Date: 17/02/2020 09:03:00
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1501503
Subject: Salmon questions

I’m reading the new version of Attenborough’s Life on Earth, and have just been reminded of the breeding cycle of salmon.

This raised the following questions:

1. What is the evolutionary advantage of swimming up difficult streams to breed, then dying?
2. What is the evolutionary advantage of returning to the place where you were conceived to breed?
3. How do people know that salmon use a combination of smell and magnetic fields to find their original breeding place?
4. Many other species breed in a different location to where they spend most of their lives, but are there any others that return to a specific location, and only breed once?

Reply Quote

Date: 17/02/2020 09:05:51
From: Tamb
ID: 1501504
Subject: re: Salmon questions

The Rev Dodgson said:


I’m reading the new version of Attenborough’s Life on Earth, and have just been reminded of the breeding cycle of salmon.

This raised the following questions:

1. What is the evolutionary advantage of swimming up difficult streams to breed, then dying?
2. What is the evolutionary advantage of returning to the place where you were conceived to breed?
3. How do people know that salmon use a combination of smell and magnetic fields to find their original breeding place?
4. Many other species breed in a different location to where they spend most of their lives, but are there any others that return to a specific location, and only breed once?


Migratory birds do similar.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/02/2020 09:09:23
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1501505
Subject: re: Salmon questions

Tamb said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

I’m reading the new version of Attenborough’s Life on Earth, and have just been reminded of the breeding cycle of salmon.

This raised the following questions:

1. What is the evolutionary advantage of swimming up difficult streams to breed, then dying?
2. What is the evolutionary advantage of returning to the place where you were conceived to breed?
3. How do people know that salmon use a combination of smell and magnetic fields to find their original breeding place?
4. Many other species breed in a different location to where they spend most of their lives, but are there any others that return to a specific location, and only breed once?


Migratory birds do similar.

They return to a general area, but do they return to a specific location in the same way that Salmon do?

And breed once then die?

Reply Quote

Date: 17/02/2020 09:09:24
From: Michael V
ID: 1501506
Subject: re: Salmon questions

Tamb said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

I’m reading the new version of Attenborough’s Life on Earth, and have just been reminded of the breeding cycle of salmon.

This raised the following questions:

1. What is the evolutionary advantage of swimming up difficult streams to breed, then dying?
2. What is the evolutionary advantage of returning to the place where you were conceived to breed?
3. How do people know that salmon use a combination of smell and magnetic fields to find their original breeding place?
4. Many other species breed in a different location to where they spend most of their lives, but are there any others that return to a specific location, and only breed once?


Migratory birds do similar.

Bogong moths.

Some eels.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/02/2020 09:09:50
From: roughbarked
ID: 1501507
Subject: re: Salmon questions

The Rev Dodgson said:


I’m reading the new version of Attenborough’s Life on Earth, and have just been reminded of the breeding cycle of salmon.

This raised the following questions:

1. What is the evolutionary advantage of swimming up difficult streams to breed, then dying?
2. What is the evolutionary advantage of returning to the place where you were conceived to breed?
3. How do people know that salmon use a combination of smell and magnetic fields to find their original breeding place?
4. Many other species breed in a different location to where they spend most of their lives, but are there any others that return to a specific location, and only breed once?

Well the first thing is that salmon fingerlings may not have means of avoiding predators in the open ocean. It may well be that the strategy that works is the one still being used.
Which could also answer the second question.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/02/2020 09:11:36
From: dv
ID: 1501508
Subject: re: Salmon questions

The Rev Dodgson said:


I’m reading the new version of Attenborough’s Life on Earth, and have just been reminded of the breeding cycle of salmon.

This raised the following questions:

1. What is the evolutionary advantage of swimming up difficult streams to breed, then dying?
2. What is the evolutionary advantage of returning to the place where you were conceived to breed?
3. How do people know that salmon use a combination of smell and magnetic fields to find their original breeding place?
4. Many other species breed in a different location to where they spend most of their lives, but are there any others that return to a specific location, and only breed once?

Firstly, I don’t know.
Secondly, most traits don’t have an advantage. Species just rittle into a local minimum which, viewed absolutely, can often be a terrible way of doing things.

