Bushfires have burned around 5 million hectares of the Australian mainland during this season, an area bigger than Switzerland.

It is somewhat more common for Catastrophic Fire Danger conditions to exist than was once the case. More frequent droughts mean there will on average be more combustible material available.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/live/2019/dec/24/australia-fires-volunteers-bushfires-new-south-wales-south-australia-victoria-live-latest-updates

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/nov/22/australia-bushfires-factcheck-are-this-years-fires-unprecedented

Volunteer firefighters, as organisations and as individuals, are stretched to and past the limit. This is an unusually bad year, and it is normally a bad idea to change policy on the basis of a black swan event, but this isn’t the first time that this is has happened to the volunteers. They are out of pocket, missing out on income after a month of volunteer work, having to crowdfund their gear in some cases.

Is it time to move past the idea of relying on volunteers to this extent, and instead treat it as an essential government service like urban firefighting or policing? There are already seasonal paid Forest Fire management staff but there’s plenty of scope to ramp up. The main arguments against relying on paid staff is that risk is seasonal, and one summer will be different to the next, so it would not be cost efficient to have a large paid standby force, but there must be some way to do it.

e.g.

• increase general forest management staff to the point where they can cover bushfire management when need be: in the winter time they can be assigned
• increase seasonal forest management employment (some people are fine with just having summer jobs)
• convert the current volunteer forces to paid reservists, given a stipend to be “ready” through weekend training etc, and only called up when situations can’t be dealt with by the full time professional forces, through specific announcements of Emergency status. These call-ups would be mandatory, such that no non-emergency employer can block it (similar to jury duty I suppose), with proper remuneration.

I’m speaking mainly in ignorance, but the current situation seems so unfair and unsustainable that I feel that there must be a better idea somewhere. Some of you know a lot about this and I’d love to hear your ideas.

dv said:

More frequent droughts mean there will on average be more combustible material available.

Are droughts actually becoming more frequent?

dv said:

Bushfires have burned around 5 million hectares of the Australian mainland during this season, an area bigger than Switzerland.

It is somewhat more common for Catastrophic Fire Danger conditions to exist than was once the case. More frequent droughts mean there will on average be more combustible material available.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/live/2019/dec/24/australia-fires-volunteers-bushfires-new-south-wales-south-australia-victoria-live-latest-updates

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/nov/22/australia-bushfires-factcheck-are-this-years-fires-unprecedented

Volunteer firefighters, as organisations and as individuals, are stretched to and past the limit. This is an unusually bad year, and it is normally a bad idea to change policy on the basis of a black swan event, but this isn’t the first time that this is has happened to the volunteers. They are out of pocket, missing out on income after a month of volunteer work, having to crowdfund their gear in some cases.

Is it time to move past the idea of relying on volunteers to this extent, and instead treat it as an essential government service like urban firefighting or policing? There are already seasonal paid Forest Fire management staff but there’s plenty of scope to ramp up. The main arguments against relying on paid staff is that risk is seasonal, and one summer will be different to the next, so it would not be cost efficient to have a large paid standby force, but there must be some way to do it.

e.g.

• increase general forest management staff to the point where they can cover bushfire management when need be: in the winter time they can be assigned
• increase seasonal forest management employment (some people are fine with just having summer jobs)
• convert the current volunteer forces to paid reservists, given a stipend to be “ready” through weekend training etc, and only called up when situations can’t be dealt with by the full time professional forces, through specific announcements of Emergency status. These call-ups would be mandatory, such that no non-emergency employer can block it (similar to jury duty I suppose), with proper remuneration.

I’m speaking mainly in ignorance, but the current situation seems so unfair and unsustainable that I feel that there must be a better idea somewhere. Some of you know a lot about this and I’d love to hear your ideas.

Problem lies in numbers. Qld has 32000 volunteer members no doubt other States have similar numbers. We need more as many of us are in our 70s & thus don’t have the physical endurance of younger members.
Things like more & better firebreaks would help as well as fuel reduction programs.

sibeen said:

dv said:

More frequent droughts mean there will on average be more combustible material available.

Are droughts actually becoming more frequent?

It would be fair to say there is some uncertainty about that issue: it’s a statistical issue that is open to analysis. But the view from the BOM’s State of the Climate reports and the IPCC outcomes reports is that it is probably the case, and it is probably the case that severe drought will become more frequent in the south of the nation in the future (with more rainfall in the north).

dv said:

sibeen said:

dv said:

More frequent droughts mean there will on average be more combustible material available.

Are droughts actually becoming more frequent?

It would be fair to say there is some uncertainty about that issue: it’s a statistical issue that is open to analysis. But the view from the BOM’s State of the Climate reports and the IPCC outcomes reports is that it is probably the case, and it is probably the case that severe drought will become more frequent in the south of the nation in the future (with more rainfall in the north).

Looking at the BoM’s charts on average annual rainfall over the last 120 years or so rainfall has increased in Australia as a whole. Victoria and Tasmania have had small declines over that time and all other states have had an increase.

sibeen said:

dv said:

sibeen said:

Are droughts actually becoming more frequent?

