Date: 14/02/2021 05:32:22
From: monkey skipper
ID: 1695313
Subject: Fish Swimming in Our Waste Lose Their Individuality

Just because you’re done with a Prozac pill, it doesn’t mean the pill is done. In fact, when you swallow something like an antidepressant, that’s not the end of the drug’s journey in the world. It’s the beginning.

Most pharmaceutical drugs, including psychoactive medications such as fluoxetine (made famous under the Prozac brand), are only partially absorbed by the body when they’re ingested.

The rest of the chemical subsequently ends up in your toilet, where it enters the sewage system.

From there, whatever doesn’t get caught in wastewater treatment plants ultimately makes its way out into the ocean, unwittingly prescribed en masse to the marine wildlife living there. They were never patients, but they take the dregs of our doses all the same.

There is nothing new about this. Studies have shown that downstream pollution from antidepressants essentially bathes fish in a drug soup – an insidious phenomenon that can affect their behaviour in strange ways we’re still only beginning to understand.

“Collateral effects of psychoactive pollutants on wildlife are of increasing concern,” a research team led by evolutionary ecologist Giovanni Polverino from the University of Western Australia explains in a new study.

“Psychoactive drugs target receptors of the human brain that are evolutionarily conserved throughout the animal kingdom; so it is perhaps not surprising that they can affect non-target species.”

Just what the limits are of this unintended drug delivery remains an open question, but scientists think fish in the wild could have virtually all aspects of their behaviour altered by bioactive contaminants: activity, sociality, feeding, migration, mating, and more.

One of the biggest unknowns is how drugs like this may change animals at the individual level, since most research into the phenomenon to date has sought to measure averaged effects in groups of fish.

To probe further, Polverino and his team ran a two-year experiment in the lab, subjecting generations of guppies (Poecilia reticulata) to targeted concentrations of fluoxetine at low levels, on par with the chemical’s pollution in aquatic environments, as well as high levels.

The results were stark: the fish on antidepressants seemed to lose their capability for individuality as a result of their exposure, with variations in behaviour between separate animals diminishing as the dose got stronger.

Basically, they all started acting the same.

“The key finding is that chronic exposure to even very low concentrations of fluoxetine erodes variation in activity levels between individuals,” the authors write.

Of itself, that doesn’t necessarily sound like a death sentence, but it could amount to one over a long-enough timescale – since differences in things like risk-taking and other sorts of behavioural strategies among animals are known to benefit species through a variety of ecological and evolutionary processes.

For example, more active and risk-prone individuals are likely to secure more resources and enjoy greater reproductive success, in turn bolstering species’ fitness, genetic diversity, and overall resilience, the researchers say.

If every animal starts acting the same way, though – living their similar, dosed-up lives adrift in a sea of antidepressants and who knows what else – well, the writing could be on the wall.

“For fish populations to thrive in the face of environmental change, members of a group need to behave differently from each other,” Polverino says.

“Unfortunately, we found that such behavioural diversity is eroded in fish populations exposed to fluoxetine, and might place large groups of fish at an increased risk of perishing in a changing and increasingly polluted world.”

Of course, even though the researchers tried to replicate what actual levels of exposure to fluoxetine in the ocean might be, there are limitations to what their two-year experiment in laboratory settings can tell us.

We’re still only looking at results from an animal model here, and it’s possible marine life in the ocean might be exposed and affected somehow differently to this, at least until future research can test things further in the wild.

But then again, maybe the researchers’ experiment isn’t the one we should concern ourselves with.

After all, the real experiment here began nearly half a century ago, when fluoxetine was engineered as a means of treating depression. It was launched in the US market as Prozac in 1988, and became a generic medicine in 2001.

To this day, it’s one of the most commonly sold prescription drugs in the world, being prescribed over 25 million times in the US in 2018.

And all that time, it’s been washing into the ocean.

The findings are reported in Proceedings of the Royal Society B.

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Date: 14/02/2021 09:04:39
From: transition
ID: 1695328
Subject: re: Fish Swimming in Our Waste Lose Their Individuality

the fish are going to despair and become irretrievably despondent after reading this, someone should post the number for Beyond Prozac

on a more serious note, probably pumping chemical reward systems, consistent up-regulation, could result in an America syndrome, where difference becomes more an idea than real

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Date: 14/02/2021 09:24:58
From: dv
ID: 1695339
Subject: re: Fish Swimming in Our Waste Lose Their Individuality

And here’s the URL for the news article

https://www.sciencealert.com/fish-are-losing-their-individuality-in-an-ocean-laced-with-prozac-scientists-warn

And here’s the URL for the journal article

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2020.2294

It’s just amazing that 40 ng/L is being found in surface waters.

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Date: 14/02/2021 09:35:47
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1695343
Subject: re: Fish Swimming in Our Waste Lose Their Individuality

So, fish are less depressed.

That’s good.

There are indications that antidepressants work for organisms all the way through the evolutionary tree from humans to locusts. Or to put it another way, anything with a brain can benefit from SSRIs.

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Date: 14/02/2021 09:40:22
From: roughbarked
ID: 1695349
Subject: re: Fish Swimming in Our Waste Lose Their Individuality

mollwollfumble said:


So, fish are less depressed.

That’s good.

There are indications that antidepressants work for organisms all the way through the evolutionary tree from humans to locusts. Or to put it another way, anything with a brain can benefit from SSRIs.

How did you come to the conclusion that fish were depressed?

