I’ve just been asked by my sister, a food technologist, “what do you know about aboriginal food technology, other than the eel traps?”
My reply, “um, not much”. Can you help?
A variety of sticks
mollwollfumble said:
I’ve just been asked by my sister, a food technologist, “what do you know about aboriginal food technology, other than the eel traps?”My reply, “um, not much”. Can you help?
In what way technology? Other than the traps themselves, there are trees where they smoked the eels for preservation. On the plains around Gariwerd (the Grampians) the soil was tilled as the yam daisies were harvested for a very long time, such that the first Europeans found a good tilth. The hard hoofed animals soon fixed that by tramping it down. I’ll get out Dawson’s book later for you and see what is in the food chapter that might be termed technology.
buffy said:
mollwollfumble said:
I’ve just been asked by my sister, a food technologist, “what do you know about aboriginal food technology, other than the eel traps?”My reply, “um, not much”. Can you help?
In what way technology? Other than the traps themselves, there are trees where they smoked the eels for preservation. On the plains around Gariwerd (the Grampians) the soil was tilled as the yam daisies were harvested for a very long time, such that the first Europeans found a good tilth. The hard hoofed animals soon fixed that by tramping it down. I’ll get out Dawson’s book later for you and see what is in the food chapter that might be termed technology.
https://www.ted.com/talks/rachel_botsman_the_currency_of_the_new_economy_is_trust/transcript?language=en
roughbarked said:
buffy said:
mollwollfumble said:
I’ve just been asked by my sister, a food technologist, “what do you know about aboriginal food technology, other than the eel traps?”My reply, “um, not much”. Can you help?
In what way technology? Other than the traps themselves, there are trees where they smoked the eels for preservation. On the plains around Gariwerd (the Grampians) the soil was tilled as the yam daisies were harvested for a very long time, such that the first Europeans found a good tilth. The hard hoofed animals soon fixed that by tramping it down. I’ll get out Dawson’s book later for you and see what is in the food chapter that might be termed technology.
https://www.ted.com/talks/rachel_botsman_the_currency_of_the_new_economy_is_trust/transcript?language=en
oops, didn’t snatch the copy properly. https://www.jstor.org/stable/4255419?seq=1
Aboriginal people did comprehend much about food technology in that they could eat foods that would poison others.
I also just became aware that this site exists. http://www.anbg.gov.au/apu/
Hang on, has she read Dark Emu? I read it when it first came out about 5 years ago, so I’m a bit hazy. It’s recently become quite the in thing to read it, I understand.
https://www.magabala.com/products/dark-emu
buffy said:
Hang on, has she read Dark Emu? I read it when it first came out about 5 years ago, so I’m a bit hazy. It’s recently become quite the in thing to read it, I understand.https://www.magabala.com/products/dark-emu
Yeah, Mrs rb has read it and I have yet to do so but as to Rachel Botsman, no idea.
There are a variety of seeds, tubers and other plant material that need special treatment to remove toxic components, and our First Nation People had developed various methods to do so. Cycad seed, black bean tree seeds, some of the wattles, a yam variety are some I can bring to mind. Bracken fern needs to be collected at the right stage to be edible (does that count as technology?)
How about Burke and Wills and nardoo. That story is worth looking at, as to aboriginal knowledge.
Morning punters and correctors, going to be a warm one make no mistake.
OK, I’ve got Mr Dawson’s book in front of me. Remember that this was written about the Aborigines of the Western District of Victoria, so is not general. I’ll pick out bits from Chapter IX “Cooking and Food”.
I’ll take “technology” in a very broad sense of meaning
There is a description of earth ovens, but that’s a pretty general thing in lots of places.
“When opossums are killed expressly for food, and not for the skin, the fur is plucked or singed off while the animal is still warm; The entrails are pullout out through an opening in the skin, stripped of their contents, and eaten raw, and their place stuffed with herbs; the body is then toasted and turned slowly before the fire without breaking the skin, and, if not immediately required for food, is set aside to cool. Opossums thus prepared will keep and may be carried about much better than if uncooked. In this way the natives make provision for travelling through country where food is scarce.”
“Eels are seldom eaten quite fresh; and, to i,part a high flavour to them, they are buried in the ground until slightly tainted, and then roasted.”
“The natives never touch putrid flesh, however, except that of the whale, which the Peek whuurong natives bury till quite rotten. They are aware of the danger of inoculation by dead animal matter and will not eat nay animal unless they know how it has lost its life. “
“..to prevent the flies from blowing the meat, it is hung in the smoke of the domestic fire”
“A kind of bread is made of the root of the common fern, roasted in hot ashes, and beaten into paste with a stone”
“The gum of the acacia, or common wattle tree, is largely consumed as food, as well as for cement; and each man has an exclusive right to a certain number of trees for the use of himself and family. As soon as the summer heat is over, notches are cut in the bark to allow the gum to exude. It is then gathered in large lumps, and stored for use.”
“When obliged to drink from muddy pools full of animalculae, they put a full blown cone of the banksia tree into their mouths, and drink through it, which gives a fine flavour to the water, and excludes impurities.”
buffy said:
OK, I’ve got Mr Dawson’s book in front of me. Remember that this was written about the Aborigines of the Western District of Victoria, so is not general. I’ll pick out bits from Chapter IX “Cooking and Food”.I’ll take “technology” in a very broad sense of meaning
There is a description of earth ovens, but that’s a pretty general thing in lots of places.
“When opossums are killed expressly for food, and not for the skin, the fur is plucked or singed off while the animal is still warm; The entrails are pullout out through an opening in the skin, stripped of their contents, and eaten raw, and their place stuffed with herbs; the body is then toasted and turned slowly before the fire without breaking the skin, and, if not immediately required for food, is set aside to cool. Opossums thus prepared will keep and may be carried about much better than if uncooked. In this way the natives make provision for travelling through country where food is scarce.”
“Eels are seldom eaten quite fresh; and, to i,part a high flavour to them, they are buried in the ground until slightly tainted, and then roasted.”
“The natives never touch putrid flesh, however, except that of the whale, which the Peek whuurong natives bury till quite rotten. They are aware of the danger of inoculation by dead animal matter and will not eat nay animal unless they know how it has lost its life. “
“..to prevent the flies from blowing the meat, it is hung in the smoke of the domestic fire”
“A kind of bread is made of the root of the common fern, roasted in hot ashes, and beaten into paste with a stone”
“The gum of the acacia, or common wattle tree, is largely consumed as food, as well as for cement; and each man has an exclusive right to a certain number of trees for the use of himself and family. As soon as the summer heat is over, notches are cut in the bark to allow the gum to exude. It is then gathered in large lumps, and stored for use.”
“When obliged to drink from muddy pools full of animalculae, they put a full blown cone of the banksia tree into their mouths, and drink through it, which gives a fine flavour to the water, and excludes impurities.”
Hang on, has she read Dark Emu? I read it when it first came out about 5 years ago, so I’m a bit hazy. It’s recently become quite the in thing to read it, I understand. https://www.magabala.com/products/dark-emu
She has read “Dark Emu” and really loved it. I don’t know a thing about it.
Dawson’s book? I didn’t know that existed, Excellent. “Australian aborigines” Book by James Dawson, 1881. I’ll recommend it.
ruby said:
There are a variety of seeds, tubers and other plant material that need special treatment to remove toxic components, and our First Nation People had developed various methods to do so. Cycad seed, black bean tree seeds, some of the wattles, a yam variety are some I can bring to mind. Bracken fern needs to be collected at the right stage to be edible (does that count as technology?)
How about Burke and Wills and nardoo. That story is worth looking at, as to aboriginal knowledge.
Thanks ruby. I remember reading about cycads, and the Burke and Wills nardoo. Buy I hadn’t heard of the others. Do you know how the aborigines made the nardoo and cycads (and others) non-toxic? By grinding, soaking in water for a long time and cooking, or was it more complicated than that?
Buffy’s information is fabulous. I’m going to write all of that down somewhere, it will be useful in the zombie apocalypse. The slow drying of the herb stuffed possum, that’s a beauty. As is the banksia cone straw.
You might like this article Moll, lots of interest in there. Including how much the Aboriginal people were willing to share their resources, which I have heard over and over (making the ensuing dispossession and massacres extra galling)-
http://burkeandwills.slv.vic.gov.au/ask-an-expert/did-burke-and-wills-die-because-they-ate-nardoo
ruby said:
Buffy’s information is fabulous. I’m going to write all of that down somewhere, it will be useful in the zombie apocalypse. The slow drying of the herb stuffed possum, that’s a beauty. As is the banksia cone straw.You might like this article Moll, lots of interest in there. Including how much the Aboriginal people were willing to share their resources, which I have heard over and over (making the ensuing dispossession and massacres extra galling)-
http://burkeandwills.slv.vic.gov.au/ask-an-expert/did-burke-and-wills-die-because-they-ate-nardoo
Dawson and his daughter learnt the local language and set about recording the information about the people. They were pretty amazing, considering. There is a picture of her here:
https://camperdownhistory.org.au/history/#Isabella%20Dawson%20with%20Aborigines,%20c1865
buffy said:
ruby said:
Buffy’s information is fabulous. I’m going to write all of that down somewhere, it will be useful in the zombie apocalypse. The slow drying of the herb stuffed possum, that’s a beauty. As is the banksia cone straw.You might like this article Moll, lots of interest in there. Including how much the Aboriginal people were willing to share their resources, which I have heard over and over (making the ensuing dispossession and massacres extra galling)-
http://burkeandwills.slv.vic.gov.au/ask-an-expert/did-burke-and-wills-die-because-they-ate-nardooDawson and his daughter learnt the local language and set about recording the information about the people. They were pretty amazing, considering. There is a picture of her here:
https://camperdownhistory.org.au/history/#Isabella%20Dawson%20with%20Aborigines,%20c1865
Thanks again, have forwarded the B&W website to my sister.
buffy said:
mollwollfumble said:
I’ve just been asked by my sister, a food technologist, “what do you know about aboriginal food technology, other than the eel traps?”My reply, “um, not much”. Can you help?
In what way technology? Other than the traps themselves, there are trees where they smoked the eels for preservation. On the plains around Gariwerd (the Grampians) the soil was tilled as the yam daisies were harvested for a very long time, such that the first Europeans found a good tilth. The hard hoofed animals soon fixed that by tramping it down. I’ll get out Dawson’s book later for you and see what is in the food chapter that might be termed technology.
The roots of the yam daisy was a popular food of Aborigines in areas where it grew. The tilled soil was highly UNlikely to be turned over for its cultivation, as that would destroy the developing crop. However the soil would be improved by the regular turning over of the soil as they dug for the roots. The Yam Daisy is also simulated by fire, so likely the region would have been burnt often. The seed is viable for only a few months, therefore the digging for the roots would have provided an ideal seedling bed for a new crop to grow. This type of farming is quite unlike the methods used by Europeans and is far more sensible as it does not involve unnecessary effort.
