Date: 23/06/2020 22:29:05
From: btm
ID: 1578052
Subject: Do paedophiles hear colours?

There’s a (possibly rare (1 in ~100000), but possibly relatively common (4.4 in 100, according to a 2006 Edinburgh study, (full pdf available here))) condition called synæsthesia (sometimes also spelled synesthesia) in which the subjects’ senses are “crossed”; common examples include sounds perceived as colours (so Rhapsody in Blue really is in blue), or numbers perceived as colours (“grapheme-colour synæsthesia”) or as 3-dimensional objects (“number form synæsthesia”.) There may be a genetic component, since it is known that the phenomenon has a higher incidence among first-degree relatives, but there is no consensus on the cause of the condition.

The 2003 BBC Radio Reith Lectures were given by neurologist Vilayanur S. Ramachandran; he has made a particular study of synæsthesia, and devoted the fourth of his lectures (Purple Numbers and Sharp Cheese) to the condition. Studying the brains of people with the condition in fMRIs, he found that adjacent regions of the brain, which usually interpret different sense input, overlap in synæsthetes, so when one sense is stimulated, the overlapping part also reacts. He also found — rather interestingly, I think — that people with synæsthesia involving numbers only experience the phenomenon when the numbers are written in their native language (so for example, if the subject perceives colours or sounds on seeing Arabic numerals (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc), the same numbers written in, say, Roman numerals, will still be perceived as numbers, but without the other association.) More research is being conducted, but not all researchers accept the “cross-wiring” theory (although it does —at least in part — make sense to me; an issue I have is that the two “crossed” senses should(? possibly?) be mutually crossed, so if somone sees a particular colour on hearing a particular sound or piece of music they should hear the sound/music on seeing the colour. As far as I can discover this doesn’t happen.)

Some research into the brains of convicted pædophile CSOs, conducted in the hope of finding some pronounced differences between them and “normal” brains, might have found some, but it’s disputed. This 2013 episode of ABC Radio National’s All in the Mind, on the subject of the psychology of pædophilia, featured an interview with James Cantor, Associate Professor of Psychiatry at the University of Toronto; he suggested that, in normal, healthy adults, seeing children evokes a parental or “nurturing” instinct, whereas in pædophiles — even those who don’t act on the urges — it evokes a sexual response, and that this response is because the two parts of the brain that respond to these stimuli, normally separate, are “cross-wired”, similar to the overlapping brain regions in synæsthetes referred to above. Other researchers in the same show don’t necessarily agree with Cantor, and offer their own theories.

People who are attracted to the opposite sex think that the way they feel is “natural”; people who are attracted to the same sex also feel that it’s “natural.” It’s no stretch of the imagination to suppose that pædophiles feel the same way about their attraction to children. We know that “conversion therapies,” intended to change homosexuals and bisexuals into heterosexuals, don’t work, and never have (see, for example, this 2001 letter by the then-Surgeon General of the USA,) so it seems reasonable to suppose that attempts to “cure” pædophiles are similarly doomed to failure. Notwithstanding the foregoing, this article from the 29 July 2016 edition of the Psychiatric Times, titled Pedophilia: Interventions That Work, suggests that there are interventions that — while not changing the pædophile’s sexual orientation — can help the individual avoid (re)offending. That article also claims that the primary evidence that the interest of people with pedophilia cannot change is the statement by John Money that paraphilias are vandalized love maps that once created cannot be changed, although the author adds, So far as I know, no one has ever shown that paraphilic interests are immutable. John Money gained notoriety as the advising psychologist in the John/Joan case.

The journal article makes the point that the longer a high-risk sex offender goes without reoffending the less likely he/she is to reoffend. I should also note that the author, J. Paul Fedoroff, MD, is the director of the institution claiming to have successfully treated pædophiles, the Sexual Behaviours Clinic in Ontario, Canada.

This recent BBC radio production called “Can sex offenders and violent criminals be rehabilitated in prison?” (full transcript available here (pdf); the show itself can be listened to online or downloaded as a podcast,) looks at prison treatment programmes for sex offenders (not just CSOs, though they’re included) and violent criminals; the conclusion the presenters draw is that the programmes offered don’t work (more people reoffend after release if they’ve done the course than if they haven’t) and, in fact, can be counterproductive (a case is presented of a man convicted of multiple armed robbery charges who used the knowledge he gained in the courses to plan and execute more armed robberies after he was released.) One of the CSOs interviewed says that during the courses the participants were required to describe, in great detail, their assaults, and said that some of the pædophiles “got off” (his words) on the stories. While the programme was entirely subjective, I found it compelling.

