Date: 27/10/2019 10:56:35
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1454167
Subject: Could we mine air?

I don’t mean as we do now, we already mine air for liquid oxygen, liquid nitrogen, argon and I think neon.

This is an idea from Sci-Fi where there’s talk of mining the deep atmosphere of a gas giant.

But let’s simplify it by talking about Earth. Suppose a lunar colony wants 10,000 tons of air. Could this be pumped, using a hybrid of oil mining technology and space elevator technology, from the Earth’s atmosphere up to geostationary orbit?

Replace the ribbon of a space elevator design with a tube. The bottom end doesn’t need to touch the Earth’s surface, or come anywhere near it. There are two types of pumps that could work together, a jet pump at the bottom draws a lot of air into the tube (similar to used in deep oil mining). The second is solar heating of the tube which makes the internal temperature higher than the external causing air to rise inside.

By geostationary orbit, the air has thinned enormously, and would be collected on a cold finger being cryogenically liquefied, or better, frozen. The freezing would cut the air pressure at geostationary to zero keeping the air flowing up from below.

It seems very iffy to me. As the air thins with altitude it accelerates to high Mach numbers, resulting in air molecules slamming into the cold finger at very high speeds. The speed would generate drag on the tube and this energy loss would have to be supplied elsewhere in the system, not just by thermal heating.

To keep the drag low, keep the airspeed low and therefore the mass transfer rate low. 10,000 tons of air in 10 years is 29 grams per second, which may be a low enough mass transfer rate. What do you think?

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Date: 27/10/2019 11:28:39
From: monkey skipper
ID: 1454177
Subject: re: Could we mine air?

mollwollfumble said:


I don’t mean as we do now, we already mine air for liquid oxygen, liquid nitrogen, argon and I think neon.

This is an idea from Sci-Fi where there’s talk of mining the deep atmosphere of a gas giant.

But let’s simplify it by talking about Earth. Suppose a lunar colony wants 10,000 tons of air. Could this be pumped, using a hybrid of oil mining technology and space elevator technology, from the Earth’s atmosphere up to geostationary orbit?

Replace the ribbon of a space elevator design with a tube. The bottom end doesn’t need to touch the Earth’s surface, or come anywhere near it. There are two types of pumps that could work together, a jet pump at the bottom draws a lot of air into the tube (similar to used in deep oil mining). The second is solar heating of the tube which makes the internal temperature higher than the external causing air to rise inside.

By geostationary orbit, the air has thinned enormously, and would be collected on a cold finger being cryogenically liquefied, or better, frozen. The freezing would cut the air pressure at geostationary to zero keeping the air flowing up from below.

It seems very iffy to me. As the air thins with altitude it accelerates to high Mach numbers, resulting in air molecules slamming into the cold finger at very high speeds. The speed would generate drag on the tube and this energy loss would have to be supplied elsewhere in the system, not just by thermal heating.

To keep the drag low, keep the airspeed low and therefore the mass transfer rate low. 10,000 tons of air in 10 years is 29 grams per second, which may be a low enough mass transfer rate. What do you think?

I watched a documentary about the huge volume of methane on a planet within earth’s solar system recently and while the methane could replace our earth energy resources’ needs many times over the viability of transporting the methane for use on earth simply wasn’t there.

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Date: 27/10/2019 11:31:27
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1454179
Subject: re: Could we mine air?

Before heating, the column of air inside the tube is in almost exactly the same state as the column outside the tube.

After heating, the centre of mass moves up the tube a bit, but by the time you get to geostationary orbit level surely it would still be almost a perfect vacuum?

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Date: 27/10/2019 11:32:16
From: monkey skipper
ID: 1454181
Subject: re: Could we mine air?

It was interesting to watch methane gas running like a water system over the planet though.

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Date: 27/10/2019 11:34:44
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1454184
Subject: re: Could we mine air?

The Rev Dodgson said:


Before heating, the column of air inside the tube is in almost exactly the same state as the column outside the tube.

After heating, the centre of mass moves up the tube a bit, but by the time you get to geostationary orbit level surely it would still be almost a perfect vacuum?

Ya. It has to be pushed up from below, can’t be sucked from above.

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Date: 27/10/2019 11:43:53
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1454197
Subject: re: Could we mine air?

monkey skipper said:


mollwollfumble said:

I don’t mean as we do now, we already mine air for liquid oxygen, liquid nitrogen, argon and I think neon.

This is an idea from Sci-Fi where there’s talk of mining the deep atmosphere of a gas giant.

But let’s simplify it by talking about Earth. Suppose a lunar colony wants 10,000 tons of air. Could this be pumped, using a hybrid of oil mining technology and space elevator technology, from the Earth’s atmosphere up to geostationary orbit?

Replace the ribbon of a space elevator design with a tube. The bottom end doesn’t need to touch the Earth’s surface, or come anywhere near it. There are two types of pumps that could work together, a jet pump at the bottom draws a lot of air into the tube (similar to used in deep oil mining). The second is solar heating of the tube which makes the internal temperature higher than the external causing air to rise inside.

