The wisdom of Heinlein. Part 1.

Comments please.

mollwollfumble said:

The wisdom of Heinlein. Part 1.

Comments please.

I’ve loved them since first reading this book many moons ago.

As an aside I also very occasionally used the handle Lazarus Long on SSSF.

Oh, and this may make it easier to read for some:

http://www.angelfire.com/or/sociologyshop/lazlong.html

mollwollfumble said:

The wisdom of Heinlein. Part 1.

Comments please.

tits and bums.

mollwollfumble said:

The wisdom of Heinlein. Part 1.

Comments please.

Americans talk too much.

It’s a bit pedestrian

dv said:

It’s a bit pedestrian

But amusing in parts.

mollwollfumble said:

The wisdom of Heinlein. Part 1.

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Comments please.

Heinlein was a rwnj who stole ideas and quotes from others (eg Heinrich Heine, H. L. Mencken, and Friedrich Nietzsche.)

mollwollfumble said:

The wisdom of Heinlein. Part 1.

Comments please.

It reads a bit like TN post.. some salient points and a lot of gobbledegook… wrapped in some musings and dipped in the side of weird.

btm said:

mollwollfumble said:

The wisdom of Heinlein. Part 1.

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Comments please.

Heinlein was a rwnj who stole ideas and quotes from others (eg Heinrich Heine, H. L. Mencken, and Friedrich Nietzsche.)

Sibeen also likes Tucker Carlson.

btm said:

mollwollfumble said:

The wisdom of Heinlein. Part 1.

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Comments please.

Heinlein was a rwnj who stole ideas and quotes from others (eg Heinrich Heine, H. L. Mencken, and Friedrich Nietzsche.)

I only read a bit of his stuff in my infancy, and it was rather space-cadetty. He had a reputation for being very right-wing, as you say.

btm said:

mollwollfumble said:

The wisdom of Heinlein. Part 1.

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Comments please.

Heinlein was a rwnj who stole ideas and quotes from others (eg Heinrich Heine, H. L. Mencken, and Friedrich Nietzsche.)

And a lot of time on his hands.

Bubblecar said:

btm said:

mollwollfumble said:

The wisdom of Heinlein. Part 1.

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Comments please.

Heinlein was a rwnj who stole ideas and quotes from others (eg Heinrich Heine, H. L. Mencken, and Friedrich Nietzsche.)

I only read a bit of his stuff in my infancy, and it was rather space-cadetty. He had a reputation for being very right-wing, as you say.

“Good artists copy. Great artists steal”, Banksy.

I’m basically OK with the wisdom verses, with the exception of Heinlein’s hatred of altruist politicians. It’s true that selfish politicians are more predictable, but predictability does not make them good.

mollwollfumble said:

Bubblecar said:

btm said:

Heinlein was a rwnj who stole ideas and quotes from others (eg Heinrich Heine, H. L. Mencken, and Friedrich Nietzsche.)

I only read a bit of his stuff in my infancy, and it was rather space-cadetty. He had a reputation for being very right-wing, as you say.

“Good artists copy. Great artists steal”, Banksy.

I’m basically OK with the wisdom verses, with the exception of Heinlein’s hatred of altruist politicians. It’s true that selfish politicians are more predictable, but predictability does not make them good.

Can’t say I’m in agreeance with the Banksy quote.
Maybe he’s a Led-Zep fan.

It’s along time since I read any Heinlein. I think I used to enjoy it, but I vaguely remember some right-wing stuff that put me off (or maybe that was someone else).

It was Spartan mothers that told their sons to return with their shield or on it , never read that Roman mothers said that.

Treat all information as hostile unless proven otherwise

Those that can’t do – teach

Those that can’t teach – manage

wookiemeister said:

Those that can’t do – teach

Those that can’t teach – manage

Those that can’t do – teach

Those that can’t teach – teach PE.

wookiemeister said:

It was Spartan mothers that told their sons to return with their shield or on it , never read that Roman mothers said that.

Treat all information as hostile unless proven otherwise

This is one of many reasons why Spartan Hegemony lasted only 33 years. They had a lot of dumb ideas.

sarahs mum said:

wookiemeister said:

Those that can’t do – teach

Those that can’t teach – manage

Those that can’t do – teach

Those that can’t teach – teach PE.

Those who can’t teach – umpire…

furious said:

sarahs mum said:

wookiemeister said:

Those that can’t do – teach

Those that can’t teach – manage

Those that can’t do – teach

Those that can’t teach – teach PE.

