We have feral goats, horses, cattle, camels, pigs, dogs, cats, rabbits, deer in Australia.
How come there are zero feral sheep? Are they just so damned docile that they never stray? Are there wild sheep anywhere?
Anecdote:
My dad had 200 acres in Turondale (out past Bathurst, NSW) when I was a kid. A local guy let his god-knows-how-many sheep wander through everyone’s land. If you didn’t have a fence, it was an unspoken agreement that his sheep were allowed on your land. He must have had thousands of sheep.
They saw people maybe once a month or less. Once a year he’d round up different groups for shearing (IIRC). They weren’t feral. Completely docile. We caught a couple just to see if we could. One was nicknamed Scungebag because it was so ragged-looking.
It does happen occasionally.
The “Monster Fleece” sheep. I think recently some were discovered in WA, and I recall one in Tassie.
dv said:
We have feral goats, horses, cattle, camels, pigs, dogs, cats, rabbits, deer in Australia.How come there are zero feral sheep? Are they just so damned docile that they never stray? Are there wild sheep anywhere?
Have you heard of One Nation supporters?
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-20/feral-sheep-shorn-first-time-in-years-after-spotted-near-beach/12165444
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-16/prickles-the-sheep-found-seven-years-after-fleeing-dunalley-fire/12150052
dv said:
We have feral goats, horses, cattle, camels, pigs, dogs, cats, rabbits, deer in Australia.How come there are zero feral sheep? Are they just so damned docile that they never stray? Are there wild sheep anywhere?
Periodically people find sheep in very full wool who have been wandering unattended for years.
I see people are ahead of me.
I should go and get on with the outside work before it gets too warm for me. And the bakery has requested some lemons, so I’ll get the ladder out and pick some to take down this afternoon.
Rule 303 said:
dv said:
We have feral goats, horses, cattle, camels, pigs, dogs, cats, rabbits, deer in Australia.How come there are zero feral sheep? Are they just so damned docile that they never stray? Are there wild sheep anywhere?
Have you heard of One Nation supporters?
LOL
Rule 303 said:
dv said:
We have feral goats, horses, cattle, camels, pigs, dogs, cats, rabbits, deer in Australia.How come there are zero feral sheep? Are they just so damned docile that they never stray? Are there wild sheep anywhere?
Have you heard of One Nation supporters?
Humorous
dv said:
We have feral goats, horses, cattle, camels, pigs, dogs, cats, rabbits, deer in Australia.How come there are zero feral sheep? Are they just so damned docile that they never stray? Are there wild sheep anywhere?
typical sheep, like merino (even cross breed lambs, say suffolk x) require tailing (better off with it removed) when young, and regular crutching and shearing, otherwise they tend to get flystruck and die from maggots and whatever else associated with that, dehydration etc
they make a good feed too, so get seen as a meal, and left to die naturally are a wasted meal
basically sheep have been bred such that many (most) require regular interventions of care
give you an idea how bad, the amount of care required, I spotted some behavior in a mob of suffolk/merino lambs once that was suspect, got them in and an inspection showed ~25% of the mob had early crotch flystrike, required the entire mob be quickly jetted
rams can get struck around the head (horns etc) too, that doesn’t end well untreated
these days there are good preventative treatments, for fly strike
So there are all kinds of wild sheep in Asia, Europe and the Americas but these are separate species and none of them have been introduced to Australia.
The domestic sheep is completely interbreedable with the Mouflon and is sometimes treated as the same species: it is thought that all domestic sheep breeds derive from the mouflon, much as domestic dogs derive from the wolf.
of longer wool sheep, and denser wool sheep, selectively bred by humans
there’s shit, piss, grease, possibility of various skin infections, all these attract flies, they get fly struck, so it’s a good thing if there aren’t sheep running around wild, means they are probably getting looked after
shorn once a year maybe, crutched couple times at ideal times of year, fly strike treatments, lice treatments, whatever’s needed, regular worm treatments
take missy for example, she’s got a tail, worst thing ever, should have been removed when little, gets pissy and poo, can’t raise it properly clear of those things
there’s wool blindness, sheep can hardly see when grows too long around the eyes
of lice treatments, applies of flystrike prevention also, and worm treatments, the best result is had when the entire flock is done and none are missed, of say lice, a good example, only takes one to return to the mob later(or neighbors) and you get lice again, so there’s a logic in getting them all done, every one of them, and not letting them fraternize with the neighbors, or go feral
what about feral chickens, not too many of them either
SCIENCE said:
what about feral chickens, not too many of them either
There are plenty of feral chickens. They’re a problem in some parts of Tasmania.
