scomo. Trump. And as may well be, Trump again.

What went wrong? And should we still bother, or is there some other way?

Trump’s legacy will mostly be determined by those who come after him.

His most important legacy will be – Trump was not just theoretically possible, Trump happened. Western democracy enabled a Trump.

It’s a very damning legacy indeed, for what it tells us about the nature of our people (yes, it’s not just Americans) and the frailty of our political conventions.

What political conventions has he changed?

It is actually very, very difficult for a US President to change much at all. There is a hell of a lot of ‘inertia’ in the system. A case in point being the off-shore military prison at Guantanamo Bay. Obama promised to close the prison. Eight years later…nada.

Bubblecar said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

Bubblecar said:

Trump, Brexit, Scomo. Trump. And as may well be, Trump again.

What went wrong? And should we still bother, or is there some other way?

Trump’s legacy will mostly be determined by those who come after him.

His most important legacy will be – Trump was not just theoretically possible, Trump happened. Western democracy enabled a Trump.

It’s a very damning legacy indeed, for what it tells us about the nature of our people (yes, it’s not just Americans) and the frailty of our political conventions.

I don’t think it is a failure of democracy that unsavoury characters are sometimes elected. If we follow that argument we risk abandoning democratic principles and possibly unwillingly embracing the beginnings of tyranny.

At best one could advocate intelligence tests for voters which would have little effect other than demonstrating that some seemingly intelligent people of capable of some seriously questionable decision making.

transition said:

>It’s a very damning legacy indeed, for what it tells us about the nature of our people (yes, it’s not just Americans) and the frailty of our political conventions.

I don’t think so, you have to see and appreciate the stability that exists, the checks and balances.

I wouldn’t confuse America with Australia.

We aren’t stepping away from it.

sarahs mum said:

transition said:

>It’s a very damning legacy indeed, for what it tells us about the nature of our people (yes, it’s not just Americans) and the frailty of our political conventions.

I don’t think so, you have to see and appreciate the stability that exists, the checks and balances.

I wouldn’t confuse America with Australia.

We aren’t stepping away from it.

yeah I heard the noises from the carrier the other day

‘are capable’

sibeen said:

Bubblecar said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

Trump’s legacy will mostly be determined by those who come after him.

His most important legacy will be – Trump was not just theoretically possible, Trump happened. Western democracy enabled a Trump.

It’s a very damning legacy indeed, for what it tells us about the nature of our people (yes, it’s not just Americans) and the frailty of our political conventions.

What political conventions has he changed?

It is actually very, very difficult for a US President to change much at all. There is a hell of a lot of ‘inertia’ in the system. A case in point being the off-shore military prison at Guantanamo Bay. Obama promised to close the prison. Eight years later…nada.

He didn’t need to change any conventions. The conventions enabled him to be president. We didn’t see that coming.

Many were warning that the 21st century would see the decline of the West. But they didn’t warn us that this would come via the ballot box.

Take kindly the counsel of the years,
gracefully surrendering the things of youth.
Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune.
But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings.
Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.
Beyond a wholesome discipline,
be gentle with yourself.
And snuggle under the blanket of protection
that Western Democracy provides.

Bubblecar said:

sibeen said:

Bubblecar said:

His most important legacy will be – Trump was not just theoretically possible, Trump happened. Western democracy enabled a Trump.

It’s a very damning legacy indeed, for what it tells us about the nature of our people (yes, it’s not just Americans) and the frailty of our political conventions.

What political conventions has he changed?

It is actually very, very difficult for a US President to change much at all. There is a hell of a lot of ‘inertia’ in the system. A case in point being the off-shore military prison at Guantanamo Bay. Obama promised to close the prison. Eight years later…nada.

He didn’t need to change any conventions. The conventions enabled him to be president. We didn’t see that coming.

Many were warning that the 21st century would see the decline of the West. But they didn’t warn us that this would come via the ballot box.

to be fair it’s come as a consequence of some excesses of the free market, philosophy, or ideology so. Dominance of private wealth undermining bureaucracies that serve the democracy

Well, I’ll tell you what happened..

Trump ..The Failed States have a shit electoral system

Brexit .. A miscalculation

Scomo ..Bloody Queensland

Trump. And as may well be, Trump again .. See above

Ian said:

Well, I’ll tell you what happened..