This all seems to raise some serious questions about how we (society) should manage CSOs. If Federoff’s right, the treatment administered by the SBC works; there seems to be a very limited amount of research to support it, and that all seems to have come from the SBC itself. If it does work, though, should it ba offered to convicted pædophile CSOs as a treatment? The BBC programme indicates (actually, it baldly states) that current rehabilitation attempts have no positive outcome, and indeed have negative outcomes, so if Federoff’s treatments do work, it would seem a better option to use those. OTOH, if Cantor’s right, would it be possible to surgically or chemically “rewire” the crossed regions of the brain? Synæsthetes don’t want their condition “cured” (understandably,) so even if Ramachandran’s right there’d be no way of testing those methods with that condition. If Money’s right, and it’s untreatable and immutable, how should we treat pædophile CSOs? Our primary purpose should be to protect children and adults from sexual predation; does that imply that we should keep CSOs in prison for the rest of their life?

Reply Quote

Date: 23/06/2020 22:33:19
From: SCIENCE
ID: 1578055
Subject: re: Do paedophiles hear colours?

Just keep children and their predators separate.

Reply Quote

Date: 23/06/2020 23:18:49
From: Arts
ID: 1578071
Subject: re: Do paedophiles hear colours?

from a criminology perspective treatment might be better served in preoffending. That is, create a system where, on discovery of paedophilic orientation, help and counselling and support can be sought without stigma.

This is contentious, because by the time someone understands their orientation, social stigma is well known to the individual and seeking help may not be part of their radar of options. (and, indeed, if they do seek help are they going to be seen in a. negative way by the therapist).

Virtuous Paedophiles (Virpeds) exist (they have support networks for each other online and, I suspect, in person). But they, too, understand the social connotations of the mere fact that they identify as paedophile (offending or not) and they are naturally wary of recruitment. However, that they can and do live lives without offending, provide hope to some sort of rehabilitation from a post offending position.

Researchers are naturally wary of doing this sort of research. I have already written up a proposal and done research and made contact with a virped group. This was done in the anticipation of using this for an honours project. Two things has put this on hold.. 1. it is far too big a subject for an honours project. 2. everyone I spoke to about this in the academic world said something along the lines of “do you really want to make entry into the academic world with that research”, and none of them would agree to supervise me with this topic.
So I have put this on hold. For now.

This is why it is a problematic topic. I am not convinced that offenders can be ‘treated’, I think, without evidence, that it feels easier to offend than to address treatment ideas, especially if we extrapolate from other orientations that have been subjected to ‘treatment’ in the past or even from any addiction treatment pathway. So what do we do with offenders? I don’t know, really. Perhaps we can treat some with support and distraction elements.. Finklehor suggests that one of the motivators is a emotional congruence with children.. which suggests that any adult relationship would not suffice in any way.. so are they destined to be alone? see the levels of difficulty?

I think we would have more luck with addressing the issue pre offence. But that is also going to create some changes.

There are many issues with a paedophillic relationship, (because they truly believe the relationship is built on love – and for them it is) but perhaps the end point is that even IF we allowed a relationship to occur. Even IF it didn’t have long term negative effects on a child victim (and paedophiles believe that the negativity comes from society telling them they were wronged – that is a whole other element). Even IF it was the most conscious coupling with all the good relationship values there could be… the child is always going to grow up.. and where does that leave anyone?

So, if we can’t treat them, if we can’t provide supportive relationships with adults, or practitioners and we certainly can’t allow romantic relationships to develop the way they feel is ‘right’ what can we do?

Perhaps some sort of brain manipulation is warranted.. because we are only as content as we think ourselves to be..

Reply Quote

Date: 23/06/2020 23:33:03
From: Rule 303
ID: 1578081
Subject: re: Do paedophiles hear colours?

Arts said:


Researchers are naturally wary of doing this sort of research. I have already written up a proposal and done research and made contact with a virped group. This was done in the anticipation of using this for an honours project. Two things has put this on hold.. 1. it is far too big a subject for an honours project. 2. everyone I spoke to about this in the academic world said something along the lines of “do you really want to make entry into the academic world with that research”, and none of them would agree to supervise me with this topic.
So I have put this on hold. For now.

Is there much left to do? I had a mate who did his MA(Psych) on paedophiles in the late 80s. Field work (counseling) inna prison.

Reply Quote

Date: 23/06/2020 23:38:07
From: Arts
ID: 1578082
Subject: re: Do paedophiles hear colours?

