I have got a question. Summer is longer now. So why is it that in this district people are grizzling about how late the homegrown tomato crops are? I’ve never had tomatoes for Christmas, which Mum sometimes managed in Melbourne growing them against a brick wall, but I came to the conclusion many years ago that here they are an Autumn fruit. I’m now starting to pick some each day in the last week.

This observation does not gel with Summer starting earlier. We all get our plants in as soon as it is frost-safe. We should be getting earlier fruit than 30 years ago.

buffy said:

I have got a question. Summer is longer now. So why is it that in this district people are grizzling about how late the homegrown tomato crops are? I’ve never had tomatoes for Christmas, which Mum sometimes managed in Melbourne growing them against a brick wall, but I came to the conclusion many years ago that here they are an Autumn fruit. I’m now starting to pick some each day in the last week.

This observation does not gel with Summer starting earlier. We all get our plants in as soon as it is frost-safe. We should be getting earlier fruit than 30 years ago.

Maybe no-one told the tomatoes that summer is longer now?

buffy said:

I have got a question. Summer is longer now. So why is it that in this district people are grizzling about how late the homegrown tomato crops are? I’ve never had tomatoes for Christmas, which Mum sometimes managed in Melbourne growing them against a brick wall, but I came to the conclusion many years ago that here they are an Autumn fruit. I’m now starting to pick some each day in the last week.

This observation does not gel with Summer starting earlier. We all get our plants in as soon as it is frost-safe. We should be getting earlier fruit than 30 years ago.

I doubt air temperature is the only variable that affects plant fruiting.

poikilotherm said:

buffy said:

I have got a question. Summer is longer now. So why is it that in this district people are grizzling about how late the homegrown tomato crops are? I’ve never had tomatoes for Christmas, which Mum sometimes managed in Melbourne growing them against a brick wall, but I came to the conclusion many years ago that here they are an Autumn fruit. I’m now starting to pick some each day in the last week.

This observation does not gel with Summer starting earlier. We all get our plants in as soon as it is frost-safe. We should be getting earlier fruit than 30 years ago.

I doubt air temperature is the only variable that affects plant fruiting.

And I doubt that temperatures in SE Australia have been higher than average this year (after the end of the drought, obviously).

Although I haven’t actually checked.

Seems I was wrong:

http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/dwo/202002/html/IDCJDW2124.202002.shtml

at least for max temps in Sydney in Feb.

Average max was 27.1 and the long term average is 25.8.

Daily sunshine hours were down though (6.3 vs 6.7 average).

I am reminded by NSW Dep’t of Agriculture spsruiking up blueberries in the Armidale region, because the temperature profile was ideal. Some farmers spent a motza to grow this crop. They didn’t flower (and fruit).

Turn out that the flowering is triggered by short daylight length as well as temperature. The temperature was right, the daylight length was wrong. Oops.

Tomatoes may be similar – possibly requiring longer daylight length to trigger flowering.

Michael V said:

I am reminded by NSW Dep’t of Agriculture spsruiking up blueberries in the Armidale region, because the temperature profile was ideal. Some farmers spent a motza to grow this crop. They didn’t flower (and fruit).

Turn out that the flowering is triggered by short daylight length as well as temperature. The temperature was right, the daylight length was wrong. Oops.

Tomatoes may be similar – possibly requiring longer daylight length to trigger flowering.

Makes sense. More sun might be more important to them than more heat.

The Rev Dodgson said:

poikilotherm said:

buffy said:

I have got a question. Summer is longer now. So why is it that in this district people are grizzling about how late the homegrown tomato crops are? I’ve never had tomatoes for Christmas, which Mum sometimes managed in Melbourne growing them against a brick wall, but I came to the conclusion many years ago that here they are an Autumn fruit. I’m now starting to pick some each day in the last week.

This observation does not gel with Summer starting earlier. We all get our plants in as soon as it is frost-safe. We should be getting earlier fruit than 30 years ago.

I doubt air temperature is the only variable that affects plant fruiting.

And I doubt that temperatures in SE Australia have been higher than average this year (after the end of the drought, obviously).

Although I haven’t actually checked.

The times they are a changing.

Yes, it was always the thing to do. Plant tomatoes early and protect them from frost. Get the earliest tomatoes. We don’t even get those frosts so much anymore but yet the tomatoes do not perform in the same way.

It isn’t so much about the length of the summer as it may seem. It is more that the individual days and weeks no longer provide the right conditions.

