I saw an Alpine Dingo when investigating rare plants in the Victorian High Country. There you have these herb fields of grass and wildflowers from the size of a football pitch to a medium sized park. I was on the treed rocky ground that surround these herbfields so out of sight, when this very handsome dingo came gliding across the park sized area and visible for over a minute. Very healthy looking animal with a long, rich chestnut brown coat. Unfortunately these beautiful dogs are breeding with domestic ones and so are increasingly becoming rarer.

I’m not a zoologist.

This is a recent paper on the topic of dingos where the lead author has relevant credentials.

The Wayward Dog: Is the Australian native dog or Dingo a distinct species?
https://biotaxa.org/Zootaxa/article/view/zootaxa.4317.2.1

The key part of the abstract:

The recent proposal for Canis dingo as the most appropriate name is not sustainable under zoological nomenclature protocols nor based on the genetic and morphological evidence.

The main facts are:

Dingos diverged from domestic dogs 10000 to 15000 years ago. This is extremely recent. They are a close subspecies. Domestic dogs, grey wolves, dingos, Himalayan wolves are all subspecies of Canis lupus, but domestic dogs and dingos are much closer to each other than they are to grey wolves or Himalayan wolves etc.

Papers have been published recently by various scientists either indirectly or not-at-all connected to taxonomy, making the case that the dingo is a separate species. On inspection these rely on criteria not generally used in taxonomy. The lead author is Bradley Smith (a dog psychologist) and the secondary authors are ecologists. I suspect that the motivation is political: having a dingo listed as an endangered species rather than subspecies ups the stakes and may make it easier to get support for conservation.

dv said:

I’m not a zoologist.

This is a recent paper on the topic of dingos where the lead author has relevant credentials.

The Wayward Dog: Is the Australian native dog or Dingo a distinct species?
https://biotaxa.org/Zootaxa/article/view/zootaxa.4317.2.1

The key part of the abstract:

The recent proposal for Canis dingo as the most appropriate name is not sustainable under zoological nomenclature protocols nor based on the genetic and morphological evidence.

The main facts are:

Dingos diverged from domestic dogs 10000 to 15000 years ago. This is extremely recent. They are a close subspecies. Domestic dogs, grey wolves, dingos, Himalayan wolves are all subspecies of Canis lupus, but domestic dogs and dingos are much closer to each other than they are to grey wolves or Himalayan wolves etc.

Papers have been published recently by various scientists either indirectly or not-at-all connected to taxonomy, making the case that the dingo is a separate species. On inspection these rely on criteria not generally used in taxonomy. The lead author is Bradley Smith (a dog psychologist) and the secondary authors are ecologists. I suspect that the motivation is political: having a dingo listed as an endangered species rather than subspecies ups the stakes and may make it easier to get support for conservation.

Sounds reasonable.

What is a dog psychologist?

buffy said:

What is a dog psychologist?

Quack.

buffy said:

What is a dog psychologist?

A psychologist for dogs.

buffy said:

What is a dog psychologist?

Someone like Barry Dawson I’d imagine.

buffy said:

What is a dog psychologist?

an animal behaviourist who specialise in dogs.

>>These golden or reddish-colored canids may live alone (especially young males) or in packs of up to ten animals. They roam great distances and communicate with wolf-like howls.

Dingo hunting is opportunistic. Animals hunt alone or in cooperative packs. They pursue small game such as rabbits, rodents, birds, and lizards. These dogs will eat fruits and plants as well. They also scavenge from humans, particularly in their Asian range.

Dingoes breed only once a year. Females typically give birth to about five pups, which are not independent until six to eight months of age. In packs, a dominant breeding female will kill the offspring of other females.<<

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/mammals/d/dingo/

PermeateFree said:

I saw an Alpine Dingo when investigating rare plants in the Victorian High Country. There you have these herb fields of grass and wildflowers from the size of a football pitch to a medium sized park. I was on the treed rocky ground that surround these herbfields so out of sight, when this very handsome dingo came gliding across the park sized area and visible for over a minute. Very healthy looking animal with a long, rich chestnut brown coat. Unfortunately these beautiful dogs are breeding with domestic ones and so are increasingly becoming rarer.

Zoology Department at UNE when I was there (1980s) was breeding long haired dingos. They reckoned (back then) that they were a New England variety.

In WA it used to be illegal to own german shepherds because they were afeared they would mate with dingos and produce a super sheep killer.

Michael V said:

PermeateFree said:

I saw an Alpine Dingo when investigating rare plants in the Victorian High Country. There you have these herb fields of grass and wildflowers from the size of a football pitch to a medium sized park. I was on the treed rocky ground that surround these herbfields so out of sight, when this very handsome dingo came gliding across the park sized area and visible for over a minute. Very healthy looking animal with a long, rich chestnut brown coat. Unfortunately these beautiful dogs are breeding with domestic ones and so are increasingly becoming rarer.

Zoology Department at UNE when I was there (1980s) was breeding long haired dingos. They reckoned (back then) that they were a New England variety.

Being an Alpine animal, like other species living there, they tend to grow longer, thicker coats.

Peak Warming Man said:

In WA it used to be illegal to own german shepherds because they were afeared they would mate with dingos and produce a super sheep killer.

Lots of Dingo haters in country districts. However, if the pack was left intact it would be strongly controlled by the alpha male and female, who would govern their activities, and what they hunt like roos, wallabies and small animals. When you remove the alpha male and female, the adolescence dogs will break away and cause a great deal of trouble, including killing sheep. You would also have fewer feral predators like cats and foxes, so wildlife generally will do better and permit their other prey animals to survive. The Dingo is much maligned.

Peak Warming Man said:

In WA it used to be illegal to own german shepherds because they were afeared they would mate with dingos and produce a super sheep killer.

Ahh! I see, a superior race of dogs.

gaghalfrunt said:

Peak Warming Man said:

In WA it used to be illegal to own german shepherds because they were afeared they would mate with dingos and produce a super sheep killer.

Ahh! I see, a superior race of dogs.

They tried that with Aborigines.

