Date: 2/09/2020 21:14:07
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1613569
Subject: Sunni, shiite, ISIS, Hussain, Taliban, Khomeini?

Asking here out of complete ignorance.

Watched a good SBS program right now that turned what I thought I knew about ISIS and Iraq completely on its head. So I need to start again totally from scratch.

Reply Quote

Date: 3/09/2020 04:54:15
From: roughbarked
ID: 1613627
Subject: re: Sunni, shiite, ISIS, Hussain, Taliban, Khomeini?

Firstly; The divide is traced to 632 A.D., when the Islamic Prophet Muhammad died and a debate emerged about who should be his successor.

Both sides agreed that Allah is the one true God and that Muhammad was his messenger, but one group (which eventually became the Shiites) felt Muhammad’s successor should be someone in his bloodline, while the other (which became the Sunnis) felt a pious individual who would follow the Prophet’s customs was acceptable.

So it was about leadership rather than a religious difference. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/mideast/what-are-differences-between-sunni-shiite-muslims-n489951

Reply Quote

Date: 3/09/2020 04:57:43
From: roughbarked
ID: 1613628
Subject: re: Sunni, shiite, ISIS, Hussain, Taliban, Khomeini?

Secondly, again if they all stayed with Mahommed, they’d be by and large a peaceable people.
Since about 90% of Muslims are Sunni then Bin Laden, Gadaffi etc are all leaders who are acceptable to Sunni’s despite whatever garbage comes out of them.

Reply Quote

Date: 3/09/2020 05:31:09
From: roughbarked
ID: 1613629
Subject: re: Sunni, shiite, ISIS, Hussain, Taliban, Khomeini?

Islam was more than a private religion—it dictated social and political events. The successor to Muhammad would have powerful influence over society, government, and trade.

Many would say this is a dangerous place to put religion but that is the way it has been since the death of Muhammed.

Some people thought anyone with qualifications could take over. These were the followers of “the way” (sunna) of Muhammad, and they became known as Sunni Muslims. They insisted Muhammad’s father-in-law and friend Abu Bakr take control.

Others believed that only someone from Muhammad’s family would be the rightful leader. This camp favored Muhammad’s cousin and son-in-law, Ali ibn Abi Talib, and they became known as the shi’atu Ali (“party of Ali”), or Shiite Muslims.

https://www.imb.org/2019/05/24/difference-between-shiite-sunni-muslims/ said:

In the end, the majority Sunni sect got their way and Abu Bakr became the first official successor, or caliph, to the prophet Muhammad. Even so, the Shiites did not recognize Abu Bakr as legitimate and held fast to their conviction about their allegiance to Muhammad’s descendants whom they called Āl al-Bayt, the “family of the house.”

The Shiite-favorite Ali had two sons named Hasan and Husayn. After Ali and his son Hasan’s deaths, Husayn took over as the spiritual leader of Shiite Islam until AD 680 when he was killed by Sunni Muslims during a battle in Karbala, Iraq. This battle and the death of Husayn is a bitter memory for Shiite Muslims. Even centuries later, this martyrdom and the issue of rightful leadership over Islam is still the heart of the Sunni-Shiite divide.

Lutherans and Baptists are basically the same.

Wrong, and both groups would likely agree on that point. Neither is it true that all Muslims are the same. Of the over 1.5 billion Muslims in the world, around 85 percent of them are a sect called Sunni and 15 percent of them are a sect called Shia.

The split is an ancient one—1,387 years old, to be precise. But even today, it threatens the stability of the entire Middle East and offers context to many headlines we see in world news.

So how did this world religion end up with two major sects? It all started when Muhammad, the prophet and founder of Islam, died.
Dispute over Muhammad’s Successor

When Muhammad died in AD 632, a great dispute arose over who would claim his position as the leader of the new religion. Islam was more than a private religion—it dictated social and political events. The successor to Muhammad would have powerful influence over society, government, and trade.

“It all started when Muhammad, the prophet and founder of Islam, died.”

Some people thought anyone with qualifications could take over. These were the followers of “the way” (sunna) of Muhammad, and they became known as Sunni Muslims. They insisted Muhammad’s father-in-law and friend Abu Bakr take control.