It would be fair to say there is some uncertainty about that issue: it’s a statistical issue that is open to analysis. But the view from the BOM’s State of the Climate reports and the IPCC outcomes reports is that it is probably the case, and it is probably the case that severe drought will become more frequent in the south of the nation in the future (with more rainfall in the north).

Looking at the BoM’s charts on average annual rainfall over the last 120 years or so rainfall has increased in Australia as a whole. Victoria and Tasmania have had small declines over that time and all other states have had an increase.

Droughts and flooding rains. Not much point having the rain all arrive at once.

sibeen said:

dv said:

sibeen said:

Are droughts actually becoming more frequent?

It would be fair to say there is some uncertainty about that issue: it’s a statistical issue that is open to analysis. But the view from the BOM’s State of the Climate reports and the IPCC outcomes reports is that it is probably the case, and it is probably the case that severe drought will become more frequent in the south of the nation in the future (with more rainfall in the north).

Looking at the BoM’s charts on average annual rainfall over the last 120 years or so rainfall has increased in Australia as a whole. Victoria and Tasmania have had small declines over that time and all other states have had an increase.

Right, but frequency of droughts isn’t about a decline in overall rainfall. It’s about an increase in variation due to a more intense La Nina/El Nino cycle.

imagine big money falling back on volunteerism, complete unsurprise, dig more coal up, burn the stuff, push the thermostat up, get volunteers to to put the bushfires out

like someone once said, a culture more relying on volunteerism and philanthropy is probably failing

Tamb said:

Problem lies in numbers. Qld has 32000 volunteer members no doubt other States have similar numbers. We need more as many of us are in our 70s & thus don’t have the physical endurance of younger members.

Problems lie in every aspect of the service, IME:

Stop the fire agencies telling bald-faced lies about their numbers and capacity to respond.
Stop the bureaucrats from over-loading the volunteers with bullshit work-making processes.
Break up the entrenched organisational inertia.
Adopt transparent leadership practices that expose and combat corruption and discrimination.
Find and destroy silos, duplication of resources and effort, and lack of inter-operability.
When a Commissioner of the Victorian Equal Opportunity and Human Rights Commission releases a report on her investigation into bullying, sexual harassment and discrimination in the state’s fire services, don’t fucken suppress it!

In Vic, we claim to have 50,000 CFA volunters, but if you were to look at the number who are competent and qualified to fight any type of fire, it would less than one tenth of that. Time to decide what a current, active, qualified, available, deployable, suitable and skilled firefighter is. If we evaluated the organisation against worlds best practice, they’re not capable of meeting the day-to-day needs of their own communities – A large incident (bushfire) is immediately beyond their capacity to offer any timely or effective response.

sibeen said:

dv said:

More frequent droughts mean there will on average be more combustible material available.

Are droughts actually becoming more frequent?

They are prolonging and thus becoming more severe.

> Is it time to move past the idea of relying on volunteers to this extent, and instead treat it as an essential government service like urban firefighting or policing?

Bushfire management reform for me is more hazard reduction in cooler weather. Neither more nor less than that.

sibeen said:

dv said:

sibeen said:

Are droughts actually becoming more frequent?

It would be fair to say there is some uncertainty about that issue: it’s a statistical issue that is open to analysis. But the view from the BOM’s State of the Climate reports and the IPCC outcomes reports is that it is probably the case, and it is probably the case that severe drought will become more frequent in the south of the nation in the future (with more rainfall in the north).

Looking at the BoM’s charts on average annual rainfall over the last 120 years or so rainfall has increased in Australia as a whole. Victoria and Tasmania have had small declines over that time and all other states have had an increase.

Overall? Most of the state is west of the divide. Most of the rain falls east of the same.

Rule 303 said:

Tamb said:

Problem lies in numbers. Qld has 32000 volunteer members no doubt other States have similar numbers. We need more as many of us are in our 70s & thus don’t have the physical endurance of younger members.

Problems lie in every aspect of the service, IME:

Stop the fire agencies telling bald-faced lies about their numbers and capacity to respond.
Stop the bureaucrats from over-loading the volunteers with bullshit work-making processes.
Break up the entrenched organisational inertia.
Adopt transparent leadership practices that expose and combat corruption and discrimination.
Find and destroy silos, duplication of resources and effort, and lack of inter-operability.
When a Commissioner of the Victorian Equal Opportunity and Human Rights Commission releases a report on her investigation into bullying, sexual harassment and discrimination in the state’s fire services, don’t fucken suppress it!

In Vic, we claim to have 50,000 CFA volunters, but if you were to look at the number who are competent and qualified to fight any type of fire, it would less than one tenth of that. Time to decide what a current, active, qualified, available, deployable, suitable and skilled firefighter is. If we evaluated the organisation against worlds best practice, they’re not capable of meeting the day-to-day needs of their own communities – A large incident (bushfire) is immediately beyond their capacity to offer any timely or effective response.

Great response, thanks Rule.

“Adopt transparent leadership practices that expose and combat corruption and discrimination.”

Can you tell me more about the corruption and discrimination?

“Find and destroy silos”

Does that become a major problem?

