i’d reckon there’s got to be a cognitive tool for recognizing this, something in a cognitive toolbox, for discerning the difference, and variations involving both, or sequences of variations, some brain structures for that sort of thing, instincts for, tuned up by experience of the world of course

there are many others likely, say behind/side of/front of, that sort of thing, for example

back to inside/outside

I can see lots of animals having instincts for inside/outside, numerous examples are going through my head, say a rabbit looking out from the entrance/exit of its warren, checking for dangers, it has instincts for or related inside/outside (mechanisms that do something like that), and consider further a large eagle flying high above, watching the rabbit, the eagle too maybe has brain structures working on the behavior of the rabbit, working on something perhaps to do with the rabbit being inside/outside, perhaps the rabbit is neither or both

anyway a leap now, to Venn diagrams for a moment, and more imagine some shapes, shuffle them around, inside each other, outside, overlapping, whatever

anyway, without going on too much, this thing, these concepts related inside/outside, seem to me to be really important to all sorts of thinking

a thought experiment now, consider a specific cognitive deficit, in or of your self if you can, though it’s maybe easier to imagine someone else has a deficit, so consider you observed such a thing in someone else, what would you see, or not see, what would it look like

would a person be able to function at all, and what might a partial deficit look like

transition said:

i’d reckon there’s got to be a cognitive tool for recognizing this, something in a cognitive toolbox, for discerning the difference, and variations involving both, or sequences of variations, some brain structures for that sort of thing, instincts for, tuned up by experience of the world of course

there are many others likely, say behind/side of/front of, that sort of thing, for example

back to inside/outside

I can see lots of animals having instincts for inside/outside, numerous examples are going through my head, say a rabbit looking out from the entrance/exit of its warren, checking for dangers, it has instincts for or related inside/outside (mechanisms that do something like that), and consider further a large eagle flying high above, watching the rabbit, the eagle too maybe has brain structures working on the behavior of the rabbit, working on something perhaps to do with the rabbit being inside/outside, perhaps the rabbit is neither or both

anyway a leap now, to Venn diagrams for a moment, and more imagine some shapes, shuffle them around, inside each other, outside, overlapping, whatever

anyway, without going on too much, this thing, these concepts related inside/outside, seem to me to be really important to all sorts of thinking

a thought experiment now, consider a specific cognitive deficit, in or of your self if you can, though it’s maybe easier to imagine someone else has a deficit, so consider you observed such a thing in someone else, what would you see, or not see, what would it look like

would a person be able to function at all, and what might a partial deficit look like

psychogeography…the meanings an memories and such of places.
liminality…the threshhold experience. (commonly described by people going to the fridge and opening the door to reveal they have forgotten why they are there.)

sarahs mum said:

transition said:

i’d reckon there’s got to be a cognitive tool for recognizing this, something in a cognitive toolbox, for discerning the difference, and variations involving both, or sequences of variations, some brain structures for that sort of thing, instincts for, tuned up by experience of the world of course

there are many others likely, say behind/side of/front of, that sort of thing, for example

back to inside/outside

I can see lots of animals having instincts for inside/outside, numerous examples are going through my head, say a rabbit looking out from the entrance/exit of its warren, checking for dangers, it has instincts for or related inside/outside (mechanisms that do something like that), and consider further a large eagle flying high above, watching the rabbit, the eagle too maybe has brain structures working on the behavior of the rabbit, working on something perhaps to do with the rabbit being inside/outside, perhaps the rabbit is neither or both

anyway a leap now, to Venn diagrams for a moment, and more imagine some shapes, shuffle them around, inside each other, outside, overlapping, whatever

anyway, without going on too much, this thing, these concepts related inside/outside, seem to me to be really important to all sorts of thinking

a thought experiment now, consider a specific cognitive deficit, in or of your self if you can, though it’s maybe easier to imagine someone else has a deficit, so consider you observed such a thing in someone else, what would you see, or not see, what would it look like

would a person be able to function at all, and what might a partial deficit look like

psychogeography…the meanings an memories and such of places.
liminality…the threshhold experience. (commonly described by people going to the fridge and opening the door to reveal they have forgotten why they are there.)

xkcd has a recent cartoon on this.