Those who can’t teach – umpire…

I’ve always hated the ‘Those that can’t do – teach” line. It’s absolute bullshit and always has been.

furious said:

sarahs mum said:

wookiemeister said:

Those that can’t do – teach

Those that can’t teach – manage

Those that can’t do – teach

Those that can’t teach – teach PE.

Those who can’t teach – umpire…

Those that can’t umpire – yell at their TVs.

sibeen said:

furious said:

sarahs mum said:

Those that can’t do – teach

Those that can’t teach – teach PE.

Those who can’t teach – umpire…

I’ve always hated the ‘Those that can’t do – teach” line. It’s absolute bullshit and always has been.

Yep. I totally agree.

sibeen said:

furious said:

sarahs mum said:

Those that can’t do – teach

Those that can’t teach – teach PE.

Those who can’t teach – umpire…

I’ve always hated the ‘Those that can’t do – teach” line. It’s absolute bullshit and always has been.

Aye, those that can’t think beyond shitty platitudes don’t realise that teaching is itself a form of “doing”, of a particularly challenging kind.

Michael V said:

sibeen said:

furious said:

Those who can’t teach – umpire…

I’ve always hated the ‘Those that can’t do – teach” line. It’s absolute bullshit and always has been.

Yep. I totally agree.

also, though how else do you explain the decline of education in Australia over the past few decades

Bubblecar said:

sibeen said:

furious said:

Those who can’t teach – umpire…

I’ve always hated the ‘Those that can’t do – teach” line. It’s absolute bullshit and always has been.

Aye, those that can’t think beyond shitty platitudes don’t realise that teaching is itself a form of “doing”, of a particularly challenging kind.

Plenty of people who never made it in their chosen profession turn out to be good teachers. Dont assume the “those who can’t “ thing is an insult…

SCIENCE said:

Michael V said:

sibeen said:

I’ve always hated the ‘Those that can’t do – teach” line. It’s absolute bullshit and always has been.

Yep. I totally agree.

also, though how else do you explain the decline of education in Australia over the past few decades

First: reference.

Second: how do you explain the large uptake by non-Australian students, of university education her?

furious said:

Bubblecar said:

sibeen said:

I’ve always hated the ‘Those that can’t do – teach” line. It’s absolute bullshit and always has been.

Aye, those that can’t think beyond shitty platitudes don’t realise that teaching is itself a form of “doing”, of a particularly challenging kind.

Plenty of people who never made it in their chosen profession turn out to be good teachers. Dont assume the “those who can’t “ thing is an insult…

I really don’t understand what you mean, sorry. Could you expand?

Bubblecar said:

sibeen said:

furious said:

Those who can’t teach – umpire…

I’ve always hated the ‘Those that can’t do – teach” line. It’s absolute bullshit and always has been.

Aye, those that can’t think beyond shitty platitudes don’t realise that teaching is itself a form of “doing”, of a particularly challenging kind.

I was forced into teaching by the Australian Army when I was 27 years old and did it for about two years. It taught me how to be confident around people and how to interact with them. I also wasn’t too bad at the gig, although very young and inexperienced. That two years has stood me very well over the years in my professional life and I really do try to pay it back by mentoring junior engineers when I have the chance.

Two or three weeks ago I had the opportunity to catch up with one of those engineers. A late twenties female who has moved up in the world and now has her own junior engineer to boss around. She introduced me to him and then stated “he’s my engineering dad”. I nearly burst with pride but kept an absolute straight face. I have a few of those sprinkled around a few companies and it’s probably the best thing I’ve done in my engineering career.

Michael V said:

SCIENCE said:

Michael V said:

Yep. I totally agree.

also, though how else do you explain the decline of education in Australia over the past few decades

First: reference.

Second: how do you explain the large uptake by non-Australian students, of university education her?

sorry, to be specific, primary and secondary education

example
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-03/australia-education-results-maths-reading-science-getting-worse/11760880
http://theconversation.com/six-ways-australias-education-system-is-failing-our-kids-32958

as a country we do sell our tertiary education quite hard (as a big export), and as SCIENCE we do accept that it does not come under our unqualified statement that education declined

Michael V said:

furious said:

Bubblecar said:

Aye, those that can’t think beyond shitty platitudes don’t realise that teaching is itself a form of “doing”, of a particularly challenging kind.

Plenty of people who never made it in their chosen profession turn out to be good teachers. Dont assume the “those who can’t “ thing is an insult…

I really don’t understand what you mean, sorry. Could you expand?