Bubblecar said:
SCIENCE said:
what about feral chickens, not too many of them either
There are plenty of feral chickens. They’re a problem in some parts of Tasmania.
according to thread paradigm you’re meant to say “no there are plenty of Labor politicians” or something along those lines
As transition says, they don’t tend to thrive as true ferals. But there are always some “lost” sheep around.
People might recall that when I was first moved to this village there was a sheep living by itself on the cottage property I rented. Nobody seemed to know who it belonged to and it was obviously lonely, so I eventually chucked it over the fence.
Bubblecar said:
As transition says, they don’t tend to thrive as true ferals. But there are always some “lost” sheep around.People might recall that when I was first moved to this village there was a sheep living by itself on the cottage property I rented. Nobody seemed to know who it belonged to and it was obviously lonely, so I eventually chucked it over the fence.
Would’ve made many good meals.
when I was first moved to this village = when I first moved to this village
I wasn’t actually evacuated here against my will :)
Bubblecar said:
As transition says, they don’t tend to thrive as true ferals. But there are always some “lost” sheep around.People might recall that when I was first moved to this village there was a sheep living by itself on the cottage property I rented. Nobody seemed to know who it belonged to and it was obviously lonely, so I eventually chucked it over the fence.
It is kind of cruel, really … breeding up these sheep that need to be shorn, cows that need to be milked. If they were humans they could file a “wrongful life” suit.
Bubblecar said:
when I was first moved to this village = when I first moved to this villageI wasn’t actually evacuated here against my will :)
We got your secret message and the extraction team will be sent soon.
dv said:
Bubblecar said:
As transition says, they don’t tend to thrive as true ferals. But there are always some “lost” sheep around.People might recall that when I was first moved to this village there was a sheep living by itself on the cottage property I rented. Nobody seemed to know who it belonged to and it was obviously lonely, so I eventually chucked it over the fence.
It is kind of cruel, really … breeding up these sheep that need to be shorn, cows that need to be milked. If they were humans they could file a “wrongful life” suit.
most sheep live a very happy life, I can report
transition said:
dv said:
Bubblecar said:
As transition says, they don’t tend to thrive as true ferals. But there are always some “lost” sheep around.People might recall that when I was first moved to this village there was a sheep living by itself on the cottage property I rented. Nobody seemed to know who it belonged to and it was obviously lonely, so I eventually chucked it over the fence.
It is kind of cruel, really … breeding up these sheep that need to be shorn, cows that need to be milked. If they were humans they could file a “wrongful life” suit.
most sheep live a very happy life, I can report
A sheep that had no wool saw horses, one of them pulling a heavy wagon, one carrying a big load, and one carrying a man quickly. The sheep said to the horses: “My heart pains me, seeing a man driving horses.” The horses said: “Listen, sheep, our hearts pain us when we see this: a man, the master, makes the wool of the sheep into a warm garment for himself. And the sheep has no wool.” Having heard this, the sheep fled into the plain.
dv said:
transition said:
dv said:It is kind of cruel, really … breeding up these sheep that need to be shorn, cows that need to be milked. If they were humans they could file a “wrongful life” suit.
most sheep live a very happy life, I can report
A sheep that had no wool saw horses, one of them pulling a heavy wagon, one carrying a big load, and one carrying a man quickly. The sheep said to the horses: “My heart pains me, seeing a man driving horses.” The horses said: “Listen, sheep, our hearts pain us when we see this: a man, the master, makes the wool of the sheep into a warm garment for himself. And the sheep has no wool.” Having heard this, the sheep fled into the plain.