Right, but frequency of droughts isn’t about a decline in overall rainfall. It’s about an increase in variation due to a more intense La Nina/El Nino cycle.

—-

Not to mention SAM, MJO and IOD

The Greens had a policy about fire. Before the election the Labor party introduced one. I think the Libs think that the Labor party one is too close to the policy being sought by the retired fire chiefs who can’t even get a foot in the door to talk to a Lib because they are Flannery supporters. I support the idea of a summit because I would like to know who reckons what. I hope someone suggests some airborne additions because that is a Federal thing to be do.

Fire emergencies are state responsibilities. ScoMo doesn’t want to lose one dollar of Fed to States. But when Qld, NSW, Vic, SA, and WA are all on fire why can’t that constitute a Federal response.

Meantime a one off donation of a full kit for each volunteer that has been active is the last three months so they retire their outfits to spares seems like the very fn least we can do.

Rule 303 said:

Tamb said:

Problem lies in numbers. Qld has 32000 volunteer members no doubt other States have similar numbers. We need more as many of us are in our 70s & thus don’t have the physical endurance of younger members.

Problems lie in every aspect of the service, IME:

Stop the fire agencies telling bald-faced lies about their numbers and capacity to respond.
Stop the bureaucrats from over-loading the volunteers with bullshit work-making processes.
Break up the entrenched organisational inertia.
Adopt transparent leadership practices that expose and combat corruption and discrimination.
Find and destroy silos, duplication of resources and effort, and lack of inter-operability.
When a Commissioner of the Victorian Equal Opportunity and Human Rights Commission releases a report on her investigation into bullying, sexual harassment and discrimination in the state’s fire services, don’t fucken suppress it!

In Vic, we claim to have 50,000 CFA volunters, but if you were to look at the number who are competent and qualified to fight any type of fire, it would less than one tenth of that. Time to decide what a current, active, qualified, available, deployable, suitable and skilled firefighter is. If we evaluated the organisation against worlds best practice, they’re not capable of meeting the day-to-day needs of their own communities – A large incident (bushfire) is immediately beyond their capacity to offer any timely or effective response.

In Qld we have Urban and Rural services. The fires are totally different & require totally different training & equipment.

Ian said:

Right, but frequency of droughts isn’t about a decline in overall rainfall. It’s about an increase in variation due to a more intense La Nina/El Nino cycle.

—-

Not to mention SAM, MJO and IOD

I’m not up on the MJO.

mollwollfumble said:

> Is it time to move past the idea of relying on volunteers to this extent, and instead treat it as an essential government service like urban firefighting or policing?

Bushfire management reform for me is more hazard reduction in cooler weather. Neither more nor less than that.

They’re already burning everything they can safely burn.

Many areas can’t be burnt.

Burning offers only partial protection at best; Bush can re-burn two and three times after it’s been hazard-reduction burnt.

Burning is never 100% safe in and of itself, and often starts bushfires that go out of control.

Maybe the reservists could do the backburning and fire management burns during the late winter or early spring, or whenever is the best time to do that sort of thing.

If we can find some other use for them during the winter, they could go full time. Maybe eradicating feral animals programs or or invasive plant species or something. Some other good-ish environmental purpose.

party_pants said:

Maybe the reservists could do the backburning and fire management burns during the late winter or early spring, or whenever is the best time to do that sort of thing.

If we can find some other use for them during the winter, they could go full time. Maybe eradicating feral animals programs or or invasive plant species or something. Some other good-ish environmental purpose.

Reservists?

party_pants said:

Maybe the reservists could do the backburning and fire management burns during the late winter or early spring, or whenever is the best time to do that sort of thing.

If we can find some other use for them during the winter, they could go full time. Maybe eradicating feral animals programs or or invasive plant species or something. Some other good-ish environmental purpose.

p_p Not backburning. That is a fire lit to stop the main fire breaching a containment line.

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

Maybe the reservists could do the backburning and fire management burns during the late winter or early spring, or whenever is the best time to do that sort of thing.

If we can find some other use for them during the winter, they could go full time. Maybe eradicating feral animals programs or or invasive plant species or something. Some other good-ish environmental purpose.

Reservists?

Well, they’d be full timers so not reservists. Somebody was talking about setting up a reservist system with fire-fighters on call during the fire season, and presumably going back to some ordinary work during the winter. I was thinking to extend that to full time if we can find some other work for them to do when there is not a bushfire emergency going on.

Tamb said:

party_pants said:

Maybe the reservists could do the backburning and fire management burns during the late winter or early spring, or whenever is the best time to do that sort of thing.

If we can find some other use for them during the winter, they could go full time. Maybe eradicating feral animals programs or or invasive plant species or something. Some other good-ish environmental purpose.

p_p Not backburning. That is a fire lit to stop the main fire breaching a containment line.

OK, amend the wording to suit – hazard reduction burns or something like that.

party_pants said:

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

Maybe the reservists could do the backburning and fire management burns during the late winter or early spring, or whenever is the best time to do that sort of thing.