A simple example is with sports, in the world there are plenty of sports coaches who didnt succeed, or even play, in top flight sports leagues but they teach/coach players that do…

Michael V said:

SCIENCE said:

Michael V said:

Yep. I totally agree.

also, though how else do you explain the decline of education in Australia over the past few decades

First: reference.

Second: how do you explain the large uptake by non-Australian students, of university education her?

Exactly, MV. I think it’s now Oz’s second or third best performing export style market. We must be shit at it. Also having three Unis in the top 50 of the Times top Unis, for a country of our size that’s rather impressive.

sibeen said:

Bubblecar said:

sibeen said:

I’ve always hated the ‘Those that can’t do – teach” line. It’s absolute bullshit and always has been.

Aye, those that can’t think beyond shitty platitudes don’t realise that teaching is itself a form of “doing”, of a particularly challenging kind.

I was forced into teaching by the Australian Army when I was 27 years old and did it for about two years. It taught me how to be confident around people and how to interact with them. I also wasn’t too bad at the gig, although very young and inexperienced. That two years has stood me very well over the years in my professional life and I really do try to pay it back by mentoring junior engineers when I have the chance.

Two or three weeks ago I had the opportunity to catch up with one of those engineers. A late twenties female who has moved up in the world and now has her own junior engineer to boss around. She introduced me to him and then stated “he’s my engineering dad”. I nearly burst with pride but kept an absolute straight face. I have a few of those sprinkled around a few companies and it’s probably the best thing I’ve done in my engineering career.

Some absolute whizzes notwithstanding, of course…

sibeen said:

Bubblecar said:

sibeen said:

I’ve always hated the ‘Those that can’t do – teach” line. It’s absolute bullshit and always has been.

Aye, those that can’t think beyond shitty platitudes don’t realise that teaching is itself a form of “doing”, of a particularly challenging kind.

I was forced into teaching by the Australian Army when I was 27 years old and did it for about two years. It taught me how to be confident around people and how to interact with them. I also wasn’t too bad at the gig, although very young and inexperienced. That two years has stood me very well over the years in my professional life and I really do try to pay it back by mentoring junior engineers when I have the chance.

Two or three weeks ago I had the opportunity to catch up with one of those engineers. A late twenties female who has moved up in the world and now has her own junior engineer to boss around. She introduced me to him and then stated “he’s my engineering dad”. I nearly burst with pride but kept an absolute straight face. I have a few of those sprinkled around a few companies and it’s probably the best thing I’ve done in my engineering career.

:)

I know that feeling. From teaching at universities.

furious said:

Bubblecar said:

sibeen said:

I’ve always hated the ‘Those that can’t do – teach” line. It’s absolute bullshit and always has been.

Aye, those that can’t think beyond shitty platitudes don’t realise that teaching is itself a form of “doing”, of a particularly challenging kind.

Plenty of people who never made it in their chosen profession turn out to be good teachers. Dont assume the “those who can’t “ thing is an insult…

They were probably the ones that got promoted to the level of their incompetence.

SCIENCE said:

Michael V said:

SCIENCE said:

also, though how else do you explain the decline of education in Australia over the past few decades

First: reference.

Second: how do you explain the large uptake by non-Australian students, of university education her?

sorry, to be specific, primary and secondary education

example
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-03/australia-education-results-maths-reading-science-getting-worse/11760880
http://theconversation.com/six-ways-australias-education-system-is-failing-our-kids-32958

as a country we do sell our tertiary education quite hard (as a big export), and as SCIENCE we do accept that it does not come under our unqualified statement that education declined

Good-oh.

I realise we could do better. Everybody can.

dv said:

wookiemeister said:

It was Spartan mothers that told their sons to return with their shield or on it , never read that Roman mothers said that.

Treat all information as hostile unless proven otherwise

This is one of many reasons why Spartan Hegemony lasted only 33 years. They had a lot of dumb ideas.

Did I mention the institutionalised homosexuality where they got to work on 7 year old boys?

Love is love – right ??

Small change may often be found under seat cushions.

—

I’ve used that strategy when things were very tight… but through reading Heinlein

Michael V said:

sibeen said:

Bubblecar said:

Aye, those that can’t think beyond shitty platitudes don’t realise that teaching is itself a form of “doing”, of a particularly challenging kind.

I was forced into teaching by the Australian Army when I was 27 years old and did it for about two years. It taught me how to be confident around people and how to interact with them. I also wasn’t too bad at the gig, although very young and inexperienced. That two years has stood me very well over the years in my professional life and I really do try to pay it back by mentoring junior engineers when I have the chance.