Trump ..The Failed States have a shit electoral system

Brexit .. A miscalculation

Scomo ..Bloody Queensland

Trump. And as may well be, Trump again .. See above

Good Summary

For people of my generation, the Right were characterised much of the time by an overly paranoid view of Russia (the domino theory etc).

But now they’ve swung full circle and the Right have welcomed heavy Russian involvement in their election campaign (USA) and much Russian investment in Brexit and the rise and funding of the European far right, despite the the overtly anti-Western stance of the Russian leader.

Are they just fools or were the Western Right anti-Western all along?

Bubblecar said:

For people of my generation, the Right were characterised much of the time by an overly paranoid view of Russia (the domino theory etc).

But now they’ve swung full circle and the Right have welcomed heavy Russian involvement in their election campaign (USA) and much Russian investment in Brexit and the rise and funding of the European far right, despite the the overtly anti-Western stance of the Russian leader.

Are they just fools or were the Western Right anti-Western all along?

The Right are Wrong.

The Left are Right.

Bubblecar said:

For people of my generation, the Right were characterised much of the time by an overly paranoid view of Russia (the domino theory etc).

But now they’ve swung full circle and the Right have welcomed heavy Russian involvement in their election campaign (USA) and much Russian investment in Brexit and the rise and funding of the European far right, despite the the overtly anti-Western stance of the Russian leader.

Are they just fools or were the Western Right anti-Western all along?

Fools. Take Brexit. A Tory like Boris Johnston has declared ‘stuff business’ when it comes to disengaging from the world’s largest free market over a very nebulous idea of national sovereignty.

sibeen said:

Bubblecar said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

Trump’s legacy will mostly be determined by those who come after him.

His most important legacy will be – Trump was not just theoretically possible, Trump happened. Western democracy enabled a Trump.

It’s a very damning legacy indeed, for what it tells us about the nature of our people (yes, it’s not just Americans) and the frailty of our political conventions.

What political conventions has he changed?

It is actually very, very difficult for a US President to change much at all. There is a hell of a lot of ‘inertia’ in the system. A case in point being the off-shore military prison at Guantanamo Bay. Obama promised to close the prison. Eight years later…nada.

Hillary started it. Then everyone picked it up. It didn’t matter who you voted for it would be shut.

But it is still there…

To grasp what is going on in the world right now, we need to reflect on two things. One is that we are in a phase of trial runs. The other is that what is being trialled is fascism – a word that should be used carefully but not shirked when it is so clearly on the horizon. Forget “post-fascist” – what we are living with is pre-fascism.

It is easy to dismiss Donald Trump as an ignoramus, not least because he is. But he has an acute understanding of one thing: test marketing. He created himself in the gossip pages of the New York tabloids, where celebrity is manufactured by planting outrageous stories that you can later confirm or deny depending on how they go down. And he recreated himself in reality TV where the storylines can be adjusted according to the ratings. Put something out there, pull it back, adjust, go again.

Fascism doesn’t arise suddenly in an existing democracy. It is not easy to get people to give up their ideas of freedom and civility. You have to do trial runs that, if they are done well, serve two purposes. They get people used to something they may initially recoil from; and they allow you to refine and calibrate. This is what is happening now and we would be fools not to see it.

One of the basic tools of fascism is the rigging of elections – we’ve seen that trialled in the election of Trump, in the Brexit referendum and (less successfully) in the French presidential elections. Another is the generation of tribal identities, the division of society into mutually exclusive polarities. Fascism does not need a majority – it typically comes to power with about 40 per cent support and then uses control and intimidation to consolidate that power. So it doesn’t matter if most people hate you, as long as your 40 per cent is fanatically committed. That’s been tested out too. And fascism of course needs a propaganda machine so effective that it creates for its followers a universe of “alternative facts” impervious to unwanted realities. Again, the testing for this is very far advanced.

more…

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-trial-runs-for-fascism-are-in-full-flow-1.3543375

Bubblecar said:

Trump, Brexit, Scomo. Trump. And as may well be, Trump again.

What went wrong? And should we still bother, or is there some other way?

Globalism
Resource hoarding
Greed
Mismanagement

Bubblecar said:

Trump, Brexit, Scomo. Trump. And as may well be, Trump again.

What went wrong? And should we still bother, or is there some other way?

