Interesting comments re my post
My yard is quite small (in Sydney) & try not to use pesicides.
Every year we have hordes of those mud wasps, they nest everywhere, amazing to see them approaching a caterpillar – the caterpillar seems to know one of them is nearby & go into a frenzy to try & escape before the wasp gets them.
I had some Basil near the backdoor last year & I saw the caterpillars writhe around & drop off the Basil to escape….but no chance at all.

We also had some large Mantis that laid egg cases & have seen quite a few babies already this season.

possum70 said:

Interesting comments re my post
My yard is quite small (in Sydney) & try not to use pesicides.
Every year we have hordes of those mud wasps, they nest everywhere, amazing to see them approaching a caterpillar – the caterpillar seems to know one of them is nearby & go into a frenzy to try & escape before the wasp gets them.
I had some Basil near the backdoor last year & I saw the caterpillars writhe around & drop off the Basil to escape….but no chance at all.

We also had some large Mantis that laid egg cases & have seen quite a few babies already this season.

Now I have to go back to the other thread to find out what the original post was about…

However I think you will find that eventually, with supply and demand, the predators will build up to knock of the bugs, but it will prolly take a couple of months…over to you RoughBarked, and other more knowledgeable folk…

Ok, I think you are doing very well, considering, and I think you will find that we all don’t mind some for the bugs, some for the birds and some for us…just “some”, mind you…

Not sure about how the Certified Organic Farmers do it…I am watching the (not Organic) cotton crop down the back and it’s amazing…all “in a line” it is, hardly a leaf out of place…I think the Organic Farmers might have very controlled environments (No Bugs Allowed), and also they might have access to “magic” organic soil conditioners that we mere mortals can only gawp at on the TV Show “Catalyst”…or was it Australian Story???

Thanks Dinetta
I am so pleased that my own soil mix stopped the Toms getting the ‘Virus”. I think I have proved a point that I made last year re potting mixes containing the viruses.
Sorry – please don’t go way back to find it – I ranted on about the quality or lack of in ‘potting mixes’.
It is interesting how those farmers do it & like you say am sure thay have some secrets that us mere mortals will never know about.
Ho hum

possum70 said:

Thanks Dinetta
I am so pleased that my own soil mix stopped the Toms getting the ‘Virus”. I think I have proved a point that I made last year re potting mixes containing the viruses.
Sorry – please don’t go way back to find it – I ranted on about the quality or lack of in ‘potting mixes’.
It is interesting how those farmers do it & like you say am sure thay have some secrets that us mere mortals will never know about.
Ho hum

There are many bio-controls available. You just have to spend the money on them.
You can’t buy many of them at Bunnings. The cheap Chinese shop..

You need to go and talk to agricultural suppliers.

The cotton is likely GM cotton.. Whch is why it looks like nothing eats it. It has been genetically modified to be unpalatable to boll weevil and perhaps other insects as well..

roughbarked said:

The cotton is likely GM cotton.. Whch is why it looks like nothing eats it. It has been genetically modified to be unpalatable to boll weevil and perhaps other insects as well..

Hooray for GM cotton…they don’t spray as much and I (plus people in town) aren’t sick as much…let’s not go there as this battle has been fought on the local front since I’ve been here (1982)…

However I think you will find that eventually, with supply and demand, the predators will build up to knock of the bugs, but it will prolly take a couple of months…over to you RoughBarked, and other more knowledgeable folk…
————————————
gardeners can just sit and watch because these ‘good’ predators come in to your garden of their own volition.
i think it has taken the best part of five years for this patch of land to get lacewings. mites are rampant here and will remain so until the farmers stop spraying their crops. the larvae stage of the lacewing digs a cone shaped depression and waits for insects to slide in. then it erupts out from the being buried in the bottom of the cone and snatches the insect. gardening science fiction – and impossible to photograph because there’s just a cloud of dust and then the insect and lavae are gone and all is quite again.
there seems to be a longwinged and shortwinged version of the lacewing – not sure if both are lacewings?

pepe said:

However I think you will find that eventually, with supply and demand, the predators will build up to knock of the bugs, but it will prolly take a couple of months…over to you RoughBarked, and other more knowledgeable folk…
————————————
gardeners can just sit and watch because these ‘good’ predators come in to your garden of their own volition.
i think it has taken the best part of five years for this patch of land to get lacewings. mites are rampant here and will remain so until the farmers stop spraying their crops. the larvae stage of the lacewing digs a cone shaped depression and waits for insects to slide in. then it erupts out from the being buried in the bottom of the cone and snatches the insect. gardening science fiction – and impossible to photograph because there’s just a cloud of dust and then the insect and lavae are gone and all is quite again.
there seems to be a longwinged and shortwinged version of the lacewing – not sure if both are lacewings?

