Raise the Age

“All Australian governments must raise the age at which children can be arrested or locked up from 10 to 14 years.

Australia’s low age of minimum criminal responsibility is well out of step with international standards. Children aged 10 to 13 years old are going through significant growth and development, and treating them like criminals through early contact with the criminal justice system can lead to irreparable harm and long term damage. Depriving young children of their liberty is depriving them of their childhood.”

…

and guess which group is disproportionately affected by this?

Depends on the crime though, minor stuff fair enough but what if its violence against some innocent party

Cymek said:

Depends on the crime though, minor stuff fair enough but what if its violence against some innocent party

What if a 9 1/2 year old does that?

More details of the current legislation can be found at:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_criminal_responsibility_in_Australia

• and guess which group is disproportionately affected by this?

Children with bad parents?

furious said:

• and guess which group is disproportionately affected by this?

Children with bad parents?

or children of parents who have been marginalised their whole life, as were their parents, so lack the skills to properly care for their children.

furious said:

• and guess which group is disproportionately affected by this?

Children with bad parents?

That’s a fair point to make
I’m probably biased but regardless of ethnicity some really nasty people exist out there (including juveniles)

Cymek said:

furious said:

• and guess which group is disproportionately affected by this?

Children with bad parents?

That’s a fair point to make
I’m probably biased but regardless of ethnicity some really nasty people exist out there (including juveniles)

That being said 14 isn’t an unreasonable proposal.

Cymek said:

Cymek said:

furious said:

• and guess which group is disproportionately affected by this?

Children with bad parents?

That’s a fair point to make
I’m probably biased but regardless of ethnicity some really nasty people exist out there (including juveniles)

That being said 14 isn’t an unreasonable proposal.

Then how will juvenile criminals be dealt with?

The Rev Dodgson said:

and guess which group is disproportionately affected by this?

Juvenile criminals?

The Rev Dodgson said:

Raise the Age

“All Australian governments must raise the age at which children can be arrested or locked up from 10 to 14 years.

Australia’s low age of minimum criminal responsibility is well out of step with international standards. Children aged 10 to 13 years old are going through significant growth and development, and treating them like criminals through early contact with the criminal justice system can lead to irreparable harm and long term damage. Depriving young children of their liberty is depriving them of their childhood.”

James Bulger was killed by a couple of ten years olds.

What kind of crimes are we talking about here?

Tamb said:

Cymek said:

Cymek said:

That’s a fair point to make
I’m probably biased but regardless of ethnicity some really nasty people exist out there (including juveniles)

That being said 14 isn’t an unreasonable proposal.

Then how will juvenile criminals be dealt with?

It would still include ages 14 – nearly 18
All I’m saying is some excuses don’t necessarily wash if the person is dangerous.
Juveniles in prison would usually be considered a public danger

I’m not a doctor or psychologist… but I dunno about this statement:
“ Children at this age do not have the mental capacity, nor have they reached a stage of moral development, to fully understand the impact or consequences of their behaviour”

By age 5, most kids know what’s right and wrong, and know their are consequences unless their parents/carers aren’t the type to dole out punishments.

Divine Angel said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Raise the Age

“All Australian governments must raise the age at which children can be arrested or locked up from 10 to 14 years.

Australia’s low age of minimum criminal responsibility is well out of step with international standards. Children aged 10 to 13 years old are going through significant growth and development, and treating them like criminals through early contact with the criminal justice system can lead to irreparable harm and long term damage. Depriving young children of their liberty is depriving them of their childhood.”

James Bulger was killed by a couple of ten years olds.

What kind of crimes are we talking about here?

What sort of crimes would we be talking about if he had been killed by a couple of 9 year olds?

The question is not whether kids under the age of 14 can do bad things. Of course they can.

The question is at what age this behaviour should be treated as “criminal”.

I say just let people smash things up without any repercussions.

We could trial this in Melbourne

I think arrest and imprisonment are different matters. I think the cops should definitely be able to arrest them when necessary and take them to a safe place where they can calm down and get seen to by professional counselors. Charging them with crimes and locking them up to serve sentences is a separate and more serious issue.

party_pants said:

I think arrest and imprisonment are different matters. I think the cops should definitely be able to arrest them when necessary and take them to a safe place where they can calm down and get seen to by professional counselors. Charging them with crimes and locking them up to serve sentences is a separate and more serious issue.