> Dingos diverged from domestic dogs 10000 to 15000 years ago. This is extremely recent. They are a close subspecies. Domestic dogs, grey wolves, dingos, Himalayan wolves are all subspecies of Canis lupus, but domestic dogs and dingos are much closer to each other than they are to grey wolves or Himalayan wolves etc.

PS. mollwollfumle is still of the opinion that grey wolves evolved from dogs and not the other way around. Grey wolves were just a subspecies of dog that was undomesticatable. Dogs evolved earlier into many subspecies:

• Hairy small mountain subspecies of Asia like the Pekingese and Lhasa Apso.
• Thin sleek runners of North Africa like the greyhound.
• Bulky heavy short-nosed subspecies in Europe like the mastiff and molossus.
• Pariah dogs of the tropics like the dingo and basenji.
• Wolf-like subspecies like the grey wolf and spitz (though the spitz is probably a later interbreeding).

I’m basing this on mt-DNA evidence. I eagerly await whole-genome analysis of different dog and wolf subspecies for confirmation or contradiction. There is insufficient fossil evidence to decide one way or the other.

PS. mollwollfumle is still of the opinion that grey wolves evolved from dogs and not the other way around. Grey wolves were just a subspecies of dog that was undomesticatable

Partly that is a matter of semantics. What I would say is that grey wolves and domestic dogs have a common ancestor (which was neither the modern grey wolf nor the modern domestic dog).

dv said:

PS. mollwollfumle is still of the opinion that grey wolves evolved from dogs and not the other way around. Grey wolves were just a subspecies of dog that was undomesticatable

Partly that is a matter of semantics. What I would say is that grey wolves and domestic dogs have a common ancestor (which was neither the modern grey wolf nor the modern domestic dog).

That is kind of the standard response in any evolutionary argument; they must have had a common ancestor.

sarahs mum said:

HOLY CRAP!
Doesn’t anybody recognize The Billy Bush bus incident?

mollwollfumble said:

> Dingos diverged from domestic dogs 10000 to 15000 years ago. This is extremely recent. They are a close subspecies. Domestic dogs, grey wolves, dingos, Himalayan wolves are all subspecies of Canis lupus, but domestic dogs and dingos are much closer to each other than they are to grey wolves or Himalayan wolves etc.

PS. mollwollfumle is still of the opinion that grey wolves evolved from dogs and not the other way around. Grey wolves were just a subspecies of dog that was undomesticatable. Dogs evolved earlier into many subspecies:

• Hairy small mountain subspecies of Asia like the Pekingese and Lhasa Apso.
• Thin sleek runners of North Africa like the greyhound.
• Bulky heavy short-nosed subspecies in Europe like the mastiff and molossus.
• Pariah dogs of the tropics like the dingo and basenji.
• Wolf-like subspecies like the grey wolf and spitz (though the spitz is probably a later interbreeding).

I’m basing this on mt-DNA evidence. I eagerly await whole-genome analysis of different dog and wolf subspecies for confirmation or contradiction. There is insufficient fossil evidence to decide one way or the other.

Hang on, hang on….where are we going to put the shorthaired puggy oriental ones?

party_pants said:

dv said:

PS. mollwollfumle is still of the opinion that grey wolves evolved from dogs and not the other way around. Grey wolves were just a subspecies of dog that was undomesticatable

Partly that is a matter of semantics. What I would say is that grey wolves and domestic dogs have a common ancestor (which was neither the modern grey wolf nor the modern domestic dog).

That is kind of the standard response in any evolutionary argument; they must have had a common ancestor.

Well right.

I mean more specifically we can say they had a common ancestor that everything we now count as C. lupus lived between 200000 and 300000 years ago based on mt and y DNA. Grey wolves, dingos, domestic dogs, Himalayan wolves etc are subspecies and although “grey wolf” is the “type specimen” and clade-namer, it would be a mistake to think this meant that there were animals exactly like grey wolves 250000 years ago and all of the other stuff “evolved from” grey wolves while the grey wolves stayed the same.

buffy said:

mollwollfumble said:

> Dingos diverged from domestic dogs 10000 to 15000 years ago. This is extremely recent. They are a close subspecies. Domestic dogs, grey wolves, dingos, Himalayan wolves are all subspecies of Canis lupus, but domestic dogs and dingos are much closer to each other than they are to grey wolves or Himalayan wolves etc.

PS. mollwollfumle is still of the opinion that grey wolves evolved from dogs and not the other way around. Grey wolves were just a subspecies of dog that was undomesticatable. Dogs evolved earlier into many subspecies:

• Hairy small mountain subspecies of Asia like the Pekingese and Lhasa Apso.
• Thin sleek runners of North Africa like the greyhound.
• Bulky heavy short-nosed subspecies in Europe like the mastiff and molossus.
• Pariah dogs of the tropics like the dingo and basenji.
• Wolf-like subspecies like the grey wolf and spitz (though the spitz is probably a later interbreeding).

I’m basing this on mt-DNA evidence. I eagerly await whole-genome analysis of different dog and wolf subspecies for confirmation or contradiction. There is insufficient fossil evidence to decide one way or the other.

Hang on, hang on….where are we going to put the shorthaired puggy oriental ones?

Little known fact, the black pug originated in the jungle

kryten said:

buffy said:

mollwollfumble said:

> Dingos diverged from domestic dogs 10000 to 15000 years ago. This is extremely recent. They are a close subspecies. Domestic dogs, grey wolves, dingos, Himalayan wolves are all subspecies of Canis lupus, but domestic dogs and dingos are much closer to each other than they are to grey wolves or Himalayan wolves etc.

PS. mollwollfumle is still of the opinion that grey wolves evolved from dogs and not the other way around. Grey wolves were just a subspecies of dog that was undomesticatable. Dogs evolved earlier into many subspecies:

• Hairy small mountain subspecies of Asia like the Pekingese and Lhasa Apso.
• Thin sleek runners of North Africa like the greyhound.
• Bulky heavy short-nosed subspecies in Europe like the mastiff and molossus.
• Pariah dogs of the tropics like the dingo and basenji.
• Wolf-like subspecies like the grey wolf and spitz (though the spitz is probably a later interbreeding).