:) well said pepe.

lacewings? http://www.lifeunseen.com/index18.php

http://www.ento.csiro.au/education/insects/neuroptera.html

for those who want to buy them? http://www.bugsforbugs.com.au/product/lacewings-general-predators

roughbarked said:

:) well said pepe. lacewings? http://www.lifeunseen.com/index18.php

http://www.ento.csiro.au/education/insects/neuroptera.html

for those who want to buy them? http://www.bugsforbugs.com.au/product/lacewings-general-predators

Well for goodness sake! that’s what they are! I’ve always wondered, and the eggs are very common from time to time…I’ll let them hatch in future…

Dinetta said:

roughbarked said:

:) well said pepe. lacewings? http://www.lifeunseen.com/index18.php

http://www.ento.csiro.au/education/insects/neuroptera.html

for those who want to buy them? http://www.bugsforbugs.com.au/product/lacewings-general-predators

Well for goodness sake! that’s what they are! I’ve always wondered, and the eggs are very common from time to time…I’ll let them hatch in future…

That’s an interesting URL by the way, I’ve always wondered if we can buy bugs in Oz…

lacewings? http://www.lifeunseen.com/index18.php http://www.ento.csiro.au/education/insects/neuroptera.html for those who want to buy them? http://www.bugsforbugs.com.au/product/lacewings-general-predators
—————————————————————-
ta RB.

the other thing i’ve noticed is that, over a five year period, lucerne can evolve, by self-seeding, into a more mite resistant plant.
the thousands of lucerne and clover seed i planted five years ago were wiped out overnight in an incredible show of mite numbers. the few clover and lucerne survivors are now slowly regrowing in patches and are not severely effected by the mite.
it could be that the increasing numbers of predators is helping the situation.

pepe said:

lacewings? http://www.lifeunseen.com/index18.php http://www.ento.csiro.au/education/insects/neuroptera.html for those who want to buy them? http://www.bugsforbugs.com.au/product/lacewings-general-predators
—————————————————————-
ta RB.

the other thing i’ve noticed is that, over a five year period, lucerne can evolve, by self-seeding, into a more mite resistant plant.
the thousands of lucerne and clover seed i planted five years ago were wiped out overnight in an incredible show of mite numbers. the few clover and lucerne survivors are now slowly regrowing in patches and are not severely effected by the mite.
it could be that the increasing numbers of predators is helping the situation.

Yes .. in the first part there is evolution as you have suggested.. A certain maker of a glyphosate brand we all know warns us to go back and remove the weeds that were not killed, by hand. The reason is obviously evolved resistance.
Yes in the second part, as was stated in one of these threads.. There needs to be food for a predator before the predator can build in numbers.
This was easily observed with the rabbit and the fox populations. Reduce the rabbits and the foxes declined.. as the rabbits came back so did the foxes.

roughbarked said:

pepe said:

However I think you will find that eventually, with supply and demand, the predators will build up to knock of the bugs, but it will prolly take a couple of months…over to you RoughBarked, and other more knowledgeable folk…
————————————
gardeners can just sit and watch because these ‘good’ predators come in to your garden of their own volition.
i think it has taken the best part of five years for this patch of land to get lacewings. mites are rampant here and will remain so until the farmers stop spraying their crops. the larvae stage of the lacewing digs a cone shaped depression and waits for insects to slide in. then it erupts out from the being buried in the bottom of the cone and snatches the insect. gardening science fiction – and impossible to photograph because there’s just a cloud of dust and then the insect and lavae are gone and all is quite again.
there seems to be a longwinged and shortwinged version of the lacewing – not sure if both are lacewings?

:) well said pepe.

lacewings? http://www.lifeunseen.com/index18.php

http://www.ento.csiro.au/education/insects/neuroptera.html

for those who want to buy them? http://www.bugsforbugs.com.au/product/lacewings-general-predators

Cool – I was going to ask if that was the same as an antlion, but I wasn’t sure how to spell it :D I think as a kid we actually called them “antliners” for some reason!