Others believed that only someone from Muhammad’s family would be the rightful leader. This camp favored Muhammad’s cousin and son-in-law, Ali ibn Abi Talib, and they became known as the shi’atu Ali (“party of Ali”), or Shiite Muslims.

In the end, the majority Sunni sect got their way and Abu Bakr became the first official successor, or caliph, to the prophet Muhammad. Even so, the Shiites did not recognize Abu Bakr as legitimate and held fast to their conviction about their allegiance to Muhammad’s descendants whom they called Āl al-Bayt, the “family of the house.”

The Shiite-favorite Ali had two sons named Hasan and Husayn. After Ali and his son Hasan’s deaths, Husayn took over as the spiritual leader of Shiite Islam until AD 680 when he was killed by Sunni Muslims during a battle in Karbala, Iraq. This battle and the death of Husayn is a bitter memory for Shiite Muslims. Even centuries later, this martyrdom and the issue of rightful leadership over Islam is still the heart of the Sunni-Shiite divide.
Similarities and Differences in Religious Practice

Both sects maintain the foundational beliefs and practices of Islam. They uphold the Qur’an as the revelation of Allah and hold to Islam’s Five Pillars: giving to the poor, fasting during the month of Ramadan, practicing daily ritual prayers, taking the pilgrimage to Mecca, Saudi Arabia, and professing that there is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet.

Shiite Muslims complete all five daily ritual prayers but squeeze them into three sessions instead of five. When they prostrate for prayer, Shiite Muslims place their face on a clay tablet called a turbah. Many of these tablets are inscribed with the names of Husayn or others from the prophet’s family. For Shiite Muslims, revering the “family of the house” brings you closer to God. Shiites also hold to ten obligatory acts beyond the basic Five Pillars.

The loss of Husayn and the leadership of Muhammad’s family cast an enduring hue of sadness over Shiite Muslims. They live in mourning, wearing black most of the year. One of the biggest Shiite holidays is the anniversary of Husayn’s death on the holiday named Ashura, the tenth day of the Islamic month of Muharram. On this day, Shiite Muslims in the Middle East and Asia parade in the street, chanting laments at the death of Husayn, wailing loudly and beating themselves. Some even flail themselves with chains and cut their own heads with swords.

The city of Karbala in Iraq is a pilgrimage site for Shiite Muslims, many of whom sell everything they own to visit this sacred battleground. In many locations, they even reenact the battle, believing that the recognition and reenactment of the battle at Karbala gets them closer to God. These commemorations are not limited to the Middle East. Shiite Muslims around the world—even in the United States—remember their troubled past and slain leader.

Sunni Muslims find the Shiite obsession with the house of Muhammad to be a false Islam that places undue veneration on the prophet’s family. Likewise, Shiite Muslims feel Sunnis are not true Muslims. Their sharp disagreements, unreconciled for centuries, result in a fractured Middle East and perpetually unresolved tension.

Third, remember that only the truth about Christ sets us free from bondage to sin. Many Muslims approach conversations confident in their ideas against the gospel. You may find your Sunni friends, for example, quick to attack basic Christian beliefs like the authenticity of the New Testament. Yet when we lovingly share the truth of Christ, they have the opportunity to receive freedom as the Spirit opens their hearts.

We celebrate that truth. It’s the truth of a sinless Savior who took the punishment for our sins so all who trust in him for salvation can be forgiven and received into the family of God. And it’s this good news that unites the church in a call to love, a call to go, and a call to proclaim its truth among all Muslims—Sunni and Shiite.

Iran’s Islamic revolution, which brought Shias to power in 1979, and the Sunni backlash have fueled a competition for regional dominance. This timeline highlights Sunni-Shia tensions in recent decades. 1979- 2017

The Sunni-Shia divide: Where they live, what they believe and how they view each other

https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/how-saddam-husseins-execution-contributed-to-the-rise-of-sectarianism-in-the-middle-east/

https://online.ucpress.edu/currenthistory/article-pdf/113/767/339/390227/curh_113_767_339.pdf

ISIS and Gadaffi:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-libya-security-insight/gaddafis-home-town-falls-to-islamic-state-in-anarchic-libya-idUSKBN0O610M20150521 said:

So far, Islamic State has not gained territory as quickly in Libya as it did in Iraq and Syria, where it portrays itself as defenders of Sunni Islam in sectarian wars against governments led by Shi’ite Muslims.