Michael V said:

I am reminded by NSW Dep’t of Agriculture spsruiking up blueberries in the Armidale region, because the temperature profile was ideal. Some farmers spent a motza to grow this crop. They didn’t flower (and fruit).

Turn out that the flowering is triggered by short daylight length as well as temperature. The temperature was right, the daylight length was wrong. Oops.

Tomatoes may be similar – possibly requiring longer daylight length to trigger flowering.

Yes, while wandering down to the cafe, daylight hours occurred to me. It’s relevent for apples and stuff, I don’t know why I didn’t think of it for tomatoes. Perhaps our hotter days have been at the wrong daylength.

roughbarked said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

poikilotherm said:

I doubt air temperature is the only variable that affects plant fruiting.

And I doubt that temperatures in SE Australia have been higher than average this year (after the end of the drought, obviously).

Although I haven’t actually checked.

The times they are a changing.

Yes, it was always the thing to do. Plant tomatoes early and protect them from frost. Get the earliest tomatoes. We don’t even get those frosts so much anymore but yet the tomatoes do not perform in the same way.

It isn’t so much about the length of the summer as it may seem. It is more that the individual days and weeks no longer provide the right conditions.

Oh, and this end when the days are shortening again, it’s imperative to pick any tomato that is even beginning to show colour, because the cool nights slow down the ripening.

buffy said:

Michael V said:

I am reminded by NSW Dep’t of Agriculture spsruiking up blueberries in the Armidale region, because the temperature profile was ideal. Some farmers spent a motza to grow this crop. They didn’t flower (and fruit).

Turn out that the flowering is triggered by short daylight length as well as temperature. The temperature was right, the daylight length was wrong. Oops.

Tomatoes may be similar – possibly requiring longer daylight length to trigger flowering.

Yes, while wandering down to the cafe, daylight hours occurred to me. It’s relevent for apples and stuff, I don’t know why I didn’t think of it for tomatoes. Perhaps our hotter days have been at the wrong daylength.

could having daylight saving be an issue?

ChrispenEvan said:

buffy said:

Michael V said:

I am reminded by NSW Dep’t of Agriculture spsruiking up blueberries in the Armidale region, because the temperature profile was ideal. Some farmers spent a motza to grow this crop. They didn’t flower (and fruit).

Turn out that the flowering is triggered by short daylight length as well as temperature. The temperature was right, the daylight length was wrong. Oops.

Tomatoes may be similar – possibly requiring longer daylight length to trigger flowering.

Yes, while wandering down to the cafe, daylight hours occurred to me. It’s relevent for apples and stuff, I don’t know why I didn’t think of it for tomatoes. Perhaps our hotter days have been at the wrong daylength.

could having daylight saving be an issue?

Of course! It fades the red out of the tomatoes…

ChrispenEvan said:

buffy said:

Michael V said:

I am reminded by NSW Dep’t of Agriculture spsruiking up blueberries in the Armidale region, because the temperature profile was ideal. Some farmers spent a motza to grow this crop. They didn’t flower (and fruit).

Turn out that the flowering is triggered by short daylight length as well as temperature. The temperature was right, the daylight length was wrong. Oops.

Tomatoes may be similar – possibly requiring longer daylight length to trigger flowering.

Yes, while wandering down to the cafe, daylight hours occurred to me. It’s relevent for apples and stuff, I don’t know why I didn’t think of it for tomatoes. Perhaps our hotter days have been at the wrong daylength.

could having daylight saving be an issue?

Oh, the Bjelke-Petersen effect.

Michael V said:

I am reminded by NSW Dep’t of Agriculture spsruiking up blueberries in the Armidale region, because the temperature profile was ideal. Some farmers spent a motza to grow this crop. They didn’t flower (and fruit).

Turn out that the flowering is triggered by short daylight length as well as temperature. The temperature was right, the daylight length was wrong. Oops.

Tomatoes may be similar – possibly requiring longer daylight length to trigger flowering.

Just squoosing this post amongst to tomato posts…

The thing to keep in mind is that some crops are particular
to grow under the same conditions under which they evolved.

The closer you can mimic the lee side of an Andean range the better

A rain shadow is a dry region of land on the side of a mountain range that is protected from the prevailing winds. Prevailing winds are the winds that occur most of the time in a particular location on the Earth. The protected side of a mountain range is also called the lee side or the down-wind side.