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:
mollwollfumble said:
I’ve just been asked by my sister, a food technologist, “what do you know about aboriginal food technology, other than the eel traps?”My reply, “um, not much”. Can you help?
In what way technology? Other than the traps themselves, there are trees where they smoked the eels for preservation. On the plains around Gariwerd (the Grampians) the soil was tilled as the yam daisies were harvested for a very long time, such that the first Europeans found a good tilth. The hard hoofed animals soon fixed that by tramping it down. I’ll get out Dawson’s book later for you and see what is in the food chapter that might be termed technology.
The roots of the yam daisy was a popular food of Aborigines in areas where it grew. The tilled soil was highly UNlikely to be turned over for its cultivation, as that would destroy the developing crop. However the soil would be improved by the regular turning over of the soil as they dug for the roots. The Yam Daisy is also simulated by fire, so likely the region would have been burnt often. The seed is viable for only a few months, therefore the digging for the roots would have provided an ideal seedling bed for a new crop to grow. This type of farming is quite unlike the methods used by Europeans and is far more sensible as it does not involve unnecessary effort.
Unnecessary effort or burning of fossil fuels and manufacture of giant machines to burn it in.
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:
mollwollfumble said:
I’ve just been asked by my sister, a food technologist, “what do you know about aboriginal food technology, other than the eel traps?”My reply, “um, not much”. Can you help?
In what way technology? Other than the traps themselves, there are trees where they smoked the eels for preservation. On the plains around Gariwerd (the Grampians) the soil was tilled as the yam daisies were harvested for a very long time, such that the first Europeans found a good tilth. The hard hoofed animals soon fixed that by tramping it down. I’ll get out Dawson’s book later for you and see what is in the food chapter that might be termed technology.
The roots of the yam daisy was a popular food of Aborigines in areas where it grew. The tilled soil was highly UNlikely to be turned over for its cultivation, as that would destroy the developing crop. However the soil would be improved by the regular turning over of the soil as they dug for the roots. The Yam Daisy is also simulated by fire, so likely the region would have been burnt often. The seed is viable for only a few months, therefore the digging for the roots would have provided an ideal seedling bed for a new crop to grow. This type of farming is quite unlike the methods used by Europeans and is far more sensible as it does not involve unnecessary effort.
I read somewhere that they buried their food waste? Was this widespread? Or just some peoples…
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:
mollwollfumble said:
I’ve just been asked by my sister, a food technologist, “what do you know about aboriginal food technology, other than the eel traps?”My reply, “um, not much”. Can you help?
In what way technology? Other than the traps themselves, there are trees where they smoked the eels for preservation. On the plains around Gariwerd (the Grampians) the soil was tilled as the yam daisies were harvested for a very long time, such that the first Europeans found a good tilth. The hard hoofed animals soon fixed that by tramping it down. I’ll get out Dawson’s book later for you and see what is in the food chapter that might be termed technology.
The roots of the yam daisy was a popular food of Aborigines in areas where it grew. The tilled soil was highly UNlikely to be turned over for its cultivation, as that would destroy the developing crop. However the soil would be improved by the regular turning over of the soil as they dug for the roots. The Yam Daisy is also simulated by fire, so likely the region would have been burnt often. The seed is viable for only a few months, therefore the digging for the roots would have provided an ideal seedling bed for a new crop to grow. This type of farming is quite unlike the methods used by Europeans and is far more sensible as it does not involve unnecessary effort.
My understanding from the information from Brambuk (Halls Gap cultural centre), is that when the harvesting was going on, the larger roots were taken and the smaller ones planted back, and doing this automatically tilled the soil. And also turned in the ash from the burns.
roughbarked said:
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:In what way technology? Other than the traps themselves, there are trees where they smoked the eels for preservation. On the plains around Gariwerd (the Grampians) the soil was tilled as the yam daisies were harvested for a very long time, such that the first Europeans found a good tilth. The hard hoofed animals soon fixed that by tramping it down. I’ll get out Dawson’s book later for you and see what is in the food chapter that might be termed technology.
The roots of the yam daisy was a popular food of Aborigines in areas where it grew. The tilled soil was highly UNlikely to be turned over for its cultivation, as that would destroy the developing crop. However the soil would be improved by the regular turning over of the soil as they dug for the roots. The Yam Daisy is also simulated by fire, so likely the region would have been burnt often. The seed is viable for only a few months, therefore the digging for the roots would have provided an ideal seedling bed for a new crop to grow. This type of farming is quite unlike the methods used by Europeans and is far more sensible as it does not involve unnecessary effort.
Unnecessary effort or burning of fossil fuels and manufacture of giant machines to burn it in.
For a much smaller population
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:
mollwollfumble said:
I’ve just been asked by my sister, a food technologist, “what do you know about aboriginal food technology, other than the eel traps?”My reply, “um, not much”. Can you help?
In what way technology? Other than the traps themselves, there are trees where they smoked the eels for preservation. On the plains around Gariwerd (the Grampians) the soil was tilled as the yam daisies were harvested for a very long time, such that the first Europeans found a good tilth. The hard hoofed animals soon fixed that by tramping it down. I’ll get out Dawson’s book later for you and see what is in the food chapter that might be termed technology.
The roots of the yam daisy was a popular food of Aborigines in areas where it grew. The tilled soil was highly UNlikely to be turned over for its cultivation, as that would destroy the developing crop. However the soil would be improved by the regular turning over of the soil as they dug for the roots. The Yam Daisy is also simulated by fire, so likely the region would have been burnt often. The seed is viable for only a few months, therefore the digging for the roots would have provided an ideal seedling bed for a new crop to grow. This type of farming is quite unlike the methods used by Europeans and is far more sensible as it does not involve unnecessary effort.
Coastal areas are very good at providing food for Europeans as well as Aborigines. The fruits of the native grape and pigface were very popular as were native spinach, roots and berries of various plants, etc. Grasstrees also provided a tasty starchy pith, orchid and lily tubers are also very tasty.
Cymek said:
roughbarked said:
PermeateFree said:The roots of the yam daisy was a popular food of Aborigines in areas where it grew. The tilled soil was highly UNlikely to be turned over for its cultivation, as that would destroy the developing crop. However the soil would be improved by the regular turning over of the soil as they dug for the roots. The Yam Daisy is also simulated by fire, so likely the region would have been burnt often. The seed is viable for only a few months, therefore the digging for the roots would have provided an ideal seedling bed for a new crop to grow. This type of farming is quite unlike the methods used by Europeans and is far more sensible as it does not involve unnecessary effort.
Unnecessary effort or burning of fossil fuels and manufacture of giant machines to burn it in.
For a much smaller population
PermeateFree said:
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:In what way technology? Other than the traps themselves, there are trees where they smoked the eels for preservation. On the plains around Gariwerd (the Grampians) the soil was tilled as the yam daisies were harvested for a very long time, such that the first Europeans found a good tilth. The hard hoofed animals soon fixed that by tramping it down. I’ll get out Dawson’s book later for you and see what is in the food chapter that might be termed technology.
The roots of the yam daisy was a popular food of Aborigines in areas where it grew. The tilled soil was highly UNlikely to be turned over for its cultivation, as that would destroy the developing crop. However the soil would be improved by the regular turning over of the soil as they dug for the roots. The Yam Daisy is also simulated by fire, so likely the region would have been burnt often. The seed is viable for only a few months, therefore the digging for the roots would have provided an ideal seedling bed for a new crop to grow. This type of farming is quite unlike the methods used by Europeans and is far more sensible as it does not involve unnecessary effort.
Coastal areas are very good at providing food for Europeans as well as Aborigines. The fruits of the native grape and pigface were very popular as were native spinach, roots and berries of various plants, etc. Grasstrees also provided a tasty starchy pith, orchid and lily tubers are also very tasty.
Thanks for that. I think the local council is spraying herbicide on the native spinach :-(
sarahs mum said:
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:In what way technology? Other than the traps themselves, there are trees where they smoked the eels for preservation. On the plains around Gariwerd (the Grampians) the soil was tilled as the yam daisies were harvested for a very long time, such that the first Europeans found a good tilth. The hard hoofed animals soon fixed that by tramping it down. I’ll get out Dawson’s book later for you and see what is in the food chapter that might be termed technology.
The roots of the yam daisy was a popular food of Aborigines in areas where it grew. The tilled soil was highly UNlikely to be turned over for its cultivation, as that would destroy the developing crop. However the soil would be improved by the regular turning over of the soil as they dug for the roots. The Yam Daisy is also simulated by fire, so likely the region would have been burnt often. The seed is viable for only a few months, therefore the digging for the roots would have provided an ideal seedling bed for a new crop to grow. This type of farming is quite unlike the methods used by Europeans and is far more sensible as it does not involve unnecessary effort.
I read somewhere that they buried their food waste? Was this widespread? Or just some peoples…
Aborigines did not do things unnecessarily, they were very economical with their time, so very much doubt it, although when cooking food underground they would use vegetable matter in the process and probably for extra flavoring.
buffy said:
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:In what way technology? Other than the traps themselves, there are trees where they smoked the eels for preservation. On the plains around Gariwerd (the Grampians) the soil was tilled as the yam daisies were harvested for a very long time, such that the first Europeans found a good tilth. The hard hoofed animals soon fixed that by tramping it down. I’ll get out Dawson’s book later for you and see what is in the food chapter that might be termed technology.
The roots of the yam daisy was a popular food of Aborigines in areas where it grew. The tilled soil was highly UNlikely to be turned over for its cultivation, as that would destroy the developing crop. However the soil would be improved by the regular turning over of the soil as they dug for the roots. The Yam Daisy is also simulated by fire, so likely the region would have been burnt often. The seed is viable for only a few months, therefore the digging for the roots would have provided an ideal seedling bed for a new crop to grow. This type of farming is quite unlike the methods used by Europeans and is far more sensible as it does not involve unnecessary effort.
My understanding from the information from Brambuk (Halls Gap cultural centre), is that when the harvesting was going on, the larger roots were taken and the smaller ones planted back, and doing this automatically tilled the soil. And also turned in the ash from the burns.
I would doubt if many of the smaller daisies would have survived this type of root disturbance, plus it was completely unnecessary. Ash from bushfires is very fine and would work its way into the soil, especially if it have been turned over regularly when extracting roots.
mollwollfumble said:
PermeateFree said:
PermeateFree said:The roots of the yam daisy was a popular food of Aborigines in areas where it grew. The tilled soil was highly UNlikely to be turned over for its cultivation, as that would destroy the developing crop. However the soil would be improved by the regular turning over of the soil as they dug for the roots. The Yam Daisy is also simulated by fire, so likely the region would have been burnt often. The seed is viable for only a few months, therefore the digging for the roots would have provided an ideal seedling bed for a new crop to grow. This type of farming is quite unlike the methods used by Europeans and is far more sensible as it does not involve unnecessary effort.
Coastal areas are very good at providing food for Europeans as well as Aborigines. The fruits of the native grape and pigface were very popular as were native spinach, roots and berries of various plants, etc. Grasstrees also provided a tasty starchy pith, orchid and lily tubers are also very tasty.
