Help required.. spending money question..what should I do ?

Question background..it started when I purchased a truck load of mulch.. after putting a good layer around all the veggies it looks like the mulch could be a tad toxic.. some plants not doing that well.

So I did do some research e.g asked at the local garden center.. was told I could do ..

A… scrape it off

B.. dig it in and add new compost.

C.. use raised bed that are full with new loam.

Now for some time I have been thinking about raised beds using the wicking system.. but have also thought buy a cultivator.. could be a fun tool and make digging a lot easer.

so my question is.

I have about $600 spare cash so should I :

A..Buy iron raised beds + a truck load of loam

B.. Get a small petrol driven cultivator and so some serious digging ?

cultivators are good for starting a new patch, but not for regular use as they can damage soil structure and create a hard pan at the cultivating depth. So if you have an area you want to start from scratch, then I would hire a cultivator but don’t think it would be worth buying one unless you are planning to start off a lot of new beds over time.

Have you checked the ph of the mulch you laid down? it may just need some adjusting. or it may have been too fresh and is stealing nitrogen from the soil to break down in which case a good dose of blood & bone and/or fish emulsion and/or liquid manures should rectify that.

Tell me about the mulch

what was it composed of?

The picture I painted may have been a tad on the gloomy side.. .. as I said “some plants” the ones that have just given up are cucumbers beetroot and purple pole beans…on the other hand tomato’s chilli capsicum scarlet runner and eggplant are all doing fine.

The mulch looked like it was 90% bark and wood chips with the other 10% looked like black sand.

Not sure how well it was composted.. at the recycle center it’s chipped and left in the open in large rows.. another thing I reckon it was very inert.. in 3 cubit mts I didn’t see a single worm …or any other living critter.

urban-wombat said:

Not sure how well it was composted.. at the recycle center it’s chipped and left in the open in large rows.. another thing I reckon it was very inert.. in 3 cubit mts I didn’t see a single worm …or any other living critter.

hmm, most mulch should improve with composting.

Many mulches draw nutrients from the soil and may cause nutrient lock up. It does pay to add nutrients under the mulch in such cases.

The black sand may be coal dust. This is added to many potting mixes.

Cucurbits prefer well rotted manures to be dug in before planting.

pull the mulch back from the plants that are not doing too well – and replant.
you seem to be blaming the mulch but is the soil ok? i would guess that it is – so replanting can work since any number of other causes could have caused the cueys and beans to fail.
it might pay to buy a bit of 75% shadecloth to cover the seed – since in the summer heat a covering is about the only way to keep the soil moist.

soil moisture.. yes.. tomatoes and aubergines, capsicum too; will all survive longer between waterings than will cucurbits and beans.

Some mulches do the opposite than expected and dry the soil or prevent water from reaching the soil. It is a delicate balance.

If we help you solve your problem without spending much of your valuable dinero.. You could always send the balance to a worthy cause.. such as myself ;)

urban-wombat said:

Help required.. spending money question..what should I do ?

Question background..it started when I purchased a truck load of mulch.. after putting a good layer around all the veggies it looks like the mulch could be a tad toxic.. some plants not doing that well.

So I did do some research e.g asked at the local garden center.. was told I could do ..

A… scrape it off

B.. dig it in and add new compost.

C.. use raised bed that are full with new loam.

Now for some time I have been thinking about raised beds using the wicking system.. but have also thought buy a cultivator.. could be a fun tool and make digging a lot easer.

so my question is.

I have about $600 spare cash so should I :

A..Buy iron raised beds + a truck load of loam

B.. Get a small petrol driven cultivator and so some serious digging ?

Save your $, scrape it off and compost it until it’s ok??

Save your $, scrape it off and compost it until it’s ok??

>

pretty much what I was saying in a roundabout way..

Though mulches can be composted on the ground this requires more water and additions than composting in a heap.

roughbarked said:

soil moisture.. yes.. tomatoes and aubergines, capsicum too; will all survive longer between waterings than will cucurbits and beans.

Some mulches do the opposite than expected and dry the soil or prevent water from reaching the soil. It is a delicate balance.

If the soil under the mulch is hydrophobic, then adding a mulch blanket will simply keep it that way, or can worsen the situation if the mulch keeps all the water to itself and the soil under is still dry then you can see collar rot appearing from the wet mulch blanket…

I’ve always recommended a good few applications of wetting agent (and Seasol and whatever fertiliser you are going to use) prior to adding mulch… get the soil perfect then add the mulch to help keep it that way.

hortfurball said:

roughbarked said:

soil moisture.. yes.. tomatoes and aubergines, capsicum too; will all survive longer between waterings than will cucurbits and beans.

Some mulches do the opposite than expected and dry the soil or prevent water from reaching the soil. It is a delicate balance.

