Date: 18/07/2020 15:20:43
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1591916
Subject: How Viruses Evolve

An interesting read.

>>The faded nightmares of our past — pandemics that terrorized, then receded, such as SARS in 2003 and flu in 1918-20 and again in 1957, 1968 and 2009 — went away not because the viruses evolved to cause milder disease, but for other reasons. In the case of SARS, the virus made people sick enough that health workers were able to contain the disease before it got out of hand. “People who got SARS got very sick, very fast and were easily identified, easily tracked and readily quarantined — and their contacts were also readily identified and quarantined,” says Mark Cameron, an immunologist at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, who worked in a Toronto hospital during the height of the SARS outbreak there. That was never going to be as easy to do for Covid-19 because people who don’t show symptoms can spread the virus.

Flu pandemics, meanwhile, have tended to recede for another reason, one that offers more hope in our present moment: Enough of the population eventually becomes immune to slow the virus down. The H1N1 influenza virus that caused the 1918 pandemic continued as the main influenza virus until the 1950s, and its descendants still circulate in the human population. What made the virus such a threat in 1918-20 is that it was novel and people had little immunity. Once much of the population had been exposed to the virus and had developed immunity, the pandemic waned, although the virus persisted at a lower level of infections — as it does to this day. It appears less lethal now largely because older people, who are at greatest risk of dying from influenza, have usually encountered H1N1 influenza or something like it at some point in their lives and retain some degree of immunity, Read says.

With the new coronavirus, Parrish says, “we’re sort of in that 1918 period where the virus is spreading fast in a naive population.” But that will change as more people either catch Covid-19 or are vaccinated (if and when that becomes possible) and develop some level of immunity. “There’s no question that once the population is largely immune, the virus will die down,” Parrish says.

The question is how long that immunity will last: for a lifetime, like smallpox, or just a few years, like flu? In part, that will depend on whether the vaccine induces a permanent antibody response or just a temporary one. But it also depends on whether the virus can change to evade the antibodies generated by the vaccine. Although coronaviruses don’t accumulate mutations as fast as flu viruses, they do still change. And at least one, which causes bronchitis in chickens, has evolved new variants that aren’t covered by previous vaccines. But at this point, no one knows what to expect from SARS-CoV-2.<<

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/how-viruses-evolve-180975343/

Reply Quote

Date: 18/07/2020 15:30:19
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1591917
Subject: re: How Viruses Evolve

I wonder how many colds and flu come people people who get cold and then get running noses from being cold then get a flu from that?

Reply Quote

Date: 18/07/2020 15:32:25
From: buffy
ID: 1591918
Subject: re: How Viruses Evolve

Mr buffy and I were talking about evolution this afternoon. Given the unlikelihood of a vaccine, it begins to look like Sweden may have taken a reasonable route – albeit in error in not properly sequestering the nursing homes very early. By now they must have quite good levels of community immunity, even if it is a short term thing. They shouldn’t have any “second wave”. And as this thing hasn’t been around all that long, I don’t really think anyone has a good handle at all on how long immunity after infection might last.

Reply Quote

Date: 18/07/2020 15:32:30
From: ChrispenEvan
ID: 1591919
Subject: re: How Viruses Evolve

Tau.Neutrino said:


I wonder how many colds and flu come people people who get cold and then get running noses from being cold then get a flu from that?

you don’t get a cold from being cold otherwise people in the polar regions would always have colds.

Reply Quote

Date: 18/07/2020 15:33:05
From: buffy
ID: 1591920
Subject: re: How Viruses Evolve

Tau.Neutrino said:


I wonder how many colds and flu come people people who get cold and then get running noses from being cold then get a flu from that?

Needs re-wording. Doesn’t make sense.

Reply Quote

Date: 18/07/2020 15:35:07
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1591921
Subject: re: How Viruses Evolve

Tau.Neutrino said:


I wonder how many colds and flu come people people who get cold and then get running noses from being cold then get a flu from that?

Unlikely as they are different diseases, although the immune system would have been compromised to make you more susceptible to other viral infections.