By geostationary orbit, the air has thinned enormously, and would be collected on a cold finger being cryogenically liquefied, or better, frozen. The freezing would cut the air pressure at geostationary to zero keeping the air flowing up from below.

It seems very iffy to me. As the air thins with altitude it accelerates to high Mach numbers, resulting in air molecules slamming into the cold finger at very high speeds. The speed would generate drag on the tube and this energy loss would have to be supplied elsewhere in the system, not just by thermal heating.

To keep the drag low, keep the airspeed low and therefore the mass transfer rate low. 10,000 tons of air in 10 years is 29 grams per second, which may be a low enough mass transfer rate. What do you think?

I watched a documentary about the huge volume of methane on a planet within earth’s solar system recently and while the methane could replace our earth energy resources’ needs many times over the viability of transporting the methane for use on earth simply wasn’t there.

> It was interesting to watch methane gas running like a water system over the planet though.

Not sure which planet you’re talking about here?

Plenty of methane on Earth, already. So clearly not economically viable.

I have five levels of “impossible” that I use.

Everything can be politically impossible, so i don’t concern myself with that. Technically impossible is the one that i’m looking for here.

What concerns me here is whether mining ‘air’ by pumping it into space is technically possible or impossible. eg. if not from Earth then perhaps from Titan with its lower gravity and thicker atmosphere.

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Date: 27/10/2019 12:13:17
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1454211
Subject: re: Could we mine air?

mollwollfumble said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

Before heating, the column of air inside the tube is in almost exactly the same state as the column outside the tube.

After heating, the centre of mass moves up the tube a bit, but by the time you get to geostationary orbit level surely it would still be almost a perfect vacuum?

Ya. It has to be pushed up from below, can’t be sucked from above.

OK, there is no obvious problem pumping it up using an external energy source, other than the technical impossibilities of a continuous loaded tube up to geostationary orbit of course.

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Date: 27/10/2019 12:15:57
From: Spiny Norman
ID: 1454212
Subject: re: Could we mine air?

Couldn’t enough oxygen be extracted from the various ice deposits near the south pole of the Moon?

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Date: 27/10/2019 18:22:28
From: dv
ID: 1454286
Subject: re: Could we mine air?

I think almost anything would be better than this, even extracting oxygen from rocks.

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Date: 27/10/2019 18:28:27
From: sibeen
ID: 1454289
Subject: re: Could we mine air?

I think some of you should be reconsidering your stance on this. I have vivid memories of a thread on the SSSF called the Very Long Cylinder, or VLC for short, where it was comprehensively proved by the originating poster, whose name I have forgotten, that all you really need to do is put a cap on the top of the cylinder.

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Date: 27/10/2019 18:30:48
From: sibeen
ID: 1454290
Subject: re: Could we mine air?

sibeen said:


I think some of you should be reconsidering your stance on this. I have vivid memories of a thread on the SSSF called the Very Long Cylinder, or VLC for short, where it was comprehensively proved by the originating poster, whose name I have forgotten, that all you really need to do is put a cap on the top of the cylinder.

scaevola was the poster I think

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Date: 27/10/2019 20:27:27
From: dv
ID: 1454302
Subject: re: Could we mine air?

sibeen said:


I think some of you should be reconsidering your stance on this. I have vivid memories of a thread on the SSSF called the Very Long Cylinder, or VLC for short, where it was comprehensively proved by the originating poster, whose name I have forgotten, that all you really need to do is put a cap on the top of the cylinder.

I remember a thread of that kind, but the original poster had the wrong end of the stick completely.

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Date: 27/10/2019 22:27:26
From: sibeen
ID: 1454325
Subject: re: Could we mine air?

dv said:


sibeen said:

I think some of you should be reconsidering your stance on this. I have vivid memories of a thread on the SSSF called the Very Long Cylinder, or VLC for short, where it was comprehensively proved by the originating poster, whose name I have forgotten, that all you really need to do is put a cap on the top of the cylinder.

I remember a thread of that kind, but the original poster had the wrong end of the stick completely.

Are you sure?

scratches head

I thought he had overturned established science and convinced us all.

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Date: 28/10/2019 06:07:37
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1454349
Subject: re: Could we mine air?

sibeen said:


dv said:

sibeen said:

I think some of you should be reconsidering your stance on this. I have vivid memories of a thread on the SSSF called the Very Long Cylinder, or VLC for short, where it was comprehensively proved by the originating poster, whose name I have forgotten, that all you really need to do is put a cap on the top of the cylinder.

I remember a thread of that kind, but the original poster had the wrong end of the stick completely.

Are you sure?

scratches head

I thought he had overturned established science and convinced us all.

I definitely don’t remember the original. But my memory is imperfect, and this would have been back at a time when I was considering undersea desalination using the strategy that it requires less energy to pump 10 tons of fresh water from the sea to the land than pump 100 tons of salt water from the sea to the land.

mollwollfumble said:
The Rev Dodgson said:

> Before heating, the column of air inside the tube is in almost exactly the same state as the column outside the tube. After heating, the centre of mass moves up the tube a bit, but by the time you get to geostationary orbit level surely it would still be almost a perfect vacuum?

