World-first home hydrogen battery stores 3x the energy of a Powerwall 2

To get off the grid with home solar, you need to be able to generate energy when the Sun’s out, and store it for when it’s not. Normally, people do this with lithium battery systems – Tesla’s Powerwall 2 is an example. But Australian company Lavo has built a rather spunky (if chunky) cabinet that can sit on the side of your house and store your excess energy as hydrogen.

more…

Tau.Neutrino said:

World-first home hydrogen battery stores 3x the energy of a Powerwall 2

To get off the grid with home solar, you need to be able to generate energy when the Sun’s out, and store it for when it’s not. Normally, people do this with lithium battery systems – Tesla’s Powerwall 2 is an example. But Australian company Lavo has built a rather spunky (if chunky) cabinet that can sit on the side of your house and store your excess energy as hydrogen.

more…

All this stuff about moving “off-grid”, as though that was a good thing, really irritates me. The only way to make irregular supplies work reliably for everyone is to maximise the number of people on-grid, and increase both short-term local storage, and long-term back-up supplies (which will probably be both local and centralised).

The Rev Dodgson said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

World-first home hydrogen battery stores 3x the energy of a Powerwall 2

To get off the grid with home solar, you need to be able to generate energy when the Sun’s out, and store it for when it’s not. Normally, people do this with lithium battery systems – Tesla’s Powerwall 2 is an example. But Australian company Lavo has built a rather spunky (if chunky) cabinet that can sit on the side of your house and store your excess energy as hydrogen.

more…

All this stuff about moving “off-grid”, as though that was a good thing, really irritates me. The only way to make irregular supplies work reliably for everyone is to maximise the number of people on-grid, and increase both short-term local storage, and long-term back-up supplies (which will probably be both local and centralised).

It seems to be largely about the privileged saving money and putting that cost onto the underprivilged.

roughbarked said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

World-first home hydrogen battery stores 3x the energy of a Powerwall 2

To get off the grid with home solar, you need to be able to generate energy when the Sun’s out, and store it for when it’s not. Normally, people do this with lithium battery systems – Tesla’s Powerwall 2 is an example. But Australian company Lavo has built a rather spunky (if chunky) cabinet that can sit on the side of your house and store your excess energy as hydrogen.

more…

All this stuff about moving “off-grid”, as though that was a good thing, really irritates me. The only way to make irregular supplies work reliably for everyone is to maximise the number of people on-grid, and increase both short-term local storage, and long-term back-up supplies (which will probably be both local and centralised).

It seems to be largely about the privileged saving money and putting that cost onto the underprivilged.

The reported system does sound QI though, if it really is 50% efficient overall. Might become economic over time, and avoids problems with limited life and supply of rare-earth elements associated with battery storage.

Tau.Neutrino said:

World-first home hydrogen battery stores 3x the energy of a Powerwall 2

To get off the grid with home solar, you need to be able to generate energy when the Sun’s out, and store it for when it’s not. Normally, people do this with lithium battery systems – Tesla’s Powerwall 2 is an example. But Australian company Lavo has built a rather spunky (if chunky) cabinet that can sit on the side of your house and store your excess energy as hydrogen.

more…

read that, and watched brief video promo also, latter seemed incontinent bordering confused using inclusive we, whatever, money I guess talking, I could see money lending to such confusion, we all work for money, we all want money, we all want money to spend

subject recombination losses (efficiency) of lithium, probably needs be looked at a bit harder, a nice graph that shows the slope for various states of charge, right down to nearer bottom end, near exhausted up to ~fully charged, for deep cyclic use, including longevity, AH decline etc

transition said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

World-first home hydrogen battery stores 3x the energy of a Powerwall 2

To get off the grid with home solar, you need to be able to generate energy when the Sun’s out, and store it for when it’s not. Normally, people do this with lithium battery systems – Tesla’s Powerwall 2 is an example. But Australian company Lavo has built a rather spunky (if chunky) cabinet that can sit on the side of your house and store your excess energy as hydrogen.

more…

read that, and watched brief video promo also, latter seemed incontinent bordering confused using inclusive we, whatever, money I guess talking, I could see money lending to such confusion, we all work for money, we all want money, we all want money to spend

subject recombination losses (efficiency) of lithium, probably needs be looked at a bit harder, a nice graph that shows the slope for various states of charge, right down to nearer bottom end, near exhausted up to ~fully charged, for deep cyclic use, including longevity, AH decline etc

recombination losses of various rates of re/charging also

The Rev Dodgson said:

roughbarked said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

All this stuff about moving “off-grid”, as though that was a good thing, really irritates me. The only way to make irregular supplies work reliably for everyone is to maximise the number of people on-grid, and increase both short-term local storage, and long-term back-up supplies (which will probably be both local and centralised).

