been watching interviews with snowden, and various hackers lately, and other things related, didn’t really learn much, wasn’t much of hadn’t thought about some, or wasn’t somewhat familiar with

there was a time things had a structure you could observe, you know it could be a steam engine, or a look in the back of the TV. It sort of generated a derr, how does that work (for anyone interested) the physical aspects of it were physical, the components, mechanisms even, arrangements of

along came high density silicon, computers, software, and the supercharged internet. Marketing, advertising, commercial opportunity

how things work is less apparent. Anyway my interest here is with the hidden aspects

you can be thick as a plank today, go straight past derrr, and license the technology (to do stuff unawares to you), for the purposes of your convenience, of course

anyway, government and the commercial world I think have converged some, in a way that information about you is a product, and if it isn’t being sold right now it’s there to be commercialized later, which is important of government collecting information about you, to the extent they can be considered separate anymore. That sort of gets to the heart of my point here, the extent government is happy to sell people, variously

marketing and advertising, commercialization i’ll say, probably can be generalized loosely today to be a force, i’m thinking you can consider it a group force, in its totality, incorporate it into a model of systems theory, social, political, and economic

it’s the corrupting aspects i’m interested in, or the secret ways it may compromise a persons possible ways of seeing it, to see it at all perhaps

getting to it, if the world, social exchanges are becoming more transactional, it’s the hidden dimensions of i’m interested in, the appeal to ease, convenience, aspects you don’t have to consider, no abstraction required, no work that way

the extent that may even become a motivational theory, or the ways become part of such a theory, even a theory of mind

certainly association’s being manipulated by the machines, for advertising, your behavior is being analyzed across web sites for example, even if you run everything bolted down the machines can find your lexicon signature, very easy to do

anyway, more specifically to it

humans in fact do a lot to limit their exchanges with other humans, much as social lends to the idea more social is social, that’s not the case, humans restrict their interactions and communications, in large part to keep the social dimension manageable. Political dimension too

you know a fairly well developed (normal) 7 year old can contemplate social norms, native psychology, consider social forces, ask why, the beginnings of abstraction in the field. It probably starts younger than that. It must. A study of the imposition of social forces, expectations etc, acting on the self, and ideas of right and wrong certainly are involved in that

anyway there are people out there that want to sell stuff to adults and it’d be easier if the adults were dumber than 7 year olds. To that end corruption of native psychology may be useful

> it’s the corrupting aspects i’m interested in

Sometimes I’m wondering if its corrupting or if it’s technolag.

The “how to make it” and “how to repair it” aspect of technology is missing from today’s schooling. And since that has to be learnt in the ever-decreasing productive time outside school, technolag is increasing. So in that sense the “go straight past derrr” isn’t corrupting but is just a failure of schooling, or to put it another way, the failure is automatically created by having the same school curriculum for everyone, with negligible variation.

But on the other hand, there’s another way to consider this. Turn the clock back to 1917 and the River Rouge Ford plant. Just about the whole car was made at a single factory, from raw iron ore and coal through to the final finishing. But now, how different it is, with literally 200 or more different manufacturers for components of a single car. So all we’re left with is assembly, the art of making sure that all the holes line up correctly. I wonder if even the car manufacturer bothers beyond “go straight past derrr”. And the move in standards away from micromanagement to performance. A performance standard is easier to write, reduces hundreds of pages of informative text to just two. Eg. for a car, the performance standard that includes such things as turning circle, fuel consumption and gear ratios may be written in a single page. This “go straight past derrr” makes complicated things much easier.

And then there’s a third way to consider this. The “hidden dimensions of I’m interested in” can often be found on the internet in assembly and disassembly videos. The “go straight past derrr” is therefore fully justified on the grounds that if I ever do have a “derrr” moment then I can fingers-crossed look up the hidden dimensions on the internet. Let me give a recent “derrr” example, one where the internet info didn’t suffice. I recently bought a new Kogan TV/DVD that swallowed a DVD and would neither play nor disgorge it. A little hacksaw, cleaning and soldering exercise and it worked. Not pretty, but it worked. No different to my house 20 years ago when a valve powered pedal organ failed and a combination of dismantling and cleaning got it to work again. So the “derrr” is still there, whenever the object is valuable enough or quirky enough to care about it. Or with software, the Lenovo computer tablet failed after one, two and three years and I figured out a software override each time until the final failure.

mollwollfumble said:

> it’s the corrupting aspects i’m interested in

Sometimes I’m wondering if its corrupting or if it’s technolag.