Two or three weeks ago I had the opportunity to catch up with one of those engineers. A late twenties female who has moved up in the world and now has her own junior engineer to boss around. She introduced me to him and then stated “he’s my engineering dad”. I nearly burst with pride but kept an absolute straight face. I have a few of those sprinkled around a few companies and it’s probably the best thing I’ve done in my engineering career.

:)

I know that feeling. From teaching at universities.

“Forced into teaching” and “choosing teaching” are not the same thing…

furious said:

Michael V said:

furious said:

Plenty of people who never made it in their chosen profession turn out to be good teachers. Dont assume the “those who can’t “ thing is an insult…

I really don’t understand what you mean, sorry. Could you expand?

A simple example is with sports, in the world there are plenty of sports coaches who didnt succeed, or even play, in top flight sports leagues but they teach/coach players that do…

Fair enough. But those coaches were driven, understood the principles, but for whatever reason (maybe there muscles were anchored just 1 mm from optimum) couldn’t make it.

sibeen said:

Michael V said:

SCIENCE said:

also, though how else do you explain the decline of education in Australia over the past few decades

First: reference.

Second: how do you explain the large uptake by non-Australian students, of university education her?

Exactly, MV. I think it’s now Oz’s second or third best performing export style market. We must be shit at it. Also having three Unis in the top 50 of the Times top Unis, for a country of our size that’s rather impressive.

Yes.

Michael V said:

SCIENCE said:

Michael V said:

First: reference.

Second: how do you explain the large uptake by non-Australian students, of university education her?

sorry, to be specific, primary and secondary education

example
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-03/australia-education-results-maths-reading-science-getting-worse/11760880
http://theconversation.com/six-ways-australias-education-system-is-failing-our-kids-32958

as a country we do sell our tertiary education quite hard (as a big export), and as SCIENCE we do accept that it does not come under our unqualified statement that education declined

Good-oh.

I realise we could do better. Everybody can.

yes, were just wondering how the line applied to primary and secondary education (we teach SCIENCE to such students), because even with the recent events there does seem to be that feeling of disrespect, whether it’s the teachers’ own perceptions or actually real — when they come right out and tell us they feel like cheap childcare

example
https://www.watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/showing-kids-handwashing-won-t-fix-problems-wa-teachers-sound-alarm-20200317-p54b3w.html

anyway there doesn’t seem to be much disrespect for our service so we’re not complaining right now

Woodie said:

furious said:

Bubblecar said:

Aye, those that can’t think beyond shitty platitudes don’t realise that teaching is itself a form of “doing”, of a particularly challenging kind.

Plenty of people who never made it in their chosen profession turn out to be good teachers. Dont assume the “those who can’t “ thing is an insult…

They were probably the ones that got promoted to the level of their incompetence.

Oh, the “Peter Principle”.

wookiemeister said:

dv said:

wookiemeister said:

It was Spartan mothers that told their sons to return with their shield or on it , never read that Roman mothers said that.

Treat all information as hostile unless proven otherwise

This is one of many reasons why Spartan Hegemony lasted only 33 years. They had a lot of dumb ideas.

Did I mention the institutionalised homosexuality where they got to work on 7 year old boys?

Love is love – right ??

Fuck right off.

Michael V said:

furious said:

Michael V said:

I really don’t understand what you mean, sorry. Could you expand?

A simple example is with sports, in the world there are plenty of sports coaches who didnt succeed, or even play, in top flight sports leagues but they teach/coach players that do…

Fair enough. But those coaches were driven, understood the principles, but for whatever reason (maybe there muscles were anchored just 1 mm from optimum) couldn’t make it.

Yeah, they know their stuff. But “Do”? Not so much…

SCIENCE said:

Michael V said:

SCIENCE said:

sorry, to be specific, primary and secondary education

example
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-03/australia-education-results-maths-reading-science-getting-worse/11760880
http://theconversation.com/six-ways-australias-education-system-is-failing-our-kids-32958

as a country we do sell our tertiary education quite hard (as a big export), and as SCIENCE we do accept that it does not come under our unqualified statement that education declined

Good-oh.

I realise we could do better. Everybody can.

yes, were just wondering how the line applied to primary and secondary education (we teach SCIENCE to such students), because even with the recent events there does seem to be that feeling of disrespect, whether it’s the teachers’ own perceptions or actually real — when they come right out and tell us they feel like cheap childcare

example
https://www.watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/showing-kids-handwashing-won-t-fix-problems-wa-teachers-sound-alarm-20200317-p54b3w.html

anyway there doesn’t seem to be much disrespect for our service so we’re not complaining right now

Oh don’t get me wrong. I respect teachers (primary, secondary) for what they do. I was a product of two of them I married another. I couldn’t do it, despite many people suggesting I’d be a good teacher. Also, the top end of the system is a bit shit.