Better Education Teach:

Ethics
Logic
Critical Thinking
Observation
Human rights
Basic Common Law
Basic Statute Law
Emotional Intelligence
Emotional control
How to cope with jealousy
How to cope with rejection
Relationship skills

Tau.Neutrino said:

Bubblecar said:

Trump, Brexit, Scomo. Trump. And as may well be, Trump again.

What went wrong? And should we still bother, or is there some other way?

Better Education Teach:

Ethics
Logic
Critical Thinking
Observation
Human rights
Basic Common Law
Basic Statute Law
Emotional Intelligence
Emotional control
How to cope with jealousy
How to cope with rejection
Relationship skills

Problem solving
How to debate in an argument
etc

Tau.Neutrino said:

Bubblecar said:

Trump, Brexit, Scomo. Trump. And as may well be, Trump again.

What went wrong? And should we still bother, or is there some other way?

Globalism
Resource hoarding
Greed
Mismanagement

The Internet is what went wrong. It permits all the nutters and those with ideas of domination to influence vast numbers of people. Remember at least half the population have an IQ of less than 100 and if you can sway most of those, you have then made it and your influence is greater than any genius..

PermeateFree said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Bubblecar said:

Trump, Brexit, Scomo. Trump. And as may well be, Trump again.

What went wrong? And should we still bother, or is there some other way?

Globalism
Resource hoarding
Greed
Mismanagement

The Internet is what went wrong. It permits all the nutters and those with ideas of domination to influence vast numbers of people. Remember at least half the population have an IQ of less than 100 and if you can sway most of those, you have then made it and your influence is greater than any genius..

I wonder if the majority of Islamic State had low IQ?

Tau.Neutrino said:

PermeateFree said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Globalism
Resource hoarding
Greed
Mismanagement

The Internet is what went wrong. It permits all the nutters and those with ideas of domination to influence vast numbers of people. Remember at least half the population have an IQ of less than 100 and if you can sway most of those, you have then made it and your influence is greater than any genius..

I wonder if the majority of Islamic State had low IQ?

You are talking about an ideology there with very fixed ideas. Western Democracy permits people to move in any direction and so are open to appealing ideas and solutions that fall well short of ideology.

Teaching these skills would bring down the levels of domestic violence

Emotional Intelligence
Emotional control
How to cope with jealousy
How to cope with rejection
Relationship skills

PermeateFree said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Bubblecar said:

Trump, Brexit, Scomo. Trump. And as may well be, Trump again.

What went wrong? And should we still bother, or is there some other way?

Globalism
Resource hoarding
Greed
Mismanagement

The Internet is what went wrong. It permits all the nutters and those with ideas of domination to influence vast numbers of people. Remember at least half the population have an IQ of less than 100 and if you can sway most of those, you have then made it and your influence is greater than any genius..

But it’s not true that the unintelligent are always going to cast a silly vote. Take Clive Palmer: practically no one voted for him despite the advertising while Pauline Hanson’s vote stayed up. So idiots can still be discerning.

Tau.Neutrino said:

PermeateFree said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Globalism
Resource hoarding
Greed
Mismanagement

The Internet is what went wrong. It permits all the nutters and those with ideas of domination to influence vast numbers of people. Remember at least half the population have an IQ of less than 100 and if you can sway most of those, you have then made it and your influence is greater than any genius..

I wonder if the majority of Islamic State had low IQ?

I did once read the ancestors of Irish people who fled Ireland are smarter than the ancestors of those who stayed.

Tau.Neutrino said:

Teaching these skills would bring down the levels of domestic violence

Emotional Intelligence
Emotional control
How to cope with jealousy
How to cope with rejection
Relationship skills

Love to see you try in Bogon Central. :)

sarahs mum said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

PermeateFree said:

The Internet is what went wrong. It permits all the nutters and those with ideas of domination to influence vast numbers of people. Remember at least half the population have an IQ of less than 100 and if you can sway most of those, you have then made it and your influence is greater than any genius..

I wonder if the majority of Islamic State had low IQ?

I did once read the ancestors of Irish people who fled Ireland are smarter than the ancestors of those who stayed.

(those refugees we have in detention seem to be a smart bunch.)

(We don’t care whether they are Nobel prize winners.)

Witty Rejoinder said:

PermeateFree said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Globalism
Resource hoarding
Greed
Mismanagement

The Internet is what went wrong. It permits all the nutters and those with ideas of domination to influence vast numbers of people. Remember at least half the population have an IQ of less than 100 and if you can sway most of those, you have then made it and your influence is greater than any genius..