But I can suggest some ways in which some of these things could be advantageous.
1/ There’s more food in the ocean, but high altitude streams might be a safer place for eggs and the young parr.
2/ Well at least you know that was suitable place for breeding once: seems like fair odds that it will be again.
3/ Here’s an article discussing the evidence that salmon use magnetism.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/02/130207131713.htm
4/ Dunno.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/02/2020 09:14:32
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1501509
Subject: re: Salmon questions

roughbarked said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

I’m reading the new version of Attenborough’s Life on Earth, and have just been reminded of the breeding cycle of salmon.

This raised the following questions:

1. What is the evolutionary advantage of swimming up difficult streams to breed, then dying?
2. What is the evolutionary advantage of returning to the place where you were conceived to breed?
3. How do people know that salmon use a combination of smell and magnetic fields to find their original breeding place?
4. Many other species breed in a different location to where they spend most of their lives, but are there any others that return to a specific location, and only breed once?

Well the first thing is that salmon fingerlings may not have means of avoiding predators in the open ocean. It may well be that the strategy that works is the one still being used.
Which could also answer the second question.

Not really. Why wouldn’t any stream with suitable conditions do, rather than the very place where they were conceived?

And why not have adults breed over multiple seasons (as bogong moths do, apparently)?

Reply Quote

Date: 17/02/2020 09:16:52
From: dv
ID: 1501510
Subject: re: Salmon questions

The Rev Dodgson said:

Not really. Why wouldn’t any stream with suitable conditions do

By returning to the same place, you are reinforcing the selection of a successful breeding location.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/02/2020 09:17:36
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1501511
Subject: re: Salmon questions

5. What happens to salmon breeding cycles during periods of rapid glaciation or glacial melting?

Reply Quote

Date: 17/02/2020 09:18:46
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1501512
Subject: re: Salmon questions

dv said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

Not really. Why wouldn’t any stream with suitable conditions do

By returning to the same place, you are reinforcing the selection of a successful breeding location.

So why aren’t there lots of species that do this?

Or are there?

Reply Quote

Date: 17/02/2020 09:21:25
From: dv
ID: 1501513
Subject: re: Salmon questions

The Rev Dodgson said:


dv said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Not really. Why wouldn’t any stream with suitable conditions do

By returning to the same place, you are reinforcing the selection of a successful breeding location.

So why aren’t there lots of species that do this?

Or are there?

Why aren’t their lots of mammals with a huge keratin horn? Does the fact that there aren’t imply that its useless to the rhino? Perhaps the ability to navigate back to a small stream across thousands of km of ocean is hard to evolve.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/02/2020 09:22:26
From: dv
ID: 1501515
Subject: re: Salmon questions

The WP article gives a few other examples
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natal_homing

Reply Quote

Date: 17/02/2020 09:23:15
From: Tamb
ID: 1501517
Subject: re: Salmon questions

The Rev Dodgson said:


Tamb said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

I’m reading the new version of Attenborough’s Life on Earth, and have just been reminded of the breeding cycle of salmon.

This raised the following questions:

1. What is the evolutionary advantage of swimming up difficult streams to breed, then dying?
2. What is the evolutionary advantage of returning to the place where you were conceived to breed?
3. How do people know that salmon use a combination of smell and magnetic fields to find their original breeding place?
4. Many other species breed in a different location to where they spend most of their lives, but are there any others that return to a specific location, and only breed once?


Migratory birds do similar.

They return to a general area, but do they return to a specific location in the same way that Salmon do?

And breed once then die?

That’s why I said similar not identical behaviour.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/02/2020 09:24:04
From: Tamb
ID: 1501518
Subject: re: Salmon questions

roughbarked said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

I’m reading the new version of Attenborough’s Life on Earth, and have just been reminded of the breeding cycle of salmon.

This raised the following questions:

1. What is the evolutionary advantage of swimming up difficult streams to breed, then dying?
2. What is the evolutionary advantage of returning to the place where you were conceived to breed?
3. How do people know that salmon use a combination of smell and magnetic fields to find their original breeding place?
4. Many other species breed in a different location to where they spend most of their lives, but are there any others that return to a specific location, and only breed once?