It seems to be largely about the privileged saving money and putting that cost onto the underprivilged.

The reported system does sound QI though, if it really is 50% efficient overall. Might become economic over time, and avoids problems with limited life and supply of rare-earth elements associated with battery storage.

The 5kW max power is a bit of a bummer.

The Rev Dodgson said:

roughbarked said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

All this stuff about moving “off-grid”, as though that was a good thing, really irritates me. The only way to make irregular supplies work reliably for everyone is to maximise the number of people on-grid, and increase both short-term local storage, and long-term back-up supplies (which will probably be both local and centralised).

It seems to be largely about the privileged saving money and putting that cost onto the underprivilged.

The reported system does sound QI though, if it really is 50% efficient overall. Might become economic over time, and avoids problems with limited life and supply of rare-earth elements associated with battery storage.

HYDROGEN!! AND HINDENBERG BOTH START WITH H.

sibeen said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

roughbarked said:

It seems to be largely about the privileged saving money and putting that cost onto the underprivilged.

The reported system does sound QI though, if it really is 50% efficient overall. Might become economic over time, and avoids problems with limited life and supply of rare-earth elements associated with battery storage.

The 5kW max power is a bit of a bummer.

Not a huge problem if you are on-grid though, is it?

The Rev Dodgson said:

sibeen said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

The reported system does sound QI though, if it really is 50% efficient overall. Might become economic over time, and avoids problems with limited life and supply of rare-earth elements associated with battery storage.

The 5kW max power is a bit of a bummer.

Not a huge problem if you are on-grid though, is it?

No.

Peak Warming Man said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

roughbarked said:

It seems to be largely about the privileged saving money and putting that cost onto the underprivilged.

The reported system does sound QI though, if it really is 50% efficient overall. Might become economic over time, and avoids problems with limited life and supply of rare-earth elements associated with battery storage.

HYDROGEN!! AND HINDENBERG BOTH START WITH H.

So does harmless. (TBH I wouldn’t like a potential bomb bolted to my wall)

sibeen said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

roughbarked said:

It seems to be largely about the privileged saving money and putting that cost onto the underprivilged.

The reported system does sound QI though, if it really is 50% efficient overall. Might become economic over time, and avoids problems with limited life and supply of rare-earth elements associated with battery storage.

The 5kW max power is a bit of a bummer.

Buy two

dv said:

sibeen said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

The reported system does sound QI though, if it really is 50% efficient overall. Might become economic over time, and avoids problems with limited life and supply of rare-earth elements associated with battery storage.

The 5kW max power is a bit of a bummer.

Buy two

some, perhaps many people get a big battery on the wall, and the setup is such it runs the entire house when the power goes out, but not for very long, certainly doesn’t cover a household for emergency power for many hours or days, and reality is people don’t know how long the mains power will be down, not immediately, maybe not within the hour the battery is depleted, importantly

daughter’s setup might run the house for an hour or more, never been tested, they use a shitload of power, heated pool, HWS plenty kids to empty that, split system AC does most of the house

anyway point i’m getting at is solar-battery arrangements don’t necessarily incline a reduction in household (power) consumption, because of the added capacity really at a reduced rate (free power from the sun)

people may make savings on electricity bills over the long term, and solar setups may reduce demand on the mains distribution system, and even demand out some, but I reckon to some extent the solar business is another dimension of consumption, not all bad, much of it good, but really of lifestyles it lends to middle class and upper class consumption, and has boast value, status value, eases the conscience too, doing their bit to save the planet

transition said:

dv said:

sibeen said:

The 5kW max power is a bit of a bummer.

Buy two

some, perhaps many people get a big battery on the wall, and the setup is such it runs the entire house when the power goes out, but not for very long, certainly doesn’t cover a household for emergency power for many hours or days, and reality is people don’t know how long the mains power will be down, not immediately, maybe not within the hour the battery is depleted, importantly

daughter’s setup might run the house for an hour or more, never been tested, they use a shitload of power, heated pool, HWS plenty kids to empty that, split system AC does most of the house

anyway point i’m getting at is solar-battery arrangements don’t necessarily incline a reduction in household (power) consumption, because of the added capacity really at a reduced rate (free power from the sun)

people may make savings on electricity bills over the long term, and solar setups may reduce demand on the mains distribution system, and even demand out some, but I reckon to some extent the solar business is another dimension of consumption, not all bad, much of it good, but really of lifestyles it lends to middle class and upper class consumption, and has boast value, status value, eases the conscience too, doing their bit to save the planet

It’s only early days for all these alternatives, give it a decade or two and me may be sitting pretty.