Rule 303 said:


Arts said:

Researchers are naturally wary of doing this sort of research. I have already written up a proposal and done research and made contact with a virped group. This was done in the anticipation of using this for an honours project. Two things has put this on hold.. 1. it is far too big a subject for an honours project. 2. everyone I spoke to about this in the academic world said something along the lines of “do you really want to make entry into the academic world with that research”, and none of them would agree to supervise me with this topic.
So I have put this on hold. For now.

Is there much left to do? I had a mate who did his MA(Psych) on paedophiles in the late 80s. Field work (counseling) inna prison.

yes of course there is.

Reply Quote

Date: 24/06/2020 00:47:01
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1578102
Subject: re: Do paedophiles hear colours?

Arts said:


Rule 303 said:

Arts said:

Researchers are naturally wary of doing this sort of research. I have already written up a proposal and done research and made contact with a virped group. This was done in the anticipation of using this for an honours project. Two things has put this on hold.. 1. it is far too big a subject for an honours project. 2. everyone I spoke to about this in the academic world said something along the lines of “do you really want to make entry into the academic world with that research”, and none of them would agree to supervise me with this topic.
So I have put this on hold. For now.

Is there much left to do? I had a mate who did his MA(Psych) on paedophiles in the late 80s. Field work (counseling) inna prison.

yes of course there is.

There has been considerable effort to turn homosexuals into heterosexuals. Anyone know of a single success?

Reply Quote

Date: 24/06/2020 01:05:27
From: btm
ID: 1578105
Subject: re: Do paedophiles hear colours?

PermeateFree said:


Arts said:

Rule 303 said:

Is there much left to do? I had a mate who did his MA(Psych) on paedophiles in the late 80s. Field work (counseling) inna prison.

yes of course there is.

There has been considerable effort to turn homosexuals into heterosexuals. Anyone know of a single success?

As I said in the OP, they’ve never been successful.

Reply Quote

Date: 24/06/2020 01:15:29
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1578106
Subject: re: Do paedophiles hear colours?

btm said:


PermeateFree said:

Arts said:

yes of course there is.

There has been considerable effort to turn homosexuals into heterosexuals. Anyone know of a single success?

As I said in the OP, they’ve never been successful.

Sorry, all that closely set text in long sentences I find too difficult to read this time of night.

Reply Quote

Date: 24/06/2020 01:18:06
From: btm
ID: 1578107
Subject: re: Do paedophiles hear colours?

Thanks Arts. I think I agree with most of what you’ve said; the Ottawa clinic I mentioned has several case studies on their website, but the Psychiatric Times article says they use drugs to control their patients’ libido, including GnRH, a drug used for chemical castration. I need to think some more about it.

Reply Quote

Date: 24/06/2020 01:18:47
From: btm
ID: 1578108
Subject: re: Do paedophiles hear colours?

PermeateFree said:


btm said:

PermeateFree said:

There has been considerable effort to turn homosexuals into heterosexuals. Anyone know of a single success?

As I said in the OP, they’ve never been successful.

Sorry, all that closely set text in long sentences I find too difficult to read this time of night.

Fair enough. There is a lot there.

Reply Quote

Date: 24/06/2020 01:40:18
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1578111
Subject: re: Do paedophiles hear colours?

Arts said:


from a criminology perspective treatment might be better served in preoffending. That is, create a system where, on discovery of paedophilic orientation, help and counselling and support can be sought without stigma.

This is contentious, because by the time someone understands their orientation, social stigma is well known to the individual and seeking help may not be part of their radar of options. (and, indeed, if they do seek help are they going to be seen in a. negative way by the therapist).

Virtuous Paedophiles (Virpeds) exist (they have support networks for each other online and, I suspect, in person). But they, too, understand the social connotations of the mere fact that they identify as paedophile (offending or not) and they are naturally wary of recruitment. However, that they can and do live lives without offending, provide hope to some sort of rehabilitation from a post offending position.

Researchers are naturally wary of doing this sort of research. I have already written up a proposal and done research and made contact with a virped group. This was done in the anticipation of using this for an honours project. Two things has put this on hold.. 1. it is far too big a subject for an honours project. 2. everyone I spoke to about this in the academic world said something along the lines of “do you really want to make entry into the academic world with that research”, and none of them would agree to supervise me with this topic.
So I have put this on hold. For now.