Yes, that’s the key point at issue.

I’m pretty sure that no-one is suggesting that kids under the age of 14 (or indeed under 10) should be able to do whatever they like.

The Rev Dodgson said:

The question is at what age this behaviour should be treated as “criminal”.

An act is criminal or it isn’t. The big question is what punishment is suitable for someone under the age of 18.

Dark Orange said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

The question is at what age this behaviour should be treated as “criminal”.

An act is criminal or it isn’t. The big question is what punishment is suitable for someone under the age of 18.

Imprisonment is the last option for juveniles, they’d have to have committed serious acts of violence to get locked up.
Even acts like Armed Robbery and serious assaults usually don’t get them prison

Dark Orange said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

The question is at what age this behaviour should be treated as “criminal”.

An act is criminal or it isn’t. The big question is what punishment is suitable for someone under the age of 18.

No, that isn’t how it works.

An act can only be “criminal” if the person committing the act has the mental capability to appreciate the consequences of what they are doing.

And the age in question is 10, not 18.

And lower the voting age.

Divine Angel said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Raise the Age

“All Australian governments must raise the age at which children can be arrested or locked up from 10 to 14 years.

Australia’s low age of minimum criminal responsibility is well out of step with international standards. Children aged 10 to 13 years old are going through significant growth and development, and treating them like criminals through early contact with the criminal justice system can lead to irreparable harm and long term damage. Depriving young children of their liberty is depriving them of their childhood.”

James Bulger was killed by a couple of ten years olds.

What kind of crimes are we talking about here?

“The shooting death of a 2-year-old girl by her 5-year-old brother has opened …”
From https://www.npr.org/2013/05/02/180607299/when-it-comes-to-guns-how-young-is-too-young

Over in Africa we have nine year olds toting machine guns.

The answer to “the age” has to be a cultural thing. Higher in peaceful societies.

mollwollfumble said:

Divine Angel said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Raise the Age

“All Australian governments must raise the age at which children can be arrested or locked up from 10 to 14 years.

Australia’s low age of minimum criminal responsibility is well out of step with international standards. Children aged 10 to 13 years old are going through significant growth and development, and treating them like criminals through early contact with the criminal justice system can lead to irreparable harm and long term damage. Depriving young children of their liberty is depriving them of their childhood.”

James Bulger was killed by a couple of ten years olds.

What kind of crimes are we talking about here?

“The shooting death of a 2-year-old girl by her 5-year-old brother has opened …”
From https://www.npr.org/2013/05/02/180607299/when-it-comes-to-guns-how-young-is-too-young

Over in Africa we have nine year olds toting machine guns.

The answer to “the age” has to be a cultural thing. Higher in peaceful societies.

Aren’t children stolen and indoctrinated into become soldiers, that’s messed up in so many ways

Regarding Aboriginal juveniles, they openly flout the law and know the law cannot touch them until they reach incarceration age, In other words no matter what you do the problem will remain, except now instead of 10 years of age it will be 14 years of age and they shall be more entrenched in their waywardness and contempt for the law. The solution I believe is not more laws or the relaxation of laws because they will not work, but we should give the Aboriginal Communities greater powers to manage their own people, then and only then will the young begin to respect law and order and become responsible citizens.

PermeateFree said:

Regarding Aboriginal juveniles, they openly flout the law and know the law cannot touch them until they reach incarceration age, In other words no matter what you do the problem will remain, except now instead of 10 years of age it will be 14 years of age and they shall be more entrenched in their waywardness and contempt for the law. The solution I believe is not more laws or the relaxation of laws because they will not work, but we should give the Aboriginal Communities greater powers to manage their own people, then and only then will the young begin to respect law and order and become responsible citizens.

They have a lot of difficulty managing inter family affairs and violence is rife in the communities.

PermeateFree said:

Regarding Aboriginal juveniles, they openly flout the law and know the law cannot touch them until they reach incarceration age, In other words no matter what you do the problem will remain, except now instead of 10 years of age it will be 14 years of age and they shall be more entrenched in their waywardness and contempt for the law. The solution I believe is not more laws or the relaxation of laws because they will not work, but we should give the Aboriginal Communities greater powers to manage their own people, then and only then will the young begin to respect law and order and become responsible citizens.