Well the first thing is that salmon fingerlings may not have means of avoiding predators in the open ocean. It may well be that the strategy that works is the one still being used.
Which could also answer the second question.

1 & 2 are good for bears.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/02/2020 09:26:12
From: Tamb
ID: 1501519
Subject: re: Salmon questions

The Rev Dodgson said:


dv said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Not really. Why wouldn’t any stream with suitable conditions do

By returning to the same place, you are reinforcing the selection of a successful breeding location.

So why aren’t there lots of species that do this?

Or are there?


Maybe homesickness is a mild form of this.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/02/2020 09:31:26
From: ChrispenEvan
ID: 1501520
Subject: re: Salmon questions

Tamb said:


roughbarked said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

I’m reading the new version of Attenborough’s Life on Earth, and have just been reminded of the breeding cycle of salmon.

This raised the following questions:

1. What is the evolutionary advantage of swimming up difficult streams to breed, then dying?
2. What is the evolutionary advantage of returning to the place where you were conceived to breed?
3. How do people know that salmon use a combination of smell and magnetic fields to find their original breeding place?
4. Many other species breed in a different location to where they spend most of their lives, but are there any others that return to a specific location, and only breed once?

Well the first thing is that salmon fingerlings may not have means of avoiding predators in the open ocean. It may well be that the strategy that works is the one still being used.
Which could also answer the second question.

1 & 2 are good for bears.

which bears swim upstream to breed????

Reply Quote

Date: 17/02/2020 09:53:10
From: Speedy
ID: 1501524
Subject: re: Salmon questions

The Rev Dodgson said:


1. What is the evolutionary advantage of swimming up difficult streams to breed, then dying?

It’s probably a numbers game. Breeding salmon exhausting all of their resources for single-season egg production is probably more advantageous for their genetic line.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/02/2020 09:54:52
From: Speedy
ID: 1501525
Subject: re: Salmon questions

Speedy said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

1. What is the evolutionary advantage of swimming up difficult streams to breed, then dying?

It’s probably a numbers game. Breeding salmon exhausting all of their resources for single-season egg production is probably more advantageous for their genetic line.

That is, the number of eggs produced in that season would be maximised.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/02/2020 09:57:14
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1501526
Subject: re: Salmon questions

Speedy said:


Speedy said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

1. What is the evolutionary advantage of swimming up difficult streams to breed, then dying?

It’s probably a numbers game. Breeding salmon exhausting all of their resources for single-season egg production is probably more advantageous for their genetic line.

That is, the number of eggs produced in that season would be maximised.

Good point.

Worth a read:
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn22042-climate-change-drives-salmon-evolution/

Reply Quote

Date: 17/02/2020 09:58:30
From: transition
ID: 1501527
Subject: re: Salmon questions

>1. What is the evolutionary advantage of swimming up difficult streams to breed, then dying?

not entirely different, or has an analogy in human reproductive biology and of many other creatures, I would expect

Reply Quote

Date: 17/02/2020 10:05:35
From: Bubblecar
ID: 1501529
Subject: re: Salmon questions

The advantage is presumably in dispersal. Returning to their birth place to breed retains a proven and fairly simple cycle. They only do it once in this case presumably because that’s all that is feasible.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/02/2020 10:07:22
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1501530
Subject: re: Salmon questions

transition said:


>1. What is the evolutionary advantage of swimming up difficult streams to breed, then dying?

not entirely different, or has an analogy in human reproductive biology and of many other creatures, I would expect

Well lot’s of insects reproduce then die.

I don’t see any analogy in human reproduction.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/02/2020 10:10:40
From: Tamb
ID: 1501531
Subject: re: Salmon questions

The Rev Dodgson said:


transition said:

>1. What is the evolutionary advantage of swimming up difficult streams to breed, then dying?

not entirely different, or has an analogy in human reproductive biology and of many other creatures, I would expect

Well lot’s of insects reproduce then die.

I don’t see any analogy in human reproduction.