Michael V said:

wookiemeister said:

dv said:

This is one of many reasons why Spartan Hegemony lasted only 33 years. They had a lot of dumb ideas.

Did I mention the institutionalised homosexuality where they got to work on 7 year old boys?

Love is love – right ??

Fuck right off.

Sorry. I should’ve said “Go away, your seriously homophobic sentiments are not appreciated”.

furious said:

Michael V said:

furious said:

A simple example is with sports, in the world there are plenty of sports coaches who didnt succeed, or even play, in top flight sports leagues but they teach/coach players that do…

Fair enough. But those coaches were driven, understood the principles, but for whatever reason (maybe there muscles were anchored just 1 mm from optimum) couldn’t make it.

Yeah, they know their stuff. But “Do”? Not so much…

Well they “did” as well as they could.

• Oh don’t get me wrong. I respect teachers (primary, secondary) for what they do. I was a product of two of them I married another. I couldn’t do it, despite many people suggesting I’d be a good teacher. Also, the top end of the system is a bit shit.

So, basically, you were good enough at your chosen profession that you didn’t have to teach?

• Oh don’t get me wrong. I respect teachers (primary, secondary) for what they do. I was a product of two of them I married another. I couldn’t do it, despite many people suggesting I’d be a good teacher. Also, the top end of the system is a bit shit.

So, basically, you were good enough at your chosen profession that you didn’t have to teach?

furious said:

• Oh don’t get me wrong. I respect teachers (primary, secondary) for what they do. I was a product of two of them I married another. I couldn’t do it, despite many people suggesting I’d be a good teacher. Also, the top end of the system is a bit shit.

So, basically, you were good enough at your chosen profession that you didn’t have to teach?

I thoroughly enjoyed teaching geology and paleopalynology.

Michael V said:

furious said:

• Oh don’t get me wrong. I respect teachers (primary, secondary) for what they do. I was a product of two of them I married another. I couldn’t do it, despite many people suggesting I’d be a good teacher. Also, the top end of the system is a bit shit.

So, basically, you were good enough at your chosen profession that you didn’t have to teach?

I thoroughly enjoyed teaching geology and paleopalynology.

Let’s be frank, you only enjoyed teaching the latter because you could bring it up at parties and people would be WTF and you’d get all the chicks.

Michael V said:

furious said:

• Oh don’t get me wrong. I respect teachers (primary, secondary) for what they do. I was a product of two of them I married another. I couldn’t do it, despite many people suggesting I’d be a good teacher. Also, the top end of the system is a bit shit.

So, basically, you were good enough at your chosen profession that you didn’t have to teach?

I thoroughly enjoyed teaching geology and paleopalynology.

So, you were a full time teacher for how long?

sibeen said:

Michael V said:

furious said:

• Oh don’t get me wrong. I respect teachers (primary, secondary) for what they do. I was a product of two of them I married another. I couldn’t do it, despite many people suggesting I’d be a good teacher. Also, the top end of the system is a bit shit.

So, basically, you were good enough at your chosen profession that you didn’t have to teach?

I thoroughly enjoyed teaching geology and paleopalynology.

Let’s be frank, you only enjoyed teaching the latter because you could bring it up at parties and people would be WTF and you’d get all the chicks.

LOL.

No, I loved university teaching.

Them palaeopalyntologists get so much tang

furious said:

Michael V said:

furious said:

• Oh don’t get me wrong. I respect teachers (primary, secondary) for what they do. I was a product of two of them I married another. I couldn’t do it, despite many people suggesting I’d be a good teacher. Also, the top end of the system is a bit shit.

So, basically, you were good enough at your chosen profession that you didn’t have to teach?

I thoroughly enjoyed teaching geology and paleopalynology.

So, you were a full time teacher for how long?

Part-time. For 5 years.

dv said:

Them palaeopalyntologists get so much tang

LOL.

Nup (well, maybe a little bit).

Michael V said:

sibeen said:

Michael V said:

I thoroughly enjoyed teaching geology and paleopalynology.

Let’s be frank, you only enjoyed teaching the latter because you could bring it up at parties and people would be WTF and you’d get all the chicks.

LOL.

No, I loved university teaching.