Or as some would say:
Avis, jasmin varnā na ā ast, dadarka akvams, tam, vāgham garum vaghantam, tam, bhāram magham, tam, manum āku bharantam. Avis akvabhjams ā vavakat: kard aghnutai mai vidanti manum akvams agantam.
Akvāsas ā vavakant: krudhi avai, kard aghnutai vividvant-svas: manus patis varnām avisāms karnauti svabhjam gharmam vastram avibhjams ka varnā na asti.
Tat kukruvants avis agram ā bhugat.
dv said:
Bubblecar said:
As transition says, they don’t tend to thrive as true ferals. But there are always some “lost” sheep around.People might recall that when I was first moved to this village there was a sheep living by itself on the cottage property I rented. Nobody seemed to know who it belonged to and it was obviously lonely, so I eventually chucked it over the fence.
It is kind of cruel, really … breeding up these sheep that need to be shorn, cows that need to be milked. If they were humans they could file a “wrongful life” suit.
I think you will find that cows don’t produce milk unless they have calved, in which case the milk is taken care of if they are not milked by humans.
buffy said:
dv said:
Bubblecar said:
As transition says, they don’t tend to thrive as true ferals. But there are always some “lost” sheep around.People might recall that when I was first moved to this village there was a sheep living by itself on the cottage property I rented. Nobody seemed to know who it belonged to and it was obviously lonely, so I eventually chucked it over the fence.
It is kind of cruel, really … breeding up these sheep that need to be shorn, cows that need to be milked. If they were humans they could file a “wrongful life” suit.
I think you will find that cows don’t produce milk unless they have calved, in which case the milk is taken care of if they are not milked by humans.
Dairy cows produce more milk than a calf can drink… fun fact
buffy said:
dv said:
Bubblecar said:
As transition says, they don’t tend to thrive as true ferals. But there are always some “lost” sheep around.People might recall that when I was first moved to this village there was a sheep living by itself on the cottage property I rented. Nobody seemed to know who it belonged to and it was obviously lonely, so I eventually chucked it over the fence.
It is kind of cruel, really … breeding up these sheep that need to be shorn, cows that need to be milked. If they were humans they could file a “wrongful life” suit.
I think you will find that cows don’t produce milk unless they have calved, in which case the milk is taken care of if they are not milked by humans.
Although there are cows that produce so much milk that they go down with milk fever.
breeding is highly managed with sheep flocks also, starting with castration when young, so a wild population needs males, and regard breeding rams they are highly managed, worth anything from a few hundred dollars to many thousands, they only get put in with ewes for limited period, seasonal considerations, and so lambs drop in a limited period, some uniformity
they like water too, especially when warms up and no or limited green feed, they prefer clean water also, to drink properly. They get broken wool when stressed out, meat’s not as good, if for eating. Of course they can die also, though merinos tough as
when checking the troughs often check ones not meant to be in use looking for tracks, indications of strays, or ones left behind, or fence or gate down or open, keep those troughs good enough to drink
sheep do better if they don’t need walk too far for a drink, say in the situation of marginal feed, which tends to get eaten off nearer the water sooner, they are quite reliable coming to water, or finding it, tend to be visible when do
in cropped areas people always look out for sheep in crop, don’t want them eating that
and of sheep that might get onto roads, stock of course on roads are a hazard, so there’s some activity reporting that sort of thing, and attention to things that limit the likelihood
There are plenty of stories of sheep who got away in the early days of colonisation.
Mostly, the stories end badly for the sheep. An entire flock dying from drinking salt water. Or not being smart enough to run away from flood water. Or eating something poisonous.
buffy said:
dv said:
We have feral goats, horses, cattle, camels, pigs, dogs, cats, rabbits, deer in Australia.How come there are zero feral sheep? Are they just so damned docile that they never stray? Are there wild sheep anywhere?
Periodically people find sheep in very full wool who have been wandering unattended for years.
this^
monkey skipper said:
buffy said:
dv said:
We have feral goats, horses, cattle, camels, pigs, dogs, cats, rabbits, deer in Australia.How come there are zero feral sheep? Are they just so damned docile that they never stray? Are there wild sheep anywhere?