Thanks for that. I think the local council is spraying herbicide on the native spinach :-(
It can be very weedy by smothering other vegetation.
sarahs mum said:
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:In what way technology? Other than the traps themselves, there are trees where they smoked the eels for preservation. On the plains around Gariwerd (the Grampians) the soil was tilled as the yam daisies were harvested for a very long time, such that the first Europeans found a good tilth. The hard hoofed animals soon fixed that by tramping it down. I’ll get out Dawson’s book later for you and see what is in the food chapter that might be termed technology.
The roots of the yam daisy was a popular food of Aborigines in areas where it grew. The tilled soil was highly UNlikely to be turned over for its cultivation, as that would destroy the developing crop. However the soil would be improved by the regular turning over of the soil as they dug for the roots. The Yam Daisy is also simulated by fire, so likely the region would have been burnt often. The seed is viable for only a few months, therefore the digging for the roots would have provided an ideal seedling bed for a new crop to grow. This type of farming is quite unlike the methods used by Europeans and is far more sensible as it does not involve unnecessary effort.
I read somewhere that they buried their food waste? Was this widespread? Or just some peoples…
I haven’t heard of that. Seashells weren’t buried. I’ve only heard about burying food (waste) as a way of hiding it from theft, burying whale flesh, and for cooking in ovens.
Is there anyone here who can confirm (or refute) the claim that Aborigines ate seals?
A warning in advance. The following is meant to be amusing and shocking rather than accurate:
The aboriginal dietroughbarked said:
Cymek said:
roughbarked said:Unnecessary effort or burning of fossil fuels and manufacture of giant machines to burn it in.
For a much smaller population
Our larger population buries billions of dollars worth of unopened and uneaten fresh produce each year that we subsidise our farmers to rape the land to produce.
We don’t have to denigrate ourselves to elevate Aboriginal people you know, credit were its due they aren’t some superior race compared to the white man they used what worked
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:
PermeateFree said:The roots of the yam daisy was a popular food of Aborigines in areas where it grew. The tilled soil was highly UNlikely to be turned over for its cultivation, as that would destroy the developing crop. However the soil would be improved by the regular turning over of the soil as they dug for the roots. The Yam Daisy is also simulated by fire, so likely the region would have been burnt often. The seed is viable for only a few months, therefore the digging for the roots would have provided an ideal seedling bed for a new crop to grow. This type of farming is quite unlike the methods used by Europeans and is far more sensible as it does not involve unnecessary effort.
My understanding from the information from Brambuk (Halls Gap cultural centre), is that when the harvesting was going on, the larger roots were taken and the smaller ones planted back, and doing this automatically tilled the soil. And also turned in the ash from the burns.
I would doubt if many of the smaller daisies would have survived this type of root disturbance, plus it was completely unnecessary. Ash from bushfires is very fine and would work its way into the soil, especially if it have been turned over regularly when extracting roots.
And while we are discussing the way Aborigines lived, their houses were nothing like European or even PNG or the Islander’s housing. They were largely shelters designed for relatively short term use. Why people should think they would spend weeks building elaborate houses when they could make a good shelter in less than a day that would service them for several months if required. Then could then go off without concern to attend their other duties of looking after country. Aborigines were NOT sedentary!
“Armed with their digging sticks and baskets, each with a carrying capacity of up to 30kg, the Djab wurrung and Jarwadjali women and children gathered immense quantities of tuberous roots and edible food. One of the most important year-long food staples was the native yam daisy, or murnong. It’s dandelion like flowers once covered the grasslands in their millions.
Robinson describes the sight in 1841 of women “spread over the plain as far as I could see them…each had a load as much as she could carry”.
Over a period of years the women would dig over much of the plains country within their range to get at the sweet tasting, starch-rich clumps of murnong tubers.
If they were taking such vast quantities, why did murnong not become scarce? The answer is that the women only thinned the clumps of tubers. Moreover, the digging aerated the soil, incorporating litter and ash, thereby cultivating and fertilising the tubers of murnong and other edible orchid and lily species.
Early settlers remarked on the loosed and absorbent nature of the soil when they first arrived. But the sheep they brought with them not only dug out the shallow rooted murnong within 12 months; their hard hooves also compacted the cultivated soil of the Djab wurrung and the Djar wadjali.”
From:“The People of Gariwerd. The Grampians’ Aboriginal Heritage” by Gib Wettenhall. Aboriginal Affairs Victoria 1999.
Cymek said:
roughbarked said:
Cymek said:For a much smaller population
Our larger population buries billions of dollars worth of unopened and uneaten fresh produce each year that we subsidise our farmers to rape the land to produce.
We don’t have to denigrate ourselves to elevate Aboriginal people you know, credit were its due they aren’t some superior race compared to the white man they used what worked
Plus they developed their methods over thousands of years. The knowledge base and cultures of Aborigines and Europeans are totally different and are not comparable.
buffy said:
“Armed with their digging sticks and baskets, each with a carrying capacity of up to 30kg, the Djab wurrung and Jarwadjali women and children gathered immense quantities of tuberous roots and edible food. One of the most important year-long food staples was the native yam daisy, or murnong. It’s dandelion like flowers once covered the grasslands in their millions.
Robinson describes the sight in 1841 of women “spread over the plain as far as I could see them…each had a load as much as she could carry”.Over a period of years the women would dig over much of the plains country within their range to get at the sweet tasting, starch-rich clumps of murnong tubers.
If they were taking such vast quantities, why did murnong not become scarce? The answer is that the women only thinned the clumps of tubers. Moreover, the digging aerated the soil, incorporating litter and ash, thereby cultivating and fertilising the tubers of murnong and other edible orchid and lily species.
Early settlers remarked on the loosed and absorbent nature of the soil when they first arrived. But the sheep they brought with them not only dug out the shallow rooted murnong within 12 months; their hard hooves also compacted the cultivated soil of the Djab wurrung and the Djar wadjali.”
From:“The People of Gariwerd. The Grampians’ Aboriginal Heritage” by Gib Wettenhall. Aboriginal Affairs Victoria 1999.
That is what I have been saying. It is a very sensible and effortless way of producing food.
PermeateFree said:
Cymek said:
roughbarked said:Our larger population buries billions of dollars worth of unopened and uneaten fresh produce each year that we subsidise our farmers to rape the land to produce.
We don’t have to denigrate ourselves to elevate Aboriginal people you know, credit were its due they aren’t some superior race compared to the white man they used what worked
Plus they developed their methods over thousands of years. The knowledge base and cultures of Aborigines and Europeans are totally different and are not comparable.
True and Australia isn’t exactly the friendliest of places to live out in the wild, could die very easily.
Cymek said:
PermeateFree said:
Cymek said:We don’t have to denigrate ourselves to elevate Aboriginal people you know, credit were its due they aren’t some superior race compared to the white man they used what worked
Plus they developed their methods over thousands of years. The knowledge base and cultures of Aborigines and Europeans are totally different and are not comparable.
True and Australia isn’t exactly the friendliest of places to live out in the wild, could die very easily.
Or you could live very well if you had the knowledge and understanding. Europeans had neither.
Subsistence is hard slog no matter where you do it…
furious said:
- True and Australia isn’t exactly the friendliest of places to live out in the wild, could die very easily.
Subsistence is hard slog no matter where you do it…
Unlike us, you need to be fit and healthy.
furious said:
- True and Australia isn’t exactly the friendliest of places to live out in the wild, could die very easily.
Subsistence is hard slog no matter where you do it…
True, but I do wonder if Australia was so harsh most of the time was spent just surviving
PermeateFree said:
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:In what way technology? Other than the traps themselves, there are trees where they smoked the eels for preservation. On the plains around Gariwerd (the Grampians) the soil was tilled as the yam daisies were harvested for a very long time, such that the first Europeans found a good tilth. The hard hoofed animals soon fixed that by tramping it down. I’ll get out Dawson’s book later for you and see what is in the food chapter that might be termed technology.
The roots of the yam daisy was a popular food of Aborigines in areas where it grew. The tilled soil was highly UNlikely to be turned over for its cultivation, as that would destroy the developing crop. However the soil would be improved by the regular turning over of the soil as they dug for the roots. The Yam Daisy is also simulated by fire, so likely the region would have been burnt often. The seed is viable for only a few months, therefore the digging for the roots would have provided an ideal seedling bed for a new crop to grow. This type of farming is quite unlike the methods used by Europeans and is far more sensible as it does not involve unnecessary effort.
Coastal areas are very good at providing food for Europeans as well as Aborigines. The fruits of the native grape and pigface were very popular as were native spinach, roots and berries of various plants, etc. Grasstrees also provided a tasty starchy pith, orchid and lily tubers are also very tasty.
Does native spinach = Tetragonia tetragonoides?
Cymek said:
furious said:
- True and Australia isn’t exactly the friendliest of places to live out in the wild, could die very easily.
Subsistence is hard slog no matter where you do it…
True, but I do wonder if Australia was so harsh most of the time was spent just surviving
If you think our lifestyles are easier and happier, and the Aboriginals are the direct opposite then you need to get out more. True in the last 200 years we have often made their lives a complete misery and we should acknowledge that fact.
Michael V said:
PermeateFree said:
PermeateFree said:The roots of the yam daisy was a popular food of Aborigines in areas where it grew. The tilled soil was highly UNlikely to be turned over for its cultivation, as that would destroy the developing crop. However the soil would be improved by the regular turning over of the soil as they dug for the roots. The Yam Daisy is also simulated by fire, so likely the region would have been burnt often. The seed is viable for only a few months, therefore the digging for the roots would have provided an ideal seedling bed for a new crop to grow. This type of farming is quite unlike the methods used by Europeans and is far more sensible as it does not involve unnecessary effort.
Coastal areas are very good at providing food for Europeans as well as Aborigines. The fruits of the native grape and pigface were very popular as were native spinach, roots and berries of various plants, etc. Grasstrees also provided a tasty starchy pith, orchid and lily tubers are also very tasty.
Does native spinach = Tetragonia tetragonoides?
yes
Cymek said:
furious said:
- True and Australia isn’t exactly the friendliest of places to live out in the wild, could die very easily.
Subsistence is hard slog no matter where you do it…
True, but I do wonder if Australia was so harsh most of the time was spent just surviving
Why do certain peoples not go onto develop farming, villages, towns, science, etc is it all down to the harsh environment
It probably work out better in the long run as your way of life changes very little and so you can exist for thousands of years
Cymek said:
furious said:
- True and Australia isn’t exactly the friendliest of places to live out in the wild, could die very easily.
Subsistence is hard slog no matter where you do it…
True, but I do wonder if Australia was so harsh most of the time was spent just surviving
Australia is no harsher than most of the middle-east where civilisation first sprung forth. Whether you eat the agricultural product from floodplains or subsist in a hunter gatherer lifestyle it was all hard work. It must be noted though that settled agriculture often involved a less varied and less rich diet with consequences for nutrition. Only in the past 200 years has humanity caught up with stone age peoples in health stats like height.