1. The “how to make it” and “how to repair it” aspect of technology is missing from today’s schooling. And since that has to be learnt in the ever-decreasing productive time outside school, technolag is increasing. So in that sense the “go straight past derrr” isn’t corrupting but is just a failure of schooling, or to put it another way, the failure is automatically created by having the same school curriculum for everyone, with negligible variation.

2. But on the other hand, there’s another way to consider this. Turn the clock back to 1917 and the River Rouge Ford plant. Just about the whole car was made at a single factory, from raw iron ore and coal through to the final finishing. But now, how different it is, with literally 200 or more different manufacturers for components of a single car. So all we’re left with is assembly, the art of making sure that all the holes line up correctly. I wonder if even the car manufacturer bothers beyond “go straight past derrr”. And the move in standards away from micromanagement to performance. A performance standard is easier to write, reduces hundreds of pages of informative text to just two. Eg. for a car, the performance standard that includes such things as turning circle, fuel consumption and gear ratios may be written in a single page. This “go straight past derrr” makes complicated things much easier.

3. And then there’s a third way to consider this. The “hidden dimensions of I’m interested in” can often be found on the internet in assembly and disassembly videos. The “go straight past derrr” is therefore fully justified on the grounds that if I ever do have a “derrr” moment then I can fingers-crossed look up the hidden dimensions on the internet. Let me give a recent “derrr” example, one where the internet info didn’t suffice. I recently bought a new Kogan TV/DVD that swallowed a DVD and would neither play nor disgorge it. A little hacksaw, cleaning and soldering exercise and it worked. Not pretty, but it worked. No different to my house 20 years ago when a valve powered pedal organ failed and a combination of dismantling and cleaning got it to work again. So the “derrr” is still there, whenever the object is valuable enough or quirky enough to care about it. Or with software, the Lenovo computer tablet failed after one, two and three years and I figured out a software override each time until the final failure.

More on this.

On 2. I’m pretty sure it was the chemical engineers who invented the “go straight past derrr” in the first place. They call it “process engineering”. In process engineering you have a thing and all you need to know is how its inputs affect its outputs, there’s no need or desire to know the details of the thing itself in process engineering. This allows a simple human mind to handle more things without snapping. “By 1980, the concept of process engineering emerged from the fact that chemical engineering techniques and practices were being used in a variety of industries”, as applications were seen way beyond its chemical engineering roots.

On 2. Increasing use of “go straight past derrr” in the sense of “200 or more different manufacturers” leads to multinationalism and consequent world peace.

On 3. On the internet, even to knowing how things tick that have nothing to do with technology, such as politics and politicians, psychology and religion.

> the appeal to ease, convenience, aspects you don’t have to consider, no abstraction required, no work that way the extent that may even become a motivational theory, or the ways become part of such a theory, even a theory of mind.

Yes. But think of this a way to achieve world peace.

> a fairly well developed (normal) 7 year old can contemplate social norms, native psychology, consider social forces, ask why, the beginnings of abstraction in the field. Easier if the adults were dumber than 7 year olds. To that end corruption of native psychology may be useful.

Dumber is not the right word. “Less educated” would be more accurate. And that ties in with the failure of the education system I mentioned in number 1. It’s a completely different scale to “dumber”, perhaps a “less paranoid” scale, perhaps a “more religious” scale in accepting things on faith.

Many children 7 and under would commit murder, of for example a sibling, if they had the means and could get away with it. Adults in the distant past used to have the means to do it, and did it. But with the “go straight past derrr” they lose the childhood tendency to murder.

So “degeneration” or “evolution” would be a better word than “corruption”.

The decision on how to build the NBN was handled by derr people with no understanding of the technology or future requirements they were just concerned about how cheap this vital infrastructure could built.

People in my office actually like they are ignorant of technology and the internet, it seems to the mindset of that generation (perhaps that’s an assumption)

The most recent example was we have to do training on the various types of malware we might encounter out in the wild, they thought it dumb but would be the very people tricked by it.