This is why it is a problematic topic. I am not convinced that offenders can be ‘treated’, I think, without evidence, that it feels easier to offend than to address treatment ideas, especially if we extrapolate from other orientations that have been subjected to ‘treatment’ in the past or even from any addiction treatment pathway. So what do we do with offenders? I don’t know, really. Perhaps we can treat some with support and distraction elements.. Finklehor suggests that one of the motivators is a emotional congruence with children.. which suggests that any adult relationship would not suffice in any way.. so are they destined to be alone? see the levels of difficulty?

I think we would have more luck with addressing the issue pre offence. But that is also going to create some changes.

There are many issues with a paedophillic relationship, (because they truly believe the relationship is built on love – and for them it is) but perhaps the end point is that even IF we allowed a relationship to occur. Even IF it didn’t have long term negative effects on a child victim (and paedophiles believe that the negativity comes from society telling them they were wronged – that is a whole other element). Even IF it was the most conscious coupling with all the good relationship values there could be… the child is always going to grow up.. and where does that leave anyone?

So, if we can’t treat them, if we can’t provide supportive relationships with adults, or practitioners and we certainly can’t allow romantic relationships to develop the way they feel is ‘right’ what can we do?

Perhaps some sort of brain manipulation is warranted.. because we are only as content as we think ourselves to be..

I have met many women of whom I have been greatly attracted, however despite my interest I realise there are many reasons why it would be inappropriate to make advances. In other words I exercise control over my emotions. Surely this would be as much as could be expected of pedophiles, ie self-control.

Reply Quote

Date: 24/06/2020 02:14:30
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1578116
Subject: re: Do paedophiles hear colours?

I have problems with the word “paedophile”. It wraps up an incredibly varied grab bag of different proclivities and behaviours into one damning word.

Do you see the huge spectrum of variation? Or have you been conditioned to believe that there’s only one type?

Reply Quote

Date: 24/06/2020 02:16:22
From: SCIENCE
ID: 1578117
Subject: re: Do paedophiles hear colours?

PermeateFree said:


Arts said:

from a criminology perspective treatment might be better served in preoffending. That is, create a system where, on discovery of paedophilic orientation, help and counselling and support can be sought without stigma.

This is contentious, because by the time someone understands their orientation, social stigma is well known to the individual and seeking help may not be part of their radar of options. (and, indeed, if they do seek help are they going to be seen in a. negative way by the therapist).

Virtuous Paedophiles (Virpeds) exist (they have support networks for each other online and, I suspect, in person). But they, too, understand the social connotations of the mere fact that they identify as paedophile (offending or not) and they are naturally wary of recruitment. However, that they can and do live lives without offending, provide hope to some sort of rehabilitation from a post offending position.

Researchers are naturally wary of doing this sort of research. I have already written up a proposal and done research and made contact with a virped group. This was done in the anticipation of using this for an honours project. Two things has put this on hold.. 1. it is far too big a subject for an honours project. 2. everyone I spoke to about this in the academic world said something along the lines of “do you really want to make entry into the academic world with that research”, and none of them would agree to supervise me with this topic.
So I have put this on hold. For now.

This is why it is a problematic topic. I am not convinced that offenders can be ‘treated’, I think, without evidence, that it feels easier to offend than to address treatment ideas, especially if we extrapolate from other orientations that have been subjected to ‘treatment’ in the past or even from any addiction treatment pathway. So what do we do with offenders? I don’t know, really. Perhaps we can treat some with support and distraction elements.. Finklehor suggests that one of the motivators is a emotional congruence with children.. which suggests that any adult relationship would not suffice in any way.. so are they destined to be alone? see the levels of difficulty?

I think we would have more luck with addressing the issue pre offence. But that is also going to create some changes.

There are many issues with a paedophillic relationship, (because they truly believe the relationship is built on love – and for them it is) but perhaps the end point is that even IF we allowed a relationship to occur. Even IF it didn’t have long term negative effects on a child victim (and paedophiles believe that the negativity comes from society telling them they were wronged – that is a whole other element). Even IF it was the most conscious coupling with all the good relationship values there could be… the child is always going to grow up.. and where does that leave anyone?

So, if we can’t treat them, if we can’t provide supportive relationships with adults, or practitioners and we certainly can’t allow romantic relationships to develop the way they feel is ‘right’ what can we do?

Perhaps some sort of brain manipulation is warranted.. because we are only as content as we think ourselves to be..

I have met many women of whom I have been greatly attracted, however despite my interest I realise there are many reasons why it would be inappropriate to make advances. In other words I exercise control over my emotions. Surely this would be as much as could be expected of pedophiles, ie self-control.

fair

Reply Quote

Date: 24/06/2020 02:29:08
From: Arts
ID: 1578119
Subject: re: Do paedophiles hear colours?

mollwollfumble said:


I have problems with the word “paedophile”. It wraps up an incredibly varied grab bag of different proclivities and behaviours into one damning word.