If the soil under the mulch is hydrophobic, then adding a mulch blanket will simply keep it that way, or can worsen the situation if the mulch keeps all the water to itself and the soil under is still dry then you can see collar rot appearing from the wet mulch blanket…

I’ve always recommended a good few applications of wetting agent (and Seasol and whatever fertiliser you are going to use) prior to adding mulch… get the soil perfect then add the mulch to help keep it that way.

I’ve found that wetting agents are pretty much useless if a mulch isn’t held in place. Wetting agents make a lawn work well if a self mulching lawnmower is used. So well that watering becomes much less of a chore.

Stuff like Seasol conditions the soil to be able to support life. Compost teas are similar. The biodynamic cowdung in a cow horn thing is a similar concept.

Fertilizers needn’t be used if the nutrients are sufficient thus a more complete comprehension of the various components of the mulches one applies is required. One needs to be aware of what one is applying and how it will affect the soil under ones feet.

Various mulches work well in varying thicknesses with differing water application and nutrient supplement. Ph is an all important indicator as also is the hydrophobia mentioned above.

A lot of the science depends upon what you are intending to grow. As urban-wombat found out.

Firstly and foremost is that a soil needs a humus layer. Without this it is skating on thin ice.

roughbarked said:

Save your $, scrape it off and compost it until it’s ok??

>

pretty much what I was saying in a roundabout way..

Yep, I noticed that when I got up to your comments. Great minds think alike, or fools seldom differ? LOL!

I had the same problem with a new roses, bed, after 6 months it came good on its own and is now full of warm and all the goodies, shame it has been a shit year for growing roses , Waaaaaaaa

Thanks for all the help.. just found out part of the problem cold be lack of h2o.. mid last year the house behind my place was connected to the deep sewer.. so I’m not getting run-off.. anyway over the weekend I have removed as much of the mulch as possible and replaced with hay Col

urban-wombat said:

Thanks for all the help.. just found out part of the problem cold be lack of h2o.. mid last year the house behind my place was connected to the deep sewer.. so I’m not getting run-off.. anyway over the weekend I have removed as much of the mulch as possible and replaced with hay Col

Yeah.. but which type of hay?

roughbarked said:

urban-wombat said:

Thanks for all the help.. just found out part of the problem cold be lack of h2o.. mid last year the house behind my place was connected to the deep sewer.. so I’m not getting run-off.. anyway over the weekend I have removed as much of the mulch as possible and replaced with hay Col

Yeah.. but which type of hay?

You might think I am being picky here .. but the truth is.. one has to be, if one is trying to get balances correct.

roughbarked said:

urban-wombat said:

Thanks for all the help.. just found out part of the problem cold be lack of h2o.. mid last year the house behind my place was connected to the deep sewer.. so I’m not getting run-off.. anyway over the weekend I have removed as much of the mulch as possible and replaced with hay Col

Yeah.. but which type of hay?

alfalfa

urban-wombat said:

roughbarked said:

urban-wombat said:

Thanks for all the help.. just found out part of the problem cold be lack of h2o.. mid last year the house behind my place was connected to the deep sewer.. so I’m not getting run-off.. anyway over the weekend I have removed as much of the mulch as possible and replaced with hay Col

Yeah.. but which type of hay?

alfalfa

OK well you are going to get some good work from alfalfa without needing to change things much.

good choice. however did you have a lack of N in the soil beforehand? and.. how thick did you apply the alfalfa? at what stage of dehydration or decomposition was it upon application. These things all help.. when making decisions about what to apply and when.

urban-wombat said:

Thanks for all the help.. just found out part of the problem cold be lack of h2o.. mid last year the house behind my place was connected to the deep sewer.. so I’m not getting run-off.. anyway over the weekend I have removed as much of the mulch as possible and replaced with hay Col

bentonite clay is sold as Munns ‘wetta lawn and garden’. $18 for 10 kilos but very good for water retention.
thanks for keeping us updated.

roughbarked said:

urban-wombat said:

roughbarked said:

Yeah.. but which type of hay?

alfalfa

OK well you are going to get some good work from alfalfa without needing to change things much.

good choice. however did you have a lack of N in the soil beforehand? and.. how thick did you apply the alfalfa? at what stage of dehydration or decomposition was it upon application. These things all help.. when making decisions about what to apply and when.

Thanks

How thick a good hands depth.

