consider the possibility every idealization you ever entertained, indulged or carried you, substantially enough misrepresented reality to be misleading enough to be considered wrong

doubtful any human has escaped idealization for a moment, entirely, excepting perhaps those in a deep coma, and the departed and unborn

i’m not sure what a human would be if it maximized for reality, the extreme, whatever that there wouldn’t be a conclusion, the job would never be completed, rather always a work in progress

a lot of idealization is necessary, instrumental to whatever, the details of the instrumental aspects can be known often, well-abstracted, the instrumental purpose understood

in some sense we inhabit a post-idealization world, religion’s in decline, physicalism sort of has taken over, though it too can be seen to have idealizations, adopted with an enthusiasm to explain everything, for example

any time a thinking machine sees anything, forms a representation, it has a way of doing it, the structure of thought (or perception) is injected into the representation, or you could say the purpose or objectives (functions even) of the representational apparatus unavoidably become part of the representation, or representational structure

my metaphysical position is a computational apparatus can’t avoid injecting something of itself into anything it does, of representation, so you get a composite

when you think you’re observing some dry details of reality, of external for example, large part of what you’re observing really is what you’re doing, the act of observing, your doings

take a joke that is funny, you’re laughing at your internal mental gymnastics, or take an appealing view from a mountain, the view is really nice, your mind makes it seem nice, generates a pleasant sensation, all that processing done with little apparent effort, ease in fact, it impresses you

so i’m thinking a super dry reality, stuff out there, what’s the outcome of maximizing for such a reality

I guess everyone that abstracts some ventures (a more) dry reality, not sure they’d ever make it their home

so where to with physicalism, what’s the compensational aspects, for humans, for the fleshy machines, to incorporate it into the wetware

I find learning new knowledge every day as compensation for anything spiritual and scientific discoveries are far more interesting than made up nonsense about gods.
Find out why something is the way it is takes away nothing and adds so much more.

Reality is a weird thing as our brains/minds fill in the blanks and everyone/things reality is different regardless, our limited senses are just one example of just the tiny view of reality we have.
Imagine if we could see say like all the various artificial signals our societies produces, one does wonder if we will one day become transhumans

Cymek said:

I find learning new knowledge every day as compensation for anything spiritual and scientific discoveries are far more interesting than made up nonsense about gods.
Find out why something is the way it is takes away nothing and adds so much more.

Reality is a weird thing as our brains/minds fill in the blanks and everyone/things reality is different regardless, our limited senses are just one example of just the tiny view of reality we have.
Imagine if we could see say like all the various artificial signals our societies produces, one does wonder if we will one day become transhumans

>Reality is a weird thing as our brains/minds fill in the blanks and everyone/things reality is different regardless, our limited senses are just one example of just the tiny view of reality we have.

thing is, of external reality (ignoring human thought, and the animal world maybe) it is blanker than thought, completely devoid of anything resembling human intention, or human thought, so thinking about it, filling in the blanks, is quite what it’s not

transition said:

Cymek said:

I find learning new knowledge every day as compensation for anything spiritual and scientific discoveries are far more interesting than made up nonsense about gods.
Find out why something is the way it is takes away nothing and adds so much more.

Reality is a weird thing as our brains/minds fill in the blanks and everyone/things reality is different regardless, our limited senses are just one example of just the tiny view of reality we have.
Imagine if we could see say like all the various artificial signals our societies produces, one does wonder if we will one day become transhumans

>Reality is a weird thing as our brains/minds fill in the blanks and everyone/things reality is different regardless, our limited senses are just one example of just the tiny view of reality we have.

thing is, of external reality (ignoring human thought, and the animal world maybe) it is blanker than thought, completely devoid of anything resembling human intention, or human thought, so thinking about it, filling in the blanks, is quite what it’s not

most of the universe, including the animal world (excluding humans), seems to have arrived, self-ordered, with no thought at all, nothing of human thought involved, it’s had all the time in the world to do it, granted, at great expense of life getting there (of life evolved on earth for example), so I might be forgiven for thinking that thought (computation by humans) is a minor anomaly, not the grand answer, or answerers

transition said:

transition said:

Cymek said:

I find learning new knowledge every day as compensation for anything spiritual and scientific discoveries are far more interesting than made up nonsense about gods.
Find out why something is the way it is takes away nothing and adds so much more.

Reality is a weird thing as our brains/minds fill in the blanks and everyone/things reality is different regardless, our limited senses are just one example of just the tiny view of reality we have.
Imagine if we could see say like all the various artificial signals our societies produces, one does wonder if we will one day become transhumans

>Reality is a weird thing as our brains/minds fill in the blanks and everyone/things reality is different regardless, our limited senses are just one example of just the tiny view of reality we have.

thing is, of external reality (ignoring human thought, and the animal world maybe) it is blanker than thought, completely devoid of anything resembling human intention, or human thought, so thinking about it, filling in the blanks, is quite what it’s not

most of the universe, including the animal world (excluding humans), seems to have arrived, self-ordered, with no thought at all, nothing of human thought involved, it’s had all the time in the world to do it, granted, at great expense of life getting there (of life evolved on earth for example), so I might be forgiven for thinking that thought (computation by humans) is a minor anomaly, not the grand answer, or answerers

Could be quite rare couldn’t it complex thought, forms part of the Drake equation.
We assume we are the first intelligent species on Earth so out of all history of the planet that would be what 1 out of all life that ever existed.
Thought brings lot of pain with it as well

I’m not sure if you’re talking “idealization” as in “generalization”, as we do every time we use language or do mathematics.

Or if you’re talking “idealization” as in “utopia”, as we do every time we think the concept “good” or “bad”.

So are you asking beyond-description or beyond-morality?

mollwollfumble said:

I’m not sure if you’re talking “idealization” as in “generalization”, as we do every time we use language or do mathematics.

Or if you’re talking “idealization” as in “utopia”, as we do every time we think the concept “good” or “bad”.

So are you asking beyond-description or beyond-morality?

latter’s interesting

you are born into the world innocent, naive, ignorant, do you ever completely abandon that, really, would you want to, could you

transition said:

mollwollfumble said:

I’m not sure if you’re talking “idealization” as in “generalization”, as we do every time we use language or do mathematics.

Or if you’re talking “idealization” as in “utopia”, as we do every time we think the concept “good” or “bad”.

So are you asking beyond-description or beyond-morality?

latter’s interesting

you are born into the world innocent, naive, ignorant, do you ever completely abandon that, really, would you want to, could you

One of mollwoillfumble’s sayings is “everybody dies naive”. Nobody completely abandons that, ever. If you look at life as the johari window, for instance, we couldn’t. I know Buddhism claims that enlightenment closes the Johari window and stops the sequence of reincarnation. But that’s just religion, it doesn’t have any truth in the real world.

As for “born into the world innocent”, I’m suspect not. Even a single-celled organism will fight for life. A newly born turtle will head for the sea, a newly born cuckoo duck knows how to swim.

mollwollfumble said:

As for “born into the world innocent”, I’m suspect not.

Jaysus, you’re definitely not catholic.