But it’s not true that the unintelligent are always going to cast a silly vote. Take Clive Palmer: practically no one voted for him despite the advertising while Pauline Hanson’s vote stayed up. So idiots can still be discerning.

But it is easier to influence a dumb person than a bright one. All you need do is get enough people to vote the way you want. Pauline Hansen and others are a good example of how bright people are.

PermeateFree said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Teaching these skills would bring down the levels of domestic violence

Emotional Intelligence
Emotional control
How to cope with jealousy
How to cope with rejection
Relationship skills

Love to see you try in Bogon Central. :)

He has serious issues with the bogan next store.

All Trades have Traineeships or apprentices .

Time for 1-3 years training for would be politicians.

So they all have some idea of Law making and Ethics.

>Remember at least half the population have an IQ of less than 100

that means most people have an IQ ~100, so doesn’t look so bad writ that way, does it?

transition said:

>Remember at least half the population have an IQ of less than 100

that means most people have an IQ ~100, so doesn’t look so bad writ that way, does it?

It just makes it easier for unscrupulous individuals to influence them. You don’t need to turn them into Nazi’s, just to vote for the story you present to them.

transition said:

>Remember at least half the population have an IQ of less than 100

that means most people have an IQ ~100, so doesn’t look so bad writ that way, does it?

don’t mind me, I didn’t mean to detract from your surplus native intelligence

Tau.Neutrino said:

All Trades have Traineeships or apprentices .

Time for 1-3 years training for would be politicians.

So they all have some idea of Law making and Ethics.

Performance Pay for politicians?

transition said:

transition said:

>Remember at least half the population have an IQ of less than 100

that means most people have an IQ ~100, so doesn’t look so bad writ that way, does it?

don’t mind me, I didn’t mean to detract from your surplus native intelligence

Would you like to expand upon that so it can be better understood, because as it stands it sounds like a bogon statement.

PermeateFree said:

transition said:

transition said:

>Remember at least half the population have an IQ of less than 100

that means most people have an IQ ~100, so doesn’t look so bad writ that way, does it?

don’t mind me, I didn’t mean to detract from your surplus native intelligence

Would you like to expand upon that so it can be better understood, because as it stands it sounds like a bogon statement.

nah’s just little me, little old I, wondering what the point of dividing the Bell curve down the middle was, some genius that escapes me

Bubblecar said:

Trump, Brexit, Scomo. Trump. And as may well be, Trump again.

What went wrong? And should we still bother, or is there some other way?

What went wrong. Well, initially Cromwell.

Western democracy has never been right since.

More recently, Hoover in the USA. Trump is an angel compared to Hoover.

In Australia, i’d rather SloMo than Howard, Fraser or Menzies any day. He may even be better than Guillard.

Should we still bother? I believe so. Western democracy is positively wonderful compared to democracy in countries such as Papua New Guinea.

transition said:

PermeateFree said:

transition said:

don’t mind me, I didn’t mean to detract from your surplus native intelligence

Would you like to expand upon that so it can be better understood, because as it stands it sounds like a bogon statement.

nah’s just little me, little old I, wondering what the point of dividing the Bell curve down the middle was, some genius that escapes me

Sorry, still none the wiser, but I have always had problems understanding your posts, to me they seem to have either too many irrelevant words, and/or not enough relevant ones.

Tau.Neutrino said:

Bubblecar said:

Trump, Brexit, Scomo. Trump. And as may well be, Trump again.

What went wrong? And should we still bother, or is there some other way?

Better Education Teach:

Ethics
Logic
Critical Thinking
Observation
Human rights
Basic Common Law
Basic Statute Law
Emotional Intelligence
Emotional control
How to cope with jealousy
How to cope with rejection
Relationship skills

Fixed. Emotional intelligence is a breeding ground for psychopaths. Intelligence on the other hand can be and should be taught.

But the original topic is very different.

The problem with western democracy in the USA and in Australia is the power behind the throne. I can’t comment on Britain.

In Australia, the power behind the throne is a combination of political factions and the press. It is political factions, not the party and certainly not the electors, who decide who the prime minister is in Australia, and decide what he/she/it can say and do. It is the press that tells the political factions what to do.