Its worth a try

Tamb said:

PermeateFree said:

Regarding Aboriginal juveniles, they openly flout the law and know the law cannot touch them until they reach incarceration age, In other words no matter what you do the problem will remain, except now instead of 10 years of age it will be 14 years of age and they shall be more entrenched in their waywardness and contempt for the law. The solution I believe is not more laws or the relaxation of laws because they will not work, but we should give the Aboriginal Communities greater powers to manage their own people, then and only then will the young begin to respect law and order and become responsible citizens.

They have a lot of difficulty managing inter family affairs and violence is rife in the communities.

Because there is no law and order in the community and the Elders can do nothing about it. They must be given that power to control and punish their own.

PermeateFree said:

Tamb said:

PermeateFree said:

Regarding Aboriginal juveniles, they openly flout the law and know the law cannot touch them until they reach incarceration age, In other words no matter what you do the problem will remain, except now instead of 10 years of age it will be 14 years of age and they shall be more entrenched in their waywardness and contempt for the law. The solution I believe is not more laws or the relaxation of laws because they will not work, but we should give the Aboriginal Communities greater powers to manage their own people, then and only then will the young begin to respect law and order and become responsible citizens.

They have a lot of difficulty managing inter family affairs and violence is rife in the communities.

Because there is no law and order in the community and the Elders can do nothing about it. They must be given that power to control and punish their own.

Apartheid is a slippery slope.

PermeateFree said:

Tamb said:

PermeateFree said:

Regarding Aboriginal juveniles, they openly flout the law and know the law cannot touch them until they reach incarceration age, In other words no matter what you do the problem will remain, except now instead of 10 years of age it will be 14 years of age and they shall be more entrenched in their waywardness and contempt for the law. The solution I believe is not more laws or the relaxation of laws because they will not work, but we should give the Aboriginal Communities greater powers to manage their own people, then and only then will the young begin to respect law and order and become responsible citizens.

They have a lot of difficulty managing inter family affairs and violence is rife in the communities.

Because there is no law and order in the community and the Elders can do nothing about it. They must be given that power to control and punish their own.

Does it include physical punishment ?
I don’t think that is wrong if they do (obviously not something permanent) but would that be allowed

Cymek said:

PermeateFree said:

Tamb said:

They have a lot of difficulty managing inter family affairs and violence is rife in the communities.

Because there is no law and order in the community and the Elders can do nothing about it. They must be given that power to control and punish their own.

Does it include physical punishment ?
I don’t think that is wrong if they do (obviously not something permanent) but would that be allowed

It all started to go down hill when they outlawed caning in schools…

furious said:

Cymek said:

PermeateFree said:

Because there is no law and order in the community and the Elders can do nothing about it. They must be given that power to control and punish their own.

Does it include physical punishment ?
I don’t think that is wrong if they do (obviously not something permanent) but would that be allowed

It all started to go down hill when they outlawed caning in schools…

Mr Perkins: Are you mad!?

Headmaster: I’m FURIOUS! In order to accommodate the funeral, I had to cancel afternoon school on Wednesday!

Tamb said:

PermeateFree said:

Tamb said:

They have a lot of difficulty managing inter family affairs and violence is rife in the communities.

Because there is no law and order in the community and the Elders can do nothing about it. They must be given that power to control and punish their own.

Apartheid is a slippery slope.

Not Apartheid, just permitting two cultures to live together. Currently we dominate completely.

Bubblecar said:

Um, wrong thread.

PermeateFree said:

Tamb said:

PermeateFree said:

Because there is no law and order in the community and the Elders can do nothing about it. They must be given that power to control and punish their own.

Apartheid is a slippery slope.

Not Apartheid, just permitting two cultures to live together. Currently we dominate completely.

Having two systems of justice is contrary to the constitution.

Cymek said:

PermeateFree said:

Tamb said:

They have a lot of difficulty managing inter family affairs and violence is rife in the communities.

Because there is no law and order in the community and the Elders can do nothing about it. They must be given that power to control and punish their own.

Does it include physical punishment ?
I don’t think that is wrong if they do (obviously not something permanent) but would that be allowed

Something like this exists like NZ and has been trialed in Australia. Less serious crimes are discussed with the perpetrator and their parents, plus the victim if there is one. It is a matter of respect and shame that to indigenous peoples is more important than being locked up.

