if the work of minds tended to displace nature, what would eventuate from that?

transition said:

if the work of minds tended to displace nature, what would eventuate from that?

They have largely done so already and the world is in a horrific mess.

Mind Is Nature

PermeateFree said:

They have largely done so already and the world is in a horrific mess.

I thank my lucky stars every day that I haven’t had to live through World War 3. The destruction of nature by World War 3 would by far exceed any destruction we have now.

> if the work of minds tended to displace nature, what would eventuate from that?

How many different ways are there of looking at this question? As a question of psychology is one way. The feedback loops generated by the human mind (eg. iphones) replacing and distorting the input from the senses until we all disappear up our solipsist fundamental orifices. Or to put it another way, we’re so far up Maslow’s hierarchy of needs that we’ve lost track of our interaction with nature at the most fundamental level.

> Mind is part of nature

A second way of looking at this question is that the mind is part of nature, and all we see now is an inevitable result of overpopulation, with the slow rising of efficiency (eg. shrinking of technology, higher crop yields, reduction in water pollution) allowing nature to claw back some of its own ground. The end result once overpopulation ends could be a happy balance. Don’t scoff, it’s perfectly possible. Because humans are part of nature, overpopulation by any other species would be just as bad.

A third way of looking at it is to take the dystopian limit of all nature disappearing. It’s clear that it wouldn’t affect human survival. For example, in the whole of the area controlled by Melbourne City Council there is not even one square metre of land that hasn’t been enormously disturbed by human occupation. But that doesn’t make it impossible for humans to live there. Nor does it stop humans from improving on nature by for example, upgrading garden plants to make them more beautiful. But all nature is valuable by itself, not just as a marketable commodity.

A fourth way of looking at this question is to take the opposite tack. In the war of man vs nature it is far from clear who the eventual winner will be. Malaria is still rampant. Cats and dogs are taking over our cities. One good plague could wipe out half our food crops. Because humans are so genetically homogeneous, any disease from nature that can take advantage of that will have a chance of wiping out the whole human population.

So, taking the four ways of thinking together, the answer to transition’s question could go any way. To the enslavement of humanity by technology. To the destruction of humanity by nature. To the loss of all nature without human catastrophe. Or to a “best of all worlds” balance between humanity and nature.

Our lives would be much less than they are without the kiss of the mosquito and the ralling of the matchbox of the sweet pretty creature or the carolling of the magpie.

roughbarked said:

Our lives would be much less than they are without the kiss of the mosquito and the ralling of the matchbox of the sweet pretty creature or the carolling of the magpie.

duh, rattling.

SCIENCE said:

Mind Is Nature

+1

Science and technology didn’t ruin nature, humans did
We could have been a lot more responsible from the onset of the industrial revolution, some pollution and damage would have been inevitable, but most seems to be from who cares lets dump it somewhere out of sight.

what of the phenomena, i’ll call it that, in which case the work of minds, the representations in the structure of minds, of the external world (for the moment) tend to displace, by way of their force from proximity and immediacy, some important realities of the external world

now, most conscious creatures bump into the business that the work of minds, representations aren’t the actual things external they represent, it probably starts quite young, possibly before five years old, most toddlers probably have it

a person could be forgiven for assuming that as people mature, and there are more mature people, adults, with adult ideas, that groups of people get better at distinguishing external realities from the work of minds, but there maybe cause to question this, reasons to question if the force of culture results in an (overall) improvement in the quality of distinctions, or possibility of, the potential

consider for a moment (i’ll go straight to the work of ego now, here) the possibility that humans are reaching a peak of confusion between between I and we, that I has become so amplified it nestles its work, presents itself and projects as we (a collective work), to maintain respectability. Further, conjure for a moment the possibility this confusion is related a more fundamental confusion from the work of minds essentially displacing nature. A thought experiment, to see where it goes, what it may yield

quite clearly minds generate an internal environment, and do work to adjust the external environment/s they inhabit