Libyans are overwhelmingly Sunni Muslims, and their divisions tend to be tribal and regional rather than sectarian. Islamic State fighters have had to compete with rival Libyan militant groups who resent the presence of outsiders.

But Sirte, where homes were looted by Misrata rebels after Gaddafi’s fall, is fertile ground. Many residents feel they were losers in the revolution and harbor resentment towards the Misrata fighters.

“Before the revolution life was so much better. We had electricity, security. Schools were always open,” said Mohammed Ali, a student living in a suburb near the power plant.

“They (Islamic State) are fine. They leave you alone unless you fight them,” he said.

He said he had seen Tunisians and other foreigners joining the group, and also Gaddafi loyalists. That would be a similar pattern to Iraq, where former officers from secular dictator Saddam Hussein’s army have supported Islamic State.

•Is it much more subtle than that?

Yes. It basically comes down to the fact that sharing is becoming less of an apparent viable option. Due to overpopulation and the resultant climate change.
I don’t care what others have to say on this but simply a greater demand upon resources caused by overpopulation and polluting industries, coupled with the resulting increased desertification and nutrient starvation by loss of actual indigenous foods are all linked to and from the resulting climate change which in turn makes refugees of the indigenes.

Reply Quote

Date: 3/09/2020 05:39:52
From: roughbarked
ID: 1613630
Subject: re: Sunni, shiite, ISIS, Hussain, Taliban, Khomeini?

roughbarked said:


Secondly, again if they all stayed with Mahommed, they’d be by and large a peaceable people.
Since about 90% of Muslims are Sunni then Bin Laden, Gadaffi etc are all leaders who are acceptable to Sunni’s despite whatever garbage comes out of them.

With the notable exception of Ayatollah Kohemini who used the concept of velayat-e faqih (“guardianship of the jurist”) and fomented greater division and the revolution or Jihad.

Reply Quote

Date: 3/09/2020 06:19:13
From: roughbarked
ID: 1613636
Subject: re: Sunni, shiite, ISIS, Hussain, Taliban, Khomeini?

Water related issues.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamian_Marshes

Reply Quote

Date: 3/09/2020 08:04:32
From: roughbarked
ID: 1613656
Subject: re: Sunni, shiite, ISIS, Hussain, Taliban, Khomeini?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09-03/high-court-islamic-state-membership-question/12622098

Reply Quote

Date: 3/09/2020 16:09:07
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1614046
Subject: re: Sunni, shiite, ISIS, Hussain, Taliban, Khomeini?

Thanks roughbarked, I’m starting to read through all those now.

> Since about 90% of Muslims are Sunni

I didn’t know that.

> Shiite Muslims complete all five daily ritual prayers but squeeze them into three sessions instead of five.

That hardly seems like a basis for war. You say “leadership” rather than “religion”. I’ll have to think about that.

> enduring hue of sadness over Shiite Muslims. They live in mourning, wearing black most of the year.

(Shakes head in wonder.)

> Iran’s Islamic revolution, which brought Shias to power in 1979, and the Sunni backlash have fueled a competition for regional dominance.

So, minority rule. That can be a big cause for war.

> (ISIS) portrays itself as defenders of Sunni Islam in sectarian wars against governments led by Shi’ite Muslims.

So that’s a backlash against minority rule, too. Directly opposite to the grab for power by minority leader Khomeini.

> “They (Islamic State) are fine. They leave you alone unless you fight them”

That is definitely not what the TV documentary I saw said. There were first hand accounts on the program of ISIS killing children and pets.

> Yes. It basically comes down to the fact that sharing is becoming less of an apparent viable option. Due to overpopulation and … increased desertification and nutrient starvation … which in turn makes refugees of the indigenes.

I don’t think the wars in the Arab world are becoming more, or less. Perhaps bigger in scale. The situation now is remarkably similar to that described by Richard Burton in his book “Personal Narrative of a Pilgrimage to El-Medinah and Meccah” (1855-56).

I’m not quite sure how “https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Game” ties in with all of this. The cold war between Russia and Britain in the middle east. But it began in 1830 and continues to the present day.

I’m still to read the rest.