Cymek said:
furious said:
- True and Australia isn’t exactly the friendliest of places to live out in the wild, could die very easily.
Subsistence is hard slog no matter where you do it…
True, but I do wonder if Australia was so harsh most of the time was spent just surviving
Well, some of it is harsh, a lot of it would have been downright bountiful…
PermeateFree said:
Cymek said:
furious said:
- True and Australia isn’t exactly the friendliest of places to live out in the wild, could die very easily.
Subsistence is hard slog no matter where you do it…
True, but I do wonder if Australia was so harsh most of the time was spent just surviving
If you think our lifestyles are easier and happier, and the Aboriginals are the direct opposite then you need to get out more. True in the last 200 years we have often made their lives a complete misery and we should acknowledge that fact.
Not happier, different.
Cymek said:
Cymek said:
furious said:
- True and Australia isn’t exactly the friendliest of places to live out in the wild, could die very easily.
Subsistence is hard slog no matter where you do it…
True, but I do wonder if Australia was so harsh most of the time was spent just surviving
Why do certain peoples not go onto develop farming, villages, towns, science, etc is it all down to the harsh environment
It probably work out better in the long run as your way of life changes very little and so you can exist for thousands of years
No use inventing the wheel in Australia. Kangaroos seem to dislike being hitched to a carriage.
OTOH if someone quotes Jarrod Diamond i will scream.
buffy said:
“Armed with their digging sticks and baskets, each with a carrying capacity of up to 30kg, the Djab wurrung and Jarwadjali women and children gathered immense quantities of tuberous roots and edible food. One of the most important year-long food staples was the native yam daisy, or murnong. It’s dandelion like flowers once covered the grasslands in their millions.
Robinson describes the sight in 1841 of women “spread over the plain as far as I could see them…each had a load as much as she could carry”.Over a period of years the women would dig over much of the plains country within their range to get at the sweet tasting, starch-rich clumps of murnong tubers.
If they were taking such vast quantities, why did murnong not become scarce? The answer is that the women only thinned the clumps of tubers. Moreover, the digging aerated the soil, incorporating litter and ash, thereby cultivating and fertilising the tubers of murnong and other edible orchid and lily species.
Early settlers remarked on the loosed and absorbent nature of the soil when they first arrived. But the sheep they brought with them not only dug out the shallow rooted murnong within 12 months; their hard hooves also compacted the cultivated soil of the Djab wurrung and the Djar wadjali.”
From:“The People of Gariwerd. The Grampians’ Aboriginal Heritage” by Gib Wettenhall. Aboriginal Affairs Victoria 1999.
Interesting, thanks.
Cymek said:
Cymek said:
furious said:
- True and Australia isn’t exactly the friendliest of places to live out in the wild, could die very easily.
Subsistence is hard slog no matter where you do it…
True, but I do wonder if Australia was so harsh most of the time was spent just surviving
Why do certain peoples not go onto develop farming, villages, towns, science, etc is it all down to the harsh environment
It probably work out better in the long run as your way of life changes very little and so you can exist for thousands of years
I think you need to look at European History! Wars, plagues, famine, slavery, etc., etc, and don’t forget children were recently working down mines and other very unhealthy and dangerous situations. And you think we have lived a better life. You must be F’ing mad!
PermeateFree said:
Michael V said:
PermeateFree said:Coastal areas are very good at providing food for Europeans as well as Aborigines. The fruits of the native grape and pigface were very popular as were native spinach, roots and berries of various plants, etc. Grasstrees also provided a tasty starchy pith, orchid and lily tubers are also very tasty.
Does native spinach = Tetragonia tetragonoides?
yes
Ta.
PermeateFree said:
Cymek said:
Cymek said:True, but I do wonder if Australia was so harsh most of the time was spent just surviving
Why do certain peoples not go onto develop farming, villages, towns, science, etc is it all down to the harsh environment
It probably work out better in the long run as your way of life changes very little and so you can exist for thousands of years
I think you need to look at European History! Wars, plagues, famine, slavery, etc., etc, and don’t forget children were recently working down mines and other very unhealthy and dangerous situations. And you think we have lived a better life. You must be F’ing mad!
I didn’t say it was better, why do certain peoples not go on to develop what I mentioned, we are all humans to have the same brain, way of thinking, etc what was the catalyst to kickstart all of it.
Cymek said:
PermeateFree said:
Cymek said:True, but I do wonder if Australia was so harsh most of the time was spent just surviving
If you think our lifestyles are easier and happier, and the Aboriginals are the direct opposite then you need to get out more. True in the last 200 years we have often made their lives a complete misery and we should acknowledge that fact.
Not happier, different.
Very much happier, ever think of those poor wretches working day and night so a few people could live the good life?
PermeateFree said:
The roots of the yam daisy was a popular food of Aborigines in areas where it grew. The tilled soil was highly UNlikely to be turned over for its cultivation, as that would destroy the developing crop. However the soil would be improved by the regular turning over of the soil as they dug for the roots. The Yam Daisy is also simulated by fire, so likely the region would have been burnt often. The seed is viable for only a few months, therefore the digging for the roots would have provided an ideal seedling bed for a new crop to grow. This type of farming is quite unlike the methods used by Europeans and is far more sensible as it does not involve unnecessary effort.
I have been growing and experimenting with yam daisies for about 5 years. I have planted 3 year old seed and it has grown just as well as fresh seed, so it is viable for longer than a few months. And it wasn’t refrigerated, kept at room temperature for all 3 years. I still have some from that batch which I’ll plant next year too.
I have experimented with smoke germination and just normal planting, and it went better without smoke treatment. I have a nurseryman friend who has been growing them longer, and he is getting great results….enough to regularly eat them as well as selling plants.
I have seen pictures somewhere of the digging stick tool they devised for the cultivation of the yam daisies. I’ll see if I can find where I saw it.
PermeateFree said:
Cymek said:
PermeateFree said:If you think our lifestyles are easier and happier, and the Aboriginals are the direct opposite then you need to get out more. True in the last 200 years we have often made their lives a complete misery and we should acknowledge that fact.
Not happier, different.
Very much happier, ever think of those poor wretches working day and night so a few people could live the good life?
Of course I do, it still exists in much larger but better hidden forms.
Human nature to exploit each other and most recently European colonisation caused all the problems, but people everywhere invade, conquer and exploit each other, China is the up and coming nation to do it.
A. Modern Convenience
B. Stone Age Subsistence.
I think I’m going to lock in A…
Cymek said:
PermeateFree said:
Cymek said:Why do certain peoples not go onto develop farming, villages, towns, science, etc is it all down to the harsh environment
It probably work out better in the long run as your way of life changes very little and so you can exist for thousands of years
I think you need to look at European History! Wars, plagues, famine, slavery, etc., etc, and don’t forget children were recently working down mines and other very unhealthy and dangerous situations. And you think we have lived a better life. You must be F’ing mad!
I didn’t say it was better, why do certain peoples not go on to develop what I mentioned, we are all humans to have the same brain, way of thinking, etc what was the catalyst to kickstart all of it.
They didn’t need to, what they had and knew gave them a good life over thousands of years, not just for a few individuals. You really ought to read European history where people could not go further than a few miles from their village and the diseases and poor health they got when living in highly populated areas, plus being dominated by king, lord and religion, and death and torture if you offended someone in high office. Then you have the poor education of the masses and the disastrous logic that went with it.
Cymek said:
PermeateFree said:
Cymek said:Why do certain peoples not go onto develop farming, villages, towns, science, etc is it all down to the harsh environment
It probably work out better in the long run as your way of life changes very little and so you can exist for thousands of years
I think you need to look at European History! Wars, plagues, famine, slavery, etc., etc, and don’t forget children were recently working down mines and other very unhealthy and dangerous situations. And you think we have lived a better life. You must be F’ing mad!
I didn’t say it was better, why do certain peoples not go on to develop what I mentioned, we are all humans to have the same brain, way of thinking, etc what was the catalyst to kickstart all of it.
The development of permanent agriculture on flood plains and the rise of cities with populations that could survive on the agricultural surplus.
ruby said:
PermeateFree said:
The roots of the yam daisy was a popular food of Aborigines in areas where it grew. The tilled soil was highly UNlikely to be turned over for its cultivation, as that would destroy the developing crop. However the soil would be improved by the regular turning over of the soil as they dug for the roots. The Yam Daisy is also simulated by fire, so likely the region would have been burnt often. The seed is viable for only a few months, therefore the digging for the roots would have provided an ideal seedling bed for a new crop to grow. This type of farming is quite unlike the methods used by Europeans and is far more sensible as it does not involve unnecessary effort.
I have been growing and experimenting with yam daisies for about 5 years. I have planted 3 year old seed and it has grown just as well as fresh seed, so it is viable for longer than a few months. And it wasn’t refrigerated, kept at room temperature for all 3 years. I still have some from that batch which I’ll plant next year too.
I have experimented with smoke germination and just normal planting, and it went better without smoke treatment. I have a nurseryman friend who has been growing them longer, and he is getting great results….enough to regularly eat them as well as selling plants.I have seen pictures somewhere of the digging stick tool they devised for the cultivation of the yam daisies. I’ll see if I can find where I saw it.
As for the short germination I read a paper about some years ago about that, although keeping them dry and in a cool darkened place would extend their viability. However, seed exposed to the elements, as would be the case in this instance would greatly reduce this period. Digging sticks are what the women used, is there another way?
PermeateFree said:
Cymek said:
PermeateFree said:I think you need to look at European History! Wars, plagues, famine, slavery, etc., etc, and don’t forget children were recently working down mines and other very unhealthy and dangerous situations. And you think we have lived a better life. You must be F’ing mad!
I didn’t say it was better, why do certain peoples not go on to develop what I mentioned, we are all humans to have the same brain, way of thinking, etc what was the catalyst to kickstart all of it.
They didn’t need to, what they had and knew gave them a good life over thousands of years, not just for a few individuals. You really ought to read European history where people could not go further than a few miles from their village and the diseases and poor health they got when living in highly populated areas, plus being dominated by king, lord and religion, and death and torture if you offended someone in high office. Then you have the poor education of the masses and the disastrous logic that went with it.
That’s what I am saying, why was it a conscious decision or environment or a bit of both.
You can’t tell me Aboriginal people weren’t curious about the world, why did they not develop science like many other places, was most of their time spent moving around and surviving
Cymek said:
PermeateFree said:
Cymek said:Not happier, different.
Very much happier, ever think of those poor wretches working day and night so a few people could live the good life?
Of course I do, it still exists in much larger but better hidden forms.
Human nature to exploit each other and most recently European colonisation caused all the problems, but people everywhere invade, conquer and exploit each other, China is the up and coming nation to do it.
Well if you read Aboriginal history and DNA results, you will discover that they remain largely within their recognised and established territories, which I think refutes much of your statement. Perhaps Europeans and those so called civilised nations have been raised to exploit other people, because they are so damned good at it.
furious said:
- And you think we have lived a better life.