I do think my soil may be low in N .. notice yellow growth on some of the lupines I planted as a cover crop

pepe said:

urban-wombat said:

Thanks for all the help.. just found out part of the problem cold be lack of h2o.. mid last year the house behind my place was connected to the deep sewer.. so I’m not getting run-off.. anyway over the weekend I have removed as much of the mulch as possible and replaced with hay Col

bentonite clay is sold as Munns ‘wetta lawn and garden’. $18 for 10 kilos but very good for water retention.
thanks for keeping us updated.

bentonites is great.. potters use it in glazes helps keep solids in solution

pepe said:

urban-wombat said:

Thanks for all the help.. just found out part of the problem cold be lack of h2o.. mid last year the house behind my place was connected to the deep sewer.. so I’m not getting run-off.. anyway over the weekend I have removed as much of the mulch as possible and replaced with hay Col

bentonite clay is sold as Munns ‘wetta lawn and garden’. $18 for 10 kilos but very good for water retention.
thanks for keeping us updated.

bentonites is great.. potters use it in glazes helps keep solids in solution

pepe said:

urban-wombat said:

Thanks for all the help.. just found out part of the problem cold be lack of h2o.. mid last year the house behind my place was connected to the deep sewer.. so I’m not getting run-off.. anyway over the weekend I have removed as much of the mulch as possible and replaced with hay Col

bentonite clay is sold as Munns ‘wetta lawn and garden’. $18 for 10 kilos but very good for water retention.
thanks for keeping us updated.

I used a wetting agent from Archem to fix a seed lawn I had sown straight on top of a patch which had been partially a holding place for natives in tubes and milk cartons ready for sale and partially an earlier seed lawn gone to mixed weeds.
Part of this area was both shaded and robbed from beneath by a walnut tree, part of it has the ignomy of a septic tank evaporation trench.

Part of the soil surface where I had the tubestock natives was mulched with blue metal and sand(to keep my feet dry) As the drought the GST and new taxation laws came into force with the era of John Howard, I was forced into early retirement from greening Australia.. thus I also had around 2,000 eucalypts that had settled in by growing through their pots and their polystyrene boxes crushing and wrecking all of that along the way. Many of these were already 150 mm in daimeter at ground level. Amongst it all was a Wonga vine that was already 3 m tall or long.. in a pot.

The Wonga vine now resides at the foot of the rainwater tank.. and is slowly recovering.. Though is already more than four metres long again.. on only one branch.
The Eucalypts all reside in the woodheap now and were cut below the ground and painted with glyphosate. I left a clump of three Belah that I just couldn’t remove due to their artistry of location. Though they cannot stay there forever. The major part of the old nursery holding area is now a tomato and other veg patch.
The rest of the soil was calcerous clay subsoil which had been dug up in the fitting of the septic tank.. and spread over the surface decades beforehand. Much walked upon this was an unprepared site with varying degrees of cultivation and soil types. Naturally hydrophobic calcerous clay loam plus patches of sand and gravel etc.. plus the septic evaporation trench all made for an likely discontinuous seed lawn. If you add half full sun all year and half 90% shade for half of the year.

I did dig along the evaporation trench to remove nut grass and cooch. There was somew digging to kill the trees. The rest of the area was not dug.

The surface was simply raked .. dug over or not., lawn seed sown and mulched lightly with very old grape marc mixed with eucalypt leaf mould.

Sprayed with approx half a litre of this wetting agent.. the area was transformed equally in sun shade soft and compressed soils.. across the range.
I had to prick tiny seedlings of nut grass, cooch and other weeds out all the way but now within a couple of years it is a lawn comprised of only one grass.

I’ve made two lots of tomato sauce collected bags of chillies, basil, zucchini, radish, snap and snow peas and onions plus a big bag of onion seed.. eaten heaps of fresh tomatoes, fed zillions of ants and birds etc plus added a hedge of Eremophila at the back.

I think there was a photo recently that “shot in the dark” that may have shown some of this.

The only mulch applied to the tomato bed was a few handfuls of wheat straw. The remaining mulch has come from what has grown in the spot.

my suggestion from all the above should easily be seen that despite whatever a site looks like or is prepared.. that soil chemistry means the equalisation of the realisation.

urban-wombat said:

I do think my soil may be low in N .. notice yellow growth on some of the lupines I planted as a cover crop

Hmmm, yellowing in Lupins is unlikely to be a lack of Nitrogen because aren’t Lupins a legume? And therefore be able to grab as much Nitrogen in the soil as possible?

pain master said:

urban-wombat said:

I do think my soil may be low in N .. notice yellow growth on some of the lupines I planted as a cover crop

Hmmm, yellowing in Lupins is unlikely to be a lack of Nitrogen because aren’t Lupins a legume? And therefore be able to grab as much Nitrogen in the soil as possible?

point is.. that legumes may be prevented from producing nitrogen by a soil lock-up of required nutrients.

harsh I know.. but you should see some of the soils I’ve farmed

roughbarked said:

pain master said:

urban-wombat said:

I do think my soil may be low in N .. notice yellow growth on some of the lupines I planted as a cover crop

Hmmm, yellowing in Lupins is unlikely to be a lack of Nitrogen because aren’t Lupins a legume? And therefore be able to grab as much Nitrogen in the soil as possible?

point is.. that legumes may be prevented from producing nitrogen by a soil lock-up of required nutrients.

harsh I know.. but you should see some of the soils I’ve farmed

fair point, but wouldn’t everything else display a lack of available nitrogen long before Lupins?

i’m probably the novice here – so a few questions

- UW what do you know of bentonite? does it act as an agent (catalyst) for the release of the soils minerals?