> I can see lots of animals having instincts for inside/outside, numerous examples are going through my head

Mosquitoes and flies come to mind. When inside car they want to be outside. And will give up on all other considerations (food, concealment etc.) to do so.

> something perhaps to do with the rabbit being inside/outside, perhaps the rabbit is neither or both
> anyway a leap now, to Venn diagrams for a moment, and more imagine some shapes, shuffle them around, inside each other, outside, overlapping, whatever

Four value logic. Where something isn’t just true or false but may be neither or both. My cartoon about “out”, “neither or both”.

Extending that thought of four value logic to physics.
QM and GR and both true and cannot both be true.
Dark matter exists but no explanation is possible.

> inside/outside … consider a specific cognitive deficit would a person be able to function at all, and what might a partial deficit look like

They would be arrested for undressing in public.

But going back to aboriginal way of life, there would be no problem. Sleep outside, sleep inside, no difference. Eat outside, eat inside, no difference. Sex outside, sex inside, no difference. It could be that the very concept of inside/outside wasn’t even a concept until solid wooden doors were invented. Before that, there would have only been the concept of shady/sunny, and the concept of exposed_to/protected_from enemies.

mollwollfumble said:

sarahs mum said:

transition said:

i’d reckon there’s got to be a cognitive tool for recognizing this, something in a cognitive toolbox, for discerning the difference, and variations involving both, or sequences of variations, some brain structures for that sort of thing, instincts for, tuned up by experience of the world of course

there are many others likely, say behind/side of/front of, that sort of thing, for example

back to inside/outside

I can see lots of animals having instincts for inside/outside, numerous examples are going through my head, say a rabbit looking out from the entrance/exit of its warren, checking for dangers, it has instincts for or related inside/outside (mechanisms that do something like that), and consider further a large eagle flying high above, watching the rabbit, the eagle too maybe has brain structures working on the behavior of the rabbit, working on something perhaps to do with the rabbit being inside/outside, perhaps the rabbit is neither or both

anyway a leap now, to Venn diagrams for a moment, and more imagine some shapes, shuffle them around, inside each other, outside, overlapping, whatever

anyway, without going on too much, this thing, these concepts related inside/outside, seem to me to be really important to all sorts of thinking

a thought experiment now, consider a specific cognitive deficit, in or of your self if you can, though it’s maybe easier to imagine someone else has a deficit, so consider you observed such a thing in someone else, what would you see, or not see, what would it look like

would a person be able to function at all, and what might a partial deficit look like

psychogeography…the meanings an memories and such of places.
liminality…the threshhold experience. (commonly described by people going to the fridge and opening the door to reveal they have forgotten why they are there.)

xkcd has a recent cartoon on this.

> I can see lots of animals having instincts for inside/outside, numerous examples are going through my head

Mosquitoes and flies come to mind. When inside car they want to be outside. And will give up on all other considerations (food, concealment etc.) to do so.

> something perhaps to do with the rabbit being inside/outside, perhaps the rabbit is neither or both
> anyway a leap now, to Venn diagrams for a moment, and more imagine some shapes, shuffle them around, inside each other, outside, overlapping, whatever

Four value logic. Where something isn’t just true or false but may be neither or both. My cartoon about “out”, “neither or both”.

Extending that thought of four value logic to physics.
QM and GR and both true and cannot both be true.
Dark matter exists but no explanation is possible.

> inside/outside … consider a specific cognitive deficit would a person be able to function at all, and what might a partial deficit look like

They would be arrested for undressing in public.

But going back to aboriginal way of life, there would be no problem. Sleep outside, sleep inside, no difference. Eat outside, eat inside, no difference. Sex outside, sex inside, no difference. It could be that the very concept of inside/outside wasn’t even a concept until solid wooden doors were invented. Before that, there would have only been the concept of shady/sunny, and the concept of exposed_to/protected_from enemies.

Silly argument. Mosquitoes are attracted to me when I’m in the car.
Aboriginal people built houses. Stop running the bullshit past us Moll.