I’m basing this on mt-DNA evidence. I eagerly await whole-genome analysis of different dog and wolf subspecies for confirmation or contradiction. There is insufficient fossil evidence to decide one way or the other.

Hang on, hang on….where are we going to put the shorthaired puggy oriental ones?

Little known fact, the black pug originated in the jungle

This is an allusion to my discovery about half an hour ago of a Jungle Pug peering at me from amongst the rather tall weeds I was pulling out in the veggie patch. Here is one I caught in the wild at the bush one time:

The one I found today is older, and greyer than that specimen. I should get out of this thread.

mollwollfumble said:

> Dingos diverged from domestic dogs 10000 to 15000 years ago. This is extremely recent. They are a close subspecies. Domestic dogs, grey wolves, dingos, Himalayan wolves are all subspecies of Canis lupus, but domestic dogs and dingos are much closer to each other than they are to grey wolves or Himalayan wolves etc.

PS. mollwollfumle is still of the opinion that grey wolves evolved from dogs and not the other way around. Grey wolves were just a subspecies of dog that was undomesticatable. Dogs evolved earlier into many subspecies:

• Hairy small mountain subspecies of Asia like the Pekingese and Lhasa Apso.
• Thin sleek runners of North Africa like the greyhound.
• Bulky heavy short-nosed subspecies in Europe like the mastiff and molossus.
• Pariah dogs of the tropics like the dingo and basenji.
• Wolf-like subspecies like the grey wolf and spitz (though the spitz is probably a later interbreeding).

I’m basing this on mt-DNA evidence. I eagerly await whole-genome analysis of different dog and wolf subspecies for confirmation or contradiction. There is insufficient fossil evidence to decide one way or the other.

Hold on folks, there is some recent whole genome analysis of dogs from april & may this year that I haven’t seen yet.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-09373-w

“Domestic dog breeds are characterized by an unrivaled diversity of morphologic traits and breed-associated behaviors resulting from human selective pressures. To identify the genetic underpinnings of such traits, we analyze 722 canine whole genome sequences (WGS), documenting over 91 million single nucleotide and small indels, creating a large catalog of genomic variation for a companion animal species. We undertake both selective sweep analyses and genome wide association studies (GWAS) inclusive of over 144 modern breeds, 54 wild canids and a hundred village dogs. Our results identify variants of strong impact associated with 16 phenotypes.”

Nothing in the abstract about timing or evolutionary origins. Nup. Not a single word in the paper about evolution, the paper only maps phenotype onto genotype, without considering inheritance of either.

So I’m still waiting.

buffy said:

mollwollfumble said:

> Dingos diverged from domestic dogs 10000 to 15000 years ago. This is extremely recent. They are a close subspecies. Domestic dogs, grey wolves, dingos, Himalayan wolves are all subspecies of Canis lupus, but domestic dogs and dingos are much closer to each other than they are to grey wolves or Himalayan wolves etc.

PS. mollwollfumle is still of the opinion that grey wolves evolved from dogs and not the other way around. Grey wolves were just a subspecies of dog that was undomesticatable. Dogs evolved earlier into many subspecies:

• Hairy small mountain subspecies of Asia like the Pekingese and Lhasa Apso.
• Thin sleek runners of North Africa like the greyhound.
• Bulky heavy short-nosed subspecies in Europe like the mastiff and molossus.
• Pariah dogs of the tropics like the dingo and basenji.
• Wolf-like subspecies like the grey wolf and spitz (though the spitz is probably a later interbreeding).

I’m basing this on mt-DNA evidence. I eagerly await whole-genome analysis of different dog and wolf subspecies for confirmation or contradiction. There is insufficient fossil evidence to decide one way or the other.

Hang on, hang on….where are we going to put the shorthaired puggy oriental ones?

Bulldog is a mastiff variant. Pug is either derived from that alone (dwarfism) or more likely by interbreeding with some mountain oriental breed.

Pugs actually go back a long way, to the Han dynasty, a couple of thousand years ago.

https://dogtime.com/dog-breeds/pug#/slide/1

Boxers, and a lot of the others, are much more recent kids on the block.

This thread has gone to the dogs. Totally crazy!

PermeateFree said:

This thread has gone to the dogs. Totally crazy!

Nothing new here, move on.

Silly MeI thought Sarah’s Mum was making a joke
therefore wasn’t taking the thread seriously (oops-duh)

sarahs mum said:

Trump: “Yeah that’s her with the gold.
I better use some Tic Tacs just in case I start kissing her.
You know I’m automatically attracted to beautiful…
I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait.
And when you’re a star they let you do it. You can do anything.”

Bush: “Whatever you want.”

Trump: “Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything.”

Ogmog said:

Silly MeI thought Sarah’s Mum was making a joke
therefore wasn’t taking the thread seriously (oops-duh)

sarahs mum said:

Trump: “Yeah that’s her with the gold.
I better use some Tic Tacs just in case I start kissing her.
You know I’m automatically attracted to beautiful…
I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait.
And when you’re a star they let you do it. You can do anything.”

Bush: “Whatever you want.”

Trump: “Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything.”

The dingo chat had quite taken off in the Trump thread.
I tried to link. I did it clumsily.

mist it entirely
due to personal matters
…sorry ‘bout ‘dat…

buffy said:

Pugs actually go back a long way, to the Han dynasty, a couple of thousand years ago.

https://dogtime.com/dog-breeds/pug#/slide/1

Boxers, and a lot of the others, are much more recent kids on the block.

Didn’t know that. In that case a cross between a European dog (bulldog probably) and an Asian small dog such as a Pekinese.

Trade along the silk route between Asia and Europe goes back long before Marco Polo. For example, Christianity had spread to China before Islam became popular in the Middle East.

mollwollfumble said:

buffy said:

Pugs actually go back a long way, to the Han dynasty, a couple of thousand years ago.

https://dogtime.com/dog-breeds/pug#/slide/1

Boxers, and a lot of the others, are much more recent kids on the block.