I enjoyed teaching electronics in the Army until I became the ‘expert’ on one newly introduced bit of gear. Teaching exactly the same course six times in a row and I was jaded to the max.

Michael V said:

furious said:

Michael V said:

Fair enough. But those coaches were driven, understood the principles, but for whatever reason (maybe there muscles were anchored just 1 mm from optimum) couldn’t make it.

Yeah, they know their stuff. But “Do”? Not so much…

Well they “did” as well as they could.

Probably the point is more that even if “those who can’t do, teach”, it should still be the case that “those who can do, also teach”. It’s too late for us to think up the fallacy or whatever it’s called (either-or perhaps? The Rev Dodgson can enjoy sorting this out for us), but fact is, best operators can do both.

SCIENCE said:

Michael V said:

furious said:

Yeah, they know their stuff. But “Do”? Not so much…

Well they “did” as well as they could.

Probably the point is more that even if “those who can’t do, teach”, it should still be the case that “those who can do, also teach”. It’s too late for us to think up the fallacy or whatever it’s called (either-or perhaps? The Rev Dodgson can enjoy sorting this out for us), but fact is, best operators can do both.

Yep.

furious said:

sarahs mum said:

wookiemeister said:

Those that can’t do – teach

Those that can’t teach – manage

Those that can’t do – teach

Those that can’t teach – teach PE.

Those who can’t teach – umpire…

Good Scientist cartoon has, I think, a whole sequence of those. With each step down the ladder earning more money.

Can’t remember off hand, something like this.

Those who can, do.
Those who can’t, teach.
Those who can’t teach, administrate – I said this once in front of the head of a Uni Department – Oops.
Those who can’t administrate, legislate.
Those who can’t legislate, go into politics.

One point is that those who have been good at their trade, but for some reason are unable to carry it out, should teach it.

Not much to add.

I’m on the sibeen/mv side of the fence.

I do think that a version of the Peter Principle is a real problem though.

It’s not that promotion needs ever higher levels of skill in whatever individuals specialise in, the problem is that “promotion” almost always means moving to a higher level of management, which requires different skills, so by promoting based on performance at a particular job, you remove the people who are best at the job and leave the people who would have made the best managers.

Never heard of him.

Peak Warming Man said:

Never heard of him.

Good on you! :-)

He’s that chap from Mythbusters, I think.

Peak Warming Man said:

Never heard of him.

I think he was a sort of 20th Century Sam Pepys.

Could be wrong though.

The Rev Dodgson said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Never heard of him.

I think he was a sort of 20th Century Sam Pepys.

Could be wrong though.

Possibly this one
Robert Anson Heinlein was an American science-fiction author, aeronautical engineer, and retired Naval officer. Sometimes called the “dean of science fiction writers”, he was among the first to emphasize scientific accuracy in his fiction, and was thus a pioneer of the subgenre of hard science fiction.

Oh good a chat about teachers. I really really liked teaching. I like the students, I liked their sass mouths, their dreams, the fact that they still thought they would change the world and believed it, that gave them drive. I liked their forthrightness, their honesty and their don’t give a shitness. What made teaching a terrible profession to be in was the system (both the private and public system), the parents, the bosses and the other teachers.

Arts said:

Oh good a chat about teachers. I really really liked teaching. I like the students, I liked their sass mouths, their dreams, the fact that they still thought they would change the world and believed it, that gave them drive. I liked their forthrightness, their honesty and their don’t give a shitness. What made teaching a terrible profession to be in was the system (both the private and public system), the parents, the bosses and the other teachers.

and the pay?

Arts said:

Oh good a chat about teachers. I really really liked teaching. I like the students, I liked their sass mouths, their dreams, the fact that they still thought they would change the world and believed it, that gave them drive. I liked their forthrightness, their honesty and their don’t give a shitness. What made teaching a terrible profession to be in was the system (both the private and public system), the parents, the bosses and the other teachers.

Teens or little’uns?

Arts said:

Oh good a chat about teachers. I really really liked teaching. I like the students, I liked their sass mouths, their dreams, the fact that they still thought they would change the world and believed it, that gave them drive. I liked their forthrightness, their honesty and their don’t give a shitness. What made teaching a terrible profession to be in was the system (both the private and public system), the parents, the bosses and the other teachers.

One of my friends said the worst bullying was in the staffroom.

Witty Rejoinder said:

Arts said:

Oh good a chat about teachers. I really really liked teaching. I like the students, I liked their sass mouths, their dreams, the fact that they still thought they would change the world and believed it, that gave them drive. I liked their forthrightness, their honesty and their don’t give a shitness. What made teaching a terrible profession to be in was the system (both the private and public system), the parents, the bosses and the other teachers.