Male Antechinus copulate until they die.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/02/2020 10:24:43
From: Peak Warming Man
ID: 1501534
Subject: re: Salmon questions

Only the fit and strong make it up the river to breed.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/02/2020 10:27:43
From: ChrispenEvan
ID: 1501535
Subject: re: Salmon questions

Peak Warming Man said:


Only the fit and strong make it up the river to breed.

as darwin intended.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/02/2020 10:40:33
From: transition
ID: 1501538
Subject: re: Salmon questions

The Rev Dodgson said:


transition said:

>1. What is the evolutionary advantage of swimming up difficult streams to breed, then dying?

not entirely different, or has an analogy in human reproductive biology and of many other creatures, I would expect

Well lot’s of insects reproduce then die.

I don’t see any analogy in human reproduction.

tadpoles you know, swimming up to meet an egg, to give it more explicitiviticitivity

Reply Quote

Date: 17/02/2020 10:44:08
From: Bubblecar
ID: 1501540
Subject: re: Salmon questions

Peak Warming Man said:


Only the fit and strong make it up the river to breed.

OTOH, they only need to be that fit and strong because they have to travel up the river to breed.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/02/2020 10:57:48
From: Peak Warming Man
ID: 1501546
Subject: re: Salmon questions

Bubblecar said:


Peak Warming Man said:

Only the fit and strong make it up the river to breed.

OTOH, they only need to be that fit and strong because they have to travel up the river to breed.

But then they’d lose their fit & strong and become easy prey for more predatory fish and die out.

/David Attenborough voice.
And here we have a fossilised skeleton of the salmon fish, these extinct ancient fish came inland up the river to breed.
So this river would have been flat and gently sloping and not the roaring bolder and obstacle strewn river we see today.
/David Attenborough voice.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/02/2020 11:08:09
From: Bubblecar
ID: 1501549
Subject: re: Salmon questions

Peak Warming Man said:


Bubblecar said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Only the fit and strong make it up the river to breed.

OTOH, they only need to be that fit and strong because they have to travel up the river to breed.

But then they’d lose their fit & strong and become easy prey for more predatory fish and die out.

/David Attenborough voice.
And here we have a fossilised skeleton of the salmon fish, these extinct ancient fish came inland up the river to breed.
So this river would have been flat and gently sloping and not the roaring bolder and obstacle strewn river we see today.
/David Attenborough voice.

Nah. Most fish don’t swim up the river to breed but that doesn’t make them go extinct.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/02/2020 11:13:01
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1501553
Subject: re: Salmon questions

transition said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

transition said:

>1. What is the evolutionary advantage of swimming up difficult streams to breed, then dying?

not entirely different, or has an analogy in human reproductive biology and of many other creatures, I would expect

Well lot’s of insects reproduce then die.

I don’t see any analogy in human reproduction.

tadpoles you know, swimming up to meet an egg, to give it more explicitiviticitivity

OK, but that’s a different level.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/02/2020 11:29:31
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1501561
Subject: re: Salmon questions

dv said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

I’m reading the new version of Attenborough’s Life on Earth, and have just been reminded of the breeding cycle of salmon.

This raised the following questions:

1. What is the evolutionary advantage of swimming up difficult streams to breed, then dying?
2. What is the evolutionary advantage of returning to the place where you were conceived to breed?
3. How do people know that salmon use a combination of smell and magnetic fields to find their original breeding place?
4. Many other species breed in a different location to where they spend most of their lives, but are there any others that return to a specific location, and only breed once?

Firstly, I don’t know.
Secondly, most traits don’t have an advantage. Species just rittle into a local minimum which, viewed absolutely, can often be a terrible way of doing things.

But I can suggest some ways in which some of these things could be advantageous.
1/ There’s more food in the ocean, but high altitude streams might be a safer place for eggs and the young parr.
2/ Well at least you know that was suitable place for breeding once: seems like fair odds that it will be again.
3/ Here’s an article discussing the evidence that salmon use magnetism.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/02/130207131713.htm
4/ Dunno.

Yes. That makes sense. Then you also have to consider the opposite. What is the evolutionary advantage for all those fish species that don’t do what the salmon does?

One thing which has bogged me down in the past is the plethora of freshwater fish. Rivers are eventually going to dry up (eg. during an ice age or through desertification) and the drying up of even one river system is going to kill all the species that rely on that system. Further, river systems are extremely sensitive to pollution both natural (eg. tree and algal poisons) and artificial. And suppose a new river system forms, then almost all freshwater fish aren’t going to be able to migrate into that new river system.