off the bat that has interesting challenges, or is an interesting proposition, just considered in the abstract, and of conscious creatures it possibly has an extra dimension

transition said:

what of the phenomena, i’ll call it that, in which case the work of minds, the representations in the structure of minds, of the external world (for the moment) tend to displace, by way of their force from proximity and immediacy, some important realities of the external world

now, most conscious creatures bump into the business that the work of minds, representations aren’t the actual things external they represent, it probably starts quite young, possibly before five years old, most toddlers probably have it

a person could be forgiven for assuming that as people mature, and there are more mature people, adults, with adult ideas, that groups of people get better at distinguishing external realities from the work of minds, but there maybe cause to question this, reasons to question if the force of culture results in an (overall) improvement in the quality of distinctions, or possibility of, the potential

consider for a moment (i’ll go straight to the work of ego now, here) the possibility that humans are reaching a peak of confusion between between I and we, that I has become so amplified it nestles its work, presents itself and projects as we (a collective work), to maintain respectability. Further, conjure for a moment the possibility this confusion is related a more fundamental confusion from the work of minds essentially displacing nature. A thought experiment, to see where it goes, what it may yield

quite clearly minds generate an internal environment, and do work to adjust the external environment/s they inhabit

off the bat that has interesting challenges, or is an interesting proposition, just considered in the abstract, and of conscious creatures it possibly has an extra dimension

> what of the phenomena, i’ll call it that, in which case the work of minds, the representations in the structure of minds, of the external world (for the moment) tend to displace, by way of their force from proximity and immediacy, some important realities of the external world

Ah, that was my interpretation number one. I suspected that transition might be talking about psychology.

As an example of how internal reality replaces external reality, I can give the example where the “s” key symbol has completely worn off the keyboard, but I can still see it because my internal reality replaces external reality.

> there maybe cause to question this

Yes. Persistence of memory for starters.

> humans are reaching a peak of confusion between between I and we

For example white dudes calling themselves black?

I’ll bet that Stan Grant and many others would take a small amount of umbrage.
“Who are you calling a white dude man?”

> a person could be forgiven for assuming that as people mature, and there are more mature people, adults, with adult ideas, that groups of people get better at distinguishing external realities from the work of minds

On thinking further, adults are the worst, unable to cope with changes in external realities over time. Information, true or false, gets hardwired in the brain and once hardwired is devilishly difficult to change.

For example:

• It took me six months to reconcile myself to a new supermarket layout.
• Mrs m and I still go shopping at “Safeway”, despite Safeway being rebranded as Woolworths twelve years ago.
• Richard Attenborough in his latest documentaries still gives temperatures in Centigrade rather than Celsius.
• I still give some distances, such as my height, in feet and inches despite metrication in 1970.
• I still think the premiers of Vic, NSW, Qld and SA are Jeff Kennett, Neville Wran, Joh Bjelke-Petersen and Don Dunstan.

mollwollfumble said:

> a person could be forgiven for assuming that as people mature, and there are more mature people, adults, with adult ideas, that groups of people get better at distinguishing external realities from the work of minds

On thinking further, adults are the worst, unable to cope with changes in external realities over time. Information, true or false, gets hardwired in the brain and once hardwired is devilishly difficult to change.

For example:

• It took me six months to reconcile myself to a new supermarket layout.
• Mrs m and I still go shopping at “Safeway”, despite Safeway being rebranded as Woolworths twelve years ago.
• Richard Attenborough in his latest documentaries still gives temperatures in Centigrade rather than Celsius.
• I still give some distances, such as my height, in feet and inches despite metrication in 1970.
• I still think the premiers of Vic, NSW, Qld and SA are Jeff Kennett, Neville Wran, Joh Bjelke-Petersen and Don Dunstan.
  

In the UK, “Centigrade” is still the commonly used word, although the BBC started using “Celsius” in 1985.

I suspect that humanity is headed for inner space, not outer space. The human imagination coupled with tomorrow’s computer/AI/VR technology will be able to create all kinds of universes that are much richer and more human-friendly than the external world in which we find ourselves. This may be the destiny of all intelligent life.

