For a bit of variety, I was reading about this today – abstract:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4683124

“On being sane in insane places”

Full original paper here:

https://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1126/science.179.4070.250

It seems some people are now questioning if this really happened:

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-03268-y

And wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenhan_experiment

buffy said:

For a bit of variety, I was reading about this today – abstract:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4683124

“On being sane in insane places”

Full original paper here:

https://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1126/science.179.4070.250

It seems some people are now questioning if this really happened:

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-03268-y

And wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenhan_experiment

Now who wants to admit they were diagnosed incorrectly?

PermeateFree said:

buffy said:

For a bit of variety, I was reading about this today – abstract:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4683124

“On being sane in insane places”

Full original paper here:

https://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1126/science.179.4070.250

It seems some people are now questioning if this really happened:

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-03268-y

And wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenhan_experiment

Now who wants to admit they were diagnosed incorrectly?

Hannibal Lecter

I was never diagnosed, the one that got away…

“accelerated the movement to reform mental institutions and to deinstitutionalize as many mental patients as possible”.

Fun fact: deinstitutionalisation was a disaster and led to a situation where hundreds of thousands of mentally ill people were homeless, which is still the case in the US today!

dv said:

“accelerated the movement to reform mental institutions and to deinstitutionalize as many mental patients as possible”.

Fun fact: deinstitutionalisation was a disaster and led to a situation where hundreds of thousands of mentally ill people were homeless, which is still the case in the US today!

has this also been something of a problem in Australia ¿

SCIENCE said:

dv said:

“accelerated the movement to reform mental institutions and to deinstitutionalize as many mental patients as possible”.

Fun fact: deinstitutionalisation was a disaster and led to a situation where hundreds of thousands of mentally ill people were homeless, which is still the case in the US today!

has this also been something of a problem in Australia ¿

There’s been some deinst in Aust but to my knowledge it has largely been done in cases where the patient has a stable place of care to go to, with reinst available if that fails.

dv said:

SCIENCE said:

dv said:

“accelerated the movement to reform mental institutions and to deinstitutionalize as many mental patients as possible”.

Fun fact: deinstitutionalisation was a disaster and led to a situation where hundreds of thousands of mentally ill people were homeless, which is still the case in the US today!

has this also been something of a problem in Australia ¿

There’s been some deinst in Aust but to my knowledge it has largely been done in cases where the patient has a stable place of care to go to, with reinst available if that fails.

>>Most of Australia’s asylums were closed by the 1990s, though the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare reports there are still 1,831 acute and sub-acute beds operating in specialist psychiatric hospitals (as opposed to general hospitals), costing more than half a billion dollars annually.<<

Dr Fauci is going to do a follow-up report on being sane in insane places

dv said:

Dr Fauci is going to do a follow-up report on being sane in insane places

Ha!

PermeateFree said:

>>Most of Australia’s asylums were closed by the 1990s, though the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare reports there are still 1,831 acute and sub-acute beds operating in specialist psychiatric hospitals (as opposed to general hospitals), costing more than half a billion dollars annually.<<

We have some of those beds in a hospital here.

There are some people on that ward who you most definitely do not want ‘returned to the community’.

Most definitely.

captain_spalding said:

PermeateFree said:

>>Most of Australia’s asylums were closed by the 1990s, though the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare reports there are still 1,831 acute and sub-acute beds operating in specialist psychiatric hospitals (as opposed to general hospitals), costing more than half a billion dollars annually.<<

We have some of those beds in a hospital here.

There are some people on that ward who you most definitely do not want ‘returned to the community’.

Most definitely.

Aye.

The most important thing is that the state has to accept responsibility, even in cases where the patient is cared for at home. They’ve done a pretty good job over the last 20 years of getting the balance right.

Of course there are still people who slip through the cracks. Of Australia’s 8000 or so “rough sleeping” homeless, around half have mental health problems.

dv said:

captain_spalding said:

PermeateFree said:

>>Most of Australia’s asylums were closed by the 1990s, though the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare reports there are still 1,831 acute and sub-acute beds operating in specialist psychiatric hospitals (as opposed to general hospitals), costing more than half a billion dollars annually.<<

We have some of those beds in a hospital here.

There are some people on that ward who you most definitely do not want ‘returned to the community’.

Most definitely.

Aye.

The most important thing is that the state has to accept responsibility, even in cases where the patient is cared for at home. They’ve done a pretty good job over the last 20 years of getting the balance right.

Of course there are still people who slip through the cracks. Of Australia’s 8000 or so “rough sleeping” homeless, around half have mental health problems.

Well, half of the people with psychology degrees got them to try to sort out their own problems.

dv said:

captain_spalding said:

PermeateFree said:

>>Most of Australia’s asylums were closed by the 1990s, though the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare reports there are still 1,831 acute and sub-acute beds operating in specialist psychiatric hospitals (as opposed to general hospitals), costing more than half a billion dollars annually.<<

We have some of those beds in a hospital here.