Reply Quote

Date: 18/07/2020 15:36:11
From: SCIENCE
ID: 1591922
Subject: re: How Viruses Evolve

buffy said:


Tau.Neutrino said:

I wonder how many colds and flu come people people who get cold and then get running noses from being cold then get a flu from that?

Needs re-wording. Doesn’t make sense.

change some of the “people” to “from” and it should be interpretable enough

Reply Quote

Date: 18/07/2020 15:37:23
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1591923
Subject: re: How Viruses Evolve

buffy said:


Tau.Neutrino said:

I wonder how many colds and flu come people people who get cold and then get running noses from being cold then get a flu from that?

Needs re-wording. Doesn’t make sense.

Some people live in cold houses, they get cold, then their noses run

now if that is sustained, virus mutation could then occur thus giving that person a flu

Reply Quote

Date: 18/07/2020 15:38:23
From: SCIENCE
ID: 1591924
Subject: re: How Viruses Evolve

buffy said:


Mr buffy and I were talking about evolution this afternoon. Given the unlikelihood of a vaccine, it begins to look like Sweden may have taken a reasonable route – albeit in error in not properly sequestering the nursing homes very early. By now they must have quite good levels of community immunity, even if it is a short term thing. They shouldn’t have any “second wave”. And as this thing hasn’t been around all that long, I don’t really think anyone has a good handle at all on how long immunity after infection might last.

well if the first wave is still going then no second wave appearing yet

maybe Sweden were behind the Axis of Genius, telling everyone to let this thing get out of hand do they could prove that they would have stability in a world that refused to eradicate COVID-19

Reply Quote

Date: 18/07/2020 15:39:11
From: transition
ID: 1591926
Subject: re: How Viruses Evolve

>“There’s no question that once the population is largely immune, the virus will die down,” Parrish says.

I see the soft eugenics kicking around in the not entirely uncommon failure to point out group immunity is largely got from (the virus) eliminating those that failed to have a life-saving immune response

Reply Quote

Date: 18/07/2020 15:40:28
From: buffy
ID: 1591927
Subject: re: How Viruses Evolve

Tau.Neutrino said:


buffy said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

I wonder how many colds and flu come people people who get cold and then get running noses from being cold then get a flu from that?

Needs re-wording. Doesn’t make sense.

Some people live in cold houses, they get cold, then their noses run

now if that is sustained, virus mutation could then occur thus giving that person a flu

No.

Reply Quote

Date: 18/07/2020 15:41:01
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1591929
Subject: re: How Viruses Evolve

Tau.Neutrino said:


buffy said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

I wonder how many colds and flu come people people who get cold and then get running noses from being cold then get a flu from that?

Needs re-wording. Doesn’t make sense.

Some people live in cold houses, they get cold, then their noses run

now if that is sustained, virus mutation could then occur thus giving that person a flu

That is one way

another way their nose is just running regardless of temperature

virus can mutate and that person gets a flu

Reply Quote

Date: 18/07/2020 15:41:42
From: SCIENCE
ID: 1591931
Subject: re: How Viruses Evolve

Tau.Neutrino said:


Tau.Neutrino said:

buffy said:

Needs re-wording. Doesn’t make sense.

Some people live in cold houses, they get cold, then their noses run

now if that is sustained, virus mutation could then occur thus giving that person a flu

That is one way

another way their nose is just running regardless of temperature

virus can mutate and that person gets a flu

um what is this virus you speak of

Reply Quote

Date: 18/07/2020 15:42:23
From: buffy
ID: 1591932
Subject: re: How Viruses Evolve

For Tau:

https://www.winchesterhospital.org/health-library/article?id=156976

Reply Quote

Date: 18/07/2020 15:44:51
From: SCIENCE
ID: 1591933
Subject: re: How Viruses Evolve

buffy said:


For Tau:

https://www.winchesterhospital.org/health-library/article?id=156976

is it possible that cold air causes runny noses and that causes people to touch noses and that causes contaminated hands to spread influenza more effectively though

Reply Quote

Date: 18/07/2020 15:49:30
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1591934
Subject: re: How Viruses Evolve

Im wondering how people get viruses ?