Bubblecar said:

I suspect that humanity is headed for inner space, not outer space. The human imagination coupled with tomorrow’s computer/AI/VR technology will be able to create all kinds of universes that are much richer and more human-friendly than the external world in which we find ourselves. This may be the destiny of all intelligent life.

It could explain lack of signals from other stars besides the various other reasons

Bubblecar said:

I suspect that humanity is headed for inner space, not outer space. The human imagination coupled with tomorrow’s computer/AI/VR technology will be able to create all kinds of universes that are much richer and more human-friendly than the external world in which we find ourselves. This may be the destiny of all intelligent life.

Problem is that while our minds are in inner space our all too fragile bodies are in all too physical space.

Bubblecar said:

I suspect that humanity is headed for inner space, not outer space. The human imagination coupled with tomorrow’s computer/AI/VR technology will be able to create all kinds of universes that are much richer and more human-friendly than the external world in which we find ourselves. This may be the destiny of all intelligent life.

I have a theory on that.

Tamb said:

Bubblecar said:

I suspect that humanity is headed for inner space, not outer space. The human imagination coupled with tomorrow’s computer/AI/VR technology will be able to create all kinds of universes that are much richer and more human-friendly than the external world in which we find ourselves. This may be the destiny of all intelligent life.

Problem is that while our minds are in inner space our all too fragile bodies are in all too physical space.

Presumably people of the future will ditch the bodies altogether, when they know how :)

Bubblecar said:

Tamb said:

Bubblecar said:

I suspect that humanity is headed for inner space, not outer space. The human imagination coupled with tomorrow’s computer/AI/VR technology will be able to create all kinds of universes that are much richer and more human-friendly than the external world in which we find ourselves. This may be the destiny of all intelligent life.

Problem is that while our minds are in inner space our all too fragile bodies are in all too physical space.

Presumably people of the future will ditch the bodies altogether, when they know how :)

Then they won’t be people, but something else.

buffy said:

Bubblecar said:

Tamb said:

Problem is that while our minds are in inner space our all too fragile bodies are in all too physical space.

Presumably people of the future will ditch the bodies altogether, when they know how :)

Then they won’t be people, but something else.

Aye.

Bubblecar said:

buffy said:

Bubblecar said:

Presumably people of the future will ditch the bodies altogether, when they know how :)

Then they won’t be people, but something else.

Aye.

Reproduction will be very different as well.

Let’s just see if we can survive 2020

Tamb said:

Bubblecar said:

buffy said:

Then they won’t be people, but something else.

Aye.

Reproduction will be very different as well.

The Australian author Greg Egan has written some fascinating stories following these lines.

Dolphins Are People Too so perhaps the words you are looking for are Homo sapiens or humans.

Bubblecar said:

I suspect that humanity is headed for inner space, not outer space. The human imagination coupled with tomorrow’s computer/AI/VR technology will be able to create all kinds of universes that are much richer and more human-friendly than the external world in which we find ourselves. This may be the destiny of all intelligent life.

If by inner space you mean the oceans, then I reckon even that is far off. Easier thing would be to settle desert landscapes. Desalinate sea water using solar energy and pump freshwater inland into deserts. The deserts might even be the solar collecting areas, with the energy generated there being sent out to the coast to power the desal plants and pumps.

maybe they mean inner space like hollow earth theoretical space or perhaps even inner product spaces

party_pants said:

Bubblecar said:

I suspect that humanity is headed for inner space, not outer space. The human imagination coupled with tomorrow’s computer/AI/VR technology will be able to create all kinds of universes that are much richer and more human-friendly than the external world in which we find ourselves. This may be the destiny of all intelligent life.

If by inner space you mean the oceans, then I reckon even that is far off. Easier thing would be to settle desert landscapes. Desalinate sea water using solar energy and pump freshwater inland into deserts. The deserts might even be the solar collecting areas, with the energy generated there being sent out to the coast to power the desal plants and pumps.