Reply Quote

Date: 3/09/2020 16:12:07
From: Cymek
ID: 1614048
Subject: re: Sunni, shiite, ISIS, Hussain, Taliban, Khomeini?

mollwollfumble said:


Thanks roughbarked, I’m starting to read through all those now.

> Since about 90% of Muslims are Sunni

I didn’t know that.

> Shiite Muslims complete all five daily ritual prayers but squeeze them into three sessions instead of five.

That hardly seems like a basis for war. You say “leadership” rather than “religion”. I’ll have to think about that.

> enduring hue of sadness over Shiite Muslims. They live in mourning, wearing black most of the year.

(Shakes head in wonder.)

> Iran’s Islamic revolution, which brought Shias to power in 1979, and the Sunni backlash have fueled a competition for regional dominance.

So, minority rule. That can be a big cause for war.

> (ISIS) portrays itself as defenders of Sunni Islam in sectarian wars against governments led by Shi’ite Muslims.

So that’s a backlash against minority rule, too. Directly opposite to the grab for power by minority leader Khomeini.

> “They (Islamic State) are fine. They leave you alone unless you fight them”

That is definitely not what the TV documentary I saw said. There were first hand accounts on the program of ISIS killing children and pets.

> Yes. It basically comes down to the fact that sharing is becoming less of an apparent viable option. Due to overpopulation and … increased desertification and nutrient starvation … which in turn makes refugees of the indigenes.

I don’t think the wars in the Arab world are becoming more, or less. Perhaps bigger in scale. The situation now is remarkably similar to that described by Richard Burton in his book “Personal Narrative of a Pilgrimage to El-Medinah and Meccah” (1855-56).

I’m not quite sure how “https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Game” ties in with all of this. The cold war between Russia and Britain in the middle east. But it began in 1830 and continues to the present day.

I’m still to read the rest.

They endure these religious eventually becoming Zensunni and Zenshi’ite

Reply Quote

Date: 3/09/2020 16:35:49
From: dv
ID: 1614052
Subject: re: Sunni, shiite, ISIS, Hussain, Taliban, Khomeini?

Note that there isn’t a war between Shia and Sunni generally, and hasn’t been an ongoing war for 1400 years, so your first question kind if assumes incorrect data.

Reply Quote

Date: 4/09/2020 05:48:28
From: roughbarked
ID: 1614304
Subject: re: Sunni, shiite, ISIS, Hussain, Taliban, Khomeini?

dv said:


Note that there isn’t a war between Shia and Sunni generally, and hasn’t been an ongoing war for 1400 years, so your first question kind if assumes incorrect data.

Yes. There is a lot that is assumed.

Reply Quote

Date: 4/09/2020 06:42:43
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1614307
Subject: re: Sunni, shiite, ISIS, Hussain, Taliban, Khomeini?

roughbarked said:


dv said:

Note that there isn’t a war between Shia and Sunni generally, and hasn’t been an ongoing war for 1400 years, so your first question kind if assumes incorrect data.

Yes. There is a lot that is assumed.

Sure. I’m totally ignorant about the issue. Just sort of, well, if being a Shiite in Sunni territory will get you killed in 1855 …

Reply Quote

Date: 4/09/2020 06:47:26
From: roughbarked
ID: 1614309
Subject: re: Sunni, shiite, ISIS, Hussain, Taliban, Khomeini?

mollwollfumble said:


roughbarked said:

dv said:

Note that there isn’t a war between Shia and Sunni generally, and hasn’t been an ongoing war for 1400 years, so your first question kind if assumes incorrect data.

Yes. There is a lot that is assumed.

Sure. I’m totally ignorant about the issue. Just sort of, well, if being a Shiite in Sunni territory will get you killed in 1855 …

Being a descendant of African slaves in America gets you shot while out walking. In 2020.

Reply Quote

Date: 4/09/2020 06:48:24
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1614310
Subject: re: Sunni, shiite, ISIS, Hussain, Taliban, Khomeini?

roughbarked said:


mollwollfumble said:

roughbarked said:

Yes. There is a lot that is assumed.

Sure. I’m totally ignorant about the issue. Just sort of, well, if being a Shiite in Sunni territory will get you killed in 1855 …

Being a descendant of African slaves in America gets you shot while out walking. In 2020.

Exactly. An the situation is going to stay the same until all white people are dead.