Teens or little’uns?

teens… they are brilliant.

the pay was ok. I mean I did a LOT of unpaid work, but that was my choice. I also did Arty subjects so it meant a decent amount of prep and planning for excursions etc.

sarahs mum said:

Arts said:

Oh good a chat about teachers. I really really liked teaching. I like the students, I liked their sass mouths, their dreams, the fact that they still thought they would change the world and believed it, that gave them drive. I liked their forthrightness, their honesty and their don’t give a shitness. What made teaching a terrible profession to be in was the system (both the private and public system), the parents, the bosses and the other teachers.

One of my friends said the worst bullying was in the staffroom.

A lot of that went on. There Are three types of teachers, those who really enjoy doing it, those who are doing it because they didn’t get into what they really wanted to do (so are bitter) and those who are doing it because high school was the best time of their lives and they never want to leave (ie. can’t cope with being an adult)

Arts said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

Arts said:

Oh good a chat about teachers. I really really liked teaching. I like the students, I liked their sass mouths, their dreams, the fact that they still thought they would change the world and believed it, that gave them drive. I liked their forthrightness, their honesty and their don’t give a shitness. What made teaching a terrible profession to be in was the system (both the private and public system), the parents, the bosses and the other teachers.

Teens or little’uns?

teens… they are brilliant.

the pay was ok. I mean I did a LOT of unpaid work, but that was my choice. I also did Arty subjects so it meant a decent amount of prep and planning for excursions etc.

Yes. Having had a mother and a wife who taught, I am aware of all the hours and own expenses that go into it.
A lot of people who aren’t teachers have told me they believe that teachers deserve to be paid better because of the important role they play.
However, many blame the teachers for a range of things that are all false.

Arts said:

sarahs mum said:

Arts said:

Oh good a chat about teachers. I really really liked teaching. I like the students, I liked their sass mouths, their dreams, the fact that they still thought they would change the world and believed it, that gave them drive. I liked their forthrightness, their honesty and their don’t give a shitness. What made teaching a terrible profession to be in was the system (both the private and public system), the parents, the bosses and the other teachers.

One of my friends said the worst bullying was in the staffroom.

A lot of that went on. There Are three types of teachers, those who really enjoy doing it, those who are doing it because they didn’t get into what they really wanted to do (so are bitter) and those who are doing it because high school was the best time of their lives and they never want to leave (ie. can’t cope with being an adult)

Same in most workplaces. The bullying thing.

Arts said:

sarahs mum said:

Arts said:

Oh good a chat about teachers. I really really liked teaching. I like the students, I liked their sass mouths, their dreams, the fact that they still thought they would change the world and believed it, that gave them drive. I liked their forthrightness, their honesty and their don’t give a shitness. What made teaching a terrible profession to be in was the system (both the private and public system), the parents, the bosses and the other teachers.

One of my friends said the worst bullying was in the staffroom.

A lot of that went on. There Are three types of teachers, those who really enjoy doing it, those who are doing it because they didn’t get into what they really wanted to do (so are bitter) and those who are doing it because high school was the best time of their lives and they never want to leave (ie. can’t cope with being an adult)

I remember asking my maths teacher why she was a teacher (she obviously could have done so many other things).

She said it was for those moments when a student grasped a concept or method, and the flash of understanding crossed his/her face, the ‘ah!’ moment.

She said that was a real reward.

captain_spalding said:

Arts said:

sarahs mum said:

One of my friends said the worst bullying was in the staffroom.

A lot of that went on. There Are three types of teachers, those who really enjoy doing it, those who are doing it because they didn’t get into what they really wanted to do (so are bitter) and those who are doing it because high school was the best time of their lives and they never want to leave (ie. can’t cope with being an adult)

I remember asking my maths teacher why she was a teacher (she obviously could have done so many other things).

She said it was for those moments when a student grasped a concept or method, and the flash of understanding crossed his/her face, the ‘ah!’ moment.

She said that was a real reward.

I loved that. It was quite amazing.

sibeen said:

Oh, and this may make it easier to read for some:

http://www.angelfire.com/or/sociologyshop/lazlong.html

TY :)
it helped a great deal

Michael V said:

captain_spalding said:

Arts said:

A lot of that went on. There Are three types of teachers, those who really enjoy doing it, those who are doing it because they didn’t get into what they really wanted to do (so are bitter) and those who are doing it because high school was the best time of their lives and they never want to leave (ie. can’t cope with being an adult)

I remember asking my maths teacher why she was a teacher (she obviously could have done so many other things).