Used to see heaps of antlion cones as a kid, at my current place I don’t think I’ve seen any, but there are stacks and stacks in the garden areas here at work..

Dinetta said:

roughbarked said:

:) well said pepe. lacewings? http://www.lifeunseen.com/index18.php

http://www.ento.csiro.au/education/insects/neuroptera.html

for those who want to buy them? http://www.bugsforbugs.com.au/product/lacewings-general-predators

Well for goodness sake! that’s what they are! I’ve always wondered, and the eggs are very common from time to time…I’ll let them hatch in future…

Huh, that’s funny. Just yesterday a colleague and I noticed a batch of eggs on stalks out near the work worm farms – I could remember reading somewhere that something lays them that way so that ants won’t eat them, but I couldn’t for the life of me remember what kind of critter lays them that way!

bon008 said:

roughbarked said:

pepe said:

However I think you will find that eventually, with supply and demand, the predators will build up to knock of the bugs, but it will prolly take a couple of months…over to you RoughBarked, and other more knowledgeable folk…
————————————
gardeners can just sit and watch because these ‘good’ predators come in to your garden of their own volition.
i think it has taken the best part of five years for this patch of land to get lacewings. mites are rampant here and will remain so until the farmers stop spraying their crops. the larvae stage of the lacewing digs a cone shaped depression and waits for insects to slide in. then it erupts out from the being buried in the bottom of the cone and snatches the insect. gardening science fiction – and impossible to photograph because there’s just a cloud of dust and then the insect and lavae are gone and all is quite again.
there seems to be a longwinged and shortwinged version of the lacewing – not sure if both are lacewings?

:) well said pepe.

lacewings? http://www.lifeunseen.com/index18.php

http://www.ento.csiro.au/education/insects/neuroptera.html

for those who want to buy them? http://www.bugsforbugs.com.au/product/lacewings-general-predators

Cool – I was going to ask if that was the same as an antlion, but I wasn’t sure how to spell it :D I think as a kid we actually called them “antliners” for some reason!

Used to see heaps of antlion cones as a kid, at my current place I don’t think I’ve seen any, but there are stacks and stacks in the garden areas here at work..

need a bit of loose sandy soil for ant lions.. also sand wasps.. plus velvet ants(female flower wasps) ;)

I was working in a citrus orchard in the nursery last summer and there was a sandy bit of road.. I spent most of my breaks squatting on the red hot sand.. http://www.flickr.com/photos/67449903@N00/3226153320/
there are a couple of pages of photos there.. http://www.flickr.com/photos/67449903@N00/3224984599/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/67449903@N00/3212476934/

roughbarked said:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/67449903@N00/3212476934/

That’s an amazing shot!

Dinetta said:

roughbarked said:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/67449903@N00/3212476934/

That’s an amazing shot!

Thanks :)

nice shots RB
wasps digging dirt between the legs ! amazing and comical.

Just took the camera out to look for ant lions and then realised .. silly drongo.. we had almost 30 mm of rain last night.. not an ant lion in sight.

Anyway I tookk a pile of other photos which I will upload later.

Have to rush to town doing errands for mrs rb.

roughbarked said:

need a bit of loose sandy soil for ant lions..

Got that coming out of my ears :D

bon008 said:

roughbarked said:

need a bit of loose sandy soil for ant lions..

Got that coming out of my ears :D

It also has to be dry

;)

now I am not one to brag but it is sure that I should say that apart from goshawks nesting over my bedroom

there are also our nocturnal tops of the foodchain.. get this sort of thing going and you will not be bothered by poisons unless the fruit fly people find that you are the only person they can talk to about control .. in the locality.

Which is why.. since we are on the subject of biological control//

I’m willing to talk about what I think i have observed and what science may possibly take that as.

Since in three decades I have taken a patch of degraded environmental system we may call a micro- ecosystem of approx 3-7 hectares.. depending upon where the influence occurs from a monoculture not native.. to a flourishing ecosystem with the top line predators happ healthy and breeding.

With little more than assisted natural rainfall.

there are now so many species of ants that I wonder how anything survives here.

roughbarked said:

there are also our nocturnal tops of the foodchain.. get this sort of thing going and you will not be bothered by poisons unless the fruit fly people find that you are the only person they can talk to about control .. in the locality.