Do you see the huge spectrum of variation? Or have you been conditioned to believe that there’s only one type?

The word itself is diagnostic. I mean one doesn’t get charged with being a paedophile, they are diagnosed as one under the DSM-V it is a paraphilic disorder. Offenders get charged with a sex offence, or more specifically a child sex offence. Not all cso’s are paedophiles and not all paedophiles are child sex offenders.

As for spectrum, we would have to first discuss if it is an orientation. There is evidence to suggest it is, in which case it Likely has as much ‘spectrum’ as any other orientation.

Reply Quote

Date: 24/06/2020 02:41:00
From: SCIENCE
ID: 1578120
Subject: re: Do paedophiles hear colours?

mollwollfumble said:


I have problems with the word “paedophile”. It wraps up an incredibly varied grab bag of different proclivities and behaviours into one damning word.

Do you see the huge spectrum of variation? Or have you been conditioned to believe that there’s only one type?

how problematic are words that label broadly distinct categories that nevertheless share some common ground

Reply Quote

Date: 24/06/2020 06:20:19
From: roughbarked
ID: 1578127
Subject: re: Do paedophiles hear colours?

If a paedophile does it out of feelings of love, why do they share the kiddies around or kill them?

Reply Quote

Date: 24/06/2020 08:08:06
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1578135
Subject: re: Do paedophiles hear colours?

Arts – I think I must not understand the term “orientation “ since I don’t see how paedophilia could not be one. Could you explain what it takes to make an orientation?

Reply Quote

Date: 24/06/2020 08:14:01
From: Bubblecar
ID: 1578136
Subject: re: Do paedophiles hear colours?

The Rev Dodgson said:


Arts – I think I must not understand the term “orientation “ since I don’t see how paedophilia could not be one. Could you explain what it takes to make an orientation?

Orientation as a category usually just refers to which sex a person is most sexually attracted to (but also includes asexuality).

Paedophilia is conventionally classed as a paraphilia.

Reply Quote

Date: 24/06/2020 08:19:38
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1578138
Subject: re: Do paedophiles hear colours?

Bubblecar said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

Arts – I think I must not understand the term “orientation “ since I don’t see how paedophilia could not be one. Could you explain what it takes to make an orientation?

Orientation as a category usually just refers to which sex a person is most sexually attracted to (but also includes asexuality).

Paedophilia is conventionally classed as a paraphilia.

In that case, why wouldn’t it be on a scale?

Reply Quote

Date: 24/06/2020 09:05:09
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1578159
Subject: re: Do paedophiles hear colours?

The Rev Dodgson said:


Bubblecar said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Arts – I think I must not understand the term “orientation “ since I don’t see how paedophilia could not be one. Could you explain what it takes to make an orientation?

Orientation as a category usually just refers to which sex a person is most sexually attracted to (but also includes asexuality).

Paedophilia is conventionally classed as a paraphilia.

In that case, why wouldn’t it be on a scale?

Where “scale” = “spectrum”

Reply Quote

Date: 24/06/2020 10:25:03
From: Arts
ID: 1578224
Subject: re: Do paedophiles hear colours?

The Rev Dodgson said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

Bubblecar said:

Orientation as a category usually just refers to which sex a person is most sexually attracted to (but also includes asexuality).

Paedophilia is conventionally classed as a paraphilia.

In that case, why wouldn’t it be on a scale?

Where “scale” = “spectrum”

Are there scales of orientation? Can people be a little bit homosexual? As it stands currently the idea that paedophillia is an orientation is theoretical, but I personally can see merit in this idea after talking to people who identify as such.

If you are talking about paedophilia as a paraphilic disorder (as we currently like to diagnose it) then sure it can be a scale.

The biggest issue with this topic is the emotional responses that it creates in the general public. Every time there is a child sex offender in the news the comments about pedos and the accompanying vitriol is predictable and people are very back and white in their views. And I get it, absolutely it is a harmful act for the victim, I would in no way want to minimise that. But we can’t do anything practical about this until we, as scientists, strip back the human response and study it without bias. Because, like it or not, behind the label is a human, we, as a society, need to deal with those humans.

Once more, we can not get paedophilia mixed up with violent child sex offenders whose motivations for offending are completely different.

I strongly object to the comment “is there more left to learn?” because as soon as we think there is no more left to learn and we still have offending behaviours we have done a great injustice to the victims.