By inner space, I believe that he means online/virtual connection with the imagination, or some such. However, with settling desert areas and making them fit for human habitation you are just going displace the critters that are already there and there would be more extinctions on our heads…

SCIENCE said:

maybe they mean inner space like hollow earth theoretical space or perhaps even inner product spaces

Or maybe inner spaces like where I shine my UV lights to ward off covid.

By inner space I mean virtual worlds created by enhanced imagination and stored and explored in machines, which would presumably be maintained and serviced by robots and would require a tiny fraction of the resources used by organic humans.

dv said:

SCIENCE said:

maybe they mean inner space like hollow earth theoretical space or perhaps even inner product spaces

Or maybe inner spaces like where I shine my UV lights to ward off covid.

There’s no earthly way of knowing
What was in your heart
When it stopped going
The whole world shook
A cold was blowing through you

Waiting for God to stop this
And up to your neck in darkness
Everyone around you was corrupted
Tweeting something

There’s no dignity in death
For twenty bucks – your last breath
We’re still fighting over
Everything you left

We’ve seen the riots over race
Since George Perry Floyd passed away
You had that mask upon your face
Inner product space
No one learned from our mistakes
We let our profits go to waste
All that’s left in any case
Is inner product space

This whole year the world was burning
Thoughts and prayers are all you’re earning
You seemed to say as you kept fking up
They poisoned you with chloroquine
On Twitter all you’d do was whine
Everybody hates your life but you

A clockwork orange of a man
Obamagate but dodged Vietnam
No one really gave a damn
Did you think the CIA did

We’ve seen the riots over race
Since George Perry Floyd passed away
You had that mask upon your face
Inner product space
No one learned from our mistakes
We let our profits go to waste
All that’s left in any case
Is inner product space

Cymek said:

Bubblecar said:

I suspect that humanity is headed for inner space, not outer space. The human imagination coupled with tomorrow’s computer/AI/VR technology will be able to create all kinds of universes that are much richer and more human-friendly than the external world in which we find ourselves. This may be the destiny of all intelligent life.

It could explain lack of signals from other stars besides the various other reasons

They’re all sucking on a bong.

on a related subject, of media, television and all, including the internet (i’ll get to that later), if most people aren’t really into it, say they don’t want to be on TV, not ever, I mean never ever, and these same people are very reticent television viewers, and let’s say most people most of the time don’t watch TV, aren’t that interested, that there’s some overlap (related motivation, or reasons) that both disinclines wanting to be on TV and low levels or rates of viewer indulgence of the delivery system (news it’s called) then what devices might those in media employ to encourage ‘participation’

transition said:

on a related subject, of media, television and all, including the internet (i’ll get to that later), if most people aren’t really into it, say they don’t want to be on TV, not ever, I mean never ever, and these same people are very reticent television viewers, and let’s say most people most of the time don’t watch TV, aren’t that interested, that there’s some overlap (related motivation, or reasons) that both disinclines wanting to be on TV and low levels or rates of viewer indulgence of the delivery system (news it’s called) then what devices might those in media employ to encourage ‘participation’

I’ve been on the local TV news a few times. Gotta say it does give me a good feeling.

transition said:

on a related subject, of media, television and all, including the internet (i’ll get to that later), if most people aren’t really into it, say they don’t want to be on TV, not ever, I mean never ever, and these same people are very reticent television viewers, and let’s say most people most of the time don’t watch TV, aren’t that interested, that there’s some overlap (related motivation, or reasons) that both disinclines wanting to be on TV and low levels or rates of viewer indulgence of the delivery system (news it’s called) then what devices might those in media employ to encourage ‘participation’

I’ve been on TV despite never wanting to be seen, ever.

roughbarked said:

transition said:

on a related subject, of media, television and all, including the internet (i’ll get to that later), if most people aren’t really into it, say they don’t want to be on TV, not ever, I mean never ever, and these same people are very reticent television viewers, and let’s say most people most of the time don’t watch TV, aren’t that interested, that there’s some overlap (related motivation, or reasons) that both disinclines wanting to be on TV and low levels or rates of viewer indulgence of the delivery system (news it’s called) then what devices might those in media employ to encourage ‘participation’

I’ve been on TV despite never wanting to be seen, ever.