Awwwww, so gorgeous :)

:) thanks .. I am rather chuffed about having built a food chain support that contains the top order.

back to muud wasps .. that they seal the entrance before they fill it with a spider and egg is proven here where the mud wasp chose wet concrete to build with but when the wasp came back with a spider.. it was impossible to reopen the nest.. I broke it open years later to display that it had never been filled.

This is what one looks like after the youg has dug its way out.

and a different type

That’s a lovely Boobook you have there roughbarked!

pain master said:

That’s a lovely Boobook you have there roughbarked!

yes .. it is .. a southern boobook.

roughbarked said:

pain master said:

That’s a lovely Boobook you have there roughbarked!

yes .. it is .. a southern boobook.

do you get the wedge tailed eagle out there – that would be the top predator.
the wedgee soars in the stratosphere a lot so unless you have a forested mountain range it’s impossible to get them to come and live.

i reckon the kookaburra is probably above the kite and goshawk in aerial supremacy – not sure?

pepe said:

roughbarked said:

pain master said:

That’s a lovely Boobook you have there roughbarked!

yes .. it is .. a southern boobook.

do you get the wedge tailed eagle out there – that would be the top predator.
the wedgee soars in the stratosphere a lot so unless you have a forested mountain range it’s impossible to get them to come and live.

i reckon the kookaburra is probably above the kite and goshawk in aerial supremacy – not sure?

actually the wedge tailed eagle is more of a scavenger than a hunter, although they do hunt if they have to.

bluegreen said:

pepe said:

roughbarked said:

yes .. it is .. a southern boobook.

do you get the wedge tailed eagle out there – that would be the top predator.
the wedgee soars in the stratosphere a lot so unless you have a forested mountain range it’s impossible to get them to come and live.

i reckon the kookaburra is probably above the kite and goshawk in aerial supremacy – not sure?

actually the wedge tailed eagle is more of a scavenger than a hunter, although they do hunt if they have to.

OK let’s sort the order a bit.

Wedgies really do prefer open country. Yes we get them here. Wedgies also prefer small game like rabbits or cats if they hunt for young. Mainly though they scavenge off carcasses which is why this can and does occur.

Goshawks are the top order of small birds in forest. A wedgetail couldn’t flip between the tres like a goshawk can. Infact wedgie needs quite a but of runway to lift off.

Goshawks are the top order of small birds in forest. A wedgetail couldn’t flip between the tres like a goshawk can. Infact wedgie needs quite a but of runway to lift off.
—————————————————-
ok ok ok – i may never drive again.LOL.
…. you haven’t explained tho’ -
- kookaburras are territorial and would also qualify as top order predator.
- are goshawks bigger than kites?

anyrate we are way off the wasp topic and i don’t doubt that you would know about your area very well.

peregrine falcons are probably our most frightening aerial predator.

The whole point was that a complete ecosystem has it all from wasp to eagle.

roughbarked said:

The whole point was that a complete ecosystem has it all from wasp to eagle.

indeed
not much point in discussing which are the actual start and end points tho’.

lots of old greenies (me too) refer to the top predator as the signature of a complete bio system. i see that as a bit of a shortcut to success – it probably signifies the presence of big prey and not necessarily a balance.

the balance is always changing. the frog is the most sensitive to changes and therefore the litmus test. so if frogs suddenly disappear you know something is wrong even if you do have top predators.
i think that at any one time something is always out of balance – too many spiders could signify a problem – or a good thing.

pepe said:

roughbarked said:

The whole point was that a complete ecosystem has it all from wasp to eagle.

indeed
not much point in discussing which are the actual start and end points tho’.

lots of old greenies (me too) refer to the top predator as the signature of a complete bio system. i see that as a bit of a shortcut to success – it probably signifies the presence of big prey and not necessarily a balance.

the balance is always changing. the frog is the most sensitive to changes and therefore the litmus test. so if frogs suddenly disappear you know something is wrong even if you do have top predators.
i think that at any one time something is always out of balance – too many spiders could signify a problem – or a good thing.

All true .. I suppose it could be argued that I have Goshawks , Owls because there is too much food for the small birds and rodents too. That I have no eagles because there are too many trees .
I know I only have frogs and snails and mosquitoes when there is too much water.

pepe said:

do you get the wedge tailed eagle out there – that would be the top predator.
the wedgee soars in the stratosphere a lot so unless you have a forested mountain range it’s impossible to get them to come and live.

i reckon the kookaburra is probably above the kite and goshawk in aerial supremacy – not sure?