If we can find some other use for them during the winter, they could go full time. Maybe eradicating feral animals programs or or invasive plant species or something. Some other good-ish environmental purpose.

Reservists?

Well, they’d be full timers so not reservists. Somebody was talking about setting up a reservist system with fire-fighters on call during the fire season, and presumably going back to some ordinary work during the winter. I was thinking to extend that to full time if we can find some other work for them to do when there is not a bushfire emergency going on.

Ahh, I thought you may have meant Army Reserve and I didn’t like that idea.

party_pants said:

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

Maybe the reservists could do the backburning and fire management burns during the late winter or early spring, or whenever is the best time to do that sort of thing.

If we can find some other use for them during the winter, they could go full time. Maybe eradicating feral animals programs or or invasive plant species or something. Some other good-ish environmental purpose.

Reservists?

Well, they’d be full timers so not reservists. Somebody was talking about setting up a reservist system with fire-fighters on call during the fire season, and presumably going back to some ordinary work during the winter. I was thinking to extend that to full time if we can find some other work for them to do when there is not a bushfire emergency going on.

Qld Rural firefighters already do something like that. On call 24/7/365 but lead normal lives until called out or training or maintaining equipment.

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

sibeen said:

Reservists?

Well, they’d be full timers so not reservists. Somebody was talking about setting up a reservist system with fire-fighters on call during the fire season, and presumably going back to some ordinary work during the winter. I was thinking to extend that to full time if we can find some other work for them to do when there is not a bushfire emergency going on.

Ahh, I thought you may have meant Army Reserve and I didn’t like that idea.

No. Army reservists should be taught to kill people and break stuff, and leave it at that.

Some sort of civilian emergency services bureau. I guess they could do floods and tropical cyclones too.

party_pants said:

Tamb said:

party_pants said:

Maybe the reservists could do the backburning and fire management burns during the late winter or early spring, or whenever is the best time to do that sort of thing.

If we can find some other use for them during the winter, they could go full time. Maybe eradicating feral animals programs or or invasive plant species or something. Some other good-ish environmental purpose.

p_p Not backburning. That is a fire lit to stop the main fire breaching a containment line.

OK, amend the wording to suit – hazard reduction burns or something like that.

Nothing personal mate. I only pick that one up because the term is misused quite often by the media & IMO we should strive for correct terminology so as not to confuse the public.

party_pants said:

sibeen said:

party_pants said:

Well, they’d be full timers so not reservists. Somebody was talking about setting up a reservist system with fire-fighters on call during the fire season, and presumably going back to some ordinary work during the winter. I was thinking to extend that to full time if we can find some other work for them to do when there is not a bushfire emergency going on.

Ahh, I thought you may have meant Army Reserve and I didn’t like that idea.

No. Army reservists should be taught to kill people and break stuff, and leave it at that.

Some sort of civilian emergency services bureau. I guess they could do floods and tropical cyclones too.

Like the SES?

dv said:

Great response, thanks Rule.

“Adopt transparent leadership practices that expose and combat corruption and discrimination.”

Can you tell me more about the corruption and discrimination?

“Find and destroy silos”

Does that become a major problem?

The corruption takes all the forms that one should expect to find at state government departments, plus a special one we call ‘noble-cause corruption’, which exists at the branch level.

The discrimination is more likely to be hidden in policy or tacet in apparent thoughtlessness. It spans many areas of operation: Uniforms that don’t fit women, lack of integration for people with disabilities, exclusion of diversity (in general), lockers that are too high, tools that are too heavy, selection of perceived characteristics as desirable for positions of responsibility… It’s insidious and pervasive.

Tamb said:

party_pants said:

sibeen said:

Ahh, I thought you may have meant Army Reserve and I didn’t like that idea.

No. Army reservists should be taught to kill people and break stuff, and leave it at that.

Some sort of civilian emergency services bureau. I guess they could do floods and tropical cyclones too.

Like the SES?

No. Full time professionals. Something like a cross between fire fighters and park rangers. Fighting fires and attending to floods would be just one aspect of the job, when there is no emergency going on they can be trapping and shooting feral cats, or poisoning willow trees, or gathering cane toads.

Well equipped with all the latest Russian and Chinese gear :)

party_pants said:

Tamb said:

party_pants said:

No. Army reservists should be taught to kill people and break stuff, and leave it at that.

Some sort of civilian emergency services bureau. I guess they could do floods and tropical cyclones too.

Like the SES?

No. Full time professionals. Something like a cross between fire fighters and park rangers. Fighting fires and attending to floods would be just one aspect of the job, when there is no emergency going on they can be trapping and shooting feral cats, or poisoning willow trees, or gathering cane toads.

Well equipped with all the latest Russian and Chinese gear :)

The Green Army?

Trev-: G’day Daveo, what’s happening.
Daveo-: Nothing much mate, got the Mrs birthday coming up, she wants to go to Surfers, could do with a few extra bob.
Trev-: Well Barry wants that bush down near the river cleared out, if you know what I mean.
Daveo-: If we set fire to it on Friday and put it out over the weekend we’ll get double time.
Trev-: No worries.

party_pants said:

Tamb said:

party_pants said:

No. Army reservists should be taught to kill people and break stuff, and leave it at that.