From the point of view of all freshwater fish (and other freshwater species), it would be advantageous in the long term to be able to swim totally out of the mouth of that river system and up the coast to find a new river system, but few do. Because the environments are just too different. I know more about cetaceans that do than about fish that do. Among the cetaceans, literally the only two that manage this are the finless porpoise and the tucuxi. Those cetaceans confined to one river system, such as the baiji, are close to extinction. Among the fish, I only know of the bull shark, sawfish, European eel, and salmon, though there are probably many more.

OK, so from a fresh water fish perspective it makes evolutionary sense to be able to travel from river to river via the sea, though very few species manage it. It also makes evolutionary sense to aim for the least polluted part of the river, right up at the headwaters.

But why enter rivers at all, why not stay all your life at sea? There’s a very good reason – insects. There are a negligible number of insect species in the sea. So this major source of food is lost to all obligatory saltwater fish. Baby salmon can gorge themselves on insects at the right time of year, and the right time of year is the time when glaciers are melting, right up near the headwaters. Just think of the number of insects in a Siberian summer for example.

OK, so my logic has got me to the point where the ideal arrangement from an evolutionary point of view is to breed in river headwaters at the time of year when the glaciers are just starting to melt, and to exit those rivers for the open sea as you get larger. Ideal, except for the return journey, which is frought with danger. The sooner an adult salmon can get up to the river headwaters, the more chance the baby salmon have of getting fed by the burgeoning insect population there.

From a circle of life point of view, the drying adult salmon provide good food for the insects that their young will feed from.

Other fish have other survival strategies, but the salmon one is a good one.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/02/2020 11:42:34
From: transition
ID: 1501564
Subject: re: Salmon questions

get back to this later

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salmon

“….Eggs are laid in deeper water with larger gravel, and need cool water and good water flow (to supply oxygen) to the developing embryos….”

Reply Quote

Date: 17/02/2020 11:48:14
From: transition
ID: 1501569
Subject: re: Salmon questions

The Rev Dodgson said:


transition said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Well lot’s of insects reproduce then die.

I don’t see any analogy in human reproduction.

tadpoles you know, swimming up to meet an egg, to give it more explicitiviticitivity

OK, but that’s a different level.

happened upon mechanisms, or ways, that tend to work, have some probability of turning up elsewhere, at different levels, or even emerging independently, simply because there just aren’t that many ways to do whatever

Reply Quote

Date: 17/02/2020 12:11:13
From: Michael V
ID: 1501584
Subject: re: Salmon questions

The speckled longfin eel, Anguilla reinhardtii has almost the opposite strategy. It lives in freshwater but breeds in the deep ocean.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speckled_longfin_eel

They have been observed climbing up through damp grass at night near Dangar’s Falls on Salisbury Waters near Armidale to get to the higher reaches of the creek. Dangar’s Falls usually has just a trickle of water going over it, and has a sheer drop of around 100 metres, that the fish can’t climb. After a major flood event, thousands of eels get washed over the falls and are killed. Can make the bottom of the falls very stinky. (No reference, sorry)

They have also been observed swimming downstream backwards over the spillway of Warragamba Dam near Sydney.

https://australianmuseum.net.au/learn/animals/fishes/longfin-eel-anguilla-reinhardtii/

Dangar’s Falls:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dangarsleigh,_New_South_Wales

Reply Quote

Date: 17/02/2020 12:15:03
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1501590
Subject: re: Salmon questions

dv said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

I’m reading the new version of Attenborough’s Life on Earth, and have just been reminded of the breeding cycle of salmon.

This raised the following questions:

1. What is the evolutionary advantage of swimming up difficult streams to breed, then dying?
2. What is the evolutionary advantage of returning to the place where you were conceived to breed?
3. How do people know that salmon use a combination of smell and magnetic fields to find their original breeding place?
4. Many other species breed in a different location to where they spend most of their lives, but are there any others that return to a specific location, and only breed once?

Firstly, I don’t know.
Secondly, most traits don’t have an advantage. Species just rittle into a local minimum which, viewed absolutely, can often be a terrible way of doing things.