Reply Quote

Date: 4/09/2020 09:59:34
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1614332
Subject: re: Sunni, shiite, ISIS, Hussain, Taliban, Khomeini?

mollwollfumble said:


roughbarked said:

mollwollfumble said:

Sure. I’m totally ignorant about the issue. Just sort of, well, if being a Shiite in Sunni territory will get you killed in 1855 …

Being a descendant of African slaves in America gets you shot while out walking. In 2020.

Exactly. An the situation is going to stay the same until all white people are dead.

I doubt that it is true.

Reply Quote

Date: 4/09/2020 10:08:46
From: Cymek
ID: 1614335
Subject: re: Sunni, shiite, ISIS, Hussain, Taliban, Khomeini?

mollwollfumble said:


roughbarked said:

mollwollfumble said:

Sure. I’m totally ignorant about the issue. Just sort of, well, if being a Shiite in Sunni territory will get you killed in 1855 …

Being a descendant of African slaves in America gets you shot while out walking. In 2020.

Exactly. An the situation is going to stay the same until all white people are dead.

I’ve been watching a couple of tv shows set during segregation times and whilst they are fiction the attitudes and actions of the white people would be based on the reality of the time.
What I’ve wondered though was surely not all white people thought like that and were appalled.
Has a quick search but couldn’t find anything on white people supporting the black power movement assuming they’d be welcome or trusted being fair enough

Reply Quote

Date: 4/09/2020 11:19:51
From: dv
ID: 1614363
Subject: re: Sunni, shiite, ISIS, Hussain, Taliban, Khomeini?

mollwollfumble said:


roughbarked said:

dv said:

Note that there isn’t a war between Shia and Sunni generally, and hasn’t been an ongoing war for 1400 years, so your first question kind if assumes incorrect data.

Yes. There is a lot that is assumed.

Sure. I’m totally ignorant about the issue. Just sort of, well, if being a Shiite in Sunni territory will get you killed in 1855 …

Mostly, not. Sunnis and Shias mostly share territory. In the Arab world, usually one sect is politically and numerically dominant, but a) it doesn’t mean you get killed and b) only about 15% of Muslims are in the Arab world.

Reply Quote

Date: 4/09/2020 21:20:25
From: wookiemeister
ID: 1614660
Subject: re: Sunni, shiite, ISIS, Hussain, Taliban, Khomeini?

https://youtu.be/e266JghQMIk
Islam: The Untold Story Full Documentary In English

Reply Quote

Date: 4/09/2020 21:22:57
From: wookiemeister
ID: 1614661
Subject: re: Sunni, shiite, ISIS, Hussain, Taliban, Khomeini?

How Muhammad Ali Was Deceived by Islam (and Why Cassius Clay Was His Greatest Name)
https://youtu.be/sxOM4GrqElw

Reply Quote

Date: 4/09/2020 21:24:43
From: wookiemeister
ID: 1614662
Subject: re: Sunni, shiite, ISIS, Hussain, Taliban, Khomeini?

Is Mecca In The Wrong Place? (Global Documentary) | Real Stories
https://youtu.be/0CavacGECZ0

Reply Quote

Date: 4/09/2020 21:24:55
From: Witty Rejoinder
ID: 1614663
Subject: re: Sunni, shiite, ISIS, Hussain, Taliban, Khomeini?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam:_The_Untold_Story

Reply Quote

Date: 4/09/2020 21:30:47
From: wookiemeister
ID: 1614664
Subject: re: Sunni, shiite, ISIS, Hussain, Taliban, Khomeini?

Witty Rejoinder said:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam:_The_Untold_Story

its a fascinating documentary

the direction of the real mecca points to somewhere very well known

Reply Quote

Date: 31/07/2023 10:03:47
From: roughbarked
ID: 2059968
Subject: re: Sunni, shiite, ISIS, Hussain, Taliban, Khomeini?

Another stated that Holland was a “fool” for suggesting Islam was a “made-up religion”

> As a matter of fact, they(religions) are all “made-up”.

Reply Quote

Date: 31/07/2023 10:04:20
From: SCIENCE
ID: 2059971
Subject: re: Sunni, shiite, ISIS, Hussain, Taliban, Khomeini?

roughbarked said:

Another stated that Holland was a “fool” for suggesting Islam was a “made-up religion”

> As a matter of fact, they(religions) are all “made-up”.