Some sort of civilian emergency services bureau. I guess they could do floods and tropical cyclones too.

Like the SES?

No. Full time professionals. Something like a cross between fire fighters and park rangers. Fighting fires and attending to floods would be just one aspect of the job, when there is no emergency going on they can be trapping and shooting feral cats, or poisoning willow trees, or gathering cane toads.

Well equipped with all the latest Russian and Chinese gear :)

You’re in WA aren’t you, P_P? Your DCALM do that stuff, as do our DELWP in Vic, (except floods, which are SES responsibility everywhere). DELWP also hires and trains hundreds of seasonal firefighters in Spring each year.

roughbarked said:

party_pants said:

Tamb said:

Like the SES?

No. Full time professionals. Something like a cross between fire fighters and park rangers. Fighting fires and attending to floods would be just one aspect of the job, when there is no emergency going on they can be trapping and shooting feral cats, or poisoning willow trees, or gathering cane toads.

Well equipped with all the latest Russian and Chinese gear :)

The Green Army?

Well, we’ll put the naming of it in the hands of a committee from marketing.

party_pants said:

roughbarked said:

party_pants said:

No. Full time professionals. Something like a cross between fire fighters and park rangers. Fighting fires and attending to floods would be just one aspect of the job, when there is no emergency going on they can be trapping and shooting feral cats, or poisoning willow trees, or gathering cane toads.

Well equipped with all the latest Russian and Chinese gear :)

The Green Army?

Well, we’ll put the naming of it in the hands of a committee from marketing.

No Tony Abbott already did it.

Peak Warming Man said:

Trev-: G’day Daveo, what’s happening.
Daveo-: Nothing much mate, got the Mrs birthday coming up, she wants to go to Surfers, could do with a few extra bob.
Trev-: Well Barry wants that bush down near the river cleared out, if you know what I mean.
Daveo-: If we set fire to it on Friday and put it out over the weekend we’ll get double time.
Trev-: No worries.

There was a news item about an Urban bloke who was starting fires so he would get called out.
Caught, charged & convicted.

Tamb said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Trev-: G’day Daveo, what’s happening.
Daveo-: Nothing much mate, got the Mrs birthday coming up, she wants to go to Surfers, could do with a few extra bob.
Trev-: Well Barry wants that bush down near the river cleared out, if you know what I mean.
Daveo-: If we set fire to it on Friday and put it out over the weekend we’ll get double time.
Trev-: No worries.

There was a news item about an Urban bloke who was starting fires so he would get called out.
Caught, charged & convicted.

I know of two arsonist from local brigades over the last couple of decades.

sibeen said:

dv said:

sibeen said:

Are droughts actually becoming more frequent?

It would be fair to say there is some uncertainty about that issue: it’s a statistical issue that is open to analysis. But the view from the BOM’s State of the Climate reports and the IPCC outcomes reports is that it is probably the case, and it is probably the case that severe drought will become more frequent in the south of the nation in the future (with more rainfall in the north).

Looking at the BoM’s charts on average annual rainfall over the last 120 years or so rainfall has increased in Australia as a whole. Victoria and Tasmania have had small declines over that time and all other states have had an increase.

SW WA has had quite a large decrease afaiaa

Tamb said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Trev-: G’day Daveo, what’s happening.
Daveo-: Nothing much mate, got the Mrs birthday coming up, she wants to go to Surfers, could do with a few extra bob.
Trev-: Well Barry wants that bush down near the river cleared out, if you know what I mean.
Daveo-: If we set fire to it on Friday and put it out over the weekend we’ll get double time.
Trev-: No worries.

There was a news item about an Urban bloke who was starting fires so he would get called out.
Caught, charged & convicted.

Happens much more often than we hear about it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madden–Julian_oscillation

Ian said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madden–Julian_oscillation

Ooohh
“Cyclogenesis is the development or strengthening of cyclonic circulation in the atmosphere (a low-pressure area). Cyclogenesis is an umbrella term for at least three different processes, all of which result in the development of some sort of cyclone, and at any size from the microscale to the synoptic scale.”

Interesting read.

Like most things we are at a disadvantage in the tyranny of distance v population. Plus individual liberty, people like to live amongst the gum trees. I guess more of the same but with some legislative protection.

Resources, a payment system when called out shared between an employer (unless govt) and the employee and paid by federal and insurance companies. Consider a levy

Equipment and training, paid for by state and local govt and insurance companies.

Now that you have resources lower the thresholds for environmental burns, reduce exemptions. Look at insurance situation.

Some buildings standards.

Shit happens.

AwesomeO said:

Like most things we are at a disadvantage in the tyranny of distance v population. Plus individual liberty, people like to live amongst the gum trees. I guess more of the same but with some legislative protection.

Resources, a payment system when called out shared between an employer (unless govt) and the employee and paid by federal and insurance companies. Consider a levy

Equipment and training, paid for by state and local govt and insurance companies.

Now that you have resources lower the thresholds for environmental burns, reduce exemptions. Look at insurance situation.

Some buildings standards.