>Dumber is not the right word. “Less educated” would be more accurate

yeah I thought of arranging some alphabet symbols differently after reread what I wrote, encoding it different, it was late and I fast tiring of my self at that point

i’m thinking the hidden aspects, what you license by using a social media platform or loading an application (for example, the hidden communications and functions (or operations, and potential operations, and information exchange), these aspects made background operations to the user are like unabstracted aspects of thinking and behavior, repressed aspects possibly

so you know, a child may start to develop the seeds of theory of mind at toddler stage, certainly have it by early school age, be contemplating things related to the ghost in the machine, the beginnings of metaphysics and native psychology well underway

the technology though doesn’t necessary encourage background work regard such things, in a sense you’re its child, technologies’ child, which could have a developmental downside, for the little biological learning machines

watched a lot of interviews, with elon musk also, what strikes me about a lot of the interviews of different people I watched is you can see them demonstrably thinking

humans to-date are the only machines that properly think, and think about thinking importantly, and (can) project the processes outwardly

i’m not sure that is the nature of the technology though i’m seeing, and the commercial aspects

so I guess if I dumbed all I said down, my question could be what are the consequences of being technologies’ child, even for adults?

transition said:

watched a lot of interviews, with elon musk also, what strikes me about a lot of the interviews of different people I watched is you can see them demonstrably thinking

humans to-date are the only machines that properly think, and think about thinking importantly, and (can) project the processes outwardly

i’m not sure that is the nature of the technology though i’m seeing, and the commercial aspects

so I guess if I dumbed all I said down, my question could be what are the consequences of being technologies’ child, even for adults?

That would down to individuals I imagine and like most inventions neither good or bad that’s down to how we use it.

It would be interesting to see what various generations use their mobile phone for besides communication.

Besides here I don’t social media at all, I read a lot of science articles and other things I’m interested in

it could be said of the past (still persists today) a lot of people were attracted to the idea of being a child of God, then later the state variously utilized something similar (with and without religion), you were a child of the state, a construction of, and of more (state dominated) authoritarian countries identity is still granted and managed by the state (say east germany, of past, and fascist germany WW2, for example), but countries that still manage what sort of social construction, system, the environment you view and understand the world through, these still persist today

the way sort of persists in the notion you’re a child of education, born of maybe

anyway the technology is even going around the view you’re a product of culture, if you didn’t have time or the inclination to contemplate variously the thought-devices that resulted in surrender to the notion culture determined reality, or ought determine reality, it’s developed the technological equivalent of morphine, though morphine makes it sound more pure than it probably is

> It would be interesting to see what various generations use their mobile phone for besides communication.

Do people actually use it for that? I mean, voice to voice.

I keep seeing it mostly being used as a “proof of identity” card. And that means that huge lists of mobile phone numbers become available, but only accessible to advertisers and scamsters, not available to Joe Public who might actually want to ring you for personal reasons. And God help you if your SIM card dies, you cease to exist.

mollwollfumble said:

I keep seeing it mostly being used as a “proof of identity” card.

Examples?

mollwollfumble said:

> It would be interesting to see what various generations use their mobile phone for besides communication.

Do people actually use it for that? I mean, voice to voice.

I keep seeing it mostly being used as a “proof of identity” card. And that means that huge lists of mobile phone numbers become available, but only accessible to advertisers and scamsters, not available to Joe Public who might actually want to ring you for personal reasons. And God help you if your SIM card dies, you cease to exist.

>>>>Do people actually use it for that? I mean, voice to voice.

I do, and for texts too. All occasional.

>>>>I keep seeing it mostly being used as a “proof of identity” card. And that means that huge lists of mobile phone numbers become available, but only accessible to advertisers and scamsters, not available to Joe Public who might actually want to ring you for personal reasons. And God help you if your SIM card dies, you cease to exist.

Enlighten me, please.

How can it be used as a “proof of identity” card?

And why do you cease to exist, merely because the SIM becomes inoperable?

mollwollfumble said:

> It would be interesting to see what various generations use their mobile phone for besides communication.

Do people actually use it for that? I mean, voice to voice.

I keep seeing it mostly being used as a “proof of identity” card. And that means that huge lists of mobile phone numbers become available, but only accessible to advertisers and scamsters, not available to Joe Public who might actually want to ring you for personal reasons. And God help you if your SIM card dies, you cease to exist.

should say using it that way is still communication, even a swipe for payment is still communications

but to your point, mobile phones got smaller, now for other purposes have gotten larger, to the point they are only partly a phone for voice comm’s.