The power behind the throne in the USA is the secret service. They deliberately isolate the president and his/her/its family from all factual information. Obama called this “the bubble”. The equivalent in ancient Rome was the Praetorian Guard, and they brought down their own civilization.

mollwollfumble said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Bubblecar said:

Trump, Brexit, Scomo. Trump. And as may well be, Trump again.

What went wrong? And should we still bother, or is there some other way?

Better Education Teach:

Ethics
Logic
Critical Thinking
Observation
Human rights
Basic Common Law
Basic Statute Law
Emotional Intelligence
Emotional control
How to cope with jealousy
How to cope with rejection
Relationship skills

Fixed. Emotional intelligence is a breeding ground for psychopaths. Intelligence on the other hand can be and should be taught.

But the original topic is very different.

The problem with western democracy in the USA and in Australia is the power behind the throne. I can’t comment on Britain.

In Australia, the power behind the throne is a combination of political factions and the press. It is political factions, not the party and certainly not the electors, who decide who the prime minister is in Australia, and decide what he/she/it can say and do. It is the press that tells the political factions what to do.

The power behind the throne in the USA is the secret service. They deliberately isolate the president and his/her/its family from all factual information. Obama called this “the bubble”. The equivalent in ancient Rome was the Praetorian Guard, and they brought down their own civilization.

Moll is an example of an eminently intelligent fellow with some strange ideas about politics (amongst other things). Should we deny him the vote?

Bubblecar said:

Trump, Brexit, Scomo. Trump. And as may well be, Trump again.

What went wrong? And should we still bother, or is there some other way?

Well, All that lot got voted for, Parpyone. Perhaps you might ask those that voted that way to find out why.

Bubblecar said:

Trump, Brexit, Scomo. Trump. And as may well be, Trump again.

What went wrong? And should we still bother, or is there some other way?

Reasonable people disengaged, forgot how crucial these decisions are. Unscrupulous people made very clever and calculated appeals to the ignorant, who were riled up and turned up in droves.

I’m mildly confident that lessons have been learned. The Repugnicans got hammered in the midterms and might well again next year. Most Britons indicate they want a second referendum and most would vote No. Hopefully we’ve seen the worst.

Bubblecar said:

Trump, Brexit, Scomo. Trump. And as may well be, Trump again.

What went wrong? And should we still bother, or is there some other way?

Remind me to post a good scientist cartoon that i made up a few days ago that you haven’t seen yet.

Any yes, i have a weird view of politics. I still don’t see why we need it at all. I’m starting to think about an alternative that i hadn’t seriously considered before. To whit, conduct interviews to select a prime minister or president. Have to submit a resume in advance. Anyone can apply.

> Moll is an example of an eminently intelligent fellow with some strange ideas about politics (amongst other things). Should we deny him the vote?

I’ve learnt about politics mainly from reading Machiavelli “The Prince” and Gibbons “Decline and fall of the Roman Empire”. With extra input from Lao Tzu “Tao Te Ching”, Heinlein “The moon is a harsh mistress”, and Adams “The restaurant at the end of the universe”, together with TV shows about democracy in Ancient Greece, about Starlin, and from personal observation.

So excuse me for being somewhat cynical about the value of politics.

Inspired by Trump, Reagan, Nixon, Hoover, various Australian politicians, and Dungeons and Dragons.

mollwollfumble said:

> Moll is an example of an eminently intelligent fellow with some strange ideas about politics (amongst other things). Should we deny him the vote?

I’ve learnt about politics mainly from reading Machiavelli “The Prince” and Gibbons “Decline and fall of the Roman Empire”. With extra input from Lao Tzu “Tao Te Ching”, Heinlein “The moon is a harsh mistress”, and Adams “The restaurant at the end of the universe”, together with TV shows about democracy in Ancient Greece, about Starlin, and from personal observation.

So excuse me for being somewhat cynical about the value of politics.

Inspired by Trump, Reagan, Nixon, Hoover, various Australian politicians, and Dungeons and Dragons.

Trump gets a 0.

dv said:

mollwollfumble said:

> Moll is an example of an eminently intelligent fellow with some strange ideas about politics (amongst other things). Should we deny him the vote?

I’ve learnt about politics mainly from reading Machiavelli “The Prince” and Gibbons “Decline and fall of the Roman Empire”. With extra input from Lao Tzu “Tao Te Ching”, Heinlein “The moon is a harsh mistress”, and Adams “The restaurant at the end of the universe”, together with TV shows about democracy in Ancient Greece, about Starlin, and from personal observation.