A. Modern Convenience
B. Stone Age Subsistence.I think I’m going to lock in A…
You have obviously never spent much time outdoors enjoying nature. Might be as good if not better than having a remote tv switch to remove the necessity of having to get up to change channels. You would feel a lot better outside too, as you would probably be a great deal fitter. Swings and roundabout.
You say that like it is a good thing.
You say that like it is a bad thing.
They are the same thing…
PermeateFree said:
ruby said:
PermeateFree said:
The roots of the yam daisy was a popular food of Aborigines in areas where it grew. The tilled soil was highly UNlikely to be turned over for its cultivation, as that would destroy the developing crop. However the soil would be improved by the regular turning over of the soil as they dug for the roots. The Yam Daisy is also simulated by fire, so likely the region would have been burnt often. The seed is viable for only a few months, therefore the digging for the roots would have provided an ideal seedling bed for a new crop to grow. This type of farming is quite unlike the methods used by Europeans and is far more sensible as it does not involve unnecessary effort.
I have been growing and experimenting with yam daisies for about 5 years. I have planted 3 year old seed and it has grown just as well as fresh seed, so it is viable for longer than a few months. And it wasn’t refrigerated, kept at room temperature for all 3 years. I still have some from that batch which I’ll plant next year too.
I have experimented with smoke germination and just normal planting, and it went better without smoke treatment. I have a nurseryman friend who has been growing them longer, and he is getting great results….enough to regularly eat them as well as selling plants.I have seen pictures somewhere of the digging stick tool they devised for the cultivation of the yam daisies. I’ll see if I can find where I saw it.
As for the short germination I read a paper about some years ago about that, although keeping them dry and in a cool darkened place would extend their viability. However, seed exposed to the elements, as would be the case in this instance would greatly reduce this period. Digging sticks are what the women used, is there another way?
I kept them dry, but not cool and dark…in a bowl near a window. I was surprised when they germinated. But there are I think 3 species. Mine are lanceolata.
furious said:
- Well if you read Aboriginal history and DNA results, you will discover that they remain largely within their recognised and established territories
You say that like it is a good thing.
- You really ought to read European history where people could not go further than a few miles from their village
You say that like it is a bad thing.
They are the same thing…
Yes, our monkey brains are wired this way regardless of were and when we lived I think.
Living from day to day to get food and survive, or do something I enjoy and pay someone else to provide the food? Yeah, you can go digging and hunting for food if you want, I’ll use my free time on more enjoyable pursuits…
Cymek said:
PermeateFree said:
Cymek said:I didn’t say it was better, why do certain peoples not go on to develop what I mentioned, we are all humans to have the same brain, way of thinking, etc what was the catalyst to kickstart all of it.
They didn’t need to, what they had and knew gave them a good life over thousands of years, not just for a few individuals. You really ought to read European history where people could not go further than a few miles from their village and the diseases and poor health they got when living in highly populated areas, plus being dominated by king, lord and religion, and death and torture if you offended someone in high office. Then you have the poor education of the masses and the disastrous logic that went with it.
That’s what I am saying, why was it a conscious decision or environment or a bit of both.
You can’t tell me Aboriginal people weren’t curious about the world, why did they not develop science like many other places, was most of their time spent moving around and surviving
They did in their own way. They knew far more about their country, the other creatures that lived there, the best times to reap any abundance of food, how to look after country, etc., etc. Mate they lived here for something like 60,000 years and we have only been here for 250 years and already we have fucked up so much and you actually think they could learn from us.
furious said:
- Well if you read Aboriginal history and DNA results, you will discover that they remain largely within their recognised and established territories
You say that like it is a good thing.
- You really ought to read European history where people could not go further than a few miles from their village
You say that like it is a bad thing.
They are the same thing…
All I can say is you need to read a lot more history.
furious said:
- You have obviously never spent much time outdoors enjoying nature. Might be as good if not better than having a remote tv switch to remove the necessity of having to get up to change channels. You would feel a lot better outside too, as you would probably be a great deal fitter. Swings and roundabout.
Living from day to day to get food and survive, or do something I enjoy and pay someone else to provide the food? Yeah, you can go digging and hunting for food if you want, I’ll use my free time on more enjoyable pursuits…
Free time is only of recent invention for most of humanity.
ruby said:
PermeateFree said:
ruby said:I have been growing and experimenting with yam daisies for about 5 years. I have planted 3 year old seed and it has grown just as well as fresh seed, so it is viable for longer than a few months. And it wasn’t refrigerated, kept at room temperature for all 3 years. I still have some from that batch which I’ll plant next year too.
I have experimented with smoke germination and just normal planting, and it went better without smoke treatment. I have a nurseryman friend who has been growing them longer, and he is getting great results….enough to regularly eat them as well as selling plants.I have seen pictures somewhere of the digging stick tool they devised for the cultivation of the yam daisies. I’ll see if I can find where I saw it.
As for the short germination I read a paper about some years ago about that, although keeping them dry and in a cool darkened place would extend their viability. However, seed exposed to the elements, as would be the case in this instance would greatly reduce this period. Digging sticks are what the women used, is there another way?
I kept them dry, but not cool and dark…in a bowl near a window. I was surprised when they germinated. But there are I think 3 species. Mine are lanceolata.
Do you think they would have survived outside in the heat, rain and other environmental hazards any better?
How’s that going to help stop you from contradicting yourself?
PermeateFree said:
Cymek said:
PermeateFree said:They didn’t need to, what they had and knew gave them a good life over thousands of years, not just for a few individuals. You really ought to read European history where people could not go further than a few miles from their village and the diseases and poor health they got when living in highly populated areas, plus being dominated by king, lord and religion, and death and torture if you offended someone in high office. Then you have the poor education of the masses and the disastrous logic that went with it.
That’s what I am saying, why was it a conscious decision or environment or a bit of both.
You can’t tell me Aboriginal people weren’t curious about the world, why did they not develop science like many other places, was most of their time spent moving around and surviving
They did in their own way. They knew far more about their country, the other creatures that lived there, the best times to reap any abundance of food, how to look after country, etc., etc. Mate they lived here for something like 60,000 years and we have only been here for 250 years and already we have fucked up so much and you actually think they could learn from us.
I think that’s the point of Moll’s thread, asking about food technology, what knowledge has been here before we came in thinking we were superior, and imposing our ways upon the land.
Witty Rejoinder said:
furious said:
- You have obviously never spent much time outdoors enjoying nature. Might be as good if not better than having a remote tv switch to remove the necessity of having to get up to change channels. You would feel a lot better outside too, as you would probably be a great deal fitter. Swings and roundabout.
Living from day to day to get food and survive, or do something I enjoy and pay someone else to provide the food? Yeah, you can go digging and hunting for food if you want, I’ll use my free time on more enjoyable pursuits…
Free time is only of recent invention for most of humanity.
and it’s great, isn’t it?
Cymek said:
furious said:
- Well if you read Aboriginal history and DNA results, you will discover that they remain largely within their recognised and established territories
You say that like it is a good thing.
- You really ought to read European history where people could not go further than a few miles from their village
You say that like it is a bad thing.
They are the same thing…
Yes, our monkey brains are wired this way regardless of were and when we lived I think.
You are NOT listening and I have not the time to make you.
furious said:
- You have obviously never spent much time outdoors enjoying nature. Might be as good if not better than having a remote tv switch to remove the necessity of having to get up to change channels. You would feel a lot better outside too, as you would probably be a great deal fitter. Swings and roundabout.
Living from day to day to get food and survive, or do something I enjoy and pay someone else to provide the food? Yeah, you can go digging and hunting for food if you want, I’ll use my free time on more enjoyable pursuits…
Well before we fucked up the environment, collecting food in most instances was a great easier, quicker and enjoyable than it is today. If you want to understand how an indigenous people lived to have got to stop judging them through European eyes, because they are not European and have vastly different aims and ideas.
PermeateFree said:
Cymek said:
PermeateFree said:They didn’t need to, what they had and knew gave them a good life over thousands of years, not just for a few individuals. You really ought to read European history where people could not go further than a few miles from their village and the diseases and poor health they got when living in highly populated areas, plus being dominated by king, lord and religion, and death and torture if you offended someone in high office. Then you have the poor education of the masses and the disastrous logic that went with it.
That’s what I am saying, why was it a conscious decision or environment or a bit of both.
You can’t tell me Aboriginal people weren’t curious about the world, why did they not develop science like many other places, was most of their time spent moving around and surviving
They did in their own way. They knew far more about their country, the other creatures that lived there, the best times to reap any abundance of food, how to look after country, etc., etc. Mate they lived here for something like 60,000 years and we have only been here for 250 years and already we have fucked up so much and you actually think they could learn from us.
Yes of course they can, the old way of life is gone and that’s how things work, if you don’t adapt you die out
There was a microlith revolution in Australia some 5500 years ago, in which there was a sudden proliferation of small scrapers, points, symmetric backed blades etc. It is broadly accepted that this was associated with an influx of people from southern Asia, and represented quite a leap in food technology.
furious said:
- All I can say is you need to read a lot more history.
How’s that going to help stop you from contradicting yourself?
You are just trolling now, so piss off, I’ve wasted more than enough time on you.
PermeateFree said:
Cymek said:
furious said:
- Well if you read Aboriginal history and DNA results, you will discover that they remain largely within their recognised and established territories
You say that like it is a good thing.
- You really ought to read European history where people could not go further than a few miles from their village
You say that like it is a bad thing.
They are the same thing…
Yes, our monkey brains are wired this way regardless of were and when we lived I think.
You are NOT listening and I have not the time to make you.
Neither are you, you claim Aboriginal people are superior, they aren’t they are different, superiority complexes cause lots of problems.
You also can’t say what happened and how they acted in the distant past.
So, you don’t want to address the point?
ruby said:
PermeateFree said:
Cymek said:That’s what I am saying, why was it a conscious decision or environment or a bit of both.
You can’t tell me Aboriginal people weren’t curious about the world, why did they not develop science like many other places, was most of their time spent moving around and surviving
They did in their own way. They knew far more about their country, the other creatures that lived there, the best times to reap any abundance of food, how to look after country, etc., etc. Mate they lived here for something like 60,000 years and we have only been here for 250 years and already we have fucked up so much and you actually think they could learn from us.
I think that’s the point of Moll’s thread, asking about food technology, what knowledge has been here before we came in thinking we were superior, and imposing our ways upon the land.
ruby, I was replying to the post of cymek and usually do as the conversation moves on.
dv said:
There was a microlith revolution in Australia some 5500 years ago, in which there was a sudden proliferation of small scrapers, points, symmetric backed blades etc. It is broadly accepted that this was associated with an influx of people from southern Asia, and represented quite a leap in food technology.
Interesting point the above, other people giving valuable skills.
Everyone can learn from others
furious said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
furious said:
- You have obviously never spent much time outdoors enjoying nature. Might be as good if not better than having a remote tv switch to remove the necessity of having to get up to change channels. You would feel a lot better outside too, as you would probably be a great deal fitter. Swings and roundabout.