Tomatoes evolved under cool conditions… BOTTOM WATERED
By Glacial Melt Water in well-drained gravel

Blueberries evolved in light forests (light shade in moist rich acid soil)

…also take Growing Degree Days into account

poikilotherm said:

buffy said:

I have got a question. Summer is longer now. So why is it that in this district people are grizzling about how late the homegrown tomato crops are? I’ve never had tomatoes for Christmas, which Mum sometimes managed in Melbourne growing them against a brick wall, but I came to the conclusion many years ago that here they are an Autumn fruit. I’m now starting to pick some each day in the last week.

This observation does not gel with Summer starting earlier. We all get our plants in as soon as it is frost-safe. We should be getting earlier fruit than 30 years ago.

I doubt air temperature is the only variable that affects plant fruiting.

It was interesting to watch the big native frangipani’s flowering season. It shed about half its foliage in November when it was full-on drought and heavy smoke everywhere. (it was still getting occasional soaking watering)
It had a very light flowering and fruiting.

Ian said:

poikilotherm said:

buffy said:

I have got a question. Summer is longer now. So why is it that in this district people are grizzling about how late the homegrown tomato crops are? I’ve never had tomatoes for Christmas, which Mum sometimes managed in Melbourne growing them against a brick wall, but I came to the conclusion many years ago that here they are an Autumn fruit. I’m now starting to pick some each day in the last week.

This observation does not gel with Summer starting earlier. We all get our plants in as soon as it is frost-safe. We should be getting earlier fruit than 30 years ago.

I doubt air temperature is the only variable that affects plant fruiting.

It was interesting to watch the big native frangipani’s flowering season. It shed about half its foliage in November when it was full-on drought and heavy smoke everywhere. (it was still getting occasional soaking watering)
It had a very light flowering and fruiting.

We didn’t get the smoke this season. My native frangipanis flowered as usual for about 3 months. I love those trees. They perfume about a 100m radius, I reckon.

buffy said:

roughbarked said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

And I doubt that temperatures in SE Australia have been higher than average this year (after the end of the drought, obviously).

Although I haven’t actually checked.

The times they are a changing.

Yes, it was always the thing to do. Plant tomatoes early and protect them from frost. Get the earliest tomatoes. We don’t even get those frosts so much anymore but yet the tomatoes do not perform in the same way.

It isn’t so much about the length of the summer as it may seem. It is more that the individual days and weeks no longer provide the right conditions.

Oh, and this end when the days are shortening again, it’s imperative to pick any tomato that is even beginning to show colour, because the cool nights slow down the ripening.

Yes.

ChrispenEvan said:

buffy said:

Michael V said:

I am reminded by NSW Dep’t of Agriculture spsruiking up blueberries in the Armidale region, because the temperature profile was ideal. Some farmers spent a motza to grow this crop. They didn’t flower (and fruit).

Turn out that the flowering is triggered by short daylight length as well as temperature. The temperature was right, the daylight length was wrong. Oops.

Tomatoes may be similar – possibly requiring longer daylight length to trigger flowering.

Yes, while wandering down to the cafe, daylight hours occurred to me. It’s relevent for apples and stuff, I don’t know why I didn’t think of it for tomatoes. Perhaps our hotter days have been at the wrong daylength.

could having daylight saving be an issue?

Only for the humans.

buffy said:

Ian said:

poikilotherm said:

I doubt air temperature is the only variable that affects plant fruiting.

It was interesting to watch the big native frangipani’s flowering season. It shed about half its foliage in November when it was full-on drought and heavy smoke everywhere. (it was still getting occasional soaking watering)
It had a very light flowering and fruiting.

We didn’t get the smoke this season. My natives flowered as usual for about 3 months. I love those trees. They perfume about a 100m radius, I reckon.

Yes, they’re about the only native that seems to require a bit of TLC.

The smell takes me back to childhood and grandparents’ place.

I smell it :)

Ian said:

buffy said:

Ian said:

It was interesting to watch the big native frangipani’s flowering season. It shed about half its foliage in November when it was full-on drought and heavy smoke everywhere. (it was still getting occasional soaking watering)
It had a very light flowering and fruiting.

We didn’t get the smoke this season. My natives flowered as usual for about 3 months. I love those trees. They perfume about a 100m radius, I reckon.

Yes, they’re about the only native that seems to require a bit of TLC.

The smell takes me back to childhood and grandparents’ place.

I smell it :)

Native?

Hymensporum is a native but Plumeria isn’t.

buffy said:

Summer is longer now.