On the whole having a computer in your hand is an impressive thing really, impresses me anyway

mollwollfumble said:

> It would be interesting to see what various generations use their mobile phone for besides communication.

Do people actually use it for that? I mean, voice to voice.

I keep seeing it mostly being used as a “proof of identity” card. And that means that huge lists of mobile phone numbers become available, but only accessible to advertisers and scamsters, not available to Joe Public who might actually want to ring you for personal reasons. And God help you if your SIM card dies, you cease to exist.

Yes I hardly ever make a phone call, it’s an information tool more than anything else

mollwollfumble said:

> It would be interesting to see what various generations use their mobile phone for besides communication.

Do people actually use it for that? I mean, voice to voice.

I keep seeing it mostly being used as a “proof of identity” card. And that means that huge lists of mobile phone numbers become available, but only accessible to advertisers and scamsters, not available to Joe Public who might actually want to ring you for personal reasons. And God help you if your SIM card dies, you cease to exist.

What?

Literally none of that is true. The only way advertisers and scammers get your number is if you’ve given it to a company who has sold it, or they’re cold calling random numbers.

• And God help you if your SIM card dies, you cease to exist.

You just go to your provider, or an authorised distributor and they’ll give you a new one with the same number…

Divine Angel said:

mollwollfumble said:

> It would be interesting to see what various generations use their mobile phone for besides communication.

Do people actually use it for that? I mean, voice to voice.

I keep seeing it mostly being used as a “proof of identity” card. And that means that huge lists of mobile phone numbers become available, but only accessible to advertisers and scamsters, not available to Joe Public who might actually want to ring you for personal reasons. And God help you if your SIM card dies, you cease to exist.

What?

Literally none of that is true. The only way advertisers and scammers get your number is if you’ve given it to a company who has sold it, or they’re cold calling random numbers.

If they call from a mobile themselves you can scam them back

moll is probably pointing to your transactional credentials (legitimacy) existing (increasingly) in a digital world, sort of forcibly

• I keep seeing it mostly being used as a “proof of identity” card.

Don’t know about “mostly” but mobile phones are often used in a two step verification process where they send you a code – things like online banking and such…

transition said:

moll is probably pointing to your transactional credentials (legitimacy) existing (increasingly) in a digital world, sort of forcibly

the cashless welfare card’s an example

Cymek said:

mollwollfumble said:

> It would be interesting to see what various generations use their mobile phone for besides communication.

Do people actually use it for that? I mean, voice to voice.

I keep seeing it mostly being used as a “proof of identity” card. And that means that huge lists of mobile phone numbers become available, but only accessible to advertisers and scamsters, not available to Joe Public who might actually want to ring you for personal reasons. And God help you if your SIM card dies, you cease to exist.

Yes I hardly ever make a phone call, it’s an information tool more than anything else

I don’t connect my phone to the internet. To do so is expensive, and my clumsy fingers are hopeless using a phone.

Michael V said:

Cymek said:

mollwollfumble said:

> It would be interesting to see what various generations use their mobile phone for besides communication.

Do people actually use it for that? I mean, voice to voice.

I keep seeing it mostly being used as a “proof of identity” card. And that means that huge lists of mobile phone numbers become available, but only accessible to advertisers and scamsters, not available to Joe Public who might actually want to ring you for personal reasons. And God help you if your SIM card dies, you cease to exist.

Yes I hardly ever make a phone call, it’s an information tool more than anything else

I don’t connect my phone to the internet. To do so is expensive, and my clumsy fingers are hopeless using a phone.

I have a mobile phone. No internet. Pay per use. I put $20 on it at the start of the year and still had $18 on it at the end of the year.

mollwollfumble said:

Michael V said:

Cymek said:

Yes I hardly ever make a phone call, it’s an information tool more than anything else

I don’t connect my phone to the internet. To do so is expensive, and my clumsy fingers are hopeless using a phone.

I have a mobile phone. No internet. Pay per use. I put $20 on it at the start of the year and still had $18 on it at the end of the year.

I used to have a phone that didn’t connect to the internet. Gee, that was about 15 years ago now, what many term the dark ages. I am not a luddite.