Cymek said:

transition said:

dv said:

Buy two

some, perhaps many people get a big battery on the wall, and the setup is such it runs the entire house when the power goes out, but not for very long, certainly doesn’t cover a household for emergency power for many hours or days, and reality is people don’t know how long the mains power will be down, not immediately, maybe not within the hour the battery is depleted, importantly

daughter’s setup might run the house for an hour or more, never been tested, they use a shitload of power, heated pool, HWS plenty kids to empty that, split system AC does most of the house

anyway point i’m getting at is solar-battery arrangements don’t necessarily incline a reduction in household (power) consumption, because of the added capacity really at a reduced rate (free power from the sun)

people may make savings on electricity bills over the long term, and solar setups may reduce demand on the mains distribution system, and even demand out some, but I reckon to some extent the solar business is another dimension of consumption, not all bad, much of it good, but really of lifestyles it lends to middle class and upper class consumption, and has boast value, status value, eases the conscience too, doing their bit to save the planet

It’s only early days for all these alternatives, give it a decade or two and me may be sitting pretty.

Hmm, not quite that easy. Wind + Solar supply about 2% of Australia’s energy requirement. To get that up to a decent percentage is going to require massive investment and a complete restructure of the transportation industry. Not saying that it cannot be done, but in a decade – not a chance.

sibeen said:

Cymek said:

transition said:

some, perhaps many people get a big battery on the wall, and the setup is such it runs the entire house when the power goes out, but not for very long, certainly doesn’t cover a household for emergency power for many hours or days, and reality is people don’t know how long the mains power will be down, not immediately, maybe not within the hour the battery is depleted, importantly

daughter’s setup might run the house for an hour or more, never been tested, they use a shitload of power, heated pool, HWS plenty kids to empty that, split system AC does most of the house

anyway point i’m getting at is solar-battery arrangements don’t necessarily incline a reduction in household (power) consumption, because of the added capacity really at a reduced rate (free power from the sun)

people may make savings on electricity bills over the long term, and solar setups may reduce demand on the mains distribution system, and even demand out some, but I reckon to some extent the solar business is another dimension of consumption, not all bad, much of it good, but really of lifestyles it lends to middle class and upper class consumption, and has boast value, status value, eases the conscience too, doing their bit to save the planet

It’s only early days for all these alternatives, give it a decade or two and me may be sitting pretty.

Hmm, not quite that easy. Wind + Solar supply about 2% of Australia’s energy requirement. To get that up to a decent percentage is going to require massive investment and a complete restructure of the transportation industry. Not saying that it cannot be done, but in a decade – not a chance.

2% ?

I thought it was something like 15%, with wind and solar having a roughly equal share. Add in hyrdo for about the same and the total is a little over 20%

party_pants said:

sibeen said:

Cymek said:

It’s only early days for all these alternatives, give it a decade or two and me may be sitting pretty.

Hmm, not quite that easy. Wind + Solar supply about 2% of Australia’s energy requirement. To get that up to a decent percentage is going to require massive investment and a complete restructure of the transportation industry. Not saying that it cannot be done, but in a decade – not a chance.

2% ?

I thought it was something like 15%, with wind and solar having a roughly equal share. Add in hyrdo for about the same and the total is a little over 20%

It’s a bit over 7% for electricity. Total renewables for the electricity reaches about 24%, that includes hydro and biomass etc.

party_pants said:

sibeen said:

Cymek said:

It’s only early days for all these alternatives, give it a decade or two and me may be sitting pretty.

Hmm, not quite that easy. Wind + Solar supply about 2% of Australia’s energy requirement. To get that up to a decent percentage is going to require massive investment and a complete restructure of the transportation industry. Not saying that it cannot be done, but in a decade – not a chance.

2% ?

I thought it was something like 15%, with wind and solar having a roughly equal share. Add in hyrdo for about the same and the total is a little over 20%

Renewables make up about 21% of electrical power production nationwide: 7% solar, 7% wind, 5% hydro, 2% other.

However, electrical power only makes up part of Australia’s energy consumption, so renewables only make up about 8% of our total energy.

transition said:

dv said:

sibeen said:

The 5kW max power is a bit of a bummer.