Is it though?

roughbarked said:

Ian said:

buffy said:

We didn’t get the smoke this season. My natives flowered as usual for about 3 months. I love those trees. They perfume about a 100m radius, I reckon.

Yes, they’re about the only native that seems to require a bit of TLC.

The smell takes me back to childhood and grandparents’ place.

I smell it :)

Native?

Hymensporum is a native but Plumeria isn’t.

I know.

Ian said:

roughbarked said:

Ian said:

Yes, they’re about the only native that seems to require a bit of TLC.

The smell takes me back to childhood and grandparents’ place.

I smell it :)

Native?

Hymensporum is a native but Plumeria isn’t.

I know.

That picture is not Hymenosporum.

dv said:

buffy said:

Summer is longer now.

Is it though?

Didn’t you see the headlines last month? The scientists say it is.

buffy said:

Ian said:

roughbarked said:

Native?

Hymensporum is a native but Plumeria isn’t.

I know.

That picture is not Hymenosporum.

Well, y’ see.. I thought from the context and the image an intelligent person would have worked out that I was talking about
Hymensporum and my place and Plumeria

buffy said:

Ian said:

I know.

That picture is not Hymenosporum.

Well, y’ see.. I thought from the context and the image an intelligent person would have worked out that I was talking about
Hymensporum at my place and Plumeria at the abode of the avis.

I’m confused now. Are you talking about the perfume of the Hymenosporum (which, at least here, is pretty hardy and doesn’t need much help to grow at all) or the exotic one in the picture (which does need looking after)? They don’t actually smell the same.

They don’t actually smell the same

—

They’re very similar imo

Ian said:

They don’t actually smell the same

—

They’re very similar imo

Oh, I’m quite smell oriented. They don’t smell the same to me.

buffy said:

dv said:

buffy said:

Summer is longer now.

Is it though?

Didn’t you see the headlines last month? The scientists say it is.

I don’t really follow the news.

How can they tell the difference between summer getting longer and things generally getting warmer?

buffy said:

Ian said:

roughbarked said:

Native?

Hymensporum is a native but Plumeria isn’t.

I know.

That picture is not Hymenosporum.

Which is why I used a question mark.

Australia’s summers have become twice as long as its winters amid increasing temperatures driven by climate change, according to new weather data analysis.

The Australia Institute found that summer across most of the country over the past 20 years was about a month longer than in the mid-20th century, while winters had become shorter.

Between 2014 and 2018, summers were found to be about 50% longer.

The findings followed Australia’s warmest and driest year on record.

“Our findings are not a projection of what we may see in the future. Its happening right now,” the Australia Institute’s Richie Merzian said.

“Summers have grown longer even in recent years, with the last five years facing summers twice as long as their winters,” Mr Merzian said.

“Temperatures which were considered a regular three-month summer in the 1950s, now span from early to mid-November all the way to mid-March.”

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-51697803

dv said:

buffy said:

dv said:

Is it though?

Didn’t you see the headlines last month? The scientists say it is.

I don’t really follow the news.

How can they tell the difference between summer getting longer and things generally getting warmer?

Summer is defined as the period of time between December and February. This year, summer was a day longer as it is a leap year. In the northern hemisphere, their winter was a day longer.

We can only describe summer as being hotter (or drier or whatever), but claiming that it is longer is not correct. The days either side of summer fall into Autumn or Spring, so those seasons should be described differently, if need be.

PermeateFree said:

Australia’s summers have become twice as long as its winters amid increasing temperatures driven by climate change, according to new weather data analysis.

The Australia Institute found that summer across most of the country over the past 20 years was about a month longer than in the mid-20th century, while winters had become shorter.

Between 2014 and 2018, summers were found to be about 50% longer.

The findings followed Australia’s warmest and driest year on record.

“Our findings are not a projection of what we may see in the future. Its happening right now,” the Australia Institute’s Richie Merzian said.

“Summers have grown longer even in recent years, with the last five years facing summers twice as long as their winters,” Mr Merzian said.

“Temperatures which were considered a regular three-month summer in the 1950s, now span from early to mid-November all the way to mid-March.”

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-51697803

Now go looking for a link about how market gardeners are coping with the changes.

Speedy said:

dv said:

buffy said:

Didn’t you see the headlines last month? The scientists say it is.

I don’t really follow the news.

How can they tell the difference between summer getting longer and things generally getting warmer?

Summer is defined as the period of time between December and February. This year, summer was a day longer as it is a leap year. In the northern hemisphere, their winter was a day longer.