Didn’t know that. In that case a cross between a European dog (bulldog probably) and an Asian small dog such as a Pekinese.

Trade along the silk route between Asia and Europe goes back long before Marco Polo. For example, Christianity had spread to China before Islam became popular in the Middle East.

Bulldogs didn’t happen until the 1600s.

There are Tibetan mastiffs, of very long lineage.
https://www.dogsnsw.org.au/Breeds/browse-all-breeds/168/Tibetan-Mastiff/

Dogs in China have been being bred for a very long time.

http://www.sixthtone.com/news/1001742/7%2C000-years-of-the-dog-a-history-of-chinas-canine-companions

mollwollfumble said:

buffy said:

Pugs actually go back a long way, to the Han dynasty, a couple of thousand years ago.

https://dogtime.com/dog-breeds/pug#/slide/1

Boxers, and a lot of the others, are much more recent kids on the block.

Didn’t know that. In that case a cross between a European dog (bulldog probably) and an Asian small dog such as a Pekinese.

Trade along the silk route between Asia and Europe goes back long before Marco Polo. For example, Christianity had spread to China before Islam became popular in the Middle East.

So why do people make a big deal about Marco Polo then? Just because he wrote about it?

I have a theory that many arch bridges in early Renaissance Italy owe more to Chinese heritage than Roman, but I haven’t seen much written on the subject, one way or the other.

The Rev Dodgson said:

mollwollfumble said:

buffy said:

Pugs actually go back a long way, to the Han dynasty, a couple of thousand years ago.

https://dogtime.com/dog-breeds/pug#/slide/1

Boxers, and a lot of the others, are much more recent kids on the block.

Didn’t know that. In that case a cross between a European dog (bulldog probably) and an Asian small dog such as a Pekinese.

Trade along the silk route between Asia and Europe goes back long before Marco Polo. For example, Christianity had spread to China before Islam became popular in the Middle East.

So why do people make a big deal about Marco Polo then? Just because he wrote about it?

I have a theory that many arch bridges in early Renaissance Italy owe more to Chinese heritage than Roman, but I haven’t seen much written on the subject, one way or the other.

Marco Polo probably never got there either. He never once mentions Chinese writing even though it is so fundamentally different from western alphabets.

The Rev Dodgson said:

mollwollfumble said:

buffy said:

Pugs actually go back a long way, to the Han dynasty, a couple of thousand years ago.

https://dogtime.com/dog-breeds/pug#/slide/1

Boxers, and a lot of the others, are much more recent kids on the block.

Didn’t know that. In that case a cross between a European dog (bulldog probably) and an Asian small dog such as a Pekinese.

Trade along the silk route between Asia and Europe goes back long before Marco Polo. For example, Christianity had spread to China before Islam became popular in the Middle East.

So why do people make a big deal about Marco Polo then? Just because he wrote about it?

I have a theory that many arch bridges in early Renaissance Italy owe more to Chinese heritage than Roman, but I haven’t seen much written on the subject, one way or the other.

You could write about it though.
Just use “might” “maybe” “could have” “possibly” a lot.
That sort of writing is everywhere now.

Peak Warming Man said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

mollwollfumble said:

Didn’t know that. In that case a cross between a European dog (bulldog probably) and an Asian small dog such as a Pekinese.

Trade along the silk route between Asia and Europe goes back long before Marco Polo. For example, Christianity had spread to China before Islam became popular in the Middle East.

So why do people make a big deal about Marco Polo then? Just because he wrote about it?

I have a theory that many arch bridges in early Renaissance Italy owe more to Chinese heritage than Roman, but I haven’t seen much written on the subject, one way or the other.

You could write about it though.
Just use “might” “maybe” “could have” “possibly” a lot.
That sort of writing is everywhere now.

That approach could have possibilities. Maybe I might follow it.

Witty Rejoinder said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

mollwollfumble said:

Didn’t know that. In that case a cross between a European dog (bulldog probably) and an Asian small dog such as a Pekinese.

Trade along the silk route between Asia and Europe goes back long before Marco Polo. For example, Christianity had spread to China before Islam became popular in the Middle East.

So why do people make a big deal about Marco Polo then? Just because he wrote about it?

I have a theory that many arch bridges in early Renaissance Italy owe more to Chinese heritage than Roman, but I haven’t seen much written on the subject, one way or the other.

Marco Polo probably never got there either. He never once mentions Chinese writing even though it is so fundamentally different from western alphabets.

Maybe he made it up or he might have only met illiterate people or possibly only reached Mongolia.

Peak Warming Man said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

So why do people make a big deal about Marco Polo then? Just because he wrote about it?

I have a theory that many arch bridges in early Renaissance Italy owe more to Chinese heritage than Roman, but I haven’t seen much written on the subject, one way or the other.

Marco Polo probably never got there either. He never once mentions Chinese writing even though it is so fundamentally different from western alphabets.

Maybe he made it up or he might have only met illiterate people or possibly only reached Mongolia.

Does he mention Mongolian script.

Tamb said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

Marco Polo probably never got there either. He never once mentions Chinese writing even though it is so fundamentally different from western alphabets.

Maybe he made it up or he might have only met illiterate people or possibly only reached Mongolia.

Does he mention Mongolian script.

Possibly.

Peak Warming Man said:

Tamb said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Maybe he made it up or he might have only met illiterate people or possibly only reached Mongolia.

Does he mention Mongolian script.

Possibly.

When I was in Mongolia I asked a local the meaning of some writing. She replied that there are three scripts in Mongolia & she couldn’t read that one.

> So why do people make a big deal about Marco Polo then? Just because he wrote about it?

Yes. First to write about it. And people really did make a great deal about it – it was a sensation throughout Europe for many hundreds of years. Being in jail on his return he had plenty of free time to complete the write-up.

His uncles Nicolo and Matteo used to travel the route without him at first. They were teaching him the trade. Marco Polo met lots of Chinese Christians on his travel, as far from the middle east as Indonesia. So it wasn’t just goods that made the journey before Marco Polo, it was people as well. The Christianisation of the East occurred primarily between 1000 AD and 1250 AD. Going further back, the ancient Greeks and Romans travelled at least as far east as Mumbai, and would have taken their European dogs with them. European people inhabited western China (Tarim basin) before the Han dynasty rule of that area. Pliny the Elder (died 79 AD) mentioned contact with the producers of silk at the other end of the silk route, the travel there was probably the other way around, from China to Europe.