Buy two

some, perhaps many people get a big battery on the wall, and the setup is such it runs the entire house when the power goes out, but not for very long, certainly doesn’t cover a household for emergency power for many hours or days, and reality is people don’t know how long the mains power will be down, not immediately, maybe not within the hour the battery is depleted, importantly

daughter’s setup might run the house for an hour or more, never been tested, they use a shitload of power, heated pool, HWS plenty kids to empty that, split system AC does most of the house

anyway point i’m getting at is solar-battery arrangements don’t necessarily incline a reduction in household (power) consumption, because of the added capacity really at a reduced rate (free power from the sun)

people may make savings on electricity bills over the long term, and solar setups may reduce demand on the mains distribution system, and even demand out some, but I reckon to some extent the solar business is another dimension of consumption, not all bad, much of it good, but really of lifestyles it lends to middle class and upper class consumption, and has boast value, status value, eases the conscience too, doing their bit to save the planet

OK, we’ll just stick with brown coal then shall we?

The Rev Dodgson said:

transition said:

dv said:

Buy two

some, perhaps many people get a big battery on the wall, and the setup is such it runs the entire house when the power goes out, but not for very long, certainly doesn’t cover a household for emergency power for many hours or days, and reality is people don’t know how long the mains power will be down, not immediately, maybe not within the hour the battery is depleted, importantly

daughter’s setup might run the house for an hour or more, never been tested, they use a shitload of power, heated pool, HWS plenty kids to empty that, split system AC does most of the house

anyway point i’m getting at is solar-battery arrangements don’t necessarily incline a reduction in household (power) consumption, because of the added capacity really at a reduced rate (free power from the sun)

people may make savings on electricity bills over the long term, and solar setups may reduce demand on the mains distribution system, and even demand out some, but I reckon to some extent the solar business is another dimension of consumption, not all bad, much of it good, but really of lifestyles it lends to middle class and upper class consumption, and has boast value, status value, eases the conscience too, doing their bit to save the planet

OK, we’ll just stick with brown coal then shall we?

I mean transition seems to think that it is a bad thing that people feel good when they do good things.

The Rev Dodgson said:

transition said:

dv said:

Buy two

some, perhaps many people get a big battery on the wall, and the setup is such it runs the entire house when the power goes out, but not for very long, certainly doesn’t cover a household for emergency power for many hours or days, and reality is people don’t know how long the mains power will be down, not immediately, maybe not within the hour the battery is depleted, importantly

daughter’s setup might run the house for an hour or more, never been tested, they use a shitload of power, heated pool, HWS plenty kids to empty that, split system AC does most of the house

anyway point i’m getting at is solar-battery arrangements don’t necessarily incline a reduction in household (power) consumption, because of the added capacity really at a reduced rate (free power from the sun)

people may make savings on electricity bills over the long term, and solar setups may reduce demand on the mains distribution system, and even demand out some, but I reckon to some extent the solar business is another dimension of consumption, not all bad, much of it good, but really of lifestyles it lends to middle class and upper class consumption, and has boast value, status value, eases the conscience too, doing their bit to save the planet

OK, we’ll just stick with brown coal then shall we?

Power generation should be a basic human right and not a profit making industry

Cymek said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

transition said:

some, perhaps many people get a big battery on the wall, and the setup is such it runs the entire house when the power goes out, but not for very long, certainly doesn’t cover a household for emergency power for many hours or days, and reality is people don’t know how long the mains power will be down, not immediately, maybe not within the hour the battery is depleted, importantly

daughter’s setup might run the house for an hour or more, never been tested, they use a shitload of power, heated pool, HWS plenty kids to empty that, split system AC does most of the house

anyway point i’m getting at is solar-battery arrangements don’t necessarily incline a reduction in household (power) consumption, because of the added capacity really at a reduced rate (free power from the sun)

people may make savings on electricity bills over the long term, and solar setups may reduce demand on the mains distribution system, and even demand out some, but I reckon to some extent the solar business is another dimension of consumption, not all bad, much of it good, but really of lifestyles it lends to middle class and upper class consumption, and has boast value, status value, eases the conscience too, doing their bit to save the planet

OK, we’ll just stick with brown coal then shall we?

Power generation should be a basic human right and not a profit making industry

It was close to that when basic Infrastructure was government owned.

Cymek said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

transition said:

some, perhaps many people get a big battery on the wall, and the setup is such it runs the entire house when the power goes out, but not for very long, certainly doesn’t cover a household for emergency power for many hours or days, and reality is people don’t know how long the mains power will be down, not immediately, maybe not within the hour the battery is depleted, importantly

daughter’s setup might run the house for an hour or more, never been tested, they use a shitload of power, heated pool, HWS plenty kids to empty that, split system AC does most of the house

anyway point i’m getting at is solar-battery arrangements don’t necessarily incline a reduction in household (power) consumption, because of the added capacity really at a reduced rate (free power from the sun)

people may make savings on electricity bills over the long term, and solar setups may reduce demand on the mains distribution system, and even demand out some, but I reckon to some extent the solar business is another dimension of consumption, not all bad, much of it good, but really of lifestyles it lends to middle class and upper class consumption, and has boast value, status value, eases the conscience too, doing their bit to save the planet

OK, we’ll just stick with brown coal then shall we?