Shit happens.

I pay a fire levy in my rates. There are no promises but there is a payment.

sarahs mum said:

AwesomeO said:

Like most things we are at a disadvantage in the tyranny of distance v population. Plus individual liberty, people like to live amongst the gum trees. I guess more of the same but with some legislative protection.

Resources, a payment system when called out shared between an employer (unless govt) and the employee and paid by federal and insurance companies. Consider a levy

Equipment and training, paid for by state and local govt and insurance companies.

Now that you have resources lower the thresholds for environmental burns, reduce exemptions. Look at insurance situation.

Some buildings standards.

Shit happens.

I pay a fire levy in my rates. There are no promises but there is a payment.

Yeah local fort applies a levy here as well. There can be others, rego for eg. State via stamp duties. Feds via immigration/infrastructure. The trick is plucking the goose without killing it.

sarahs mum said:

AwesomeO said:

Like most things we are at a disadvantage in the tyranny of distance v population. Plus individual liberty, people like to live amongst the gum trees. I guess more of the same but with some legislative protection.

Resources, a payment system when called out shared between an employer (unless govt) and the employee and paid by federal and insurance companies. Consider a levy

Equipment and training, paid for by state and local govt and insurance companies.

Now that you have resources lower the thresholds for environmental burns, reduce exemptions. Look at insurance situation.

Some buildings standards.

Shit happens.

I pay a fire levy in my rates. There are no promises but there is a payment.

That is an equipment levy. IMO all equipment should be govt funded but quickly available eg if a tyre is staked another should be available within 30 minutes, not after the request (In triplicate) is passed through 15 different govt departments.

Peak Warming Man said:

Trev-: G’day Daveo, what’s happening.
Daveo-: Nothing much mate, got the Mrs birthday coming up, she wants to go to Surfers, could do with a few extra bob.
Trev-: Well Barry wants that bush down near the river cleared out, if you know what I mean.
Daveo-: If we set fire to it on Friday and put it out over the weekend we’ll get double time.
Trev-: No worries.

You could use the same argument to say that we shouldn’t have professional firefighters in the city

Rule 303 said:

dv said:

Great response, thanks Rule.

“Adopt transparent leadership practices that expose and combat corruption and discrimination.”

Can you tell me more about the corruption and discrimination?

“Find and destroy silos”

Does that become a major problem?

The corruption takes all the forms that one should expect to find at state government departments, plus a special one we call ‘noble-cause corruption’, which exists at the branch level.

The discrimination is more likely to be hidden in policy or tacet in apparent thoughtlessness. It spans many areas of operation: Uniforms that don’t fit women, lack of integration for people with disabilities, exclusion of diversity (in general), lockers that are too high, tools that are too heavy, selection of perceived characteristics as desirable for positions of responsibility… It’s insidious and pervasive.

Very interesting. Can you give me an example of noble cause corruption?

dv said:

Rule 303 said:

dv said:

Great response, thanks Rule.

“Adopt transparent leadership practices that expose and combat corruption and discrimination.”

Can you tell me more about the corruption and discrimination?

“Find and destroy silos”

Does that become a major problem?

The corruption takes all the forms that one should expect to find at state government departments, plus a special one we call ‘noble-cause corruption’, which exists at the branch level.

The discrimination is more likely to be hidden in policy or tacet in apparent thoughtlessness. It spans many areas of operation: Uniforms that don’t fit women, lack of integration for people with disabilities, exclusion of diversity (in general), lockers that are too high, tools that are too heavy, selection of perceived characteristics as desirable for positions of responsibility… It’s insidious and pervasive.

Very interesting. Can you give me an example of noble cause corruption?

Inspector Harry Callahan.

AwesomeO said:

dv said:

Rule 303 said:

The corruption takes all the forms that one should expect to find at state government departments, plus a special one we call ‘noble-cause corruption’, which exists at the branch level.

The discrimination is more likely to be hidden in policy or tacet in apparent thoughtlessness. It spans many areas of operation: Uniforms that don’t fit women, lack of integration for people with disabilities, exclusion of diversity (in general), lockers that are too high, tools that are too heavy, selection of perceived characteristics as desirable for positions of responsibility… It’s insidious and pervasive.

Very interesting. Can you give me an example of noble cause corruption?

Inspector Harry Callahan.

Most amusing, but I meant in the nonfiction realm of Australian rural firefighting…

dv said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Trev-: G’day Daveo, what’s happening.
Daveo-: Nothing much mate, got the Mrs birthday coming up, she wants to go to Surfers, could do with a few extra bob.
Trev-: Well Barry wants that bush down near the river cleared out, if you know what I mean.
Daveo-: If we set fire to it on Friday and put it out over the weekend we’ll get double time.
Trev-: No worries.

You could use the same argument to say that we shouldn’t have professional firefighters in the city

Based on the reports from Finance people at the Bairnsdale incident command centre last week, big fires cost about $1/Ha/day, not including wages – a cost which is met straight out of state money (not the recumbent budgets of the response agencies). The states are effectively self-insuring against this.

dv said:

AwesomeO said:

dv said:

Very interesting. Can you give me an example of noble cause corruption?