> Ya. It has to be pushed up from below, can’t be sucked from above.

> OK, there is no obvious problem pumping it up using an external energy source, other than the technical impossibilities of a continuous loaded tube up to geostationary orbit of course.

> Couldn’t enough oxygen be extracted from the various ice deposits near the south pole of the Moon?

> I think almost anything would be better than this, even extracting oxygen from rocks.

Agree with you all. Almost. Moon ice is too precious a resource to be used in this way, but yes, oxygen from rocks is the best strategy.

On the pure technical impossibility side, I’m beginning to think that a better strategy would be to dip the cold finger, cooler than 58 Kelvin, directly into the Earth’s upper atmosphere, some 80 to 90 km up where the atmosphere’s temperature is 200 Kelvin, and then when enough has been collected as solid haul it up then repeat. It can’t be collected as liquid because the pressure is so low that it would immediately evaporate.

This seems analogous to mining oil by freezing it subsurface and then lifting it on a conveyor belt – ridiculous – but it’s not a good analogy because liquid oil is less dense than the surrounding rocks whereas gaseous air is more dense than the surrounding vacuum.

> I watched a documentary about the huge volume of methane on a planet within earth’s solar system recently and while the methane could replace our earth energy resources’ needs many times over the viability of transporting the methane for use on earth simply wasn’t there.

Hold on! Transporting the methane to Earth is ridiculous. But transporting it to the Moon or Mars would make much more economic sense. Methane is food, or rather, it’s easily converted into food. Take the Moon for example, oxygen is easily extracted from rock but both hydrogen and carbon are rare. Yes I know there is some of both, a little ice and a little carbon in rocks, but both are very precious resources. To me it makes sense to transport methane, not water, to the Moon and Mars because hydrogen is rare in both places but oxygen is common as rock.

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Date: 28/10/2019 08:14:57
From: Michael V
ID: 1454369
Subject: re: Could we mine air?

>>>>>>>> Agree with you all. Almost. Moon ice is too precious a resource to be used in this way, but yes, oxygen from rocks is the best strategy.

I’m interested in how you might extract oxygen from rocks. Sure, it’s relatively abundant, but it’s generally very tightly bound. (Clays, illite and sericite etc – not so much, but these minerals are formed in very watery environments.)

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Date: 28/10/2019 10:05:08
From: dv
ID: 1454408
Subject: re: Could we mine air?

Michael V said:


>>>>>>>> Agree with you all. Almost. Moon ice is too precious a resource to be used in this way, but yes, oxygen from rocks is the best strategy.

I’m interested in how you might extract oxygen from rocks. Sure, it’s relatively abundant, but it’s generally very tightly bound. (Clays, illite and sericite etc – not so much, but these minerals are formed in very watery environments.)

Here’s an example
https://phys.org/news/2009-08-scientists-oxygen-moon.html

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Date: 28/10/2019 10:49:35
From: Michael V
ID: 1454423
Subject: re: Could we mine air?

dv said:


Michael V said:

>>>>>>>> Agree with you all. Almost. Moon ice is too precious a resource to be used in this way, but yes, oxygen from rocks is the best strategy.

I’m interested in how you might extract oxygen from rocks. Sure, it’s relatively abundant, but it’s generally very tightly bound. (Clays, illite and sericite etc – not so much, but these minerals are formed in very watery environments.)

Here’s an example
https://phys.org/news/2009-08-scientists-oxygen-moon.html

Ta. As expected, very energy intensive.

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Date: 28/10/2019 11:17:57
From: dv
ID: 1454431
Subject: re: Could we mine air?

Michael V said:


dv said:

Michael V said:

>>>>>>>> Agree with you all. Almost. Moon ice is too precious a resource to be used in this way, but yes, oxygen from rocks is the best strategy.

I’m interested in how you might extract oxygen from rocks. Sure, it’s relatively abundant, but it’s generally very tightly bound. (Clays, illite and sericite etc – not so much, but these minerals are formed in very watery environments.)

Here’s an example
https://phys.org/news/2009-08-scientists-oxygen-moon.html

Ta. As expected, very energy intensive.

But perhaps not as intensive as trying to ship it from Earth…

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Date: 28/10/2019 13:03:22
From: Michael V
ID: 1454455
Subject: re: Could we mine air?

dv said:


Michael V said:

dv said:

Here’s an example
https://phys.org/news/2009-08-scientists-oxygen-moon.html

Ta. As expected, very energy intensive.

But perhaps not as intensive as trying to ship it from Earth…

Yeah, OK.

:)

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Date: 28/10/2019 21:51:29
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1454621
Subject: re: Could we mine air?

dv said:


Michael V said:

>>>>>>>> Agree with you all. Almost. Moon ice is too precious a resource to be used in this way, but yes, oxygen from rocks is the best strategy.

I’m interested in how you might extract oxygen from rocks. Sure, it’s relatively abundant, but it’s generally very tightly bound. (Clays, illite and sericite etc – not so much, but these minerals are formed in very watery environments.)

Here’s an example
https://phys.org/news/2009-08-scientists-oxygen-moon.html

Good link. Thanks.

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