Living from day to day to get food and survive, or do something I enjoy and pay someone else to provide the food? Yeah, you can go digging and hunting for food if you want, I’ll use my free time on more enjoyable pursuits…
Free time is only of recent invention for most of humanity.
and it’s great, isn’t it?
I think you underestimate how much ‘free time’ is actually available in a hunter gatherer society. In most ‘civilised’ societies up until very recently it was 14hr days 6 days a week depending on the season.
Cymek said:
PermeateFree said:
Cymek said:That’s what I am saying, why was it a conscious decision or environment or a bit of both.
You can’t tell me Aboriginal people weren’t curious about the world, why did they not develop science like many other places, was most of their time spent moving around and surviving
They did in their own way. They knew far more about their country, the other creatures that lived there, the best times to reap any abundance of food, how to look after country, etc., etc. Mate they lived here for something like 60,000 years and we have only been here for 250 years and already we have fucked up so much and you actually think they could learn from us.
Yes of course they can, the old way of life is gone and that’s how things work, if you don’t adapt you die out
Funny you should say that, because it looks as if our way might cause us to die off. Perhaps we are not as smart as we think we are and that there are more important things in life than greed and possession.
Cymek said:
PermeateFree said:
Cymek said:Yes, our monkey brains are wired this way regardless of were and when we lived I think.
You are NOT listening and I have not the time to make you.
You also can’t say what happened and how they acted in the distant past.
PermeateFree said:
Cymek said:
PermeateFree said:They did in their own way. They knew far more about their country, the other creatures that lived there, the best times to reap any abundance of food, how to look after country, etc., etc. Mate they lived here for something like 60,000 years and we have only been here for 250 years and already we have fucked up so much and you actually think they could learn from us.
Yes of course they can, the old way of life is gone and that’s how things work, if you don’t adapt you die out
Funny you should say that, because it looks as if our way might cause us to die off. Perhaps we are not as smart as we think we are and that there are more important things in life than greed and possession.
Not everyone is into possessions, its drummed into us most certainly
Cymek said:
PermeateFree said:
Cymek said:Yes, our monkey brains are wired this way regardless of were and when we lived I think.
You are NOT listening and I have not the time to make you.
Neither are you, you claim Aboriginal people are superior, they aren’t they are different, superiority complexes cause lots of problems.
You also can’t say what happened and how they acted in the distant past.
Think you ought to read more carefully. It is you who have been saying their way life was inferior and that ours was superior. They are just very, very different and as they have survived considerably longer than us, you should take note.
ruby said:
Cymek said:
PermeateFree said:You are NOT listening and I have not the time to make you.
You also can’t say what happened and how they acted in the distant past.
Historians and archeologists can, and it’s not like they are a long dead culture. still living and still passing on knowledge.
No but its still fragmentary and certain events wouldn’t be detectable, say for example a war between many tribes
PermeateFree said:
furious said:
- All I can say is you need to read a lot more history.
How’s that going to help stop you from contradicting yourself?
You are just trolling now, so piss off, I’ve wasted more than enough time on you.
Mr Speaker I rise to move an amendment too the above post.
I move that all words after ‘are’ be removed and replaced by the following words “debating the question put forward in the original post however I respectfully disagree with your point of view in this instance”
This is in the past and what I personally have now is far more appealing to me than that past or the hunter gatherer lifestyle which is somehow so glorious that no one actually actively chooses to do it nowadays…
PermeateFree said:
Cymek said:
PermeateFree said:You are NOT listening and I have not the time to make you.
Neither are you, you claim Aboriginal people are superior, they aren’t they are different, superiority complexes cause lots of problems.
You also can’t say what happened and how they acted in the distant past.
Think you ought to read more carefully. It is you who have been saying their way life was inferior and that ours was superior. They are just very, very different and as they have survived considerably longer than us, you should take note.
No I said we are all different, I asked why did they not develop certain skills sets.
That is what he said…
PermeateFree said:
Cymek said:
PermeateFree said:You are NOT listening and I have not the time to make you.
Neither are you, you claim Aboriginal people are superior, they aren’t they are different, superiority complexes cause lots of problems.
You also can’t say what happened and how they acted in the distant past.
Think you ought to read more carefully. It is you who have been saying their way life was inferior and that ours was superior. They are just very, very different and as they have survived considerably longer than us, you should take note.
Well there ya go, I would have thought them very very much the same and arrived last at the most remote and stable extent of human migration and have survived for as long as the rest of humanity, and in situ a lot less time than the majority of humanity.
furious said:
- In most ‘civilised’ societies up until very recently it was 14hr days 6 days a week depending on the season.
This is in the past and what I personally have now is far more appealing to me than that past or the hunter gatherer lifestyle which is somehow so glorious that no one actually actively chooses to do it nowadays…
It’s also annoying its claimed science and technology wrecked the planet, small numbers of people wrecked it and most everyone else went along with it and/or had no choice as they were born into it. We could have and still can do it far more responsibly but small numbers of people who own just about everything like it that way.
Cymek said:
PermeateFree said:
Cymek said:Neither are you, you claim Aboriginal people are superior, they aren’t they are different, superiority complexes cause lots of problems.
You also can’t say what happened and how they acted in the distant past.
Think you ought to read more carefully. It is you who have been saying their way life was inferior and that ours was superior. They are just very, very different and as they have survived considerably longer than us, you should take note.
No I said we are all different, I asked why did they not develop certain skills sets.
Go back and read it again. Sorry, but I am sick of this pointless discussion; a certain level of knowledge and understanding is required before you can progress this topic further.
Cymek said:
furious said:
- In most ‘civilised’ societies up until very recently it was 14hr days 6 days a week depending on the season.
This is in the past and what I personally have now is far more appealing to me than that past or the hunter gatherer lifestyle which is somehow so glorious that no one actually actively chooses to do it nowadays…
It’s also annoying its claimed science and technology wrecked the planet, small numbers of people wrecked it and most everyone else went along with it and/or had no choice as they were born into it. We could have and still can do it far more responsibly but small numbers of people who own just about everything like it that way.
Go a burn some more coal Cymek. I’m off now, really had enough.
So, you’re off to burn a forest to make it easier to catch a couple of wallabies?
PermeateFree said:
Cymek said:
furious said:
- In most ‘civilised’ societies up until very recently it was 14hr days 6 days a week depending on the season.
This is in the past and what I personally have now is far more appealing to me than that past or the hunter gatherer lifestyle which is somehow so glorious that no one actually actively chooses to do it nowadays…
It’s also annoying its claimed science and technology wrecked the planet, small numbers of people wrecked it and most everyone else went along with it and/or had no choice as they were born into it. We could have and still can do it far more responsibly but small numbers of people who own just about everything like it that way.
Go a burn some more coal Cymek. I’m off now, really had enough.
Says you typing on a computer powered by electricity living in a house with modern conveniences whom I assume drives a car
PermeateFree said:
Funny you should say that, because it looks as if our way might cause us to die off. Perhaps we are not as smart as we think we are and that there are more important things in life than greed and possession.
I’d rather the internet, space travel and renewable energy than banging sticks together for technology, but thats just me ..
To say there’s no greed or possession in indigenous culture is stupid..
furious said:
- In most ‘civilised’ societies up until very recently it was 14hr days 6 days a week depending on the season.
This is in the past and what I personally have now is far more appealing to me than that past or the hunter gatherer lifestyle which is somehow so glorious that no one actually actively chooses to do it nowadays…
I thought we were comparing the past. I’ve said nothing to suggest that a hunter/gatherer existence is better than that in a post-industrial society.
Cymek said:
PermeateFree said:
Cymek said:Neither are you, you claim Aboriginal people are superior, they aren’t they are different, superiority complexes cause lots of problems.
You also can’t say what happened and how they acted in the distant past.
Think you ought to read more carefully. It is you who have been saying their way life was inferior and that ours was superior. They are just very, very different and as they have survived considerably longer than us, you should take note.
No I said we are all different, I asked why did they not develop certain skills sets.
You haven’t responded to my posts on the matter at all.
Witty Rejoinder said:
Cymek said:
PermeateFree said:Think you ought to read more carefully. It is you who have been saying their way life was inferior and that ours was superior. They are just very, very different and as they have survived considerably longer than us, you should take note.
No I said we are all different, I asked why did they not develop certain skills sets.
You haven’t responded to my posts on the matter at all.
Sorry was busy responding to others
Witty Rejoinder said:
Cymek said:
PermeateFree said:I think you need to look at European History! Wars, plagues, famine, slavery, etc., etc, and don’t forget children were recently working down mines and other very unhealthy and dangerous situations. And you think we have lived a better life. You must be F’ing mad!
I didn’t say it was better, why do certain peoples not go on to develop what I mentioned, we are all humans to have the same brain, way of thinking, etc what was the catalyst to kickstart all of it.
The development of permanent agriculture on flood plains and the rise of cities with populations that could survive on the agricultural surplus.
That is the sort of thing I was wondering
Witty Rejoinder said:
furious said:
- In most ‘civilised’ societies up until very recently it was 14hr days 6 days a week depending on the season.
This is in the past and what I personally have now is far more appealing to me than that past or the hunter gatherer lifestyle which is somehow so glorious that no one actually actively chooses to do it nowadays…
I thought we were comparing the past. I’ve said nothing to suggest that a hunter/gatherer existence is better than that in a post-industrial society.
Whilst I was responding directly to your post, I was also addressing the wider audience. On individual has been suggesting the hunter/gatherer existence is better than anything modern…
furious said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
furious said:
- In most ‘civilised’ societies up until very recently it was 14hr days 6 days a week depending on the season.
This is in the past and what I personally have now is far more appealing to me than that past or the hunter gatherer lifestyle which is somehow so glorious that no one actually actively chooses to do it nowadays…
I thought we were comparing the past. I’ve said nothing to suggest that a hunter/gatherer existence is better than that in a post-industrial society.
Whilst I was responding directly to your post, I was also addressing the wider audience. On individual has been suggesting the hunter/gatherer existence is better than anything modern…
Not sure if PF things are we don’t embrace a tribal way of life and like modern technology and science we are all evil capitalists, It’s not that I like the Empire; I hate it, but there’s nothing I can do about it right now
Cymek said:
furious said:
Witty Rejoinder said:I thought we were comparing the past. I’ve said nothing to suggest that a hunter/gatherer existence is better than that in a post-industrial society.
Whilst I was responding directly to your post, I was also addressing the wider audience. On individual has been suggesting the hunter/gatherer existence is better than anything modern…
Not sure if PF things are we don’t embrace a tribal way of life and like modern technology and science we are all evil capitalists, It’s not that I like the Empire; I hate it, but there’s nothing I can do about it right now
Kill some younglings and then you’ll have all the answers.