- RB and PM – why not just add manure to make sure. altho’ legumes are spose to make N don’t they need N to make N? they take it from the air i know but in my experience a doze of liquid fert will let you know if N is missing.

pepe said:

i’m probably the novice here – so a few questions

- UW what do you know of bentonite? does it act as an agent (catalyst) for the release of the soils minerals?

- RB and PM – why not just add manure to make sure. altho’ legumes are spose to make N don’t they need N to make N? they take it from the air i know but in my experience a doze of liquid fert will let you know if N is missing.

GF says in glazes, bentonite helps keep things in suspension, so if you have a glaze recipe (all sorts of minerals and clays, mixed with water), the solids do not settle to the bottom, but remain suspended.

So maybe in soils it helps keep the water around a little longer???

pain master said:

pepe said:

- UW what do you know of bentonite? does it act as an agent (catalyst) for the release of the soils minerals?

GF says in glazes, bentonite helps keep things in suspension, so if you have a glaze recipe (all sorts of minerals and clays, mixed with water), the solids do not settle to the bottom, but remain suspended.

So maybe in soils it helps keep the water around a little longer???

GF also says that when you use Bentonite in a glaze, it is never much more than 1 – 2% of the recipe.

pain master said:

pain master said:

pepe said:

- UW what do you know of bentonite? does it act as an agent (catalyst) for the release of the soils minerals?

GF says in glazes, bentonite helps keep things in suspension, so if you have a glaze recipe (all sorts of minerals and clays, mixed with water), the solids do not settle to the bottom, but remain suspended.

So maybe in soils it helps keep the water around a little longer???

GF also says that when you use Bentonite in a glaze, it is never much more than 1 – 2% of the recipe.

the plot thickens. and i remain in suspension – still not sure whether i should add it to clay. seems a ridiculous thing to do when the clay holds water on its own for two and a half days.

pepe said:

pain master said:

pain master said:

GF says in glazes, bentonite helps keep things in suspension, so if you have a glaze recipe (all sorts of minerals and clays, mixed with water), the solids do not settle to the bottom, but remain suspended.

So maybe in soils it helps keep the water around a little longer???

GF also says that when you use Bentonite in a glaze, it is never much more than 1 – 2% of the recipe.

the plot thickens. and i remain in suspension – still not sure whether i should add it to clay. seems a ridiculous thing to do when the clay holds water on its own for two and a half days.

I’ve always thought that bentonite was used when there is no clay – eg in sandy soils, to help retain moisture. It doesn’t sound useful to clay soils Pepe.

pepe said:

- RB and PM – why not just add manure to make sure. altho’ legumes are spose to make N don’t they need N to make N? they take it from the air i know but in my experience a doze of liquid fert will let you know if N is missing.

well it depends on the legume… and the way that it captures the nitrogen. Most leaf litter is devoid of nitrogen as trees tend to remove nitrogen from their leaves before shedding. You can get nitrogen from ground rock, organic material (especially dead corpses) and often, the Nitrogen needs to bond with hydrogen to form Ammonia an dthen needs to oxidise and form nitrates.

Now some of the legumes have bacteria attached to their roots which can perform this trick to the trees benefit.

So a legume can survive on pretty ordinary soils which is why I think it isn’t a nitrogen problem that Urb has because his lupins are displaying a deficiency.

orchid40 said:

pepe said:

pain master said:

GF also says that when you use Bentonite in a glaze, it is never much more than 1 – 2% of the recipe.

the plot thickens. and i remain in suspension – still not sure whether i should add it to clay. seems a ridiculous thing to do when the clay holds water on its own for two and a half days.

I’ve always thought that bentonite was used when there is no clay – eg in sandy soils, to help retain moisture. It doesn’t sound useful to clay soils Pepe.

That’s how I use it.. don’t know anything about non-sandy soils though.

pepe said:

pain master said:

pain master said:

GF says in glazes, bentonite helps keep things in suspension, so if you have a glaze recipe (all sorts of minerals and clays, mixed with water), the solids do not settle to the bottom, but remain suspended.

So maybe in soils it helps keep the water around a little longer???