I get Wedgies at work… but I have found that to keep the snakes out of my garden, the Goannas do a perfect job…

pain master said:

I get Wedgies at work…

how immature. I thought that sort of thing only went on in the school yard!

pain master said:

pepe said:

do you get the wedge tailed eagle out there – that would be the top predator.
the wedgee soars in the stratosphere a lot so unless you have a forested mountain range it’s impossible to get them to come and live.

i reckon the kookaburra is probably above the kite and goshawk in aerial supremacy – not sure?

I get Wedgies at work… but I have found that to keep the snakes out of my garden, the Goannas do a perfect job…

The Kookaburra and the butcherbird are feared because they hunt in coordinated packs but are nothing on the goshawk as a lone bird.
I haven’t had a kookaburra zoom through my carport and do a sharp right turn to my front door.. sit down on the path and tear the rat it just picked up in a casual manner while it was busy flying past.. Just to show me that it was doing a good job. But the goshawk has.

don’t know if any of you remember Arthur and Marta.. the two dissected rats on the inside cover of the Science texts of the sixties. The goshawk flew over my head I watched it go through the carport as I was heading in my back door.. My house is only small two three steps and I’m ale to be looking out the front door. …and the rat which I hadn’t even see the bird pick up.. was already disembowelled. Just less than a metre from where I stood and watched.

echidnas and wombats are always referred to as solitary roaming beasts who will live under a bush or a rock. but both actually live in digs – small cities of very old burrowings where their ancestors lived. usually on the north east face of a small knoll with scrub all around these traditional habitats would be the preferred home of large numbers – so if you see them moving onto your place it probably means their ancestoral digs have been destroyed.
so its not always good if you do manage to attract the top land predators.

pepe said:

echidnas and wombats are always referred to as solitary roaming beasts who will live under a bush or a rock. but both actually live in digs – small cities of very old burrowings where their ancestors lived. usually on the north east face of a small knoll with scrub all around these traditional habitats would be the preferred home of large numbers – so if you see them moving onto your place it probably means their ancestoral digs have been destroyed.
so its not always good if you do manage to attract the top land predators.

They all have to find some safe haven. I like to think that I am providing that since blue wrens nest immediately below the goshawks.

roughbarked said:

They all have to find some safe haven. I like to think that I am providing that since blue wrens nest immediately below the goshawks.

That reminds me.. a bit more of a suburban setting but the same idea.

It used to drive me CRAZY when the local paper would run hot with letters saying the local crow/raven population should be culled.

Their reasons?

1. The noise. This can’t even be dignified with a response, IMO.

2. Apparently they’re eating all the little birds. I don’t think it’s occurred to all these righteously indignant people that if you want to have honeyeaters, willy wagtails, etc – you need to provide the appropriate habitat!! My folks’ place (where I lived at the time – I think you only get these righteous folks in the Western Suburbs, haven’t seen the argument occur in the Eastern paper) had plenty of honeyeaters nesting in the yard, willy wagtails who were a constant fixture for certain months of the year, plus plenty of crows and magpies as well.

You don’t need to kill crows to get smaller birds into your yard!!!

Hmm.. for the Easties here, I suspect the “Western Suburbs” here are the equivalent of the “Eastern Suburbs” there..

roughbarked said:

Wedgies really do prefer open country. Yes we get them here. Wedgies also prefer small game like rabbits or cats if they hunt for young. Mainly though they scavenge off carcasses which is why this can and does occur.

…and this is why they recommend that you pull the road kill off to the side of the road…it gives the wedgies a chance…

>…and this is why they recommend that you pull the road kill off to the side of the road…it gives the wedgies a chance…

Yes, but unlikely the driver of a road train would see the value in stopping a 100 tonne rig to possibly save some bird…

Pity.

pain master said:

but I have found that to keep the snakes out of my garden, the Goannas do a perfect job…

They also do a good job of getting rid of incubating eggs if the hen gets off the nest and they can get access. This happened to ours the other day while I was away. MrS hadn’t completing enclosed the area where the hen was setting the eggs and when she got off for a bit of food and exercise the goanna stole the eggs. :( MrS said he was a big one too.

Sounds like the one who regularly comes around at this time of year. William (the mighty Jack Russell X ) did nothing apart from chase the goanna up a tree and stand there barking, apparently.