Periodically people find sheep in very full wool who have been wandering unattended for years.
this^
They generally die fairly easily without constant attention so there’s that too.
poikilotherm said:
monkey skipper said:
buffy said:Periodically people find sheep in very full wool who have been wandering unattended for years.
this^
They generally die fairly easily without constant attention so there’s that too.
They’re as dumb as shit. No apparent sense of self-preservation. They’re the only animal I’ve ever seen not walk up hill to escape rising floodwaters.
poikilotherm said:
monkey skipper said:
buffy said:Periodically people find sheep in very full wool who have been wandering unattended for years.
this^
They generally die fairly easily without constant attention so there’s that too.
For live stock sheep are extremely high maintenance and not being an indigenous species doesn’t work in their favour , the way they graze , being prone to being fly blown , bloats (not limited to sheep though) and their wool and I am sure the list grows.
There is that desert sheep which has a goat like coat and a paddle like tail that is ideal for our climate but suits the meat trade and maybe leather because they don’t have wool as such. I digress but I can see the desert type may become feral as they are naturally more adapted to Australian conditions especially in drought regions.
This is an interesting looking hybrid
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorper
The Dorper is a South African breed of domestic sheep developed by crossing Dorset Horn and the Blackhead Persian sheep. The breed was created through the efforts of the South African Department of Agriculture to breed a meat sheep suitable to the more arid regions of the country. It is now farmed in other areas as well, and is the second most common sheep breed in South Africa.[1
Rule 303 said:
poikilotherm said:
monkey skipper said:this^
They generally die fairly easily without constant attention so there’s that too.
They’re as dumb as shit. No apparent sense of self-preservation. They’re the only animal I’ve ever seen not walk up hill to escape rising floodwaters.
consider if humans had been selectively breeding sheep for intelligence
there’s a comprehensive philosophy lesson in studying that proposition alone, which few humans would venture
monkey skipper said:
This is an interesting looking hybrid
wild dog food in a few days.
transition said:
Rule 303 said:
poikilotherm said:They generally die fairly easily without constant attention so there’s that too.
They’re as dumb as shit. No apparent sense of self-preservation. They’re the only animal I’ve ever seen not walk up hill to escape rising floodwaters.
consider if humans had been selectively breeding sheep for intelligence
there’s a comprehensive philosophy lesson in studying that proposition alone, which few humans would venture
No one wants smart food.
poikilotherm said:
transition said:
Rule 303 said:They’re as dumb as shit. No apparent sense of self-preservation. They’re the only animal I’ve ever seen not walk up hill to escape rising floodwaters.
consider if humans had been selectively breeding sheep for intelligence
there’s a comprehensive philosophy lesson in studying that proposition alone, which few humans would venture
No one wants smart food.
The Japanese and Norwegians disagree.
transition said:
Rule 303 said:
poikilotherm said:They generally die fairly easily without constant attention so there’s that too.
They’re as dumb as shit. No apparent sense of self-preservation. They’re the only animal I’ve ever seen not walk up hill to escape rising floodwaters.
consider if humans had been selectively breeding sheep for intelligence
there’s a comprehensive philosophy lesson in studying that proposition alone, which few humans would venture
csiro spear headed select breeding for the dennier suitable for couture and under garments in Australia ..smart considering how coarse all sheep fibres tended to be and therefore not considered viable for the textile trade due to the prickle factor which was turned around by their focus on the value adding opportunities at that time of the big wool stockpile we had back then.
Rule 303 said:
poikilotherm said:
monkey skipper said:this^
They generally die fairly easily without constant attention so there’s that too.
They’re as dumb as shit. No apparent sense of self-preservation. They’re the only animal I’ve ever seen not walk up hill to escape rising floodwaters.
they are very good at using us to further their genes.
sibeen said:
poikilotherm said:
transition said:consider if humans had been selectively breeding sheep for intelligence
there’s a comprehensive philosophy lesson in studying that proposition alone, which few humans would venture
No one wants smart food.
The Japanese and Norwegians disagree.
Can’t help bad taste.
Bogsnorkler said:
Rule 303 said:
poikilotherm said:They generally die fairly easily without constant attention so there’s that too.