Tamb said:

PermeateFree said:

Tamb said:

Apartheid is a slippery slope.

Not Apartheid, just permitting two cultures to live together. Currently we dominate completely.

Having two systems of justice is contrary to the constitution.

It is not two systems, but a matter of control within a community, which need local regulations to maintain order.

Tamb said:

PermeateFree said:

Tamb said:

Apartheid is a slippery slope.

Not Apartheid, just permitting two cultures to live together. Currently we dominate completely.

Having two systems of justice is contrary to the constitution.

Really?

Federal constitution, or State constitutions?

Michael V said:

Tamb said:

PermeateFree said:

Not Apartheid, just permitting two cultures to live together. Currently we dominate completely.

Having two systems of justice is contrary to the constitution.

Really?

Federal constitution, or State constitutions?

The bit about all equal under the law.

Bubblecar said:

Bubblecar said:

Um, wrong thread.

Nah, that’d sort out them young hoodlums…

Tamb said:

Michael V said:

Tamb said:

Having two systems of justice is contrary to the constitution.

Really?

Federal constitution, or State constitutions?

The bit about all equal under the law.

Currently, the laws regarding Aboriginal juveniles is simply not working and is unlikely to ever work. Most people would think a different approach might be a better way to go.

Some people think newspapers exaggerate juvenile crime, or that it’s confined mostly to large cities. Juvenile delinquency’s on the rise…thus apparent that something has gone wrong with the environment. Adults create the world children live in. Juvenile delinquency is always rooted in adult delinquency, and in this process parents play the key role. When children grow up among adults who refuse to recognise anything that is fine and good or worthy of respect…

Bubblecar said:

Serious crime is handled under normal criminal jurisdiction.

Tamb said:

Michael V said:

Tamb said:

Having two systems of justice is contrary to the constitution.

Really?

Federal constitution, or State constitutions?

The bit about all equal under the law.

But which constitution is this in?

furious said:

Some people think newspapers exaggerate juvenile crime, or that it’s confined mostly to large cities. Juvenile delinquency’s on the rise…thus apparent that something has gone wrong with the environment. Adults create the world children live in. Juvenile delinquency is always rooted in adult delinquency, and in this process parents play the key role. When children grow up among adults who refuse to recognise anything that is fine and good or worthy of respect…

White people chucked that idea out the window generations ago. What we have left is the wreckage we have created, and it is long overdue that whites accepted the situation and tried to rectify the situation without the use of the big stick.

furious said:

Some people think newspapers exaggerate juvenile crime, or that it’s confined mostly to large cities. Juvenile delinquency’s on the rise…thus apparent that something has gone wrong with the environment. Adults create the world children live in. Juvenile delinquency is always rooted in adult delinquency, and in this process parents play the key role. When children grow up among adults who refuse to recognise anything that is fine and good or worthy of respect…

Isn’t that or something like it from a Ministry song

Cymek said:

furious said:

Some people think newspapers exaggerate juvenile crime, or that it’s confined mostly to large cities. Juvenile delinquency’s on the rise…thus apparent that something has gone wrong with the environment. Adults create the world children live in. Juvenile delinquency is always rooted in adult delinquency, and in this process parents play the key role. When children grow up among adults who refuse to recognise anything that is fine and good or worthy of respect…

Isn’t that or something like it from a Ministry song

So What…

furious said:

Cymek said:

furious said:

Some people think newspapers exaggerate juvenile crime, or that it’s confined mostly to large cities. Juvenile delinquency’s on the rise…thus apparent that something has gone wrong with the environment. Adults create the world children live in. Juvenile delinquency is always rooted in adult delinquency, and in this process parents play the key role. When children grow up among adults who refuse to recognise anything that is fine and good or worthy of respect…

Isn’t that or something like it from a Ministry song

So What…

Yes

Tamb said:

PermeateFree said:

Tamb said:

Apartheid is a slippery slope.

Not Apartheid, just permitting two cultures to live together. Currently we dominate completely.

Having two systems of justice is contrary to the constitution.