PermeateFree said:
sarahs mum said:
PermeateFree said:The roots of the yam daisy was a popular food of Aborigines in areas where it grew. The tilled soil was highly UNlikely to be turned over for its cultivation, as that would destroy the developing crop. However the soil would be improved by the regular turning over of the soil as they dug for the roots. The Yam Daisy is also simulated by fire, so likely the region would have been burnt often. The seed is viable for only a few months, therefore the digging for the roots would have provided an ideal seedling bed for a new crop to grow. This type of farming is quite unlike the methods used by Europeans and is far more sensible as it does not involve unnecessary effort.
I read somewhere that they buried their food waste? Was this widespread? Or just some peoples…
Aborigines did not do things unnecessarily, they were very economical with their time, so very much doubt it, although when cooking food underground they would use vegetable matter in the process and probably for extra flavoring.
This.
PermeateFree said:
buffy said:
PermeateFree said:The roots of the yam daisy was a popular food of Aborigines in areas where it grew. The tilled soil was highly UNlikely to be turned over for its cultivation, as that would destroy the developing crop. However the soil would be improved by the regular turning over of the soil as they dug for the roots. The Yam Daisy is also simulated by fire, so likely the region would have been burnt often. The seed is viable for only a few months, therefore the digging for the roots would have provided an ideal seedling bed for a new crop to grow. This type of farming is quite unlike the methods used by Europeans and is far more sensible as it does not involve unnecessary effort.
My understanding from the information from Brambuk (Halls Gap cultural centre), is that when the harvesting was going on, the larger roots were taken and the smaller ones planted back, and doing this automatically tilled the soil. And also turned in the ash from the burns.
I would doubt if many of the smaller daisies would have survived this type of root disturbance, plus it was completely unnecessary. Ash from bushfires is very fine and would work its way into the soil, especially if it have been turned over regularly when extracting roots.
The seed from the daisies is also fine and without this disturbance would have flown on the breeze to elsewhere.
PermeateFree said:
mollwollfumble said:
PermeateFree said:Coastal areas are very good at providing food for Europeans as well as Aborigines. The fruits of the native grape and pigface were very popular as were native spinach, roots and berries of various plants, etc. Grasstrees also provided a tasty starchy pith, orchid and lily tubers are also very tasty.
Thanks for that. I think the local council is spraying herbicide on the native spinach :-(
It can be very weedy by smothering other vegetation.
You have a lot more water than me.
PermeateFree said:
Cymek said:
roughbarked said:Our larger population buries billions of dollars worth of unopened and uneaten fresh produce each year that we subsidise our farmers to rape the land to produce.
We don’t have to denigrate ourselves to elevate Aboriginal people you know, credit were its due they aren’t some superior race compared to the white man they used what worked
Plus they developed their methods over thousands of years. The knowledge base and cultures of Aborigines and Europeans are totally different and are not comparable.
No longer able to. We ploughed all that land or put cattle sheep and rabbits onto it.
roughbarked said:
PermeateFree said:
Cymek said:We don’t have to denigrate ourselves to elevate Aboriginal people you know, credit were its due they aren’t some superior race compared to the white man they used what worked
Plus they developed their methods over thousands of years. The knowledge base and cultures of Aborigines and Europeans are totally different and are not comparable.
No longer able to. We ploughed all that land or put cattle sheep and rabbits onto it.
Couldn’t you do it anywhere
Cymek said:
furious said:
- True and Australia isn’t exactly the friendliest of places to live out in the wild, could die very easily.
Subsistence is hard slog no matter where you do it…
True, but I do wonder if Australia was so harsh most of the time was spent just surviving
The people could see most of the land. Big sky Australia. They could simply up camp and move to where they could see the rain falling.
Cymek said:
Cymek said:
furious said:
- True and Australia isn’t exactly the friendliest of places to live out in the wild, could die very easily.
Subsistence is hard slog no matter where you do it…
True, but I do wonder if Australia was so harsh most of the time was spent just surviving
Why do certain peoples not go onto develop farming, villages, towns, science, etc is it all down to the harsh environment
It probably work out better in the long run as your way of life changes very little and so you can exist for thousands of years
This is actually why moving our cities here was a bit misinterpreted.
Cymek said:
PermeateFree said:
Cymek said:Why do certain peoples not go onto develop farming, villages, towns, science, etc is it all down to the harsh environment
It probably work out better in the long run as your way of life changes very little and so you can exist for thousands of years
I think you need to look at European History! Wars, plagues, famine, slavery, etc., etc, and don’t forget children were recently working down mines and other very unhealthy and dangerous situations. And you think we have lived a better life. You must be F’ing mad!
I didn’t say it was better, why do certain peoples not go on to develop what I mentioned, we are all humans to have the same brain, way of thinking, etc what was the catalyst to kickstart all of it.
Think transplant yourself in a new landscape mate.
Witty Rejoinder said:
furious said:
- You have obviously never spent much time outdoors enjoying nature. Might be as good if not better than having a remote tv switch to remove the necessity of having to get up to change channels. You would feel a lot better outside too, as you would probably be a great deal fitter. Swings and roundabout.
Living from day to day to get food and survive, or do something I enjoy and pay someone else to provide the food? Yeah, you can go digging and hunting for food if you want, I’ll use my free time on more enjoyable pursuits…
Free time is only of recent invention for most of humanity.
The baby boomers were in part the first generation that didn’t have to work.
roughbarked said:
Cymek said:
furious said:
- True and Australia isn’t exactly the friendliest of places to live out in the wild, could die very easily.
Subsistence is hard slog no matter where you do it…
True, but I do wonder if Australia was so harsh most of the time was spent just surviving
The people could see most of the land. Big sky Australia. They could simply up camp and move to where they could see the rain falling.
This is very true. And the kangaroos did the same too, to get the new green pick. Win-win.
Cymek said:
dv said:
There was a microlith revolution in Australia some 5500 years ago, in which there was a sudden proliferation of small scrapers, points, symmetric backed blades etc. It is broadly accepted that this was associated with an influx of people from southern Asia, and represented quite a leap in food technology.
Interesting point the above, other people giving valuable skills.
Everyone can learn from others
Only if they can lower themselves to whatever level of the equilibrium.
roughbarked said:
Cymek said:
PermeateFree said:I think you need to look at European History! Wars, plagues, famine, slavery, etc., etc, and don’t forget children were recently working down mines and other very unhealthy and dangerous situations. And you think we have lived a better life. You must be F’ing mad!
I didn’t say it was better, why do certain peoples not go on to develop what I mentioned, we are all humans to have the same brain, way of thinking, etc what was the catalyst to kickstart all of it.
Think transplant yourself in a new landscape mate.
Initially but over centuries why
I’m not saying anyone is superior or inferior but why unless its aliens
Cymek said:
ruby said:
Cymek said:You also can’t say what happened and how they acted in the distant past.
Historians and archeologists can, and it’s not like they are a long dead culture. still living and still passing on knowledge.No but its still fragmentary and certain events wouldn’t be detectable, say for example a war between many tribes
For a start. So much was actually never kept as official records. We have only a smattering from the few intellectually capable that found themselves oon these forlorn shores.
Cymek said:
furious said:
- In most ‘civilised’ societies up until very recently it was 14hr days 6 days a week depending on the season.
This is in the past and what I personally have now is far more appealing to me than that past or the hunter gatherer lifestyle which is somehow so glorious that no one actually actively chooses to do it nowadays…
It’s also annoying its claimed science and technology wrecked the planet, small numbers of people wrecked it and most everyone else went along with it and/or had no choice as they were born into it. We could have and still can do it far more responsibly but small numbers of people who own just about everything like it that way.
Trouble about science, it is a bit like grinding an axe.
Cymek said:
roughbarked said:
PermeateFree said:Plus they developed their methods over thousands of years. The knowledge base and cultures of Aborigines and Europeans are totally different and are not comparable.
No longer able to. We ploughed all that land or put cattle sheep and rabbits onto it.
Couldn’t you do it anywhere
Well yes. However, the size of such areas is now extremely limited.
roughbarked said:
Cymek said:
ruby said:Historians and archeologists can, and it’s not like they are a long dead culture. still living and still passing on knowledge.
No but its still fragmentary and certain events wouldn’t be detectable, say for example a war between many tribes
For a start. So much was actually never kept as official records. We have only a smattering from the few intellectually capable that found themselves oon these forlorn shores.
All history is some evidence and lots of guesswork (usually educated) but if the people in question left little behind its even harder and you could assume when asking those still alive how it was done it was always done this way, it may have been, why fix something not broken. The Aboriginal people encountered by the Europeans had thousands of years to gain those skills and way of life but when they first arrived they would have very little clue on what to do besides obvious similarities from were they came
Cymek said:
roughbarked said:
Cymek said:I didn’t say it was better, why do certain peoples not go on to develop what I mentioned, we are all humans to have the same brain, way of thinking, etc what was the catalyst to kickstart all of it.
Think transplant yourself in a new landscape mate.
Initially but over centuries why
I’m not saying anyone is superior or inferior but why unless its aliens
You haven’t really been reading my posts deeply enough.
roughbarked said:
Cymek said:
furious said:
- In most ‘civilised’ societies up until very recently it was 14hr days 6 days a week depending on the season.
This is in the past and what I personally have now is far more appealing to me than that past or the hunter gatherer lifestyle which is somehow so glorious that no one actually actively chooses to do it nowadays…
It’s also annoying its claimed science and technology wrecked the planet, small numbers of people wrecked it and most everyone else went along with it and/or had no choice as they were born into it. We could have and still can do it far more responsibly but small numbers of people who own just about everything like it that way.
Trouble about science, it is a bit like grinding an axe.
Its not good or bad though like is claimed, everything works according to some scientific principle even the natural world
roughbarked said:
Cymek said:
furious said:
- In most ‘civilised’ societies up until very recently it was 14hr days 6 days a week depending on the season.
This is in the past and what I personally have now is far more appealing to me than that past or the hunter gatherer lifestyle which is somehow so glorious that no one actually actively chooses to do it nowadays…
It’s also annoying its claimed science and technology wrecked the planet, small numbers of people wrecked it and most everyone else went along with it and/or had no choice as they were born into it. We could have and still can do it far more responsibly but small numbers of people who own just about everything like it that way.
Trouble about science, it is a bit like grinding an axe.
What do you mean?
roughbarked said:
Cymek said:
roughbarked said:Think transplant yourself in a new landscape mate.
Initially but over centuries why
I’m not saying anyone is superior or inferior but why unless its aliens
You haven’t really been reading my posts deeply enough.
Not everyone’s no as I am actually meant to be doing work
Michael V said:
roughbarked said:
Cymek said:It’s also annoying its claimed science and technology wrecked the planet, small numbers of people wrecked it and most everyone else went along with it and/or had no choice as they were born into it. We could have and still can do it far more responsibly but small numbers of people who own just about everything like it that way.
Trouble about science, it is a bit like grinding an axe.
What do you mean?
Grinding an axe, is a science.
Cymek said:
roughbarked said:
Cymek said:Initially but over centuries why
I’m not saying anyone is superior or inferior but why unless its aliens
You haven’t really been reading my posts deeply enough.