Even though I had a strong response to Jeffry Epstein, and technically he was a hebephile, he used typical manipulative techniques to commit his crimes. He didn’t tie up and confine and beat the victims, he paid for them and convinced them that being with his friends was an act of gratitude and he manipulated people that he could see were vulnerable…. while there was harm it wasn’t violent beatings harm. His actions typified those within this realm of action. A distorted sexual script, intimacy/social skills deficit – including an emotional neediness, cognitive distortions, emotional dis-regulation

Reply Quote

Date: 24/06/2020 10:28:34
From: Cymek
ID: 1578226
Subject: re: Do paedophiles hear colours?

Arts said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

In that case, why wouldn’t it be on a scale?

Where “scale” = “spectrum”

Are there scales of orientation? Can people be a little bit homosexual? As it stands currently the idea that paedophillia is an orientation is theoretical, but I personally can see merit in this idea after talking to people who identify as such.

If you are talking about paedophilia as a paraphilic disorder (as we currently like to diagnose it) then sure it can be a scale.

The biggest issue with this topic is the emotional responses that it creates in the general public. Every time there is a child sex offender in the news the comments about pedos and the accompanying vitriol is predictable and people are very back and white in their views. And I get it, absolutely it is a harmful act for the victim, I would in no way want to minimise that. But we can’t do anything practical about this until we, as scientists, strip back the human response and study it without bias. Because, like it or not, behind the label is a human, we, as a society, need to deal with those humans.

Once more, we can not get paedophilia mixed up with violent child sex offenders whose motivations for offending are completely different.

I strongly object to the comment “is there more left to learn?” because as soon as we think there is no more left to learn and we still have offending behaviours we have done a great injustice to the victims.

Even though I had a strong response to Jeffry Epstein, and technically he was a hebephile, he used typical manipulative techniques to commit his crimes. He didn’t tie up and confine and beat the victims, he paid for them and convinced them that being with his friends was an act of gratitude and he manipulated people that he could see were vulnerable…. while there was harm it wasn’t violent beatings harm. His actions typified those within this realm of action. A distorted sexual script, intimacy/social skills deficit – including an emotional neediness, cognitive distortions, emotional dis-regulation

With people in position of powers is this authority part of their psychological makeup, I can so I will, when if they were perhaps someone of no note they might not even try

Reply Quote

Date: 24/06/2020 10:30:17
From: Arts
ID: 1578227
Subject: re: Do paedophiles hear colours?

Cymek said:


Arts said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Where “scale” = “spectrum”

Are there scales of orientation? Can people be a little bit homosexual? As it stands currently the idea that paedophillia is an orientation is theoretical, but I personally can see merit in this idea after talking to people who identify as such.

If you are talking about paedophilia as a paraphilic disorder (as we currently like to diagnose it) then sure it can be a scale.

The biggest issue with this topic is the emotional responses that it creates in the general public. Every time there is a child sex offender in the news the comments about pedos and the accompanying vitriol is predictable and people are very back and white in their views. And I get it, absolutely it is a harmful act for the victim, I would in no way want to minimise that. But we can’t do anything practical about this until we, as scientists, strip back the human response and study it without bias. Because, like it or not, behind the label is a human, we, as a society, need to deal with those humans.

Once more, we can not get paedophilia mixed up with violent child sex offenders whose motivations for offending are completely different.

I strongly object to the comment “is there more left to learn?” because as soon as we think there is no more left to learn and we still have offending behaviours we have done a great injustice to the victims.

Even though I had a strong response to Jeffry Epstein, and technically he was a hebephile, he used typical manipulative techniques to commit his crimes. He didn’t tie up and confine and beat the victims, he paid for them and convinced them that being with his friends was an act of gratitude and he manipulated people that he could see were vulnerable…. while there was harm it wasn’t violent beatings harm. His actions typified those within this realm of action. A distorted sexual script, intimacy/social skills deficit – including an emotional neediness, cognitive distortions, emotional dis-regulation

With people in position of powers is this authority part of their psychological makeup, I can so I will, when if they were perhaps someone of no note they might not even try

sigh.. paedophillia is not about control…

Reply Quote

Date: 24/06/2020 10:31:52
From: Cymek
ID: 1578228
Subject: re: Do paedophiles hear colours?

Arts said:


Cymek said:

Arts said:

Are there scales of orientation? Can people be a little bit homosexual? As it stands currently the idea that paedophillia is an orientation is theoretical, but I personally can see merit in this idea after talking to people who identify as such.