They’re as dumb as shit. No apparent sense of self-preservation. They’re the only animal I’ve ever seen not walk up hill to escape rising floodwaters.
they are very good at using us to further their genes.
and I might add not a dumb as us humans going “over the top” to charge machine guns.
:-)
anyway I don’t agree sheep are that dumb, in fact I haven’t thought of sheep that way for a long time, generalized about them that way
compared to some examples of the dominant species on the planet, they seem, well, innocuous might be an appropriate word
Large brains would be wasted on animals that are doomed to spend most of their time eating grass.
Mind you, there are humans who don’t do much more than that.
History of the domestic sheep
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The history of the domestic sheep goes back to between 11000 and 9000 BCE, and the domestication of the wild mouflon in ancient Mesopotamia. Sheep are among the first animals to have been domesticated by humans, and there is evidence of sheep farming in Iranian statuary dating to that time period.
These sheep were primarily raised for meat, milk, and skins. Woolly sheep began to be developed around 6000 BCE in Iran, and cultures such as the Persians relied on sheep’s wool for trading. They were then imported to Africa and Europe via trading
The exact line of descent between domestic sheep and their wild ancestors is unclear. The most common hypothesis states that Ovis aries is descended from the Asiatic (O. orientalis) species of mouflon.:5 A few breeds of sheep, such as the Castlemilk Moorit from Scotland, were formed through crossbreeding with wild European mouflon.
The urial (O. vignei) was once thought to have been a forebear of domestic sheep, as they occasionally interbreed with mouflon in the Iranian part of their range.:6 However, the urial, argali (O. ammon), and snow sheep (O. nivicola) have a different number of chromosomes than other Ovis species, making a direct relationship implausible, and phylogenetic studies show no evidence of urial ancestry. Further studies comparing European and Asian breeds of sheep showed significant genetic differences between the two. Two explanations for this phenomenon have been posited. The first explanation is that a currently unknown species or subspecies of wild sheep that contributed to the formation of domestic sheep. The second explanation is that this variation is the result of multiple waves of capture from wild mouflon, similar to the known development of other livestock.
One chief difference between ancient sheep and modern breeds is the technique by which wool could be collected. Primitive sheep can be shorn, but many can have their wool plucked out by hand in a process called “rooing”. Rooing helps to leave behind the coarse fibers called kemps which are still longer than the soft fleece. The fleece may also be collected from the field after it falls out naturally. This rooing trait survives today in unrefined breeds such as the Soay and many Shetlands. Indeed, the Soay, along with other Northern European breeds with short tails, naturally rooing fleece, diminutive size, and horns in both sexes, are closely related to ancient sheep. Originally, weaving and spinning wool was a handicraft practiced at home, rather than an industry. Babylonians, Sumerians, and Persians all depended on sheep; and although linen was the first fabric to be fashioned in to clothing, wool was a prized product. The raising of flocks for their fleece was one of the earliest industries, and flocks were a medium of exchange in barter economies. Numerous biblical figures kept large flocks, and subjects of the king of Judea were taxed according to the number of rams they owned.:7
In Asia
Domestication
Sheep were among the first animals to be domesticated by humans (although the domestication of dogs may be over 20,000 years earlier); the domestication date is estimated to fall between 11,000 and 8,000 B.C in Mesopotamia.:4:11–14:2 or possibly Mehrgarh in South asia around 7th millennium BC which happened independently. Their wild relatives have several characteristics, such as a relative lack of aggression, a manageable size, early sexual maturity, a social nature, and high reproduction rates, which made them particularly suitable for domestication.:78–80 Today, Ovis aries is an entirely domesticated animal that is largely dependent on humans for its health and survival.:167 Feral sheep do exist, but exclusively in areas devoid of large predators (usually islands) and not on the scale of feral horses, goats, pigs, or dogs, although some feral populations have remained isolated long enough to be recognized as distinct breeds.:75
The rearing of sheep for secondary products, and the resulting breed development, began in either southwest Asia or western Europe. Initially, sheep were kept solely for meat, milk and skins. Archaeological evidence from statuary found at sites in Iran suggests that selection for woolly sheep may have begun around 6000 BCE,:5:11 and the earliest woven wool garments have been dated to two to three thousand years later.:8 Before this, when a sheep was slaughtered for its meat, the hide would be tanned and worn as a kind of tunic. Researchers believe that the development of such clothing encouraged humans to live in areas far colder than the Fertile Crescent, where temperatures averaged 70 °F (21 °C). Sheep molars and bones found at Çatalhöyük suggest that populations of domestic sheep may have been established in the area. By that span of the Bronze Age, sheep with all the major features of modern breeds were widespread throughout Western Asia.:6
The residents of the ancient settlement of Jeitun, which dates to 6000 BCE, kept sheep and goats as their primary livestock. There have also been numerous identifications of Nomadic pastoralism in archaeological sites, identified by a prevalence of sheep and goat bones, a lack of grain or grain-processing equipment, very limited architecture showing a set of characteristic traits, a location outside the region’s zone of agriculture, and ethnographic analogy to modern nomadic pastoral peoples.