I gather that Marco Polo was able to write so much because he had so little to do, keeping track of the inventory, his uncles handling all the money. Earlier travellers had enough to worry about what with being robbed and difficult negotiations to have spare time to write about it. In addition, the even earlier travellers didn’t travel the whole route – they would travel some 200 miles or km then trade their goods with the next carrier taking their profit – multiple mark-ups for each time the goods change hands. Dogs would count as goods so would travel the whole distance even before people could do it safely.

It was the policy of short heavily-patrolled short-haul carrier routes over land that caused the Portuguese to throw up their hands in 1512 and take the sea route, cutting out all the middle-men of the silk route.

All we know about the pug breed of dog is that it came from China before the year 1572. Isn’t that right? Long after Marco Polo and the Han dynasty.

mollwollfumble said:

> So why do people make a big deal about Marco Polo then? Just because he wrote about it?

Yes. First to write about it. And people really did make a great deal about it – it was a sensation throughout Europe for many hundreds of years. Being in jail on his return he had plenty of free time to complete the write-up.

His uncles Nicolo and Matteo used to travel the route without him at first. They were teaching him the trade. Marco Polo met lots of Chinese Christians on his travel, as far from the middle east as Indonesia. So it wasn’t just goods that made the journey before Marco Polo, it was people as well. The Christianisation of the East occurred primarily between 1000 AD and 1250 AD. Going further back, the ancient Greeks and Romans travelled at least as far east as Mumbai, and would have taken their European dogs with them. European people inhabited western China (Tarim basin) before the Han dynasty rule of that area. Pliny the Elder (died 79 AD) mentioned contact with the producers of silk at the other end of the silk route, the travel there was probably the other way around, from China to Europe.

I gather that Marco Polo was able to write so much because he had so little to do, keeping track of the inventory, his uncles handling all the money. Earlier travellers had enough to worry about what with being robbed and difficult negotiations to have spare time to write about it. In addition, the even earlier travellers didn’t travel the whole route – they would travel some 200 miles or km then trade their goods with the next carrier taking their profit – multiple mark-ups for each time the goods change hands. Dogs would count as goods so would travel the whole distance even before people could do it safely.

It was the policy of short heavily-patrolled short-haul carrier routes over land that caused the Portuguese to throw up their hands in 1512 and take the sea route, cutting out all the middle-men of the silk route.

All we know about the pug breed of dog is that it came from China before the year 1572. Isn’t that right? Long after Marco Polo and the Han dynasty.

He also was one of the few who did the entire silk route etc. Normally the goods were carried by a series of merchants along the route.

There is very little documentary evidence besides his own writings that MP got anywhere near China. For example there is no mention of his high office in the Chinese archives.

Witty Rejoinder said:

There is very little documentary evidence besides his own writings that MP got anywhere near China. For example there is no mention of his high office in the Chinese archives.

That’s an interesting one.

I’m aware that people nowdays doubt everything he said about Malaysia and Indonesia. It’s very likely that he never got near either place, relying instead on his hearing of travellers accounts. But my understanding is that he did get to visit the core of power in Eastern China in Beijing.

mollwollfumble said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

There is very little documentary evidence besides his own writings that MP got anywhere near China. For example there is no mention of his high office in the Chinese archives.

That’s an interesting one.

I’m aware that people nowdays doubt everything he said about Malaysia and Indonesia. It’s very likely that he never got near either place, relying instead on his hearing of travellers accounts. But my understanding is that he did get to visit the core of power in Eastern China in Beijing.

But did he bring back any dingoes?

roughbarked said:

mollwollfumble said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

There is very little documentary evidence besides his own writings that MP got anywhere near China. For example there is no mention of his high office in the Chinese archives.

That’s an interesting one.

I’m aware that people nowdays doubt everything he said about Malaysia and Indonesia. It’s very likely that he never got near either place, relying instead on his hearing of travellers accounts. But my understanding is that he did get to visit the core of power in Eastern China in Beijing.

But did he bring back any dingoes?

We’re following buffy here. Did he bring back any pugs?

http://hoaxes.org/archive/permalink/the_travels_of_marco_polo

mollwollfumble said:

roughbarked said:

mollwollfumble said:

That’s an interesting one.

I’m aware that people nowdays doubt everything he said about Malaysia and Indonesia. It’s very likely that he never got near either place, relying instead on his hearing of travellers accounts. But my understanding is that he did get to visit the core of power in Eastern China in Beijing.

But did he bring back any dingoes?

We’re following buffy here. Did he bring back any pugs?

pugs then. ;)

I am aware that there are competing views among historians regarding the extent of Marco Polo’s travels but I am not in a position to assess these claims.

Speaking of travels … how did this thread get to Marco Polo?

roughbarked said:

mollwollfumble said:

roughbarked said:

But did he bring back any dingoes?

We’re following buffy here. Did he bring back any pugs?

pugs then. ;)

The net seems to think that Pugs arrived in Europe in the 16th century. Marco was the 13th.

dv said:

I am aware that there are competing views among historians regarding the extent of Marco Polo’s travels but I am not in a position to assess these claims.

That’s not the forum way…

dv said:

Speaking of travels … how did this thread get to Marco Polo?

Dingo -> Pug -> China -> Marco Polo

Polo was named after Marco Polo because he brought back stories of Mongolians playing it with the head of an enemy.

Peak Warming Man said:

Polo was named after Marco Polo because he brought back stories of Mongolians playing it with the head of an enemy.

1872, Anglo-Indian polo, from Balti (Tibetan language of the Indus valley) polo “ball,” related to Tibetan pulu “ball.”

But the Polo Mint was named after him because there were holes in his story

dv said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Polo was named after Marco Polo because he brought back stories of Mongolians playing it with the head of an enemy.