If you are talking about paedophilia as a paraphilic disorder (as we currently like to diagnose it) then sure it can be a scale.

The biggest issue with this topic is the emotional responses that it creates in the general public. Every time there is a child sex offender in the news the comments about pedos and the accompanying vitriol is predictable and people are very back and white in their views. And I get it, absolutely it is a harmful act for the victim, I would in no way want to minimise that. But we can’t do anything practical about this until we, as scientists, strip back the human response and study it without bias. Because, like it or not, behind the label is a human, we, as a society, need to deal with those humans.

Once more, we can not get paedophilia mixed up with violent child sex offenders whose motivations for offending are completely different.

I strongly object to the comment “is there more left to learn?” because as soon as we think there is no more left to learn and we still have offending behaviours we have done a great injustice to the victims.

Even though I had a strong response to Jeffry Epstein, and technically he was a hebephile, he used typical manipulative techniques to commit his crimes. He didn’t tie up and confine and beat the victims, he paid for them and convinced them that being with his friends was an act of gratitude and he manipulated people that he could see were vulnerable…. while there was harm it wasn’t violent beatings harm. His actions typified those within this realm of action. A distorted sexual script, intimacy/social skills deficit – including an emotional neediness, cognitive distortions, emotional dis-regulation

With people in position of powers is this authority part of their psychological makeup, I can so I will, when if they were perhaps someone of no note they might not even try

sigh.. paedophillia is not about control…

No but you have an opportunity if you are famous that you wouldn’t otherwise have

Reply Quote

Date: 24/06/2020 10:36:20
From: Arts
ID: 1578232
Subject: re: Do paedophiles hear colours?

Cymek said:


Arts said:

Cymek said:

With people in position of powers is this authority part of their psychological makeup, I can so I will, when if they were perhaps someone of no note they might not even try

sigh.. paedophillia is not about control…

No but you have an opportunity if you are famous that you wouldn’t otherwise have

I think that applies to probably all sex offences.. but we couldn’t say for sure that people like Harvey Weinstein wouldn’t have committed sex offences if he wasn’t rich and famous.. the status probably just allows you to cover it up for longer.

Reply Quote

Date: 24/06/2020 11:21:32
From: SCIENCE
ID: 1578270
Subject: re: Do paedophiles hear colours?

roughbarked said:


If a paedophile does it out of feelings of love, why do they share the kiddies around or kill them?

There’s Plenty Of Love To Go Around

Reply Quote

Date: 24/06/2020 12:19:15
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1578321
Subject: re: Do paedophiles hear colours?

Arts said:


mollwollfumble said:

I have problems with the word “paedophile”. It wraps up an incredibly varied grab bag of different proclivities and behaviours into one damning word.

Do you see the huge spectrum of variation? Or have you been conditioned to believe that there’s only one type?

The word itself is diagnostic. I mean one doesn’t get charged with being a paedophile, they are diagnosed as one under the DSM-V it is a paraphilic disorder. Offenders get charged with a sex offence, or more specifically a child sex offence. Not all cso’s are paedophiles and not all paedophiles are child sex offenders.

As for spectrum, we would have to first discuss if it is an orientation. There is evidence to suggest it is, in which case it Likely has as much ‘spectrum’ as any other orientation.

OK, so you’re saying that the law has got it wrong? That those charged with child sex offences are not always, or not not even mostly, paedophiles. And that true paedophiles as of DSM-V are mostly not guilty of child sex offences?

Reply Quote

Date: 24/06/2020 12:28:41
From: party_pants
ID: 1578326
Subject: re: Do paedophiles hear colours?

mollwollfumble said:


Arts said:

mollwollfumble said:

I have problems with the word “paedophile”. It wraps up an incredibly varied grab bag of different proclivities and behaviours into one damning word.

Do you see the huge spectrum of variation? Or have you been conditioned to believe that there’s only one type?

The word itself is diagnostic. I mean one doesn’t get charged with being a paedophile, they are diagnosed as one under the DSM-V it is a paraphilic disorder. Offenders get charged with a sex offence, or more specifically a child sex offence. Not all cso’s are paedophiles and not all paedophiles are child sex offenders.

As for spectrum, we would have to first discuss if it is an orientation. There is evidence to suggest it is, in which case it Likely has as much ‘spectrum’ as any other orientation.

OK, so you’re saying that the law has got it wrong? That those charged with child sex offences are not always, or not not even mostly, paedophiles. And that true paedophiles as of DSM-V are mostly not guilty of child sex offences?