I was only on TV when there was that business with the missing diamonds and the hostages (all of whom, i hasten to add, were released unharmed). And nothing could ever be proven against me re the diamonds, so no libellous remarks about that, please.

captain_spalding said:

roughbarked said:

transition said:

on a related subject, of media, television and all, including the internet (i’ll get to that later), if most people aren’t really into it, say they don’t want to be on TV, not ever, I mean never ever, and these same people are very reticent television viewers, and let’s say most people most of the time don’t watch TV, aren’t that interested, that there’s some overlap (related motivation, or reasons) that both disinclines wanting to be on TV and low levels or rates of viewer indulgence of the delivery system (news it’s called) then what devices might those in media employ to encourage ‘participation’

I’ve been on TV despite never wanting to be seen, ever.

I was only on TV when there was that business with the missing diamonds and the hostages (all of whom, i hasten to add, were released unharmed). And nothing could ever be proven against me re the diamonds, so no libellous remarks about that, please.

Which missing diamonds and hostages?

Michael V said:

captain_spalding said:

roughbarked said:

I’ve been on TV despite never wanting to be seen, ever.

I was only on TV when there was that business with the missing diamonds and the hostages (all of whom, i hasten to add, were released unharmed). And nothing could ever be proven against me re the diamonds, so no libellous remarks about that, please.

Which missing diamonds and hostages?

Oh…um…never mind, forget what i said.

captain_spalding said:

Michael V said:

captain_spalding said:

I was only on TV when there was that business with the missing diamonds and the hostages (all of whom, i hasten to add, were released unharmed). And nothing could ever be proven against me re the diamonds, so no libellous remarks about that, please.

Which missing diamonds and hostages?

Oh…um…never mind, forget what i said.

Be careful. They are quick to accuse. Did you know I’m an internet drug dealer?

roughbarked said:

captain_spalding said:

Michael V said:

Which missing diamonds and hostages?

Oh…um…never mind, forget what i said.

Be careful. They are quick to accuse. Did you know I’m an internet drug dealer?

Do you have a catalogue?

captain_spalding said:

Michael V said:

captain_spalding said:

I was only on TV when there was that business with the missing diamonds and the hostages (all of whom, i hasten to add, were released unharmed). And nothing could ever be proven against me re the diamonds, so no libellous remarks about that, please.

Which missing diamonds and hostages?

Oh…um…never mind, forget what i said.

captain_spalding a.k.a Mr Pink…

roughbarked said:

captain_spalding said:

Michael V said:

Which missing diamonds and hostages?

Oh…um…never mind, forget what i said.

Be careful. They are quick to accuse. Did you know I’m an internet drug dealer?

Some say the internet is a drug, yes.

captain_spalding said:

roughbarked said:

captain_spalding said:

Oh…um…never mind, forget what i said.

Be careful. They are quick to accuse. Did you know I’m an internet drug dealer?

Do you have a catalogue?

Of woven weed baskets? Why yes.

Tamb said:

roughbarked said:

captain_spalding said:

Oh…um…never mind, forget what i said.

Be careful. They are quick to accuse. Did you know I’m an internet drug dealer?

Some say the internet is a drug, yes.

If it be a substance that alters reality, then this be a certainty.

roughbarked said:

Tamb said:

roughbarked said:

Be careful. They are quick to accuse. Did you know I’m an internet drug dealer?

Some say the internet is a drug, yes.

If it be a substance that alters reality, then this be a certainty.

If perchance reality actually = your current state.

furious said:

captain_spalding said:

Michael V said:

Which missing diamonds and hostages?

Oh…um…never mind, forget what i said.

captain_spalding a.k.a Mr Pink…

I used to know a Mr Pink. He was a very gentle and thoughtful man.