We can only describe summer as being hotter (or drier or whatever), but claiming that it is longer is not correct. The days either side of summer fall into Autumn or Spring, so those seasons should be described differently, if need be.

Only if you restrict yourself to the traditional northern hemisphere seasons.

roughbarked said:

Speedy said:

dv said:

I don’t really follow the news.

How can they tell the difference between summer getting longer and things generally getting warmer?

Summer is defined as the period of time between December and February. This year, summer was a day longer as it is a leap year. In the northern hemisphere, their winter was a day longer.

We can only describe summer as being hotter (or drier or whatever), but claiming that it is longer is not correct. The days either side of summer fall into Autumn or Spring, so those seasons should be described differently, if need be.

Only if you restrict yourself to the traditional northern hemisphere seasons.

that’s what we use. of course if you want to go with the aboriginal system them we don’t have a “summer”.

ChrispenEvan said:

roughbarked said:

Speedy said:

Summer is defined as the period of time between December and February. This year, summer was a day longer as it is a leap year. In the northern hemisphere, their winter was a day longer.

We can only describe summer as being hotter (or drier or whatever), but claiming that it is longer is not correct. The days either side of summer fall into Autumn or Spring, so those seasons should be described differently, if need be.

Only if you restrict yourself to the traditional northern hemisphere seasons.

that’s what we use. of course if you want to go with the aboriginal system them we don’t have a “summer”.

true.

roughbarked said:

ChrispenEvan said:

roughbarked said:

Only if you restrict yourself to the traditional northern hemisphere seasons.

that’s what we use. of course if you want to go with the aboriginal system them we don’t have a “summer”.

true.

False

mollwollfumble said:

roughbarked said:

ChrispenEvan said:

that’s what we use. of course if you want to go with the aboriginal system them we don’t have a “summer”.

true.

False

summer = yirabang (http://www.wiradjuri.dalang.com.au/plugin_wiki/wordlist)

Speedy said:

dv said:

buffy said:

Didn’t you see the headlines last month? The scientists say it is.

I don’t really follow the news.

How can they tell the difference between summer getting longer and things generally getting warmer?

Summer is defined as the period of time between December and February. This year, summer was a day longer as it is a leap year. In the northern hemisphere, their winter was a day longer.

We can only describe summer as being hotter (or drier or whatever), but claiming that it is longer is not correct. The days either side of summer fall into Autumn or Spring, so those seasons should be described differently, if need be.

alrighty then

dv said:

Speedy said:

dv said:

I don’t really follow the news.

How can they tell the difference between summer getting longer and things generally getting warmer?

Summer is defined as the period of time between December and February. This year, summer was a day longer as it is a leap year. In the northern hemisphere, their winter was a day longer.

We can only describe summer as being hotter (or drier or whatever), but claiming that it is longer is not correct. The days either side of summer fall into Autumn or Spring, so those seasons should be described differently, if need be.

alrighty then

That’s one definition of summer.

Obviously it isn’t the definition that applies when you are talking about a growing season.

The Rev Dodgson said:

dv said:

Speedy said:

Summer is defined as the period of time between December and February. This year, summer was a day longer as it is a leap year. In the northern hemisphere, their winter was a day longer.

We can only describe summer as being hotter (or drier or whatever), but claiming that it is longer is not correct. The days either side of summer fall into Autumn or Spring, so those seasons should be described differently, if need be.

alrighty then

That’s one definition of summer.

Obviously it isn’t the definition that applies when you are talking about a growing season.

what’s the official definition

SCIENCE said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

dv said:

alrighty then

That’s one definition of summer.

Obviously it isn’t the definition that applies when you are talking about a growing season.

what’s the official definition

Depends what the context is.

The Rev Dodgson said:

SCIENCE said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

That’s one definition of summer.

Obviously it isn’t the definition that applies when you are talking about a growing season.

what’s the official definition

Depends what the context is.

so we take it there’s no BIPM or similar for summer

SCIENCE said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

SCIENCE said:

what’s the official definition

Depends what the context is.

so we take it there’s no BIPM or similar for summer

British Institute of Proper Meanings?

The Rev Dodgson said:

SCIENCE said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Depends what the context is.

so we take it there’s no BIPM or similar for summer

British Institute of Proper Meanings?

OK, I binged it.

Gwarsh goofus.
Plants have seasons.
Let’s see, in the case of radishes, anything changes in the first week then the radish may be as hot as chilli or floury before the fourth.