So excuse me for being somewhat cynical about the value of politics.

Inspired by Trump, Reagan, Nixon, Hoover, various Australian politicians, and Dungeons and Dragons.

Trump gets a 0.

The US President tells a number of prominent Democratic Congresswomen to go back to the “totally broken and crime-infested places from which they came”, despite them all being American citizens and all but one being born in the US.

roughbarked said:

dv said:

mollwollfumble said:

> Moll is an example of an eminently intelligent fellow with some strange ideas about politics (amongst other things). Should we deny him the vote?

I’ve learnt about politics mainly from reading Machiavelli “The Prince” and Gibbons “Decline and fall of the Roman Empire”. With extra input from Lao Tzu “Tao Te Ching”, Heinlein “The moon is a harsh mistress”, and Adams “The restaurant at the end of the universe”, together with TV shows about democracy in Ancient Greece, about Starlin, and from personal observation.

So excuse me for being somewhat cynical about the value of politics.

Inspired by Trump, Reagan, Nixon, Hoover, various Australian politicians, and Dungeons and Dragons.

Trump gets a 0.

The US President tells a number of prominent Democratic Congresswomen to go back to the “totally broken and crime-infested places from which they came”, despite them all being American citizens and all but one being born in the US.

Unintelligent, foolish, makes most people feel like the want to die, pissweak, clumsy, comically lethargic

roughbarked said:

The US President tells a number of prominent Democratic Congresswomen to go back to the “totally broken and crime-infested places from which they came”, despite them all being American citizens and all but one being born in the US.

So, ‘intelligent’ gets eliminated from the list of choices.

captain_spalding said:

roughbarked said:

The US President tells a number of prominent Democratic Congresswomen to go back to the “totally broken and crime-infested places from which they came”, despite them all being American citizens and all but one being born in the US.

So, ‘intelligent’ gets eliminated from the list of choices.

Maybe he meant Detroit.

Tamb said:

captain_spalding said:

roughbarked said:

The US President tells a number of prominent Democratic Congresswomen to go back to the “totally broken and crime-infested places from which they came”, despite them all being American citizens and all but one being born in the US.

So, ‘intelligent’ gets eliminated from the list of choices.

Maybe he meant Detroit.

Maybe he just meant the U.S. in general.

dv said:

mollwollfumble said:

> Moll is an example of an eminently intelligent fellow with some strange ideas about politics (amongst other things). Should we deny him the vote?

I’ve learnt about politics mainly from reading Machiavelli “The Prince” and Gibbons “Decline and fall of the Roman Empire”. With extra input from Lao Tzu “Tao Te Ching”, Heinlein “The moon is a harsh mistress”, and Adams “The restaurant at the end of the universe”, together with TV shows about democracy in Ancient Greece, about Starlin, and from personal observation.

So excuse me for being somewhat cynical about the value of politics.

Inspired by Trump, Reagan, Nixon, Hoover, various Australian politicians, and Dungeons and Dragons.

Trump gets a 0.

Obviously not, since he got almost half the votes in the last US presidential election.

Trump is highly charismatic to a large group of people; nowhere near a majority, but not sufficiently uncharismatic with a sufficiently large proportion of the rest that he can get almost half votes.

He is also extremely dextrous at manipulating the people who matter (to him) to allow him to achieve his self-promotional aims.

It’s just unfortunate that those two characteristics by themselves do not a great leader make.

Also a leadership characteristic left off the list is empathy with people the leader represents.

mollwollfumble said:

Bubblecar said:

Trump, Brexit, Scomo. Trump. And as may well be, Trump again.

What went wrong? And should we still bother, or is there some other way?

Remind me to post a good scientist cartoon that i made up a few days ago that you haven’t seen yet.

Any yes, i have a weird view of politics. I still don’t see why we need it at all. I’m starting to think about an alternative that i hadn’t seriously considered before. To whit, conduct interviews to select a prime minister or president. Have to submit a resume in advance. Anyone can apply.

That’s what happens here in effect.

The interview committee is chosen by popular vote though.

The Rev Dodgson said:

mollwollfumble said:

Bubblecar said:

Trump, Brexit, Scomo. Trump. And as may well be, Trump again.