Not everyone’s no as I am actually meant to be doing work
Too stoned to have that out of the way by now?
roughbarked said:
Michael V said:
roughbarked said:Trouble about science, it is a bit like grinding an axe.
What do you mean?
Grinding an axe, is a science.
idgi.
Michael V said:
roughbarked said:
Michael V said:What do you mean?
Grinding an axe, is a science.
idgi.
OK, you slice or peck at bits of rock don’t you?
roughbarked said:
Michael V said:
roughbarked said:Grinding an axe, is a science.
idgi.
OK, you slice or peck at bits of rock don’t you?
But have you ever tried to hand grind a piece of basalt into an axe?
roughbarked said:
Cymek said:
roughbarked said:You haven’t really been reading my posts deeply enough.
Not everyone’s no as I am actually meant to be doing work
Too stoned to have that out of the way by now?
Me ?
No it comes continuously throughout the day
I get it done but are aware I am on here and people can see that
Cymek said:
roughbarked said:
Cymek said:Not everyone’s no as I am actually meant to be doing work
Too stoned to have that out of the way by now?
Me ?
No it comes continuously throughout the day
I get it done but are aware I am on here and people can see that
As does all work. Ergs and ergs of it.
ruby said:
PermeateFree said:
The roots of the yam daisy was a popular food of Aborigines in areas where it grew. The tilled soil was highly UNlikely to be turned over for its cultivation, as that would destroy the developing crop. However the soil would be improved by the regular turning over of the soil as they dug for the roots. The Yam Daisy is also simulated by fire, so likely the region would have been burnt often. The seed is viable for only a few months, therefore the digging for the roots would have provided an ideal seedling bed for a new crop to grow. This type of farming is quite unlike the methods used by Europeans and is far more sensible as it does not involve unnecessary effort.
I have been growing and experimenting with yam daisies for about 5 years. I have planted 3 year old seed and it has grown just as well as fresh seed, so it is viable for longer than a few months. And it wasn’t refrigerated, kept at room temperature for all 3 years. I still have some from that batch which I’ll plant next year too.
I have experimented with smoke germination and just normal planting, and it went better without smoke treatment. I have a nurseryman friend who has been growing them longer, and he is getting great results….enough to regularly eat them as well as selling plants.I have seen pictures somewhere of the digging stick tool they devised for the cultivation of the yam daisies. I’ll see if I can find where I saw it.
Oh, this is encouraging. I had a go with collecting seed from our block, and also with digging up tubers, but when I was still working I couldn’t devote enough time to watching and observing and looking after them. I want to try again. I collected seed last year from the roadside kangaroo grass and thought I had it going – only for the grass to end up being rye grass. I thought I’d been careful. I’ll have to be more careful. I will put the seed into a pot and then plant out the plants next time rather than trying to do a small patch of general garden bed.
buffy said:
ruby said:
PermeateFree said:
The roots of the yam daisy was a popular food of Aborigines in areas where it grew. The tilled soil was highly UNlikely to be turned over for its cultivation, as that would destroy the developing crop. However the soil would be improved by the regular turning over of the soil as they dug for the roots. The Yam Daisy is also simulated by fire, so likely the region would have been burnt often. The seed is viable for only a few months, therefore the digging for the roots would have provided an ideal seedling bed for a new crop to grow. This type of farming is quite unlike the methods used by Europeans and is far more sensible as it does not involve unnecessary effort.
I have been growing and experimenting with yam daisies for about 5 years. I have planted 3 year old seed and it has grown just as well as fresh seed, so it is viable for longer than a few months. And it wasn’t refrigerated, kept at room temperature for all 3 years. I still have some from that batch which I’ll plant next year too.
I have experimented with smoke germination and just normal planting, and it went better without smoke treatment. I have a nurseryman friend who has been growing them longer, and he is getting great results….enough to regularly eat them as well as selling plants.I have seen pictures somewhere of the digging stick tool they devised for the cultivation of the yam daisies. I’ll see if I can find where I saw it.
Oh, this is encouraging. I had a go with collecting seed from our block, and also with digging up tubers, but when I was still working I couldn’t devote enough time to watching and observing and looking after them. I want to try again. I collected seed last year from the roadside kangaroo grass and thought I had it going – only for the grass to end up being rye grass. I thought I’d been careful. I’ll have to be more careful. I will put the seed into a pot and then plant out the plants next time rather than trying to do a small patch of general garden bed.
You have all the time in the world now, buffy.
roughbarked said:
buffy said:
ruby said:I have been growing and experimenting with yam daisies for about 5 years. I have planted 3 year old seed and it has grown just as well as fresh seed, so it is viable for longer than a few months. And it wasn’t refrigerated, kept at room temperature for all 3 years. I still have some from that batch which I’ll plant next year too.
I have experimented with smoke germination and just normal planting, and it went better without smoke treatment. I have a nurseryman friend who has been growing them longer, and he is getting great results….enough to regularly eat them as well as selling plants.I have seen pictures somewhere of the digging stick tool they devised for the cultivation of the yam daisies. I’ll see if I can find where I saw it.
Oh, this is encouraging. I had a go with collecting seed from our block, and also with digging up tubers, but when I was still working I couldn’t devote enough time to watching and observing and looking after them. I want to try again. I collected seed last year from the roadside kangaroo grass and thought I had it going – only for the grass to end up being rye grass. I thought I’d been careful. I’ll have to be more careful. I will put the seed into a pot and then plant out the plants next time rather than trying to do a small patch of general garden bed.
You have all the time in the world now, buffy.
In between writing patient reports. There is a list of another 4 sitting in front of me now.
Another change that happened about 5000 years ago was that methods for detoxifying cyclad kernels, making them safe to eat.
dv said:
Another change that happened about 5000 years ago was that methods for detoxifying cyclad kernels, making them safe to eat.
>>The earliest archaeological evidence of indigenous Macrozamia seed sarcotesta pit processing in Australia derives from southwestern Australia where Smith (1982) located ancient Macrozamia kernels in association with Xanthorrhoea leaf bases in a shallow 20cm deep pit that she suggests may have been used for water-leaching or fermentation purposes. This ancient evidence of Macrozamia pit processing at Cheetup Rockshelter in the Esperance region which dates back approximately 13,000 years BP during the late Pleistocene (Smith 1982, 1996, 1999) predates by about 9000 years the earliest archaeological records for cycad seed processing in Northern and Eastern Australia.10<<
https://anthropologyfromtheshed.com/project/the-ancient-practice-of-macrozamia-pit-processing-in-southwestern-australia/
Cymek said:
roughbarked said:
Cymek said:No but its still fragmentary and certain events wouldn’t be detectable, say for example a war between many tribes
For a start. So much was actually never kept as official records. We have only a smattering from the few intellectually capable that found themselves oon these forlorn shores.
All history is some evidence and lots of guesswork (usually educated) but if the people in question left little behind its even harder and you could assume when asking those still alive how it was done it was always done this way, it may have been, why fix something not broken. The Aboriginal people encountered by the Europeans had thousands of years to gain those skills and way of life but when they first arrived they would have very little clue on what to do besides obvious similarities from were they came
Necessity is the mother of invention and although there have been many environmental changes in Australia, the Aborigines would have invented methods and things that would improve their way of life in the circumstances. Europeans on the other-hand were constantly at war with each other or taking dominion over others. To survive in this environment they needed weapons and tactics more superior than their foes. Europeans with their concept of possession had reasons to stop others from stealing what they had. In a hunter/gatherer lifestyle, there are fewer reasons for conflict, plus they were more concerned about the viability of the land as it was this which allowed them to survive. They did not destroy the land for personal wealth and advancement over others, thereby giving them an entirely different outlook on life and the way they needed to survive well within their means.
Currently, we are and have been for sometime, eating the future of our children and their environment and have already exceeded natures capacity to supply, resulting largely the reason why we have all our environmental problems. So the pleasures of your life are being paid for by future generations, but why should you worry as you can see the current benefits and enjoy the ease of living, so make the most of it, because it cannot continue much longer.
Aha, I’ve found a firm reference to aborigines hunting seals. From “The other side of the frontier”.
I can see why this isn’t in the usual aboriginal history books.
dv said:
Another change that happened about 5000 years ago was that methods for detoxifying cyclad kernels, making them safe to eat.
What makes you sure of the date?
PermeateFree said:
dv said:
Another change that happened about 5000 years ago was that methods for detoxifying cyclad kernels, making them safe to eat.
>>The earliest archaeological evidence of indigenous Macrozamia seed sarcotesta pit processing in Australia derives from southwestern Australia where Smith (1982) located ancient Macrozamia kernels in association with Xanthorrhoea leaf bases in a shallow 20cm deep pit that she suggests may have been used for water-leaching or fermentation purposes. This ancient evidence of Macrozamia pit processing at Cheetup Rockshelter in the Esperance region which dates back approximately 13,000 years BP during the late Pleistocene (Smith 1982, 1996, 1999) predates by about 9000 years the earliest archaeological records for cycad seed processing in Northern and Eastern Australia.10<<
https://anthropologyfromtheshed.com/project/the-ancient-practice-of-macrozamia-pit-processing-in-southwestern-australia/
There you go. I knew there had to be older evidence.
mollwollfumble said:
Aha, I’ve found a firm reference to aborigines hunting seals. From “The other side of the frontier”.I can see why this isn’t in the usual aboriginal history books.
Why?
roughbarked said:
PermeateFree said:
dv said:
Another change that happened about 5000 years ago was that methods for detoxifying cyclad kernels, making them safe to eat.
>>The earliest archaeological evidence of indigenous Macrozamia seed sarcotesta pit processing in Australia derives from southwestern Australia where Smith (1982) located ancient Macrozamia kernels in association with Xanthorrhoea leaf bases in a shallow 20cm deep pit that she suggests may have been used for water-leaching or fermentation purposes. This ancient evidence of Macrozamia pit processing at Cheetup Rockshelter in the Esperance region which dates back approximately 13,000 years BP during the late Pleistocene (Smith 1982, 1996, 1999) predates by about 9000 years the earliest archaeological records for cycad seed processing in Northern and Eastern Australia.10<<
https://anthropologyfromtheshed.com/project/the-ancient-practice-of-macrozamia-pit-processing-in-southwestern-australia/
There you go. I knew there had to be older evidence.
Thank you.
——
I need to correct something i said earlier. I said that Tasmanian Aborigines couldn’t make fire, could only borrow it. Two historians I read had said that.
But apparently it’s not true. “The French observed that the natives produced fire by striking two flint rocks together, a practice apparently unique to Van Diemen’s Land”. Furneaux reported this in March 1773 on Bruny Island.
From Page 193 of Seal (2015) “The savage shore”
Rocks
A South Australian aboriginal copper finds things like wombats in the bush and bashes them over the head with rocks
Rocks are amazing, so are sticks and leaves.
wookiemeister said:
… and bark.
RocksA South Australian aboriginal copper finds things like wombats in the bush and bashes them over the head with rocks
Rocks are amazing, so are sticks and leaves.
More than wombats.