Inspector Harry Callahan.

Most amusing, but I meant in the nonfiction realm of Australian rural firefighting…

Would not reporting a marijuana crop be a contender.

dv said:

Rule 303 said:

dv said:

Great response, thanks Rule.

“Adopt transparent leadership practices that expose and combat corruption and discrimination.”

Can you tell me more about the corruption and discrimination?

“Find and destroy silos”

Does that become a major problem?

The corruption takes all the forms that one should expect to find at state government departments, plus a special one we call ‘noble-cause corruption’, which exists at the branch level.

The discrimination is more likely to be hidden in policy or tacet in apparent thoughtlessness. It spans many areas of operation: Uniforms that don’t fit women, lack of integration for people with disabilities, exclusion of diversity (in general), lockers that are too high, tools that are too heavy, selection of perceived characteristics as desirable for positions of responsibility… It’s insidious and pervasive.

Very interesting. Can you give me an example of noble cause corruption?

Any act done to conceal (or not done to expose) dishonesty or perversion of proper process because a person is perceived as acting for the greater good. As above, it has many heads, from letting a volunteer fireman borrow a ute to feed his cows, to substituting your favourite fireman’s name on a training course.

Tamb said:

dv said:

AwesomeO said:

Inspector Harry Callahan.

Most amusing, but I meant in the nonfiction realm of Australian rural firefighting…

Would not reporting a marijuana crop be a contender.

Yes, if it belonged to one of the Fireys!

Rule 303 said:

Tamb said:

dv said:

Most amusing, but I meant in the nonfiction realm of Australian rural firefighting…

Would not reporting a marijuana crop be a contender.

Yes, if it belonged to one of the Fireys!

It was a public relations exercise. Fireys need unhindered access to properties so the tend to be “I know nothing” people in a case like this. Or so I was told.

Tamb said:

Rule 303 said:

Tamb said:

Would not reporting a marijuana crop be a contender.

Yes, if it belonged to one of the Fireys!

It was a public relations exercise. Fireys need unhindered access to properties so the tend to be “I know nothing” people in a case like this. Or so I was told.

There is a pretty strong public safety argument in its favour.

Same as the policy that many paramedical service have about not reporting overdose of illicit drugs.

sibeen said:

dv said:

sibeen said:

Are droughts actually becoming more frequent?

It would be fair to say there is some uncertainty about that issue: it’s a statistical issue that is open to analysis. But the view from the BOM’s State of the Climate reports and the IPCC outcomes reports is that it is probably the case, and it is probably the case that severe drought will become more frequent in the south of the nation in the future (with more rainfall in the north).

Looking at the BoM’s charts on average annual rainfall over the last 120 years or so rainfall has increased in Australia as a whole. Victoria and Tasmania have had small declines over that time and all other states have had an increase.

Australia being a big country has many climate zones where a high northern rainfall can distort southern rainfall figures. Also the southern portion of Australia have a largely winter rainfall period, whilst northern parts tend to be heaviest over summer.

The CSIRO map below shows the declining rainfall during the normally wettest time of the year in southern Australia, which as you can see is extensive and widespread.

https://www.csiro.au/en/Research/OandA/Areas/Assessing-our-climate/State-of-the-Climate-2018/Australias-changing-climate

AwesomeO said:

Like most things we are at a disadvantage in the tyranny of distance v population. Plus individual liberty, people like to live amongst the gum trees. I guess more of the same but with some legislative protection.

Resources, a payment system when called out shared between an employer (unless govt) and the employee and paid by federal and insurance companies. Consider a levy

Equipment and training, paid for by state and local govt and insurance companies.

Now that you have resources lower the thresholds for environmental burns, reduce exemptions. Look at insurance situation.

Some buildings standards.

Shit happens.

>>Resources, a payment system when called out shared between an employer (unless govt) and the employee and paid by federal and insurance companies. Consider a levy<<

As a (recently closed) long term micro employer, this would have bankrupted me. I simply could not have managed with staff away for more than a few days if I had to keep paying them at any level.

buffy said:

AwesomeO said:

Like most things we are at a disadvantage in the tyranny of distance v population. Plus individual liberty, people like to live amongst the gum trees. I guess more of the same but with some legislative protection.

Resources, a payment system when called out shared between an employer (unless govt) and the employee and paid by federal and insurance companies. Consider a levy

Equipment and training, paid for by state and local govt and insurance companies.

Now that you have resources lower the thresholds for environmental burns, reduce exemptions. Look at insurance situation.

Some buildings standards.

Shit happens.

>>Resources, a payment system when called out shared between an employer (unless govt) and the employee and paid by federal and insurance companies. Consider a levy<<

As a (recently closed) long term micro employer, this would have bankrupted me. I simply could not have managed with staff away for more than a few days if I had to keep paying them at any level.

Fair enough, these things are usually directed at larger employers, and the reason why I include fed and insurance is to maintain the volunteer ethos, the govt pays the employee a certain amount, not a replacement wage and the insurance company pays the employer a certain amount, again not a replacement wage but a recognition of being mucked about and reduce the strain a bit.