She said it was for those moments when a student grasped a concept or method, and the flash of understanding crossed his/her face, the ‘ah!’ moment.

She said that was a real reward.

I loved that. It was quite amazing.

I had a few of those nice teaching moments.. but the one I remember the most was when I was the school MSB officer (Managing Student Behaviour) – I used to have a 15 yr old girl who was always in my office.. always. And she used to tell me about how much she hated her mum, who was always busy, mean, yelling etc etc . I had very little counselling training (just enough so the school could put me in that role) and really had no solutions for her. One day she was in tears and bitching about her mum .. once she calmed down I asked her when the last time she gave or got a hug from her mum..

a few days later her mum walked into my office and, in tears, thanked me for saying that. Apparently daughter went home and when her mum started yelling at her the daughter went up and hugged her and they both ended up actually communicating about their stresses and needs and wants from each other.

I appreciate that much more now as the parent of a 14 yr old than I ever did then., but it was nice to be thanked in a role that you usually got yelled at in (by students and parents alike).

Arts said:

Michael V said:

captain_spalding said:

I remember asking my maths teacher why she was a teacher (she obviously could have done so many other things).

She said it was for those moments when a student grasped a concept or method, and the flash of understanding crossed his/her face, the ‘ah!’ moment.

She said that was a real reward.

I loved that. It was quite amazing.

I had a few of those nice teaching moments.. but the one I remember the most was when I was the school MSB officer (Managing Student Behaviour) – I used to have a 15 yr old girl who was always in my office.. always. And she used to tell me about how much she hated her mum, who was always busy, mean, yelling etc etc . I had very little counselling training (just enough so the school could put me in that role) and really had no solutions for her. One day she was in tears and bitching about her mum .. once she calmed down I asked her when the last time she gave or got a hug from her mum..

a few days later her mum walked into my office and, in tears, thanked me for saying that. Apparently daughter went home and when her mum started yelling at her the daughter went up and hugged her and they both ended up actually communicating about their stresses and needs and wants from each other.

I appreciate that much more now as the parent of a 14 yr old than I ever did then., but it was nice to be thanked in a role that you usually got yelled at in (by students and parents alike).

Nice one. Well done you.

:)

The wisdom of Heinlein. Part 2. All-new.

I hope nobody agrees with his claim “Killing a pacifist should not be defined as murder in a legalistic sense”.

Look, sometimes you need to kill a 100 to educate a 1000, for the greater good you see.
Now if in China they had eaten pacifists on a stick instead of bats we’d all be better off but the communists in China have gone soft.

mollwollfumble said:

The wisdom of Heinlein. Part 2. All-new.

I hope nobody agrees with his claim “Killing a pacifist should not be defined as murder in a legalistic sense”.

It does rather seem to be contradicted by the one that says “all is fair in love and war” is a contemptible lie.

“Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny.”

Attn: Scummo

I haven’t read all of them, but I hope he included:

All absolute binary statements are wrong.

The Rev Dodgson said:

I haven’t read all of them, but I hope he included:

All absolute binary statements are wrong.

No, but he does say that age doesn’t bring wisdom.

PS. “All absolute binary statements are wrong”, being an absolute binary statement, is self-referential and therefore wrong?

mollwollfumble said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

I haven’t read all of them, but I hope he included:

All absolute binary statements are wrong.

No, but he does say that age doesn’t bring wisdom.

PS. “All absolute binary statements are wrong”, being an absolute binary statement, is self-referential and therefore wrong?

Yes, that’s why it should be on his list.

(You could make it most absolute binary statements are wrong, but that would be boring).

Michael V said:

wookiemeister said:

dv said:

This is one of many reasons why Spartan Hegemony lasted only 33 years. They had a lot of dumb ideas.

Did I mention the institutionalised homosexuality where they got to work on 7 year old boys?

Love is love – right ??

Fuck right off.

its all the awful truth

love is love – well that’s what the slogan says

thats the whole thing with these things , its the inconvenient things that fall through the cracks

wookiemeister said:

Michael V said:

wookiemeister said:

Did I mention the institutionalised homosexuality where they got to work on 7 year old boys?

Love is love – right ??

Fuck right off.

its all the awful truth

love is love – well that’s what the slogan says

thats the whole thing with these things , its the inconvenient things that fall through the cracks

What is love?
Baby don’t hurt me
Don’t hurt me
No more