Power generation should be a basic human right and not a profit making industry

The same way that food production is a basic human right and not a profit making industry you mean?

dv said:

party_pants said:

sibeen said:

Hmm, not quite that easy. Wind + Solar supply about 2% of Australia’s energy requirement. To get that up to a decent percentage is going to require massive investment and a complete restructure of the transportation industry. Not saying that it cannot be done, but in a decade – not a chance.

2% ?

I thought it was something like 15%, with wind and solar having a roughly equal share. Add in hyrdo for about the same and the total is a little over 20%

Renewables make up about 21% of electrical power production nationwide: 7% solar, 7% wind, 5% hydro, 2% other.

However, electrical power only makes up part of Australia’s energy consumption, so renewables only make up about 8% of our total energy.

My figures were from the latest Australian Energy Statistics 2020 Energy Update Report.

Tamb said:

Cymek said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

OK, we’ll just stick with brown coal then shall we?

Power generation should be a basic human right and not a profit making industry

It was close to that when basic Infrastructure was government owned.

Why did no-one tell me?

I’ve been paying for electricity all these years.

The Rev Dodgson said:

Tamb said:

Cymek said:

Power generation should be a basic human right and not a profit making industry

It was close to that when basic Infrastructure was government owned.

Why did no-one tell me?

I’ve been paying for electricity all these years.

The cost was minimal.

Tamb said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Tamb said:

It was close to that when basic Infrastructure was government owned.

Why did no-one tell me?

I’ve been paying for electricity all these years.

The cost was minimal.

When was that?

I don’t remember this time of minimal electricity cost.

The Rev Dodgson said:

Cymek said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

OK, we’ll just stick with brown coal then shall we?

Power generation should be a basic human right and not a profit making industry

The same way that food production is a basic human right and not a profit making industry you mean?

In an ideal world

Cymek said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Cymek said:

Power generation should be a basic human right and not a profit making industry

The same way that food production is a basic human right and not a profit making industry you mean?

In an ideal world

Is the human race always going to work on monetary based economies and the associated problems with greed and exploitation.
It’s not going to work forever

Cymek said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Cymek said:

Power generation should be a basic human right and not a profit making industry

The same way that food production is a basic human right and not a profit making industry you mean?

In an ideal world

I really don’t think that hiding the cost of essentials works that well.

Ensuring that everyone has an income adequate to cover the cost of essentials makes more sense to me.

Cymek said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Cymek said:

Power generation should be a basic human right and not a profit making industry

The same way that food production is a basic human right and not a profit making industry you mean?

In an ideal world

Like an ideal gas.

The Rev Dodgson said:

Tamb said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Why did no-one tell me?

I’ve been paying for electricity all these years.

The cost was minimal.

When was that?

I don’t remember this time of minimal electricity cost.

When generation was government owned.

The Rev Dodgson said:

Cymek said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

The same way that food production is a basic human right and not a profit making industry you mean?

In an ideal world

I really don’t think that hiding the cost of essentials works that well.

Ensuring that everyone has an income adequate to cover the cost of essentials makes more sense to me.

True

Cymek said:

Cymek said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

The same way that food production is a basic human right and not a profit making industry you mean?

In an ideal world

Is the human race always going to work on monetary based economies and the associated problems with greed and exploitation.
It’s not going to work forever

Greed and exploitation are still there whether the economy is money based or not.

In fact properly managed open market systems reduce the problems associated with greed and exploitation, rather than causing them.

sibeen said:

dv said:

party_pants said:

2% ?

I thought it was something like 15%, with wind and solar having a roughly equal share. Add in hyrdo for about the same and the total is a little over 20%

Renewables make up about 21% of electrical power production nationwide: 7% solar, 7% wind, 5% hydro, 2% other.

However, electrical power only makes up part of Australia’s energy consumption, so renewables only make up about 8% of our total energy.

My figures were from the latest Australian Energy Statistics 2020 Energy Update Report.

Can you show how that chart supports your numbers? It doesn’t seem to provide the information necessary to make the calculation you’ve made.

The Rev Dodgson said:

Cymek said:

Cymek said:

In an ideal world

Is the human race always going to work on monetary based economies and the associated problems with greed and exploitation.
It’s not going to work forever

Greed and exploitation are still there whether the economy is money based or not.

In fact properly managed open market systems reduce the problems associated with greed and exploitation, rather than causing them.

You’re an enigma wrapped in the Weekend Australian.