But I can suggest some ways in which some of these things could be advantageous.
1/ There’s more food in the ocean, but high altitude streams might be a safer place for eggs and the young parr.
2/ Well at least you know that was suitable place for breeding once: seems like fair odds that it will be again.
3/ Here’s an article discussing the evidence that salmon use magnetism.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/02/130207131713.htm
4/ Dunno.

Yes. That makes sense. Then you also have to consider the opposite. What is the evolutionary advantage for all those fish species that don’t do what the salmon does?

One thing which has bogged me down in the past is the plethora of freshwater fish. Rivers are eventually going to dry up (eg. during an ice age or through desertification) and the drying up of even one river system is going to kill all the species that rely on that system. Further, river systems are extremely sensitive to pollution both natural (eg. tree and algal poisons) and artificial. And suppose a new river system forms, then almost all freshwater fish aren’t going to be able to migrate into that new river system.

From the point of view of all freshwater fish (and other freshwater species), it would be advantageous in the long term to be able to swim totally out of the mouth of that river system and up the coast to find a new river system, but few do. Because the environments are just too different. I know more about cetaceans that do than about fish that do. Among the cetaceans, literally the only two that manage this are the finless porpoise and the tucuxi. Those cetaceans confined to one river system, such as the baiji, are close to extinction. Among the fish, I only know of the bull shark, sawfish, European eel, and salmon, though there are probably many more.

OK, so from a fresh water fish perspective it makes evolutionary sense to be able to travel from river to river via the sea, though very few species manage it. It also makes evolutionary sense to aim for the least polluted part of the river, right up at the headwaters.

But why enter rivers at all, why not stay all your life at sea? There’s a very good reason – insects. There are a negligible number of insect species in the sea. So this major source of food is lost to all obligatory saltwater fish. Baby salmon can gorge themselves on insects at the right time of year, and the right time of year is the time when glaciers are melting, right up near the headwaters. Just think of the number of insects in a Siberian summer for example.

OK, so my logic has got me to the point where the ideal arrangement from an evolutionary point of view is to breed in river headwaters at the time of year when the glaciers are just starting to melt, and to exit those rivers for the open sea as you get larger. Ideal, except for the return journey, which is frought with danger. The sooner an adult salmon can get up to the river headwaters, the more chance the baby salmon have of getting fed by the burgeoning insect population there.

From a circle of life point of view, the drying adult salmon provide good food for the insects that their young will feed from.

Other fish have other survival strategies, but the salmon one is a good one.

> 4. Many other species breed in a different location to where they spend most of their lives, but are there any others that return to a specific location, and only breed once?

The European eel might, or the American eel, who do the salmon journey in reverse. I think the jury is still out on that one.

I haven’t yet seen any evidence to contradict the hypothesis that European and/or American eels only breed once. They certainly return to a specific location to breed, well distant from where they spend most of their lives.

As for the hazardous nature of the breeding journey, the hazards to European eels swimming to their breeding sites in the Sargasso Sea are easily as large as the hazards to breeding salmon swimming upriver. A large fraction of the eels fall prey to sharks.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/02/2020 12:15:44
From: Peak Warming Man
ID: 1501591
Subject: re: Salmon questions

Michael V said:


The speckled longfin eel, Anguilla reinhardtii has almost the opposite strategy. It lives in freshwater but breeds in the deep ocean.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speckled_longfin_eel

They have been observed climbing up through damp grass at night near Dangar’s Falls on Salisbury Waters near Armidale to get to the higher reaches of the creek. Dangar’s Falls usually has just a trickle of water going over it, and has a sheer drop of around 100 metres, that the fish can’t climb. After a major flood event, thousands of eels get washed over the falls and are killed. Can make the bottom of the falls very stinky. (No reference, sorry)

They have also been observed swimming downstream backwards over the spillway of Warragamba Dam near Sydney.

https://australianmuseum.net.au/learn/animals/fishes/longfin-eel-anguilla-reinhardtii/

Dangar’s Falls:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dangarsleigh,_New_South_Wales

Thanks for that Michael.