How are these people getting virus when they are healthy ?

I thought virus could get into the body from an infection of some kind ?

How are people breathing in air with the virus and then getting the virus from just breathing?

Reply Quote

Date: 18/07/2020 15:53:29
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1591935
Subject: re: How Viruses Evolve

On off topic so Ill start a new thread.

Reply Quote

Date: 18/07/2020 15:53:58
From: Witty Rejoinder
ID: 1591936
Subject: re: How Viruses Evolve

Tau.Neutrino said:

How are people breathing in air with the virus and then getting the virus from just breathing?

Well the nose for one is an organ designed to take in particles from where they enter the blood-stream.

Reply Quote

Date: 18/07/2020 15:56:59
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1591940
Subject: re: How Viruses Evolve

buffy said:


Mr buffy and I were talking about evolution this afternoon. Given the unlikelihood of a vaccine, it begins to look like Sweden may have taken a reasonable route – albeit in error in not properly sequestering the nursing homes very early. By now they must have quite good levels of community immunity, even if it is a short term thing. They shouldn’t have any “second wave”. And as this thing hasn’t been around all that long, I don’t really think anyone has a good handle at all on how long immunity after infection might last.

??

Like USA isn’t having a second wave?

Reply Quote

Date: 18/07/2020 15:59:25
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1591942
Subject: re: How Viruses Evolve

Some related articles

Evolution of viruses
https://www.khanacademy.org/science/biology/biology-of-viruses/virus-biology/a/evolution-of-viruses

Viral evolution
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viral_evolution

How viruses evolve, and in some cases, become deadly
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/01/120126224526.htm

Reply Quote

Date: 18/07/2020 16:02:01
From: buffy
ID: 1591944
Subject: re: How Viruses Evolve

The Rev Dodgson said:


buffy said:

Mr buffy and I were talking about evolution this afternoon. Given the unlikelihood of a vaccine, it begins to look like Sweden may have taken a reasonable route – albeit in error in not properly sequestering the nursing homes very early. By now they must have quite good levels of community immunity, even if it is a short term thing. They shouldn’t have any “second wave”. And as this thing hasn’t been around all that long, I don’t really think anyone has a good handle at all on how long immunity after infection might last.

??

Like USA isn’t having a second wave?

They haven’t really tried to control, so they just have one ongoing wave until nature sorts it out in the usual way. The virus replicates, maybe mutates, some people succumb, some don’t. Where the population live closely the virus can spread easily and it will. If medical care is not available for any of many reasons, more people will die than in places where medical care is available. That is the way evolution works. For both us and the virus.

Reply Quote

Date: 18/07/2020 16:06:21
From: transition
ID: 1591946
Subject: re: How Viruses Evolve

>How are people breathing in air with the virus and then getting the virus from just breathing?

replicates in the airways, hijacks the workings of cells, gets pumped in and out by breathing. People swap air all the time, even the word people I just used has got a neat p to launch moisture (droplets) from airways and lungs, and coronavirus you go deep for that one, fortunate for the virus it’s combining with humans for transport, sociable verbose species, gets around a lot, it’s found an ideal vehicle

the new coronavirus is adapted to a cell type that is more common, exists throughout the body, so causes (more) disease elsewhere (in some people, a very significant number, an uncomfortably high number) than say most regular other respiratory illnesses

try putting a mirror or glass up close to you mouth when breathing, you’ll see the moisture, that transports the little replicators

Reply Quote

Date: 18/07/2020 16:16:35
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1591957
Subject: re: How Viruses Evolve

What came first, cells or viruses?
A biological enigma that goes to the heart of the origin of life.
https://cosmosmagazine.com/biology/what-came-first-cells-or-viruses/

Reply Quote

Date: 18/07/2020 16:19:11
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1591960
Subject: re: How Viruses Evolve

Tau.Neutrino said:


What came first, cells or viruses?
A biological enigma that goes to the heart of the origin of life.
https://cosmosmagazine.com/biology/what-came-first-cells-or-viruses/

What came first?

The chicken-pox or the cell?