Actually it’s not:

“The race power under the Constitution authorises racially discriminatory laws. Section 51(xxvi) of the Australian Constitution empowers the Commonwealth Parliament to make laws for the people of any race for whom it is deemed necessary to make special laws.”

https://cdn.hcourt.gov.au/assets/publications/speeches/current-justices/frenchcj/frenchcj_27Aug2015.pdf

Cymek said:

furious said:

Cymek said:

Isn’t that or something like it from a Ministry song

So What…

Yes

Sampled from this movie:

The Violent Years

Divine Angel said:

I’m not a doctor or psychologist… but I dunno about this statement:
“ Children at this age do not have the mental capacity, nor have they reached a stage of moral development, to fully understand the impact or consequences of their behaviour”

By age 5, most kids know what’s right and wrong, and know their are consequences unless their parents/carers aren’t the type to dole out punishments.

I think they are talking about impulsivity… which is not fully developed (and generally not until early 20’s). this makes most children susceptible to actions that do not ‘maketh the man’ so to speak.

I mean, this isn’t a one tier social issue, of course. But if our criminal justice system does not consider rehabilitative opportunities then it’s not the restorative system it claims to be.

As for motivations behind crime… well, take your pick we can go for Marxism, Functionist theories. Realist and interactionist theories…

for juveniles labelling theory (Becker, Cohen) is a pretty big consideration, which is partly the function behind this idea of keeping delinquents out of the system..

considering doli incapax across different jurisdictions can be a bit dangerous, but also to take into consideration local demographics is probably a cromulent idea in a country as diverse as Australia.

Arts said:

Divine Angel said:

I’m not a doctor or psychologist… but I dunno about this statement:
“ Children at this age do not have the mental capacity, nor have they reached a stage of moral development, to fully understand the impact or consequences of their behaviour”

By age 5, most kids know what’s right and wrong, and know their are consequences unless their parents/carers aren’t the type to dole out punishments.

considering doli incapax across different jurisdictions can be a bit dangerous,

That’s all greek to me.

furious said:

Some people think newspapers exaggerate juvenile crime, or that it’s confined mostly to large cities. Juvenile delinquency’s on the rise…

Between 2016–17 and 2017–18, the youth offender rate decreased for all jurisdictions except Western Australia which increased by 4 offenders per 100,000 persons. (Table 20)

In 2017–18 the number of youth offenders decreased in:

Northern Territory 27 offenders or 4%
Queensland by 294 offenders or 2%
New South Wales, Tasmania and the Australian Capital Territory by less than 1% (Table 20)

https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/by%20Subject/4519.0~2017-18~Main%20Features~Youth%20Offenders~4

Arts said:

furious said:

Some people think newspapers exaggerate juvenile crime, or that it’s confined mostly to large cities. Juvenile delinquency’s on the rise…

Between 2016–17 and 2017–18, the youth offender rate decreased for all jurisdictions except Western Australia which increased by 4 offenders per 100,000 persons. (Table 20)

In 2017–18 the number of youth offenders decreased in:

Northern Territory 27 offenders or 4%
Queensland by 294 offenders or 2%
New South Wales, Tasmania and the Australian Capital Territory by less than 1% (Table 20)

https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/by%20Subject/4519.0~2017-18~Main%20Features~Youth%20Offenders~4

Yeah, sorry about that, like Cymek noted, it was from song…

furious said:

Arts said:

furious said:

Some people think newspapers exaggerate juvenile crime, or that it’s confined mostly to large cities. Juvenile delinquency’s on the rise…

Between 2016–17 and 2017–18, the youth offender rate decreased for all jurisdictions except Western Australia which increased by 4 offenders per 100,000 persons. (Table 20)

In 2017–18 the number of youth offenders decreased in:

Northern Territory 27 offenders or 4%
Queensland by 294 offenders or 2%
New South Wales, Tasmania and the Australian Capital Territory by less than 1% (Table 20)

https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/by%20Subject/4519.0~2017-18~Main%20Features~Youth%20Offenders~4

Yeah, sorry about that, like Cymek noted, it was from song…

never mix statistics and poetry.

The Rev Dodgson said:

Raise the Age

“All Australian governments must raise the age at which children can be arrested or locked up from 10 to 14 years.

Australia’s low age of minimum criminal responsibility is well out of step with international standards. Children aged 10 to 13 years old are going through significant growth and development, and treating them like criminals through early contact with the criminal justice system can lead to irreparable harm and long term damage. Depriving young children of their liberty is depriving them of their childhood.”

…

and guess which group is disproportionately affected by this?

Bump