1872, Anglo-Indian polo, from Balti (Tibetan language of the Indus valley) polo “ball,” related to Tibetan pulu “ball.”

But the Polo Mint was named after him because there were holes in his story

Heads are too hard, heavy & inelastic to use as a polo ball. Pigsticking perhaps.

dv said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Polo was named after Marco Polo because he brought back stories of Mongolians playing it with the head of an enemy.

1872, Anglo-Indian polo, from Balti (Tibetan language of the Indus valley) polo “ball,” related to Tibetan pulu “ball.”

But the Polo Mint was named after him because there were holes in his story

That could be another explanation of polo origins I guess.

Tamb said:

dv said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Polo was named after Marco Polo because he brought back stories of Mongolians playing it with the head of an enemy.

1872, Anglo-Indian polo, from Balti (Tibetan language of the Indus valley) polo “ball,” related to Tibetan pulu “ball.”

But the Polo Mint was named after him because there were holes in his story

Heads are too hard, heavy & inelastic to use as a polo ball. Pigsticking perhaps.

Maybe Polo thought it was a head, maybe it was a pug.

Peak Warming Man said:

Tamb said:

dv said:

1872, Anglo-Indian polo, from Balti (Tibetan language of the Indus valley) polo “ball,” related to Tibetan pulu “ball.”

But the Polo Mint was named after him because there were holes in his story

Heads are too hard, heavy & inelastic to use as a polo ball. Pigsticking perhaps.

Maybe Polo thought it was a head, maybe it was a pug.

A puggle is a baby echidna so that’s proof he visited Australia.

If Marco Polo travelled the route he claimed to travel, he may indeed have encountered some very dingoish dogs in South East Asia

Interestingly, my boss at the Chinese Restaurant I worked at as a late teenager told me that Cantonese for mad dog is pronounced “dingo”.

It seems this is true.

http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/dictionary/words/39069/

dv said:

If Marco Polo travelled the route he claimed to travel, he may indeed have encountered some very dingoish dogs in South East Asia

Like Bangkok’s street dogs: basking akimbo, sunning their balls since time immemoriam

Tamb said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Tamb said:

Heads are too hard, heavy & inelastic to use as a polo ball. Pigsticking perhaps.

Maybe Polo thought it was a head, maybe it was a pug.

A puggle is a baby echidna so that’s proof he visited Australia.

:) Nobody had devised the name puggle for the echidna at the time he was here.

roughbarked said:

Tamb said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Maybe Polo thought it was a head, maybe it was a pug.

A puggle is a baby echidna so that’s proof he visited Australia.

:) Nobody had devised the name puggle for the echidna at the time he was here.

Unless it is of aboriginal origin.

Witty Rejoinder said:

dv said:

Speaking of travels … how did this thread get to Marco Polo?

Dingo -> Pug -> China -> Marco Polo

From http://www.oldest.org/animals/dog-breeds/

“The following list contains 8 of the oldest extant popular dog breeds in the world. The relationship between humans and dogs is believed to have first formed between 18,800 and 32,100 years ago”

8. Chow Chow. Northern China. Year: 150 – 200 B.C.
7. Shar Pei. China. Year: 206 B.C.
6. Saluki. Egypt. Year: 329 B.C.
5. Samoyed. Siberia. Year: 1000 B.C.
4. Malamute. Northern Alaska. Year: 1000 B.C.
3. Afghan Hound. Afghanistan. Year: 6000 B.C.
2. Basenji. African Congo. Year: 6000 B.C.
1. Matagi-Inu. Japan. Year: 8000 B.C.

So is buffy claiming that the Pug is a Shar Pei?
And is mollwollfumble claiming that dingo is akin to Basenji?

“The earliest known dingo fossil, found in Western Australia, dates to 3,450 years ago … discovered to be between 3348 and 3081 years old in the 1960s.”

From wikipedia. This isn’t what I think happened. I’d like to see proof of this, eg. I suspect that Indian wolf and dingo are related. Difficult to prove because of interbreeding between all of these.

mollwollfumble said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

dv said:

Speaking of travels … how did this thread get to Marco Polo?

Dingo -> Pug -> China -> Marco Polo

From http://www.oldest.org/animals/dog-breeds/

“The following list contains 8 of the oldest extant popular dog breeds in the world. The relationship between humans and dogs is believed to have first formed between 18,800 and 32,100 years ago”

8. Chow Chow. Northern China. Year: 150 – 200 B.C.
7. Shar Pei. China. Year: 206 B.C.
6. Saluki. Egypt. Year: 329 B.C.
5. Samoyed. Siberia. Year: 1000 B.C.
4. Malamute. Northern Alaska. Year: 1000 B.C.
3. Afghan Hound. Afghanistan. Year: 6000 B.C.
2. Basenji. African Congo. Year: 6000 B.C.
1. Matagi-Inu. Japan. Year: 8000 B.C.

So is buffy claiming that the Pug is a Shar Pei?
And is mollwollfumble claiming that dingo is akin to Basenji?

“The earliest known dingo fossil, found in Western Australia, dates to 3,450 years ago … discovered to be between 3348 and 3081 years old in the 1960s.”

From wikipedia. This isn’t what I think happened. I’d like to see proof of this, eg. I suspect that Indian wolf and dingo are related. Difficult to prove because of interbreeding between all of these.

> claiming that dingo is akin to Basenji
Neither bark.

Tamb said:

mollwollfumble said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

Dingo -> Pug -> China -> Marco Polo

From http://www.oldest.org/animals/dog-breeds/

“The following list contains 8 of the oldest extant popular dog breeds in the world. The relationship between humans and dogs is believed to have first formed between 18,800 and 32,100 years ago”

8. Chow Chow. Northern China. Year: 150 – 200 B.C.
7. Shar Pei. China. Year: 206 B.C.
6. Saluki. Egypt. Year: 329 B.C.
5. Samoyed. Siberia. Year: 1000 B.C.
4. Malamute. Northern Alaska. Year: 1000 B.C.
3. Afghan Hound. Afghanistan. Year: 6000 B.C.
2. Basenji. African Congo. Year: 6000 B.C.
1. Matagi-Inu. Japan. Year: 8000 B.C.