GF also says that when you use Bentonite in a glaze, it is never much more than 1 – 2% of the recipe.

the plot thickens. and i remain in suspension – still not sure whether i should add it to clay. seems a ridiculous thing to do when the clay holds water on its own for two and a half days.

bentonite is a clay of sorts and it would seem to bond both well with the clay already in the soil and the water that’s available. perhaps you need some more air in your soil? 4 things will keep your soil alive; water, air, minerals and organic material.

pain master said:

pepe said:

i’m probably the novice here – so a few questions

- UW what do you know of bentonite? does it act as an agent (catalyst) for the release of the soils minerals?

- RB and PM – why not just add manure to make sure. altho’ legumes are spose to make N don’t they need N to make N? they take it from the air i know but in my experience a doze of liquid fert will let you know if N is missing.

So maybe in soils it helps keep the water around a little longer???

yest it will hold great amounts of water.

just made an executive decision…..take up wood turning LOL..no just kidding..so I will not bother about using the crap beds for veggies for a couple of months..just give them a good feed and rest.

yest it will hold great amounts of water.

that much i know because i use it in pots and they become extremely heavy

just made an executive decision…..take up wood turning LOL..no just kidding..so I will not bother about using the crap beds for veggies for a couple of months..just give them a good feed and rest.

good innit – you get all this free advice and then you get to do whatever you want. it has helped me many times.

pepe said:

good innit – you get all this free advice and then you get to do whatever you want. it has helped me many times.

Sorry pepe I didn’t wanna up-set you or any of this forums members.. and I’m most grateful for all the excellent advice.. and taken much of it on-board.. or I may have misunderstood your comment

urban-wombat said:

pepe said:

good innit – you get all this free advice and then you get to do whatever you want. it has helped me many times.

Sorry pepe I didn’t wanna up-set you or any of this forums members.. and I’m most grateful for all the excellent advice.. and taken much of it on-board.. or I may have misunderstood your comment

I’m sure pepe was just being light-hearted :) I do that all the time on these forums – ask a question, get way more info and more complicated info than my brain can deal with, and so end up just relying on usual trial and error approach :)

bon008 said:

urban-wombat said:

pepe said:

good innit – you get all this free advice and then you get to do whatever you want. it has helped me many times.

Sorry pepe I didn’t wanna up-set you or any of this forums members.. and I’m most grateful for all the excellent advice.. and taken much of it on-board.. or I may have misunderstood your comment

I’m sure pepe was just being light-hearted :) I do that all the time on these forums – ask a question, get way more info and more complicated info than my brain can deal with, and so end up just relying on usual trial and error approach :)

I took it that Pepe meant……..

You get other folks ideas and advice and then this gets you thinking….. and then hey presto…..the answer pops into your head that suits you and your area.

Lucky1 said:

bon008 said:

urban-wombat said:

Sorry pepe I didn’t wanna up-set you or any of this forums members.. and I’m most grateful for all the excellent advice.. and taken much of it on-board.. or I may have misunderstood your comment

I’m sure pepe was just being light-hearted :) I do that all the time on these forums – ask a question, get way more info and more complicated info than my brain can deal with, and so end up just relying on usual trial and error approach :)

I took it that Pepe meant……..

You get other folks ideas and advice and then this gets you thinking….. and then hey presto…..the answer pops into your head that suits you and your area.

Absolutely right Lucky.

Pepe knows we get ideas and inspirations from others in here, as he does I’m sure , then if our own idea wasn’t too far wrong, we go do it.

bon008 said:

urban-wombat said:

pepe said:

good innit – you get all this free advice and then you get to do whatever you want. it has helped me many times.

Sorry pepe I didn’t wanna up-set you or any of this forums members.. and I’m most grateful for all the excellent advice.. and taken much of it on-board.. or I may have misunderstood your comment

I’m sure pepe was just being light-hearted :) I do that all the time on these forums – ask a question, get way more info and more complicated info than my brain can deal with, and so end up just relying on usual trial and error approach :)

I’m sure I misunderstood ( at times I feel like I’m not the sharpest tool in the shed ) sometime the scribed word can be a TAD blunt

already made new comment a couple of posting back

urban-wombat said:

already made new comment a couple of posting back

Pepe looks like I didn’t get the drift of what you where saying.. sorry for any prob’s it’s caused Col

urban-wombat said:

pepe said:

good innit – you get all this free advice and then you get to do whatever you want. it has helped me many times.