Reply Quote

Date: 17/02/2020 13:17:05
From: Ian
ID: 1501605
Subject: re: Salmon questions

Or: The Salmon of Doubt

Reply Quote

Date: 17/02/2020 13:23:12
From: sarahs mum
ID: 1501609
Subject: re: Salmon questions

Reply Quote

Date: 17/02/2020 13:24:40
From: buffy
ID: 1501610
Subject: re: Salmon questions

Has anyone eaten the salmon mousse?

(I’m a bit surprised it hasn’t been mentioned)

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Date: 17/02/2020 13:27:39
From: Tamb
ID: 1501615
Subject: re: Salmon questions

buffy said:


Has anyone eaten the salmon mousse?

(I’m a bit surprised it hasn’t been mentioned)


Or it’s alternate name Salmonella.

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Date: 17/02/2020 13:29:06
From: Peak Warming Man
ID: 1501617
Subject: re: Salmon questions

Tamb said:


buffy said:

Has anyone eaten the salmon mousse?

(I’m a bit surprised it hasn’t been mentioned)


Or it’s alternate name Salmonella.

slaps knee

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Date: 17/02/2020 15:54:26
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1501705
Subject: re: Salmon questions

Basically it has been said that the reason they travel up streams with huge difficulties, means the fewer will be the aquatic predators, parasites, etc. Also it means only the fittest survive to breed. It also means the energy required to reach the breeding site does not give the fish the luxury of investigating other streams to spawn.

To return to the same stream they had been bred, means that it is an accessible and suitable place to spawn, which if the stream was radically altered to deny access, presumably the fish would (if still fit) seek out another suitable stream or die trying.

There are many animals that return to their birth place to breed, which makes sense as they know as they survived, so likely would their offspring, but has also been mentioned they do not die once they have bred, which is probably due to the less arduous nature of getting there. Evolution is usually a trade-off between various necessities.

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Date: 17/02/2020 16:08:50
From: Ian
ID: 1501710
Subject: re: Salmon questions

PermeateFree said:


Basically it has been said that the reason they travel up streams with huge difficulties, means the fewer will be the aquatic predators, parasites, etc. Also it means only the fittest survive to breed. It also means the energy required to reach the breeding site does not give the fish the luxury of investigating other streams to spawn.

To return to the same stream they had been bred, means that it is an accessible and suitable place to spawn, which if the stream was radically altered to deny access, presumably the fish would (if still fit) seek out another suitable stream or die trying.

There are many animals that return to their birth place to breed, which makes sense as they know as they survived, so likely would their offspring, but has also been mentioned they do not die once they have bred, which is probably due to the less arduous nature of getting there. Evolution is usually a trade-off between various necessities.

Most salmon die having spawned. They don’t eat much in the river and they’re all shagged out. Really fucked.

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Date: 17/02/2020 18:54:37
From: roughbarked
ID: 1501784
Subject: re: Salmon questions

Ian said:


PermeateFree said:

Basically it has been said that the reason they travel up streams with huge difficulties, means the fewer will be the aquatic predators, parasites, etc. Also it means only the fittest survive to breed. It also means the energy required to reach the breeding site does not give the fish the luxury of investigating other streams to spawn.

To return to the same stream they had been bred, means that it is an accessible and suitable place to spawn, which if the stream was radically altered to deny access, presumably the fish would (if still fit) seek out another suitable stream or die trying.

There are many animals that return to their birth place to breed, which makes sense as they know as they survived, so likely would their offspring, but has also been mentioned they do not die once they have bred, which is probably due to the less arduous nature of getting there. Evolution is usually a trade-off between various necessities.

Most salmon die having spawned. They don’t eat much in the river and they’re all shagged out. Really fucked.

They go there to feed the bears. Fertilise the forests and make more rain.

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Date: 17/02/2020 21:58:13
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1501858
Subject: re: Salmon questions

For a brief overview of all fish that are known to return to their birthplace to breed, see link https://sci-hub.tw/https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1095-8649.2012.03349.x from https://tokyo3.org/forums/holiday/posts/1501848/

European, Japanese, American, Indonesian shortfin and some Australian (short-finned) eels breed in the open ocean and migrate up rivers for most of their lives. Japanese eels are known to be able to spawn more than once before dying, they choose relatively shallow ocean depths, of order 100 to 150 metres deep, over seamounts, for spawning. They are capable of diving much deeper than that.

I don’t know as much about the other eels.

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