more in the article—————————
Bubblecar said:
Large brains would be wasted on animals that are doomed to spend most of their time eating grass.Mind you, there are humans who don’t do much more than that.
Don’t forget Elephants. They cull Acacia bushes to encourage their favourite food grass to grow.
Bubblecar said:
Large brains would be wasted on animals that are doomed to spend most of their time eating grass.Mind you, there are humans who don’t do much more than that.
it’s not a bad life out there in the paddock grazing (for a well-looked after sheep), is my impression, if they have adequate food and water, some shade too on hot days, and scrub to get out of the wind
i’ve seen a lot of contented sheep in my time
they are not burdened with the sort of consciousness humans have, well, that of the latter’s quite varied, but sheep don’t have the cognitive spread of humans, the variability, there’s not the wonderful array of mind tools, a whole lot less to go wrong, and a whole lot less to get wrong
Bubblecar said:
sarahs mum said:
Bubblecar said:
I’d be very wary of the one in the tartan colours. He’ll eye you off, call you Jimmy and then headbutt you.
Now I’m well aware that the one in the tartan colours may in fact be female. The same shit still applies.
sibeen said:
sarahs mum said:
Bubblecar said:
I’d be very wary of the one in the tartan colours. He’ll eye you off, call you Jimmy and then headbutt you.
Now I’m well aware that the one in the tartan colours may in fact be female. The same shit still applies.
I met a guard ram once. He attacked the car before we got out.So we didn’t get out until the owner locked him up.
sarahs mum said:
sibeen said:
sarahs mum said:
I’d be very wary of the one in the tartan colours. He’ll eye you off, call you Jimmy and then headbutt you.
Now I’m well aware that the one in the tartan colours may in fact be female. The same shit still applies.
I met a guard ram once. He attacked the car before we got out.So we didn’t get out until the owner locked him up.
mollwollfumble said:
sarahs mum said:
sibeen said:I’d be very wary of the one in the tartan colours. He’ll eye you off, call you Jimmy and then headbutt you.
Now I’m well aware that the one in the tartan colours may in fact be female. The same shit still applies.
I met a guard ram once. He attacked the car before we got out.So we didn’t get out until the owner locked him up.
When I was a very young whippersnapper, they stuck me in the race to stop sheep that hadn’t been through the dip from going up there and of course, I was watching the dipping when a giant ram came down the race behind me and butted me headlong into the dip. Haven’t had a single louse on me since.
Bubblecar said:
SCIENCE said:
what about feral chickens, not too many of them either
There are plenty of feral chickens. They’re a problem in some parts of Tasmania.
Kauai is infested with them.
Trevtaowillgetyounowhere said:
Bubblecar said:
SCIENCE said:
what about feral chickens, not too many of them either
There are plenty of feral chickens. They’re a problem in some parts of Tasmania.
Kauai is infested with them.
thanks
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/07/science/in-hawaii-chickens-gone-wild.html
we’ve learnt more today
I saw feral chickens in New Zealand. Not sure how they are faring now, as since then NZ has clamped down heavily on feral species.