She’ll make you take your clothes off and go dancing in the rain
She’ll make you live her crazy life, but she’ll take away your pain
Like a bullet to your brain
Come on!

mollwollfumble said:

Four value logic. Where something isn’t just true or false but may be neither or both. My cartoon about “out”, “neither or both”.

Extending that thought of four value logic to physics.
QM and GR and both true and cannot both be true.
Dark matter exists but no explanation is possible.

I suppose a false quadchotomy is better than a false dichotomy, but we could do better still.

Both QM and QR are neither “true” nor “false”, they are just incomplete.

As for “dark matter”, of course an explanation is possible. We just have to find which of our current assumptions are causing the problem with the explanation, and amend and/or replace them.

Inside outside, leave me alone
Inside outside, nowhere is home
Inside outside, where have I been?
Out of my brain on the five fifteen

Ian said:

Inside outside, leave me alone
Inside outside, nowhere is home
Inside outside, where have I been?
Out of my brain on the five fifteen

Bell Boy.

thinking about a computation apparatus, AI, the prospect of self-aware consciousness, considering if you ran parallel systems (even partially overlapping of process similarities, or perhaps got from bidirectionality), the system to do with position in space etc (location relative to other things), if you ventured making a conscious machine, i’m wondering of the feel of being inside (of the human experience), it seems to me there’s something important about that

probably start with something dumb to explore the idea, the sense, to what extent am I in this forum?, does my head in trying to examine that. I limit the extent i’m in the forum, to the extent I am not, or barely am

of social media platforms, they put a substantial effort into immersiveness of user experience, facilitating it, to put it generously

everyone is immersed in their (own) mental activity I guess, it could be said, but there are variations (capacity for) of the immersion dynamics, if you will, which goes to perspective on ones own mental activity, where a person feels positioned of or within or from their own mental activity, which is doubtful an entirely static thing, to be self-aware conscious

transition said:

thinking about a computation apparatus, AI, the prospect of self-aware consciousness, considering if you ran parallel systems (even partially overlapping of process similarities, or perhaps got from bidirectionality), the system to do with position in space etc (location relative to other things), if you ventured making a conscious machine, i’m wondering of the feel of being inside (of the human experience), it seems to me there’s something important about that

probably start with something dumb to explore the idea, the sense, to what extent am I in this forum?, does my head in trying to examine that. I limit the extent i’m in the forum, to the extent I am not, or barely am

of social media platforms, they put a substantial effort into immersiveness of user experience, facilitating it, to put it generously

everyone is immersed in their (own) mental activity I guess, it could be said, but there are variations (capacity for) of the immersion dynamics, if you will, which goes to perspective on ones own mental activity, where a person feels positioned of or within or from their own mental activity, which is doubtful an entirely static thing, to be self-aware conscious

That’s what they call the hard question of consciousness (if I understand them correctly).

I’m not sure that it has an answer.

The Rev Dodgson said:

transition said:

thinking about a computation apparatus, AI, the prospect of self-aware consciousness, considering if you ran parallel systems (even partially overlapping of process similarities, or perhaps got from bidirectionality), the system to do with position in space etc (location relative to other things), if you ventured making a conscious machine, i’m wondering of the feel of being inside (of the human experience), it seems to me there’s something important about that

probably start with something dumb to explore the idea, the sense, to what extent am I in this forum?, does my head in trying to examine that. I limit the extent i’m in the forum, to the extent I am not, or barely am

of social media platforms, they put a substantial effort into immersiveness of user experience, facilitating it, to put it generously

everyone is immersed in their (own) mental activity I guess, it could be said, but there are variations (capacity for) of the immersion dynamics, if you will, which goes to perspective on ones own mental activity, where a person feels positioned of or within or from their own mental activity, which is doubtful an entirely static thing, to be self-aware conscious

That’s what they call the hard question of consciousness (if I understand them correctly).

I’m not sure that it has an answer.