Peak Warming Man said:

Cymek said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

The same way that food production is a basic human right and not a profit making industry you mean?

In an ideal world

Like an ideal gas.

Photovoltaic (PV) = ideal :)

The Rev Dodgson said:

Cymek said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

The same way that food production is a basic human right and not a profit making industry you mean?

In an ideal world

I really don’t think that hiding the cost of essentials works that well.

Ensuring that everyone has an income adequate to cover the cost of essentials makes more sense to me.

Do governments make any money from providing tap water?

Cymek said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Cymek said:

In an ideal world

I really don’t think that hiding the cost of essentials works that well.

Ensuring that everyone has an income adequate to cover the cost of essentials makes more sense to me.

True

Private enterprise’s need for maximum profits makes that very difficult.

The Rev Dodgson said:

Cymek said:

Cymek said:

In an ideal world

Is the human race always going to work on monetary based economies and the associated problems with greed and exploitation.
It’s not going to work forever

Greed and exploitation are still there whether the economy is money based or not.

In fact properly managed open market systems reduce the problems associated with greed and exploitation, rather than causing them.

It does seem though that almost every industry worldwide is exploiting something/someone and/or finding ways to not be responsible

Peak Warming Man said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Cymek said:

Is the human race always going to work on monetary based economies and the associated problems with greed and exploitation.
It’s not going to work forever

Greed and exploitation are still there whether the economy is money based or not.

In fact properly managed open market systems reduce the problems associated with greed and exploitation, rather than causing them.

You’re an enigma wrapped in the Weekend Australian.

How dare you sir?

I demand a retraction.

I read the Sydney Morning Herald.

Tamb said:

Cymek said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

I really don’t think that hiding the cost of essentials works that well.

Ensuring that everyone has an income adequate to cover the cost of essentials makes more sense to me.

True

Private enterprise’s need for maximum profits makes that very difficult.

That doesn’t even make logical sense, profit OK fair enough, but they can’t forever increase especially when new players come into the market

furious said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Cymek said:

In an ideal world

I really don’t think that hiding the cost of essentials works that well.

Ensuring that everyone has an income adequate to cover the cost of essentials makes more sense to me.

Do governments make any money from providing tap water?

AFAIK no. Loss if anything.

furious said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Cymek said:

In an ideal world

I really don’t think that hiding the cost of essentials works that well.

Ensuring that everyone has an income adequate to cover the cost of essentials makes more sense to me.

Do governments make any money from providing tap water?

Governments are not supposed to be profit making businesses, but the governments round here certainly charge people money for the water they use.

Anyway these household Hindenbergs might be risky but it’s a small price to pay to drive Elon Musk out of business.

Tamb said:

Cymek said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

I really don’t think that hiding the cost of essentials works that well.

Ensuring that everyone has an income adequate to cover the cost of essentials makes more sense to me.

True

Private enterprise’s need for maximum profits makes that very difficult.

Of course it doesn’t.

Political parties’ need to hide costs makes it difficult.

The Rev Dodgson said:

furious said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

I really don’t think that hiding the cost of essentials works that well.

Ensuring that everyone has an income adequate to cover the cost of essentials makes more sense to me.

Do governments make any money from providing tap water?

Governments are not supposed to be profit making businesses, but the governments round here certainly charge people money for the water they use.

Charged, yes, but not what it is worth. A cheap essential. If privatised, prices would rise, much like electricity in private hands…

Cymek said:

Cymek said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

The same way that food production is a basic human right and not a profit making industry you mean?

In an ideal world

Is the human race always going to work on monetary based economies and the associated problems with greed and exploitation.
It’s not going to work forever

Do you feel exploited by the greedy?

furious said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

furious said:

Do governments make any money from providing tap water?

Governments are not supposed to be profit making businesses, but the governments round here certainly charge people money for the water they use.

Charged, yes, but not what it is worth. A cheap essential. If privatised, prices would rise, much like electricity in private hands…

Exactly.

Witty Rejoinder said:

Cymek said:

Cymek said:

In an ideal world

Is the human race always going to work on monetary based economies and the associated problems with greed and exploitation.
It’s not going to work forever

Do you feel exploited by the greedy?

Not directly, but examples like prices go up and quality/quantity goes down when you buy something.

dv said:

Anyway these household Hindenbergs might be risky but it’s a small price to pay to drive Elon Musk out of business.

I heartily endorse this product or service!

furious said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

furious said:

Do governments make any money from providing tap water?

Governments are not supposed to be profit making businesses, but the governments round here certainly charge people money for the water they use.