Sorry pepe I didn’t wanna up-set you or any of this forums members.. and I’m most grateful for all the excellent advice.. and taken much of it on-board.. or I may have misunderstood your comment

i’m not upset. sorry – might have sounded like it?
i always do whatever – despite any advice – so i’m glad to hear when others make independent decisions based on how they feel rather than on the advice given.

you should put in a green manure crop rather than rest it – chuckle – probably that’s the next advice you will get.

urban-wombat said:

urban-wombat said:

already made new comment a couple of posting back

Pepe looks like I didn’t get the drift of what you where saying.. sorry for any prob’s it’s caused Col

col
i take you to be an extremely good gardener who’s been with us (the earlier forum) since before i arrived.
you can’t insult me because i know – from years of being insulted by experts – that only the truth hurts.
… and if its the truth – well then it shouldn’t hurt so much as it enlightens.

one other thing – i hate it when someone takes our advice and then says – it didn’t work.
so i’m happy when a bloke is independent enuff to make his own decisions.
truth is – i’ve given advice that has proved to be wrong – not surprising really since we are all in the dark as to the actual problem and are only guessing via the info coming over the ether.

so have a beer on me – and btw – is the soil on your block sandy? – or does albany have good soil?
cheers trev

urban-wombat said:

bon008 said:

urban-wombat said:

Sorry pepe I didn’t wanna up-set you or any of this forums members.. and I’m most grateful for all the excellent advice.. and taken much of it on-board.. or I may have misunderstood your comment

I’m sure pepe was just being light-hearted :) I do that all the time on these forums – ask a question, get way more info and more complicated info than my brain can deal with, and so end up just relying on usual trial and error approach :)

I’m sure I misunderstood ( at times I feel like I’m not the sharpest tool in the shed ) sometime the scribed word can be a TAD blunt

Isn’t that why smilies were invented? Because you can’t “hear” the tone of voice or see the facial expressions which are every bit a part of the communication as the actual word?

pepe said:

so have a beer on me – and btw – is the soil on your block sandy? – or does albany have good soil?
cheers trev

I’ve been wondering that, too…

bon008 said:

pepe said:

so have a beer on me – and btw – is the soil on your block sandy? – or does albany have good soil?
cheers trev

I’ve been wondering that, too…

It’s total crap.. my putuer is playing up.. will log off and be back later

AnneS said:

Isn’t that why smilies were invented? Because you can’t “hear” the tone of voice or see the facial expressions which are every bit a part of the communication as the actual word?

Let’s not go back to “Ken” and those grating “smilies” of his. I thought it was just me, not the smilies but how he used them, then I read a couple of times on another forum how it got up the noses of some of the contributors there, too… :-)

“so have a beer on me – and btw – is the soil on your block sandy? – or does albany have good soil?
cheers trev”

________________________________________________________________________________________________-
It’s one of those days the pad on my lap-top is playing up.. using mouse at the moment.. it looks like it’s working okay ..fingers crossed.

The soil

As I say it’s total crap .. black silica sand.. some time back I did mix a sample with kaolin and fire it at 1200c it started to flow .. the result was a dirty cream colour very rough glaze.

About 1mt down it’s lime stone .. it isn’t much use as the surface is always in need of lime.

Each year I add umpteen bags of cow and sheep poo .. compost by the bucket load.. rock dust.. lime .. green manure…D’ lifter .. straw.. pea hay…and within a blink of an eye its sand again.

One other thing I live on the harbour side and wind is a real problem,Col

Dinetta said:

AnneS said:

Isn’t that why smilies were invented? Because you can’t “hear” the tone of voice or see the facial expressions which are every bit a part of the communication as the actual word?

Let’s not go back to “Ken” and those grating “smilies” of his. I thought it was just me, not the smilies but how he used them, then I read a couple of times on another forum how it got up the noses of some of the contributors there, too… :-)

Can’t say I noticed.

Dinetta said:

AnneS said:

Isn’t that why smilies were invented? Because you can’t “hear” the tone of voice or see the facial expressions which are every bit a part of the communication as the actual word?

Let’s not go back to “Ken” and those grating “smilies” of his. I thought it was just me, not the smilies but how he used them, then I read a couple of times on another forum how it got up the noses of some of the contributors there, too… :-)

LOL. I wasn’t advocating indiscriminate use of smilies, just making an observation as to why they were invented.

urban-wombat said:

“so have a beer on me – and btw – is the soil on your block sandy? – or does albany have good soil?
cheers trev”

________________________________________________________________________________________________-
It’s one of those days the pad on my lap-top is playing up.. using mouse at the moment.. it looks like it’s working okay ..fingers crossed.

The soil

As I say it’s total crap .. black silica sand.. some time back I did mix a sample with kaolin and fire it at 1200c it started to flow .. the result was a dirty cream colour very rough glaze.

About 1mt down it’s lime stone .. it isn’t much use as the surface is always in need of lime.

Each year I add umpteen bags of cow and sheep poo .. compost by the bucket load.. rock dust.. lime .. green manure…D’ lifter .. straw.. pea hay…and within a blink of an eye its sand again.

One other thing I live on the harbour side and wind is a real problem,Col

smiling in my beard at the comments made by others about free advice.. We are all in this together and can type out advice madly but none of us can see your garden. ;) Thus our advice is impractical unless you can draw something from it for your needs.