There are some people on that ward who you most definitely do not want ‘returned to the community’.

Most definitely.

Aye.

The most important thing is that the state has to accept responsibility, even in cases where the patient is cared for at home. They’ve done a pretty good job over the last 20 years of getting the balance right.

Of course there are still people who slip through the cracks. Of Australia’s 8000 or so “rough sleeping” homeless, around half have mental health problems.

Large numbers in prison too.

captain_spalding said:

dv said:

captain_spalding said:

We have some of those beds in a hospital here.

There are some people on that ward who you most definitely do not want ‘returned to the community’.

Most definitely.

Aye.

The most important thing is that the state has to accept responsibility, even in cases where the patient is cared for at home. They’ve done a pretty good job over the last 20 years of getting the balance right.

Of course there are still people who slip through the cracks. Of Australia’s 8000 or so “rough sleeping” homeless, around half have mental health problems.

Well, half of the people with psychology degrees got them to try to sort out their own problems.

COINCIDENCE???

dv said:

captain_spalding said:

dv said:

Aye.

The most important thing is that the state has to accept responsibility, even in cases where the patient is cared for at home. They’ve done a pretty good job over the last 20 years of getting the balance right.

Of course there are still people who slip through the cracks. Of Australia’s 8000 or so “rough sleeping” homeless, around half have mental health problems.

Well, half of the people with psychology degrees got them to try to sort out their own problems.

COINCIDENCE???

A lot of them don’t even know the emotion table.

Tau.Neutrino said:

dv said:

captain_spalding said:

Well, half of the people with psychology degrees got them to try to sort out their own problems.

COINCIDENCE???

A lot of them don’t even know the emotion table.

How stupid of them.

It’s just over there under the window, next to the nature table.

buffy said:

For a bit of variety, I was reading about this today – abstract:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4683124

“On being sane in insane places”

Full original paper here:

https://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1126/science.179.4070.250

It seems some people are now questioning if this really happened:

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-03268-y

And wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenhan_experiment

“The Rosenhan experiment or Thud experiment was conducted to determine the validity of psychiatric diagnosis. The experimenters feigned hallucinations to enter psychiatric hospitals, and acted normally afterwards. They were diagnosed with psychiatric disorders and were given antipsychotic drugs”.

> It seems some people are now questioning if this really happened:

Oh, that makes sense. An experiment like that may never have happened. The conclusions seem counter-intuitive. And they certainly don’t agree with my time in a psychiatric hospital. I had a real psychiatric problem and was prescribed no drugs of any kind while in the hospital even though I could have benefited from some. I’ve also observed then and since that when the medicine trolley is wheeled around one of those places, the patients descend on it like a flock of vultures, ie. they need more than they’re being prescribed.

Let’s look at the original paper. Single author, therefore much more prone to personal bias than multiple authors.

“Eight sane people gained secret admission to 12 different hospitals”, the reference quoted is reference 6. Reference 6 (and 8, 9, 10, 11 for that matter) is not a reference but a footnote saying that there were 9 people.

“The 12 hospitals in the sample were located in five different states on the East and West coasts.”
That’s a bit extreme, don’t you think. It makes the incidents impossible to track.

Pseudopatient “complaining that he had been hearing voices. Asked what the voices said, he replied that they were often unclear”.

“Immediately upon admission to the psychiatric ward, the pseudopatient ceased simulating any symptoms of abnormality. … Each was told that he would have to get out by his own devices, essentially by convincing the staff that he was sane.”

Well, duh, psychotic patients usually do, too. The more psychotic, the harder they work at covering it up. Many are committed there involuntarily, and pretend to be normal to get out as soon as possible. I’ve known a psychopathic axe murderer to convince all the psychiatrists that he met and psychiatric staff that he was completely sane – just a few weeks before the murder.

Enough of the original paper. Now for the recent article in Nature.

> it was several weeks before some of the pseudopatients got discharged.

Two weeks is the standard length of time in a psychiatric hospital. They can’t just discharge patients straight after admitting them, no matter how sane they seem, until they’ve had time to stabilise.

> They included the first 200 pages of Rosenhan’s unfinished draft of a book about the experiment.

Hardly worth that much attention, given only 8 people were involved, including the author. Megalomania? Anyway, that would make it easy to track down, only it didn’t.

> her sleuthing brought her to only one participant, a former Stanford graduate student called Bill Underwood.

Hmm. Only 2 patients found, not 9. And what is said about them is wildly inaccurate.

Surely there were follow up studies. Without independent corroboration – every experiment is worthless. What of them?

PS, although my admission to a psychiatric hospital nicknamed “the Hilton” was very frightening at first, it actually turned out to be one of the best fortnights of my life. I learnt a lot.