Fine.

Reply Quote

Date: 31/07/2023 10:08:42
From: roughbarked
ID: 2059974
Subject: re: Sunni, shiite, ISIS, Hussain, Taliban, Khomeini?

SCIENCE said:

roughbarked said:

Another stated that Holland was a “fool” for suggesting Islam was a “made-up religion”

> As a matter of fact, they(religions) are all “made-up”.

Fine.

I was looking for a thread that mentioned the Taliban and this was the only one with it in the title.

You see; Taliban authorities destroy dozens of instruments and equipment, saying music causes moral corruption and playing it will cause the youth to go astray

Reply Quote

Date: 31/07/2023 10:14:32
From: Cymek
ID: 2059975
Subject: re: Sunni, shiite, ISIS, Hussain, Taliban, Khomeini?

roughbarked said:


SCIENCE said:

roughbarked said:

Another stated that Holland was a “fool” for suggesting Islam was a “made-up religion”

> As a matter of fact, they(religions) are all “made-up”.

Fine.

I was looking for a thread that mentioned the Taliban and this was the only one with it in the title.

You see; Taliban authorities destroy dozens of instruments and equipment, saying music causes moral corruption and playing it will cause the youth to go astray


I wonder if the Taliban have stand up comedians

Standard issue Taliban person “Have you heard the one about Mohammed ?, you better not have or I’ll kill you”

Reply Quote

Date: 31/07/2023 10:14:52
From: SCIENCE
ID: 2059976
Subject: re: Sunni, shiite, ISIS, Hussain, Taliban, Khomeini?

roughbarked said:

SCIENCE said:

roughbarked said:

Another stated that Holland was a “fool” for suggesting Islam was a “made-up religion”

> As a matter of fact, they(religions) are all “made-up”.

Fine.

I was looking for a thread that mentioned the Taliban and this was the only one with it in the title.

You see; Taliban authorities destroy dozens of instruments and equipment, saying music causes moral corruption and playing it will cause the youth to go astray


We think there’s an Afghanistan thread or more out there but anyway, at least they’re not burning books, that never ends well, they’re not burning books so it’s all good¡

Reply Quote

Date: 31/07/2023 10:16:11
From: SCIENCE
ID: 2059977
Subject: re: Sunni, shiite, ISIS, Hussain, Taliban, Khomeini?

Cymek said:

I wonder if the Taliban have stand up comedians

Standard issue Taliban person “Have you heard the one about Mohammed ?, you better not have or I’ll kill you”

Stand down¡ Stand down¡

Reply Quote

Date: 31/07/2023 13:10:27
From: dv
ID: 2060002
Subject: re: Sunni, shiite, ISIS, Hussain, Taliban, Khomeini?

It’s not true that the schism has led to a war that has lasted 1400 years.

Reply Quote

Date: 31/07/2023 13:15:42
From: Cymek
ID: 2060003
Subject: re: Sunni, shiite, ISIS, Hussain, Taliban, Khomeini?

dv said:


It’s not true that the schism has led to a war that has lasted 1400 years.

When fans of a galaxy far, far away and a long time ago met fans of our galaxy in the future conflict arises

Which make believe story is correct and will fans of these shows splinter off due to disagree of which series is the best, or are the prequels, originals or sequels the best

Star Wars Star Trek Wars

Reply Quote

Date: 31/07/2023 13:34:19
From: Ian
ID: 2060006
Subject: re: Sunni, shiite, ISIS, Hussain, Taliban, Khomeini?

Interesting that Muslims believe that the Quran to be not simply divinely inspired, but the literal word of God as revealed to Muhammad. Big M did not write it as he was illiterate.

In Muslim theology, the Qur’an is considered to be either “created” or “uncreated”. According to tradition, several of Muhammad’s companions served as scribes, recording the revelations. Shortly after the prophet’s death, the Quran was compiled by the companions, who had written down or memorized parts of it.

They’re very touchy about their book.

Reply Quote

Date: 31/07/2023 14:10:52
From: roughbarked
ID: 2060013
Subject: re: Sunni, shiite, ISIS, Hussain, Taliban, Khomeini?

Ian said:


Interesting that Muslims believe that the Quran to be not simply divinely inspired, but the literal word of God as revealed to Muhammad. Big M did not write it as he was illiterate.