Charged, yes, but not what it is worth. A cheap essential. If privatised, prices would rise, much like electricity in private hands…

They probably save on tap water by reducing cholera.

dv said:

sibeen said:

dv said:

Renewables make up about 21% of electrical power production nationwide: 7% solar, 7% wind, 5% hydro, 2% other.

However, electrical power only makes up part of Australia’s energy consumption, so renewables only make up about 8% of our total energy.

My figures were from the latest Australian Energy Statistics 2020 Energy Update Report.

Can you show how that chart supports your numbers? It doesn’t seem to provide the information necessary to make the calculation you’ve made.

That’s because I was taking the energy consumption per sector and notthe energy produced per sector – I actually had this calculated and didn’t look at it; ie: I’m an idiot. When I take the produced figure of 846 PJ then wind + solar, I exclude solar hot water, reaches 13.8%.

I was doing some calcs previously on this and exclude Solar HW as it is not something that is greatly expandable.

sibeen said:

I was doing some calcs previously on this and exclude Solar HW as it is not something that is greatly expandable.

??

Looking round here, I don’t see many roofs with solar HW panels.

Other than my own :)

The Rev Dodgson said:

sibeen said:

I was doing some calcs previously on this and exclude Solar HW as it is not something that is greatly expandable.

??

Looking round here, I don’t see many roofs with solar HW panels.

Other than my own :)

I’m very tempted to go solar hot water but it will make for more windage in cyclones.

Tamb said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

sibeen said:

I was doing some calcs previously on this and exclude Solar HW as it is not something that is greatly expandable.

??

Looking round here, I don’t see many roofs with solar HW panels.

Other than my own :)

I’m very tempted to go solar hot water but it will make for more windage in cyclones.

Insurance fixes that.

sibeen said:

ie: I’m an idiot.

No no no that’s way too harsh …

One thing that occurs to me is that there’s a conceptual decision to be made regarding how you account for solar powered clothes drying, ie a line or hoist. The decision to use this rather than an electric dryer reduces emissions: so should this direct use of solar power be added to the total of energy consumed? What about if you use solar desal rather than electrically powered desal? How about if you use the sun to grow your weed rather than grow-lights…

The Rev Dodgson said:

sibeen said:

I was doing some calcs previously on this and exclude Solar HW as it is not something that is greatly expandable.

??

Looking round here, I don’t see many roofs with solar HW panels.

Other than my own :)

In the scheme of things it is only a small percentage of the solar production. Solar PV is growing at around 50% year on year. Solar HW at around an OoM lower, so I discounted it.

roughbarked said:

Tamb said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

??

Looking round here, I don’t see many roofs with solar HW panels.

Other than my own :)

I’m very tempted to go solar hot water but it will make for more windage in cyclones.

Insurance fixes that.

Insurance fixes that given sufficient time.
It took Dad 3 weeks to get theirs replaced.

dv said:

sibeen said:

ie: I’m an idiot.

No no no that’s way too harsh …

One thing that occurs to me is that there’s a conceptual decision to be made regarding how you account for solar powered clothes drying, ie a line or hoist. The decision to use this rather than an electric dryer reduces emissions: so should this direct use of solar power be added to the total of energy consumed? What about if you use solar desal rather than electrically powered desal? How about if you use the sun to grow your weed rather than grow-lights…

Solar cookers as well

Cymek said:

dv said:

sibeen said:

ie: I’m an idiot.

No no no that’s way too harsh …

One thing that occurs to me is that there’s a conceptual decision to be made regarding how you account for solar powered clothes drying, ie a line or hoist. The decision to use this rather than an electric dryer reduces emissions: so should this direct use of solar power be added to the total of energy consumed? What about if you use solar desal rather than electrically powered desal? How about if you use the sun to grow your weed rather than grow-lights…

Solar cookers as well

And the wind is also solar powered…

dv said:

sibeen said:

ie: I’m an idiot.

No no no that’s way too harsh …

One thing that occurs to me is that there’s a conceptual decision to be made regarding how you account for solar powered clothes drying, ie a line or hoist. The decision to use this rather than an electric dryer reduces emissions: so should this direct use of solar power be added to the total of energy consumed? What about if you use solar desal rather than electrically powered desal? How about if you use the sun to grow your weed rather than grow-lights…

I’d say passive solar heating and cooling were the big ones.

furious said:

Cymek said:

dv said:

No no no that’s way too harsh …

One thing that occurs to me is that there’s a conceptual decision to be made regarding how you account for solar powered clothes drying, ie a line or hoist. The decision to use this rather than an electric dryer reduces emissions: so should this direct use of solar power be added to the total of energy consumed? What about if you use solar desal rather than electrically powered desal? How about if you use the sun to grow your weed rather than grow-lights…