OK my soil is patchily wind eroded red sand over calcerous clay loam on top of calcrete(limestone). So not a lot different apart from the colour of the sand.

Most Australian soils are indeed old and very weathered. Our clays are amongst the heaviest. Our sands just grit.

Mulches and materials for compost are often a bit thin on the ground. Droughts don’t help. You have probably heard the old saying make hay while the sun shines. My motto is gather as much organic material as one can while it is there to be got.

I’d steer away from bentonite as a solution to your problem. Bentonite is often used to create a water barrier. ie: stop water from going past it.
A soil sponge will collect and hold water while providing nourishment for life in the soil. It will create a humus layer and this in turn will feed worms which will aerate your soil better than a plough.

Yep give that man a medal for mentioning green manure. ;) However, green manure can only be had for use, if there is above average rainfall.

Sadly yes it all turns to dust again at the blink of an eye and this I find is exacerbated by the need for us to be away from our gardens working for the man to pay the bills.

keep on keeping on gardening :)

now.. about Nitrogen.

Peas and beans the garden varieties don’t actually fix nitrogen as well as most of us think. Peas may get along better than string beans do without added nitrogen but they both will need it. However too much nitrogen will make them feel ill. If you wish to use the nitrogen fixing capabilities of legumes then it is wise to rotate your garden beds leaving some to fallow with clovers or lucerne growing in them, which you turn in as green manure before you actually use the beds for growing veges.

Lupins are not going to fix nitrogen if they are unhealthy due to soil problems. There isn’t much point in expecting them to be of much use in this regard unless used as a fallow crop as suggested above.

Above all else despite the best of our efforts most will be in vain unless we have the required amount of water at hand, preferably stored in the soil and protected by a mulch sponge. We can be sure that without water pretty much none of the nutrients are going to be working properly.

pain master said:

roughbarked said:

pain master said:

Hmmm, yellowing in Lupins is unlikely to be a lack of Nitrogen because aren’t Lupins a legume? And therefore be able to grab as much Nitrogen in the soil as possible?

point is.. that legumes may be prevented from producing nitrogen by a soil lock-up of required nutrients.

harsh I know.. but you should see some of the soils I’ve farmed

fair point, but wouldn’t everything else display a lack of available nitrogen long before Lupins?

Legumes grab nitrogen from the air and fix it into the soil. Lack of nitrogen in the soil wouldn’t affect lupins at all.

urban-wombat said:

urban-wombat said:

already made new comment a couple of posting back

Pepe looks like I didn’t get the drift of what you where saying.. sorry for any prob’s it’s caused Col

Don’t stress Col, Pepe won’t be. :)
You’ll get used to us in time, we’re a chilled bunch.

pepe said:

so have a beer on me – and btw – is the soil on your block sandy? – or does albany have good soil?
cheers trev

See UW? Told ya, Pepe’s a gem, he’d never hold a little misunderstanding against you.

It’s early days for you with this forum…when you first join it’s hard to know how to read someone, but after a while the disembodied words appear to develop their own individual voices devoid of sarcasm or ill intent…well ok, sometimes a little sarcasm, but only in fun.

Hehehe, now I know your name Pepe. Don’t worry, I will probably forget by tomorrow…

Dinetta said:

AnneS said:

Isn’t that why smilies were invented? Because you can’t “hear” the tone of voice or see the facial expressions which are every bit a part of the communication as the actual word?

Let’s not go back to “Ken” and those grating “smilies” of his. I thought it was just me, not the smilies but how he used them, then I read a couple of times on another forum how it got up the noses of some of the contributors there, too… :-)

I must have missed this, are we talking someone using smilies to mask snide comments and then claim total innocence?

urban-wombat said:

Each year I add umpteen bags of cow and sheep poo .. compost by the bucket load.. rock dust.. lime .. green manure…D’ lifter .. straw.. pea hay…and within a blink of an eye its sand again.

Yep, that’s our wonderful WA sand, one of the least fertile soils in the world. (I use the term ‘soils’ loosely, LOL)

If you think about it, it’s quite logical that all the goodies would leach straight through this loose sand. You could try adding some clay to increase surface tension and see if it holds onto any of the goodies for a bit longer. Ultimately it will always revert to sand, but it may help delay it a bit.

urban-wombat said:

As I say it’s total crap .. black silica sand.. some time back I did mix a sample with kaolin and fire it at 1200c it started to flow .. the result was a dirty cream colour very rough glaze.

Inneresting… both silica and kaolin (1740c) need higher temps than 1200c in order to melt. Pure silica melts at 1710c (according to Greg Daly, “not only do these books behind me look good, they’re full of interesting information”; quote The Simpsons). So in order to get the sand and kaolin to flow, a flux is required…

Hmmm, this could come from either the calcium carbonate (whiting) from your limestone, the salt in your soil (you’re near the seaside) or a combination.