Not everything that is good needs a reason for being.

roughbarked said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

transition said:

thinking about a computation apparatus, AI, the prospect of self-aware consciousness, considering if you ran parallel systems (even partially overlapping of process similarities, or perhaps got from bidirectionality), the system to do with position in space etc (location relative to other things), if you ventured making a conscious machine, i’m wondering of the feel of being inside (of the human experience), it seems to me there’s something important about that

probably start with something dumb to explore the idea, the sense, to what extent am I in this forum?, does my head in trying to examine that. I limit the extent i’m in the forum, to the extent I am not, or barely am

of social media platforms, they put a substantial effort into immersiveness of user experience, facilitating it, to put it generously

everyone is immersed in their (own) mental activity I guess, it could be said, but there are variations (capacity for) of the immersion dynamics, if you will, which goes to perspective on ones own mental activity, where a person feels positioned of or within or from their own mental activity, which is doubtful an entirely static thing, to be self-aware conscious

That’s what they call the hard question of consciousness (if I understand them correctly).

I’m not sure that it has an answer.

Not everything that is good needs a reason for being.

Depends what you mean by “reason”.

I have no doubt that there is some mechanism that “explains” consciousness.

I just have my doubts that humans will ever discover what it is.

The Rev Dodgson said:

roughbarked said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

That’s what they call the hard question of consciousness (if I understand them correctly).

I’m not sure that it has an answer.

Not everything that is good needs a reason for being.

Depends what you mean by “reason”.

I have no doubt that there is some mechanism that “explains” consciousness.

I just have my doubts that humans will ever discover what it is.

Like happiness, it simply is. Why not just let it be?

roughbarked said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

roughbarked said:

Not everything that is good needs a reason for being.

Depends what you mean by “reason”.

I have no doubt that there is some mechanism that “explains” consciousness.

I just have my doubts that humans will ever discover what it is.

Like happiness, it simply is. Why not just let it be?

You could say the same about anything.

The Rev Dodgson said:

roughbarked said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Depends what you mean by “reason”.

I have no doubt that there is some mechanism that “explains” consciousness.

I just have my doubts that humans will ever discover what it is.

Like happiness, it simply is. Why not just let it be?

You could say the same about anything.

Some things aren’t quite so simple.

roughbarked said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

roughbarked said:

Like happiness, it simply is. Why not just let it be?

You could say the same about anything.

Some things aren’t quite so simple.

What are you saying is “simple”?

The Rev Dodgson said:

roughbarked said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

You could say the same about anything.

Some things aren’t quite so simple.

What are you saying is “simple”?

It was said above.

roughbarked said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

roughbarked said:

Some things aren’t quite so simple.

What are you saying is “simple”?

It was said above.

What was said above?

The Rev Dodgson said:

roughbarked said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

What are you saying is “simple”?

It was said above.

What was said above?

Happiness like consciousness, simply exist.

roughbarked said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

roughbarked said:

It was said above.

What was said above?

Happiness like consciousness, simply exist.

It’s a bit like a warm gun.

sibeen said:

roughbarked said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

What was said above?

Happiness like consciousness, simply exist.

It’s a bit like a warm gun.

I’ve heard that said.

roughbarked said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

roughbarked said:

It was said above.

What was said above?

Happiness like consciousness, simply exist.

If you are saying that the causes of happiness and/or consciousness should not be considered because they are “simple”, I disagree.

The Rev Dodgson said:

roughbarked said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

What was said above?

Happiness like consciousness, simply exist.

If you are saying that the causes of happiness and/or consciousness should not be considered because they are “simple”, I disagree.

I’m happy for you to confuse yourself if that is what you wish to do. When you catch happiness in your butterfly net will it’s wings be damaged?

roughbarked said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

roughbarked said:

Happiness like consciousness, simply exist.

If you are saying that the causes of happiness and/or consciousness should not be considered because they are “simple”, I disagree.

I’m happy for you to confuse yourself if that is what you wish to do. When you catch happiness in your butterfly net will it’s wings be damaged?

I’d be more inclined to ask why unhappiness and unconscious. Surely by knowing these answers the other becomes more obvious?

prolix

roughbarked said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

roughbarked said:

Happiness like consciousness, simply exist.

If you are saying that the causes of happiness and/or consciousness should not be considered because they are “simple”, I disagree.