Michael V said:

furious said:

captain_spalding said:

Oh…um…never mind, forget what i said.

captain_spalding a.k.a Mr Pink…

I used to know a Mr Pink. He was a very gentle and thoughtful man.

Lily’s dad?

Michael V said:

furious said:

captain_spalding said:

Oh…um…never mind, forget what i said.

captain_spalding a.k.a Mr Pink…

I used to know a Mr Pink. He was a very gentle and thoughtful man.

Does he tip?

furious said:

Michael V said:

furious said:

captain_spalding a.k.a Mr Pink…

I used to know a Mr Pink. He was a very gentle and thoughtful man.

Does he tip?

Mr Pink from Reservoir Dogs ?

Cymek said:

furious said:

Michael V said:

I used to know a Mr Pink. He was a very gentle and thoughtful man.

Does he tip?

Mr Pink from Reservoir Dogs ?

Correct…

PermeateFree said:

Michael V said:

furious said:

captain_spalding a.k.a Mr Pink…

I used to know a Mr Pink. He was a very gentle and thoughtful man.

Lily’s dad?

:) P. McArtney’s brother did that.

Michael V said:

furious said:

captain_spalding said:

Oh…um…never mind, forget what i said.

captain_spalding a.k.a Mr Pink…

I used to know a Mr Pink. He was a very gentle and thoughtful man.

His missus, Lilly, was the saviour of the human race.

furious said:

Michael V said:

furious said:

captain_spalding a.k.a Mr Pink…

I used to know a Mr Pink. He was a very gentle and thoughtful man.

Does he tip?

Only when drunk.

where was going with that last post, is there seems a lot of people making their own reality TV shows now, both acting in and filming themselves, it’s going to be a long series I believe, a very long series

transition said:

where was going with that last post, is there seems a lot of people making their own reality TV shows now, both acting in and filming themselves, it’s going to be a long series I believe, a very long series

Indeed.

a certain leader of some country seems to be in the reality TV business, I reckon as a social influence he’s probably more of a problem that way than any other way

transition said:

a certain leader of some country seems to be in the reality TV business, I reckon as a social influence he’s probably more of a problem that way than any other way

Odd phrase, ‘reality TV’.

Never seen any of it that actually resembled reality in any way, shape, or form.

captain_spalding said:

transition said:

a certain leader of some country seems to be in the reality TV business, I reckon as a social influence he’s probably more of a problem that way than any other way

Odd phrase, ‘reality TV’.

Never seen any of it that actually resembled reality in any way, shape, or form.

that’s obvious enough, it’s a lovely device though to soften people up to getting (a large part of) their reality through the delivery system

captain_spalding said:

transition said:

a certain leader of some country seems to be in the reality TV business, I reckon as a social influence he’s probably more of a problem that way than any other way

Odd phrase, ‘reality TV’.

Never seen any of it that actually resembled reality in any way, shape, or form.

The people are mostly real humans.

transition said:

captain_spalding said:

transition said:

a certain leader of some country seems to be in the reality TV business, I reckon as a social influence he’s probably more of a problem that way than any other way

Odd phrase, ‘reality TV’.

Never seen any of it that actually resembled reality in any way, shape, or form.

that’s obvious enough, it’s a lovely device though to soften people up to getting (a large part of) their reality through the delivery system

There always were science documentaries.

roughbarked said:

transition said:

captain_spalding said:

Odd phrase, ‘reality TV’.

Never seen any of it that actually resembled reality in any way, shape, or form.

that’s obvious enough, it’s a lovely device though to soften people up to getting (a large part of) their reality through the delivery system

There always were science documentaries.

In fact that was my first impression of seeing TV in a room where I could be totally drawn in. Previous encounters were staring at TV’s in shop windows.
It was at school where we were tken to a special TV rom to observe a demonsttration of science on a TV screen. I recall thinking what a wonderful educational tool and on walking out of the room, thinking men will fuck this up and waste the potential.