The law can only bring people to account for their actions, not their thoughts. I might be a homicidal maniac in my heart of hearts, but as long as I don’t act on it and actually start killing people there is nothing the law can do to stop me fantasising about killing you.

Reply Quote

Date: 24/06/2020 12:35:16
From: Arts
ID: 1578331
Subject: re: Do paedophiles hear colours?

mollwollfumble said:


Arts said:

mollwollfumble said:

I have problems with the word “paedophile”. It wraps up an incredibly varied grab bag of different proclivities and behaviours into one damning word.

Do you see the huge spectrum of variation? Or have you been conditioned to believe that there’s only one type?

The word itself is diagnostic. I mean one doesn’t get charged with being a paedophile, they are diagnosed as one under the DSM-V it is a paraphilic disorder. Offenders get charged with a sex offence, or more specifically a child sex offence. Not all cso’s are paedophiles and not all paedophiles are child sex offenders.

As for spectrum, we would have to first discuss if it is an orientation. There is evidence to suggest it is, in which case it Likely has as much ‘spectrum’ as any other orientation.

OK, so you’re saying that the law has got it wrong? That those charged with child sex offences are not always, or not not even mostly, paedophiles. And that true paedophiles as of DSM-V are mostly not guilty of child sex offences?

what do you mean the law has got it wrong?

Reply Quote

Date: 24/06/2020 12:37:53
From: Arts
ID: 1578334
Subject: re: Do paedophiles hear colours?

party_pants said:


mollwollfumble said:

Arts said:

The word itself is diagnostic. I mean one doesn’t get charged with being a paedophile, they are diagnosed as one under the DSM-V it is a paraphilic disorder. Offenders get charged with a sex offence, or more specifically a child sex offence. Not all cso’s are paedophiles and not all paedophiles are child sex offenders.

As for spectrum, we would have to first discuss if it is an orientation. There is evidence to suggest it is, in which case it Likely has as much ‘spectrum’ as any other orientation.

OK, so you’re saying that the law has got it wrong? That those charged with child sex offences are not always, or not not even mostly, paedophiles. And that true paedophiles as of DSM-V are mostly not guilty of child sex offences?

The law can only bring people to account for their actions, not their thoughts. I might be a homicidal maniac in my heart of hearts, but as long as I don’t act on it and actually start killing people there is nothing the law can do to stop me fantasising about killing you.

great explanation. thanks.

Reply Quote

Date: 24/06/2020 14:56:06
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1578438
Subject: re: Do paedophiles hear colours?

party_pants said:


mollwollfumble said:

Arts said:

The word itself is diagnostic. I mean one doesn’t get charged with being a paedophile, they are diagnosed as one under the DSM-V it is a paraphilic disorder. Offenders get charged with a sex offence, or more specifically a child sex offence. Not all cso’s are paedophiles and not all paedophiles are child sex offenders.

As for spectrum, we would have to first discuss if it is an orientation. There is evidence to suggest it is, in which case it Likely has as much ‘spectrum’ as any other orientation.

OK, so you’re saying that the law has got it wrong? That those charged with child sex offences are not always, or not not even mostly, paedophiles. And that true paedophiles as of DSM-V are mostly not guilty of child sex offences?

The law can only bring people to account for their actions, not their thoughts. I might be a homicidal maniac in my heart of hearts, but as long as I don’t act on it and actually start killing people there is nothing the law can do to stop me fantasising about killing you.

Happens most days to me with moll.

Reply Quote

Date: 24/06/2020 20:13:31
From: wookiemeister
ID: 1578553
Subject: re: Do paedophiles hear colours?

Firing squads

Reply Quote

Date: 24/06/2020 20:16:30
From: wookiemeister
ID: 1578556
Subject: re: Do paedophiles hear colours?

roughbarked said:


If a paedophile does it out of feelings of love, why do they share the kiddies around or kill them?

Right

Firing squads is the safest option

Reply Quote

Date: 26/06/2020 20:29:00
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1579701
Subject: re: Do paedophiles hear colours?

PermeateFree said:


party_pants said:

mollwollfumble said:

OK, so you’re saying that the law has got it wrong? That those charged with child sex offences are not always, or not not even mostly, paedophiles. And that true paedophiles as of DSM-V are mostly not guilty of child sex offences?

The law can only bring people to account for their actions, not their thoughts. I might be a homicidal maniac in my heart of hearts, but as long as I don’t act on it and actually start killing people there is nothing the law can do to stop me fantasising about killing you.

Happens most days to me with moll.

Sorry about that. :-)

Reply Quote