Now you say your organics just disappear you say? Where do you reckon they goes?

bubba louie said:

Dinetta said:

AnneS said:

Isn’t that why smilies were invented? Because you can’t “hear” the tone of voice or see the facial expressions which are every bit a part of the communication as the actual word?

Let’s not go back to “Ken” and those grating “smilies” of his. I thought it was just me, not the smilies but how he used them, then I read a couple of times on another forum how it got up the noses of some of the contributors there, too… :-)

Can’t say I noticed.

same here… I thought it was Ken harping on about the weather on the tech forum that annoyed others? Didn’t bother me done.

Each year I add umpteen bags of cow and sheep poo .. compost by the bucket load.. rock dust.. lime .. green manure…D’ lifter .. straw.. pea hay…and within a blink of an eye its sand again.
——————————————————————
this topic is becoming an epic.

you might have to do a pete cundal and fully import your topsoil. his ‘pete’s patch’ has no original soil in it.

roughbarked said:

Sadly yes it all turns to dust again at the blink of an eye and this I find is exacerbated by the need for us to be away from our gardens working for the man to pay the bills.

AMEN to this!

I had a quick check of the vegie patch this morning while filling up the dog’s water bowl outside. Looks like about half of the marigolds are going to be lost to the heat and the slaters. Might have saved some more if I watered this morning (36 forecast today, 37 tmw, 39 day after), but I had to get to work instead. I’ll take out some bokashi juice, kelp juice, and worm juice (if there’s some spare today at work) tonight, but it may be too late by then.

pepe said:

Each year I add umpteen bags of cow and sheep poo .. compost by the bucket load.. rock dust.. lime .. green manure…D’ lifter .. straw.. pea hay…and within a blink of an eye its sand again.
——————————————————————
this topic is becoming an epic.

you might have to do a pete cundal and fully import your topsoil. his ‘pete’s patch’ has no original soil in it.

No point in importing topsoil, as topsoil also has sand in it. The last thing any of us need in WA is MORE sand. I’m always astonished when clients ask if they should bring in topsoil. My answer is always to get soil improver and mix that into their existing sand to create the sort of luxurious loamy soil they are after.

Soil improver consists of mixed manures, peat, sawdust and Gig Gin Loam. Good stuff for our sand. The trick is to add so much at once that the leaching effect is minimised.

hortfurball said:

pepe said:

Each year I add umpteen bags of cow and sheep poo .. compost by the bucket load.. rock dust.. lime .. green manure…D’ lifter .. straw.. pea hay…and within a blink of an eye its sand again.
——————————————————————
this topic is becoming an epic.

you might have to do a pete cundal and fully import your topsoil. his ‘pete’s patch’ has no original soil in it.

No point in importing topsoil, as topsoil also has sand in it. The last thing any of us need in WA is MORE sand. I’m always astonished when clients ask if they should bring in topsoil. My answer is always to get soil improver and mix that into their existing sand to create the sort of luxurious loamy soil they are after.

Soil improver consists of mixed manures, peat, sawdust and Gig Gin Loam. Good stuff for our sand. The trick is to add so much at once that the leaching effect is minimised.

well alright picky LOL.
i meant the combo pete used – mushroom compost, compost, b&b, cow and chook manure.
anyrate her nibs would know – soil conditioner in bulk is the sure way of fixing the problem.

bon008 said:

roughbarked said:

Sadly yes it all turns to dust again at the blink of an eye and this I find is exacerbated by the need for us to be away from our gardens working for the man to pay the bills.

AMEN to this!

I had a quick check of the vegie patch this morning while filling up the dog’s water bowl outside. Looks like about half of the marigolds are going to be lost to the heat and the slaters. Might have saved some more if I watered this morning (36 forecast today, 37 tmw, 39 day after), but I had to get to work instead. I’ll take out some bokashi juice, kelp juice, and worm juice (if there’s some spare today at work) tonight, but it may be too late by then.

Poor old WA is copping it. Very uncomfortable days. Not to mention the fires.

pomolo said:

bon008 said:

roughbarked said:

Sadly yes it all turns to dust again at the blink of an eye and this I find is exacerbated by the need for us to be away from our gardens working for the man to pay the bills.

AMEN to this!

I had a quick check of the vegie patch this morning while filling up the dog’s water bowl outside. Looks like about half of the marigolds are going to be lost to the heat and the slaters. Might have saved some more if I watered this morning (36 forecast today, 37 tmw, 39 day after), but I had to get to work instead. I’ll take out some bokashi juice, kelp juice, and worm juice (if there’s some spare today at work) tonight, but it may be too late by then.

Poor old WA is copping it. Very uncomfortable days. Not to mention the fires.

Yep.. no rain at all in December, and it’s starting to feel as if we won’t get any in Jan, either :(