In Muslim theology, the Qur’an is considered to be either “created” or “uncreated”. According to tradition, several of Muhammad’s companions served as scribes, recording the revelations. Shortly after the prophet’s death, the Quran was compiled by the companions, who had written down or memorized parts of it.

They’re very touchy about their book.

Yeah. I hope those ones are not watching.

Reply Quote

Date: 31/07/2023 14:23:41
From: dv
ID: 2060015
Subject: re: Sunni, shiite, ISIS, Hussain, Taliban, Khomeini?

mollwollfumble said:


Asking here out of complete ignorance.

Watched a good SBS program right now that turned what I thought I knew about ISIS and Iraq completely on its head. So I need to start again totally from scratch.

  • What is the difference between the Sunni and Shiite religions and why has it led to a religious war that has lasted more than 1,400 years?
  • How do ISIS, Hussain, Taliban, Khomeini, Gadaffi, etc. tie into the Sunni-Shiite divide?
  • The loss of the Iraqi marshes under Hussin. Part of an anti-malaria initiative, part of a Sunni-Shiite war, or both?
  • The program said that all the ISIS fighters are foreigners, from Russia, US, Britain, Australia, Chechnya, Europe, etc.
  • Got a potted history of Sunni vs Shiite through the ages?
  • Is it much more subtle than that?

There’s a lot here but the key news is that there hasn’t been a long war between Shia and Sunni. These esoteric scriptural differences have sometimes been important ethnic identifiers but mostly it has not mattered and alliances existed between some Shia and Sunni nations against other alliances of Shia and zsunni nations, and to focus on the religious divide is to obscure the fact that most of the conflicts in the Muslim world have been the same old conflicts over territory and resources as occur anywhere. It would be akin to regarding the intermittent conflicts between Russia and Germany as a battle between Orrhodoxy and Protestantism.
The second important point, and one not widely acknowledged, is that the Muslim world has been a peaceful place compared to Europe: between 1280 and 1945 there was literally not a 40 year period without bloody conflict between major European powers.

Gadaffi and Saddam Hussein were secularists and religion wasn’t important to them or their governments.

Isis is predominantly Sunni, and most of its fighters were drawn from Iraq and Syria, but plenty from elsewhere.

Reply Quote

Date: 31/07/2023 14:24:58
From: roughbarked
ID: 2060016
Subject: re: Sunni, shiite, ISIS, Hussain, Taliban, Khomeini?

dv said:


mollwollfumble said:

Asking here out of complete ignorance.

Watched a good SBS program right now that turned what I thought I knew about ISIS and Iraq completely on its head. So I need to start again totally from scratch.

  • What is the difference between the Sunni and Shiite religions and why has it led to a religious war that has lasted more than 1,400 years?
  • How do ISIS, Hussain, Taliban, Khomeini, Gadaffi, etc. tie into the Sunni-Shiite divide?
  • The loss of the Iraqi marshes under Hussin. Part of an anti-malaria initiative, part of a Sunni-Shiite war, or both?
  • The program said that all the ISIS fighters are foreigners, from Russia, US, Britain, Australia, Chechnya, Europe, etc.
  • Got a potted history of Sunni vs Shiite through the ages?
  • Is it much more subtle than that?

There’s a lot here but the key news is that there hasn’t been a long war between Shia and Sunni. These esoteric scriptural differences have sometimes been important ethnic identifiers but mostly it has not mattered and alliances existed between some Shia and Sunni nations against other alliances of Shia and zsunni nations, and to focus on the religious divide is to obscure the fact that most of the conflicts in the Muslim world have been the same old conflicts over territory and resources as occur anywhere. It would be akin to regarding the intermittent conflicts between Russia and Germany as a battle between Orrhodoxy and Protestantism.
The second important point, and one not widely acknowledged, is that the Muslim world has been a peaceful place compared to Europe: between 1280 and 1945 there was literally not a 40 year period without bloody conflict between major European powers.

Gadaffi and Saddam Hussein were secularists and religion wasn’t important to them or their governments.

Isis is predominantly Sunni, and most of its fighters were drawn from Iraq and Syria, but plenty from elsewhere.

Often people of Sunni descent drom England and Australia and Belgium, etc.

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