Reply Quote

Date: 18/07/2020 16:19:31
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1591961
Subject: re: How Viruses Evolve

The Origins of Viruses

By: David R. Wessner, Ph.D. (Dept. of Biology, Davidson College) © 2010 Nature Education
Citation: Wessner, D. R. (2010) The Origins of Viruses. Nature Education 3(9):37

https://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/the-origins-of-viruses-14398218/

Reply Quote

Date: 18/07/2020 16:27:09
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1591965
Subject: re: How Viruses Evolve

Youtube Videos

Where Do New Viruses Come From?
Viruses (Updated)
Virus Evolution
David Baltimore (Caltech): Introduction to Viruses
Where Did Viruses Come From?

PBS Video
How Viruses Like the Novel Coronavirus Evolve

Reply Quote

Date: 18/07/2020 17:06:57
From: poikilotherm
ID: 1591987
Subject: re: How Viruses Evolve

The Rev Dodgson said:


Tau.Neutrino said:

What came first, cells or viruses?
A biological enigma that goes to the heart of the origin of life.
https://cosmosmagazine.com/biology/what-came-first-cells-or-viruses/

What came first?

The chicken-pox or the cell?

Last I read viruses came after cells.

Reply Quote

Date: 18/07/2020 17:16:43
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1591995
Subject: re: How Viruses Evolve

poikilotherm said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

What came first, cells or viruses?
A biological enigma that goes to the heart of the origin of life.
https://cosmosmagazine.com/biology/what-came-first-cells-or-viruses/

What came first?

The chicken-pox or the cell?

Last I read viruses came after cells.

T-N’s links seem to suggest it is still a matter of debate.

I have no idea.

Reply Quote

Date: 18/07/2020 17:16:50
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1591996
Subject: re: How Viruses Evolve

> Last I read viruses came after cells.

Yep. But there could still have been viruses around 4.5 billion years ago.

Was reading today about searches for live viruses amongst Apollo 11 moon rocks and soil.
None were found – live.

I still think it’s worthwhile looking for fossil cells and viruses in the Apollo moon rocks. Chemical trace fossils would suffice, doesn’t have to be whole cells. Moon rocks have typically 260 ppm of carbon, which is a lot more than Mars surface rocks.

Reply Quote

Date: 18/07/2020 17:20:51
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1591999
Subject: re: How Viruses Evolve

poikilotherm said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

What came first, cells or viruses?
A biological enigma that goes to the heart of the origin of life.
https://cosmosmagazine.com/biology/what-came-first-cells-or-viruses/

What came first?

The chicken-pox or the cell?

Last I read viruses came after cells.

+1

Reply Quote

Date: 18/07/2020 17:23:02
From: transition
ID: 1592002
Subject: re: How Viruses Evolve

buffy said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

buffy said:

Mr buffy and I were talking about evolution this afternoon. Given the unlikelihood of a vaccine, it begins to look like Sweden may have taken a reasonable route – albeit in error in not properly sequestering the nursing homes very early. By now they must have quite good levels of community immunity, even if it is a short term thing. They shouldn’t have any “second wave”. And as this thing hasn’t been around all that long, I don’t really think anyone has a good handle at all on how long immunity after infection might last.

??

Like USA isn’t having a second wave?

They haven’t really tried to control, so they just have one ongoing wave until nature sorts it out in the usual way. The virus replicates, maybe mutates, some people succumb, some don’t. Where the population live closely the virus can spread easily and it will. If medical care is not available for any of many reasons, more people will die than in places where medical care is available. That is the way evolution works. For both us and the virus.

variously space and behaviors, and species types, separations (barriers), evolved also, contribute to barriers to the spread of disease causing pathogens, they’re no less nature, and part of the usual ways too

and of people, they commonly limit social contact to avoiding catching things, even can be done unknowingly

probably one of the incentives to cooking food, starting way back, to avoid illness from food (which’d otherwise be a raw animal, for example), the cooking is a barrier

so i’d argue disease barriers have evolved also, are natural

wine probably originated way back as a source of safe fluids for drinking

Reply Quote