I’m happy for you to confuse yourself if that is what you wish to do. When you catch happiness in your butterfly net will it’s wings be damaged?

To quote a certain musical group:

“The opposite is also true”.

The Rev Dodgson said:

roughbarked said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

If you are saying that the causes of happiness and/or consciousness should not be considered because they are “simple”, I disagree.

I’m happy for you to confuse yourself if that is what you wish to do. When you catch happiness in your butterfly net will it’s wings be damaged?

To quote a certain musical group:

“The opposite is also true”.

Which is why it is so much fun.

roughbarked said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

roughbarked said:

I’m happy for you to confuse yourself if that is what you wish to do. When you catch happiness in your butterfly net will it’s wings be damaged?

To quote a certain musical group:

“The opposite is also true”.

Which is why it is so much fun.

OK, no bingeing or googling.

Can you name the song where that line is inserted half way through?

The Rev Dodgson said:

roughbarked said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

To quote a certain musical group:

“The opposite is also true”.

Which is why it is so much fun.

OK, no bingeing or googling.

Can you name the song where that line is inserted half way through?

Gosh. Not off the top of my head but lets see, was it on the album Liquid Acrobat as Regards the Air?

roughbarked said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

roughbarked said:

Which is why it is so much fun.

OK, no bingeing or googling.

Can you name the song where that line is inserted half way through?

Gosh. Not off the top of my head but lets see, was it on the album Liquid Acrobat as Regards the Air?

If I was going to pick a song that fits this thread, I’d probably say “Here till here is there”.
What say ye?

roughbarked said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

roughbarked said:

Which is why it is so much fun.

OK, no bingeing or googling.

Can you name the song where that line is inserted half way through?

Gosh. Not off the top of my head but lets see, was it on the album Liquid Acrobat as Regards the Air?

Good guess, but its two albums earlier.

roughbarked said:

roughbarked said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

OK, no bingeing or googling.

Can you name the song where that line is inserted half way through?

Gosh. Not off the top of my head but lets see, was it on the album Liquid Acrobat as Regards the Air?

If I was going to pick a song that fits this thread, I’d probably say “Here till here is there”.
What say ye?

Well that would be my favourite source of ISB quotes, but that one was from Have Mercy I Cry City.

so, further thoughts, i’m thinking if (roughly) parallel systems (only needs be some aspects) converge of whatever activities, one might call that an output, but it’s probably not properly an output, depends largely from where you see it, likely not something that lends to a linear flow chart having a start and end (simple cause and effect) that might be sketched out left to right

the convergence effect is the experience of resolving concepts or whatever, evident in internal monologue, and the projections of working imagination (internal screen), and my experience of those two things suggests they are substantially different in ways, the process paths, that there are necessary working conflicts about their operation, to some extent and possibly largely resource conflicts, possibly necessary to their parallel works

anyway, back to the experience of inside/outside

self-aware conscious creatures i’d guess are unique in that they have ideas about their internal environment, and further i’d expect self-aware AI would need ideas (working concepts, dynamic territory) about its internal environment, a feel-see sense for, or senses plural

anyway, its a suspicion of mine, has been for years, that something from vision systems was replicated, or duplicated in a further downstream system (an accident of evolution), broader system perhaps, from the physics of light, processing of, geometry and all, I mean there’s a substantial physics lesson in that alone, the attributes of light, and consider EMR more broadly for a moment as a mechanism that communicates information, conveys information about structure, everything from gravity through to high energy particles make that

here I am, considering the work of the mind tools regard inside/outside, and what i’m sensing is a pervasive activity of that kind, of course i’m applying the idea, injecting it, mediating, but I do that all the time anyway, no change really, just that activity happens apparently so quick, or the volume of traffic so high, that looking at it hangs the system some, the effect feels like that, involves inhibitory systems, or mechanisms

and now back to a dumb proposition, to use as an example, the extent anyone might feel they are in this forum, and in other peoples heads, and given it’s a public forum, the extent or ways a person might feel they are outside

and related that just above, where does it all go if people sense being on the internet is outside, going outside, I mean really

is that going to be the future