So is buffy claiming that the Pug is a Shar Pei?
And is mollwollfumble claiming that dingo is akin to Basenji?

“The earliest known dingo fossil, found in Western Australia, dates to 3,450 years ago … discovered to be between 3348 and 3081 years old in the 1960s.”

From wikipedia. This isn’t what I think happened. I’d like to see proof of this, eg. I suspect that Indian wolf and dingo are related. Difficult to prove because of interbreeding between all of these.

> claiming that dingo is akin to Basenji
Neither bark.

Exactly, yes, and neither does the Indian Wolf.

All three in their purest least-interbred form are also yellow, which is a rare dog colour elsewhere. And short-hairs.

eg. Indian wolf. Tell me it doesn’t look at least a bit like a dingo.

mollwollfumble said:

Tamb said:

mollwollfumble said:

From http://www.oldest.org/animals/dog-breeds/

“The following list contains 8 of the oldest extant popular dog breeds in the world. The relationship between humans and dogs is believed to have first formed between 18,800 and 32,100 years ago”

8. Chow Chow. Northern China. Year: 150 – 200 B.C.
7. Shar Pei. China. Year: 206 B.C.
6. Saluki. Egypt. Year: 329 B.C.
5. Samoyed. Siberia. Year: 1000 B.C.
4. Malamute. Northern Alaska. Year: 1000 B.C.
3. Afghan Hound. Afghanistan. Year: 6000 B.C.
2. Basenji. African Congo. Year: 6000 B.C.
1. Matagi-Inu. Japan. Year: 8000 B.C.

So is buffy claiming that the Pug is a Shar Pei?
And is mollwollfumble claiming that dingo is akin to Basenji?

“The earliest known dingo fossil, found in Western Australia, dates to 3,450 years ago … discovered to be between 3348 and 3081 years old in the 1960s.”

From wikipedia. This isn’t what I think happened. I’d like to see proof of this, eg. I suspect that Indian wolf and dingo are related. Difficult to prove because of interbreeding between all of these.

> claiming that dingo is akin to Basenji
Neither bark.

Exactly, yes, and neither does the Indian Wolf.

All three in their purest least-interbred form are also yellow, which is a rare dog colour elsewhere. And short-hairs.

eg. Indian wolf. Tell me it doesn’t look at least a bit like a dingo.

Bigger image of Indian wolf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_wolf#/media/File:Wolf_Islamabad_Pakistan.jpg

Dingo

OK, got out my oldfashioned book instead of Googling. “The Encyclopedia of the Dog” by Dr Bruce Fogle. Apparently a Canadian vet, with training at the London Zoo and “well known internationally for his expertise in animal behaviour.

PUG: Miniaturized from mastiffs in the Far East at least 2,400 years ago, the Pug’s ancestors were once companions of Buddhist priests. Introduced into Holland in the 1500s via the Dutch East India Company, this dog then became the companion of aristocrats and kings.

SHAR PEI: A long-time resident of China’s southern province of Guangdong, the Shar Pei appears to be descended from mastiff and spitz-type dogs. It is a fairly close relative of the Chow Chow. Driven almost to extinction by China’s prohibition of dogs on the mainland, the breed was rescued by Matgo Law, a Hong Kong breeder.

My comment…Pugs were bred as companion dogs. Shar Pei’s were bred for dog fighting.

>>Miniaturized from mastiffs

Come on Buffy, you’re talking to us now.

Peak Warming Man said:

>>Miniaturized from mastiffs

Come on Buffy, you’re talking to us now.

Easy, just cut the legs down and do some bonsai training on the tail.

Peak Warming Man said:

>>Miniaturized from mastiffs

Come on Buffy, you’re talking to us now.

Yeah, I know. Must have taken a few generations, right? I mean…look now big a Tibetan mastiff is…

Ask me about another breed. This book has got lots I’ve never heard of.

Let’s see what it says about the Dingo. But bearing in mind this book was written in 1995.

DINGO: The Dingo is a breed that has never been fully domesticated. This is partly due to its remote isolation, but also through lack of human intervention. It does not have the same degree of tooth crowding and shortening of the jaw that distinguish other dog breeds from their ancestor, the Indian Plains Wolf. Also, like the wolf, the female Dingo has only one breeding cycle each year.

Breed history: The Dingo arrived in Australia about 4,000 years ago, and its arrival coincided with the decline of the indigenous carnivorous marsupial, the thylacine, on mainland Australia.

Comments: All purebred Dingos have white hair on feet Intense eyes vary from yellow to orange in colour Typical coat colour is yellow-ginger, but can occur in black or white Tail is relaxed and has good length Very mobile ears are naturally erect Hindquarters are lean and muscular

Date of origin: antiquity
Other names: Maliki, Warrigal, Noggum, Mirigung, Boolomo

buffy said:

Let’s see what it says about the Dingo. But bearing in mind this book was written in 1995.

DINGO: The Dingo is a breed that has never been fully domesticated. This is partly due to its remote isolation, but also through lack of human intervention. It does not have the same degree of tooth crowding and shortening of the jaw that distinguish other dog breeds from their ancestor, the Indian Plains Wolf. Also, like the wolf, the female Dingo has only one breeding cycle each year.

Breed history: The Dingo arrived in Australia about 4,000 years ago, and its arrival coincided with the decline of the indigenous carnivorous marsupial, the thylacine, on mainland Australia.

Comments: All purebred Dingos have white hair on feet Intense eyes vary from yellow to orange in colour Typical coat colour is yellow-ginger, but can occur in black or white Tail is relaxed and has good length Very mobile ears are naturally erect Hindquarters are lean and muscular

Date of origin: antiquity
Other names: Maliki, Warrigal, Noggum, Mirigung, Boolomo

Ta, there wouldn’t be too many pure breads left I wouldn’t imagine.

I, for one, prefer the name Noggum to Dingo.

“A noggum’s got my baaaaaaaby.”

PermeateFree said:

Peak Warming Man said:

>>Miniaturized from mastiffs

Come on Buffy, you’re talking to us now.