Solar cookers as well

And the wind is also solar powered…

So is tidal to an extent.

furious said:

Cymek said:

dv said:

No no no that’s way too harsh …

One thing that occurs to me is that there’s a conceptual decision to be made regarding how you account for solar powered clothes drying, ie a line or hoist. The decision to use this rather than an electric dryer reduces emissions: so should this direct use of solar power be added to the total of energy consumed? What about if you use solar desal rather than electrically powered desal? How about if you use the sun to grow your weed rather than grow-lights…

Solar cookers as well

And the wind is also solar powered…

And hydro

And fossil fuels

The Rev Dodgson said:

dv said:

sibeen said:

ie: I’m an idiot.

No no no that’s way too harsh …

One thing that occurs to me is that there’s a conceptual decision to be made regarding how you account for solar powered clothes drying, ie a line or hoist. The decision to use this rather than an electric dryer reduces emissions: so should this direct use of solar power be added to the total of energy consumed? What about if you use solar desal rather than electrically powered desal? How about if you use the sun to grow your weed rather than grow-lights…

I’d say passive solar heating and cooling were the big ones.

Just tot up the cost of operating the economy if there were no sun…

The Rev Dodgson said:

furious said:

Cymek said:

Solar cookers as well

And the wind is also solar powered…

And hydro

And fossil fuels

Beside the wind and hydro and fossil fuels and solar cookers, what has the Sun ever done for us?

The Rev Dodgson said:

furious said:

Cymek said:

Solar cookers as well

And the wind is also solar powered…

And hydro

And fossil fuels

Probably nuclear fission is the only major one that is not powered by this particular sun

dv said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

dv said:

No no no that’s way too harsh …

One thing that occurs to me is that there’s a conceptual decision to be made regarding how you account for solar powered clothes drying, ie a line or hoist. The decision to use this rather than an electric dryer reduces emissions: so should this direct use of solar power be added to the total of energy consumed? What about if you use solar desal rather than electrically powered desal? How about if you use the sun to grow your weed rather than grow-lights…

I’d say passive solar heating and cooling were the big ones.

Just tot up the cost of operating the economy if there were no sun…

It would be exactly zero wouldn’t it?

(or infinite/per person if you prefer)

sibeen said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

furious said:

And the wind is also solar powered…

And hydro

And fossil fuels

Beside the wind and hydro and fossil fuels and solar cookers, what has the Sun ever done for us?

Brought peace?

dv said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

dv said:

No no no that’s way too harsh …

One thing that occurs to me is that there’s a conceptual decision to be made regarding how you account for solar powered clothes drying, ie a line or hoist. The decision to use this rather than an electric dryer reduces emissions: so should this direct use of solar power be added to the total of energy consumed? What about if you use solar desal rather than electrically powered desal? How about if you use the sun to grow your weed rather than grow-lights…

I’d say passive solar heating and cooling were the big ones.

Just tot up the cost of operating the economy if there were no sun…

We’d have to rely on uranium and geo thermal but then the planet wouldn’t exist anyway so it doesn’t matter

sibeen said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

furious said:

And the wind is also solar powered…

And hydro

And fossil fuels

Beside the wind and hydro and fossil fuels and solar cookers, what has the Sun ever done for us?

Skin cancer?

The Rev Dodgson said:

transition said:

dv said:

Buy two

some, perhaps many people get a big battery on the wall, and the setup is such it runs the entire house when the power goes out, but not for very long, certainly doesn’t cover a household for emergency power for many hours or days, and reality is people don’t know how long the mains power will be down, not immediately, maybe not within the hour the battery is depleted, importantly

daughter’s setup might run the house for an hour or more, never been tested, they use a shitload of power, heated pool, HWS plenty kids to empty that, split system AC does most of the house

anyway point i’m getting at is solar-battery arrangements don’t necessarily incline a reduction in household (power) consumption, because of the added capacity really at a reduced rate (free power from the sun)

people may make savings on electricity bills over the long term, and solar setups may reduce demand on the mains distribution system, and even demand out some, but I reckon to some extent the solar business is another dimension of consumption, not all bad, much of it good, but really of lifestyles it lends to middle class and upper class consumption, and has boast value, status value, eases the conscience too, doing their bit to save the planet

OK, we’ll just stick with brown coal then shall we?

take it easy

the subtlety in there is that conceptualizing (the performance of) an emergency system that is to operate for (unknown) extended period is more like economizing, or reducing consumption

do you get that, by adding solar-battery to mains supply you increase the abundance and supply capacity, also reliability (for short periods), but the overall effect of lifestyles could really be to encourage consumption (of lifestyle)