AwesomeO said:

buffy said:

AwesomeO said:

Like most things we are at a disadvantage in the tyranny of distance v population. Plus individual liberty, people like to live amongst the gum trees. I guess more of the same but with some legislative protection.

Resources, a payment system when called out shared between an employer (unless govt) and the employee and paid by federal and insurance companies. Consider a levy

Equipment and training, paid for by state and local govt and insurance companies.

Now that you have resources lower the thresholds for environmental burns, reduce exemptions. Look at insurance situation.

Some buildings standards.

Shit happens.

>>Resources, a payment system when called out shared between an employer (unless govt) and the employee and paid by federal and insurance companies. Consider a levy<<

As a (recently closed) long term micro employer, this would have bankrupted me. I simply could not have managed with staff away for more than a few days if I had to keep paying them at any level.

Fair enough, these things are usually directed at larger employers, and the reason why I include fed and insurance is to maintain the volunteer ethos, the govt pays the employee a certain amount, not a replacement wage and the insurance company pays the employer a certain amount, again not a replacement wage but a recognition of being mucked about and reduce the strain a bit.

Ahh, I reread, you wouldn’t be paying them, the govt would pay the volunteer a certain amount, and the insurance company would pay you a certain amount to keep you sweet about losing an employee.

buffy said:

AwesomeO said:

Like most things we are at a disadvantage in the tyranny of distance v population. Plus individual liberty, people like to live amongst the gum trees. I guess more of the same but with some legislative protection.

Resources, a payment system when called out shared between an employer (unless govt) and the employee and paid by federal and insurance companies. Consider a levy

Equipment and training, paid for by state and local govt and insurance companies.

Now that you have resources lower the thresholds for environmental burns, reduce exemptions. Look at insurance situation.

Some buildings standards.

Shit happens.

>>Resources, a payment system when called out shared between an employer (unless govt) and the employee and paid by federal and insurance companies. Consider a levy<<

As a (recently closed) long term micro employer, this would have bankrupted me. I simply could not have managed with staff away for more than a few days if I had to keep paying them at any level.

I think you misread. The payment goes to employee and employer, from the government.

AwesomeO said:

AwesomeO said:

buffy said:

>>Resources, a payment system when called out shared between an employer (unless govt) and the employee and paid by federal and insurance companies. Consider a levy<<

As a (recently closed) long term micro employer, this would have bankrupted me. I simply could not have managed with staff away for more than a few days if I had to keep paying them at any level.

Fair enough, these things are usually directed at larger employers, and the reason why I include fed and insurance is to maintain the volunteer ethos, the govt pays the employee a certain amount, not a replacement wage and the insurance company pays the employer a certain amount, again not a replacement wage but a recognition of being mucked about and reduce the strain a bit.

Ahh, I reread, you wouldn’t be paying them, the govt would pay the volunteer a certain amount, and the insurance company would pay you a certain amount to keep you sweet about losing an employee.

As mentioned above, major emergencies are paid out of state funds, not agency funds. Most governments could easily afford to pay volunteers (directly or indirectly) but it would mean less money for everything else.

Interestingly, most federal government employees seem to have pretty good leave entitlements. I’ve got a mate who works for the RTO who can volunteer for as long as he likes, he just needs a letter from the head of his brigade / Unit.

maybe we can just fk it and burn everything to the ground, dig up the ground and burn that, and then when we’ve burnt enough the seas will rise and we’ll have a great flood and it’ll wash away the fires and we can start all over again

SCIENCE said:

maybe we can just fk it and burn everything to the ground, dig up the ground and burn that, and then when we’ve burnt enough the seas will rise and we’ll have a great flood and it’ll wash away the fires and we can start all over again

ok hillsong

dv said:

SCIENCE said:

maybe we can just fk it and burn everything to the ground, dig up the ground and burn that, and then when we’ve burnt enough the seas will rise and we’ll have a great flood and it’ll wash away the fires and we can start all over again

ok hillsong

Oh the hills are alive
with the sound of no trees

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/bullying-culture-blamed-as-volunteer-firefighter-numbers-drop-across-australia-20191229-p53nfo.html

Witty Rejoinder said:

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/bullying-culture-blamed-as-volunteer-firefighter-numbers-drop-across-australia-20191229-p53nfo.html

But bullyimg is the norm. We’d have to completely restructure.

roughbarked said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/bullying-culture-blamed-as-volunteer-firefighter-numbers-drop-across-australia-20191229-p53nfo.html

But bullyimg is the norm. We’d have to completely restructure.

I can honestly I have seen no instances of bullying. However I have seen the person in charge of the fie have to say “If you don’t do as directed you must leave the fireground.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQVWQsLJLX4

John Cadogan goes a bit apeshit on some politicians :)

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-07/fuel-reduction-burn-debate-rubbish-says-vic-fire-chief/11849522

Michael V said:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-07/fuel-reduction-burn-debate-rubbish-says-vic-fire-chief/11849522

The man is making sense. Here we are at a place where the MDB plan was scuppered by Barnaby and his mates to pinch the water that could have saved us from this situation.