Easy, just cut the legs down and do some bonsai training on the tail.

LOL

buffy said:

OK, got out my oldfashioned book instead of Googling. “The Encyclopedia of the Dog” by Dr Bruce Fogle. Apparently a Canadian vet, with training at the London Zoo and “well known internationally for his expertise in animal behaviour.

PUG: Miniaturized from mastiffs in the Far East at least 2,400 years ago, the Pug’s ancestors were once companions of Buddhist priests. Introduced into Holland in the 1500s via the Dutch East India Company, this dog then became the companion of aristocrats and kings.

SHAR PEI: A long-time resident of China’s southern province of Guangdong, the Shar Pei appears to be descended from mastiff and spitz-type dogs. It is a fairly close relative of the Chow Chow. Driven almost to extinction by China’s prohibition of dogs on the mainland, the breed was rescued by Matgo Law, a Hong Kong breeder.

My comment…Pugs were bred as companion dogs. Shar Pei’s were bred for dog fighting.

> Driven almost to extinction by China’s prohibition of dogs on the mainland

I hadn’t heard about that. Good way to get rid of rabies, though.

Pug image

Shar Pei image

Lost Puppy Found in Australia Is Actually Rare Dingo, DNA Test Shows

>>Residents found Wandi in August near their home in the small town of Wandiligong in the state of Victoria in southeast Australia, report Ashlee Aldridge and Sandra Moon of the Australia Broadcasting Corporation (ABC). A family heard him crying and thought he might be a stray puppy or an orphaned fox pup. But after 24 hours, they took him to the Alpine Animal Hospital. Local veterinarian Bec Day told ABC that there hadn’t been any adult dingo calls in the area when the pup was found.

He also had marks on his back that made vets think he had been picked up by an eagle for a meal and dropped miles away from his family.<<

>>Alpine dingoes are one of three types of dingoes in Australia, and the only type that’s endangered. Eradication programs, hunting and inbreeding have all threatened the species’ survival, reports the Washington Post’s Kim Bellware. But now that he’s with the Australian Dingo Foundation, Wandi can one day become one of about 40 adults in their breeding program, reports CNN’s Ben Westcott.<<

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/lost-puppy-found-australia-actually-rare-dingo-dna-test-shows-180973473/

PermeateFree said:

Lost Puppy Found in Australia Is Actually Rare Dingo, DNA Test Shows

>>Residents found Wandi in August near their home in the small town of Wandiligong in the state of Victoria in southeast Australia, report Ashlee Aldridge and Sandra Moon of the Australia Broadcasting Corporation (ABC). A family heard him crying and thought he might be a stray puppy or an orphaned fox pup. But after 24 hours, they took him to the Alpine Animal Hospital. Local veterinarian Bec Day told ABC that there hadn’t been any adult dingo calls in the area when the pup was found.

He also had marks on his back that made vets think he had been picked up by an eagle for a meal and dropped miles away from his family.<<

>>Alpine dingoes are one of three types of dingoes in Australia, and the only type that’s endangered. Eradication programs, hunting and inbreeding have all threatened the species’ survival, reports the Washington Post’s Kim Bellware. But now that he’s with the Australian Dingo Foundation, Wandi can one day become one of about 40 adults in their breeding program, reports CNN’s Ben Westcott.<<

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/lost-puppy-found-australia-actually-rare-dingo-dna-test-shows-180973473/

There was a story on the ABC site about this that started the whole thread. I started it in chat and sm opened this thread.

sibeen said:

PermeateFree said:

Lost Puppy Found in Australia Is Actually Rare Dingo, DNA Test Shows

>>Residents found Wandi in August near their home in the small town of Wandiligong in the state of Victoria in southeast Australia, report Ashlee Aldridge and Sandra Moon of the Australia Broadcasting Corporation (ABC). A family heard him crying and thought he might be a stray puppy or an orphaned fox pup. But after 24 hours, they took him to the Alpine Animal Hospital. Local veterinarian Bec Day told ABC that there hadn’t been any adult dingo calls in the area when the pup was found.

He also had marks on his back that made vets think he had been picked up by an eagle for a meal and dropped miles away from his family.<<

>>Alpine dingoes are one of three types of dingoes in Australia, and the only type that’s endangered. Eradication programs, hunting and inbreeding have all threatened the species’ survival, reports the Washington Post’s Kim Bellware. But now that he’s with the Australian Dingo Foundation, Wandi can one day become one of about 40 adults in their breeding program, reports CNN’s Ben Westcott.<<

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/lost-puppy-found-australia-actually-rare-dingo-dna-test-shows-180973473/

There was a story on the ABC site about this that started the whole thread. I started it in chat and sm opened this thread.

It was in the Donald Trump thread. Getting lost.

sarahs mum said:

sibeen said:

PermeateFree said:

Lost Puppy Found in Australia Is Actually Rare Dingo, DNA Test Shows

>>Residents found Wandi in August near their home in the small town of Wandiligong in the state of Victoria in southeast Australia, report Ashlee Aldridge and Sandra Moon of the Australia Broadcasting Corporation (ABC). A family heard him crying and thought he might be a stray puppy or an orphaned fox pup. But after 24 hours, they took him to the Alpine Animal Hospital. Local veterinarian Bec Day told ABC that there hadn’t been any adult dingo calls in the area when the pup was found.

He also had marks on his back that made vets think he had been picked up by an eagle for a meal and dropped miles away from his family.<<

>>Alpine dingoes are one of three types of dingoes in Australia, and the only type that’s endangered. Eradication programs, hunting and inbreeding have all threatened the species’ survival, reports the Washington Post’s Kim Bellware. But now that he’s with the Australian Dingo Foundation, Wandi can one day become one of about 40 adults in their breeding program, reports CNN’s Ben Westcott.<<

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/lost-puppy-found-australia-actually-rare-dingo-dna-test-shows-180973473/

There was a story on the ABC site about this that started the whole thread. I started it in chat and sm opened this thread.

It was in the Donald Trump thread. Getting lost.

All ends well then, it now being in the Dingo thread.