What went wrong? And should we still bother, or is there some other way?

Remind me to post a good scientist cartoon that i made up a few days ago that you haven’t seen yet.

Any yes, i have a weird view of politics. I still don’t see why we need it at all. I’m starting to think about an alternative that i hadn’t seriously considered before. To whit, conduct interviews to select a prime minister or president. Have to submit a resume in advance. Anyone can apply.

That’s what happens here in effect.

The interview committee is chosen by popular vote though.

The other half of it is that the leader who’s in place at the time of the popular vote is not necessarily going to continue to lead the party after that vote.

The party can easily depose him/her, and replace that person with one whose lack of appeal to the electorate would have guaranteed defeat at the poll.

Quite possibly the only reason that this hasn’t happened here since the last election is that the most likely replacement contender managed to most unexpectedly get ousted from his seat. Morrison probably still can’t quite believe that he’s still the PM.

Anyway, when I compare quality of life in countries with a democratic system with that in countries with non-democratic or pseudo-democratic systems, I find the idea of trying something else suddenly looks less attractive.

captain_spalding said:

Tamb said:

captain_spalding said:

So, ‘intelligent’ gets eliminated from the list of choices.

Maybe he meant Detroit.

Maybe he just meant the U.S. in general.

> Also a leadership characteristic left off the list is empathy with people the leader represents.

Excellent point. I hadn’t thought of that.

Democratic deconsolidation:

“The citizens of wealthy, established democracies are less satisfied with their governments than they have been at any time since opinion polling began. Most scholars have interpreted this as a sign of dissatisfaction with particular governments rather than with the political system as a whole. Drawing on recent public opinion data, we suggest that this optimistic interpretation is no longer plausible. Across a wide sample of countries in North America and Western Europe, citizens of mature democracies have become markedly less satisfied with their form of government and surprisingly open to nondemocratic alternatives. A serious democratic disconnect has emerged. If it widens even further, it may begin to challenge the stability of seemingly consolidated democracies….

“Over the last three decades, trust in political institutions such as parliaments or the courts has precipitously declined across the established democracies of North America and Western Europe. So has voter turnout. As party identification has weakened and party membership has declined, citizens have become less willing to stick with establishment parties. Instead, voters increasingly endorse single-issue movements, vote for populist candidates, or support “antisystem” parties that define themselves in opposition to the status quo. Even in some of the richest and most politically stable regions of the world, it seems as though democracy is in a state of serious disrepair.”

The Danger of Deconsolidation: The Democratic Disconnect

———————————————————————————————————————

“Political scientists have long agreed on one key assumption: that wealthy democracies such as the United Kingdom and the United States are here to stay. In the words of Alfred Stepan and Juan Linz, democracy had become the “only game in town.” Extreme parties got a very low share of the vote. Most citizens were deeply committed to democratic values. They rejected authoritarian alternatives out of hand.

“The rapid rise of populist parties in Western Europe and the US suggests that this may no longer be the case. The list in the past years has grown increasingly longer: The Five Star Movement in Italy, Front National in France, Podemos in Spain, the Sweden Democrats in Sweden, and the election of Donald Trump in the United States. In places that have historically been dominated by two major, moderate parties, populist candidates are garnering shocking levels of support.

“Public opinion polling points to an equally concerning trend: According to data collected by the World Values Survey (WVS) and European Values Survey (EVS), international public opinion polls which have been administered since 1981, people in countries across the world are becoming increasingly disillusioned with democracy. This is evident in indirect measures of democratic support, including the willingness of respondents to endorse alternatives to democracy like army rule or “a strong leader who doesn’t have to bother with parliaments or elections.” But it also expresses itself in direct criticism of democracy. In two thirds of the world’s developed democracies—including such countries as the United States, the United Kingdom, and the Netherlands—the percentage of respondents who find democracy to be a fairly bad or very bad system of government has significantly increased over the past decades. We can no longer assume that, once they are supposedly consolidated, democracies remain stable indefinitely.”

Understanding Democratic Deconsolidation

Witty Rejoinder said:

PermeateFree said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Teaching these skills would bring down the levels of domestic violence

Emotional Intelligence
Emotional control
How to cope with jealousy
How to cope with rejection
Relationship skills

Love to see you try in Bogon Central. :)

He has serious issues with the bogan next store.

Yes, she should be counselled in all those things.