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Date: 14/02/2021 10:15:02
From: captain_spalding
ID: 1695363
Subject: re: Fish Swimming in Our Waste Lose Their Individuality

roughbarked said:


mollwollfumble said:

So, fish are less depressed.

That’s good.

There are indications that antidepressants work for organisms all the way through the evolutionary tree from humans to locusts. Or to put it another way, anything with a brain can benefit from SSRIs.

How did you come to the conclusion that fish were depressed?

They appeared to have that sinking feeling, and then they hit rock bottom.

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Date: 14/02/2021 11:29:03
From: sarahs mum
ID: 1695398
Subject: re: Fish Swimming in Our Waste Lose Their Individuality

Anti depressants. The pill. Meths. Coke. Anti epileptic meds. Steroids.

Pharmacological soup.

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Date: 14/02/2021 11:37:31
From: Tamb
ID: 1695403
Subject: re: Fish Swimming in Our Waste Lose Their Individuality

sarahs mum said:


Anti depressants. The pill. Meths. Coke. Anti epileptic meds. Steroids.

Pharmacological soup.


And now Covid.

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Date: 14/02/2021 11:42:54
From: sarahs mum
ID: 1695405
Subject: re: Fish Swimming in Our Waste Lose Their Individuality

Tamb said:


sarahs mum said:

Anti depressants. The pill. Meths. Coke. Anti epileptic meds. Steroids.

Pharmacological soup.


And now Covid.

And bronchial dilators, paracetamol, aspirin, and disinfectants.

Reply Quote

Date: 14/02/2021 21:24:24
From: monkey skipper
ID: 1695714
Subject: re: Fish Swimming in Our Waste Lose Their Individuality

sarahs mum said:


Tamb said:

sarahs mum said:

Anti depressants. The pill. Meths. Coke. Anti epileptic meds. Steroids.

Pharmacological soup.


And now Covid.

And bronchial dilators, paracetamol, aspirin, and disinfectants.

If you believe in re-incarnation coming back as a fish seems unpleasant.

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Date: 14/02/2021 21:45:50
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1695721
Subject: re: Fish Swimming in Our Waste Lose Their Individuality

monkey skipper said:


sarahs mum said:

Tamb said:

And now Covid.

And bronchial dilators, paracetamol, aspirin, and disinfectants.

If you believe in re-incarnation coming back as a fish seems unpleasant.

I once swam in a shark tank, the smell from the fish poo very nearly made me vomit.

Any fish that can swim happily in sewage like that is not going to worry about a few parts per billion of other chemicals.

Don’t forget the poisons in trees that get washed into the water. A lot of trees exude poisons.

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Date: 14/02/2021 22:03:07
From: sarahs mum
ID: 1695730
Subject: re: Fish Swimming in Our Waste Lose Their Individuality

mollwollfumble said:


I once swam in a shark tank, the smell from the fish poo very nearly made me vomit.

Any fish that can swim happily in sewage like that is not going to worry about a few parts per billion of other chemicals.

Don’t forget the poisons in trees that get washed into the water. A lot of trees exude poisons.

Ad yet there is evidence of feminisation of fish in places like the Mediterranean and the Great Lakes.

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Date: 14/02/2021 22:31:26
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1695737
Subject: re: Fish Swimming in Our Waste Lose Their Individuality

sarahs mum said:


mollwollfumble said:

I once swam in a shark tank, the smell from the fish poo very nearly made me vomit.

Any fish that can swim happily in sewage like that is not going to worry about a few parts per billion of other chemicals.

Don’t forget the poisons in trees that get washed into the water. A lot of trees exude poisons.


Ad yet there is evidence of feminisation of fish in places like the Mediterranean and the Great Lakes.

You have to admit, we are so clever. Still it will all be over by 2050, or so they say.

Reply Quote

Date: 14/02/2021 22:33:34
From: sarahs mum
ID: 1695738
Subject: re: Fish Swimming in Our Waste Lose Their Individuality

PermeateFree said:


sarahs mum said:

mollwollfumble said:

I once swam in a shark tank, the smell from the fish poo very nearly made me vomit.

Any fish that can swim happily in sewage like that is not going to worry about a few parts per billion of other chemicals.

Don’t forget the poisons in trees that get washed into the water. A lot of trees exude poisons.


Ad yet there is evidence of feminisation of fish in places like the Mediterranean and the Great Lakes.

You have to admit, we are so clever. Still it will all be over by 2050, or so they say.

But the good news is that Michael Mccormack won’t be here.

Reply Quote

Date: 14/02/2021 22:34:16
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1695739
Subject: re: Fish Swimming in Our Waste Lose Their Individuality

PermeateFree said:


sarahs mum said:

mollwollfumble said:

I once swam in a shark tank, the smell from the fish poo very nearly made me vomit.

Any fish that can swim happily in sewage like that is not going to worry about a few parts per billion of other chemicals.

Don’t forget the poisons in trees that get washed into the water. A lot of trees exude poisons.


Ad yet there is evidence of feminisation of fish in places like the Mediterranean and the Great Lakes.

You have to admit, we are so clever. Still it will all be over by 2050, or so they say.

Even the forum format is going crazy.

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Date: 14/02/2021 23:34:12
From: roughbarked
ID: 1695758
Subject: re: Fish Swimming in Our Waste Lose Their Individuality

sarahs mum said:


PermeateFree said:

sarahs mum said:

Ad yet there is evidence of feminisation of fish in places like the Mediterranean and the Great Lakes.

You have to admit, we are so clever. Still it will all be over by 2050, or so they say.

But the good news is that Michael Mccormack won’t be here.

Where’s he off to?

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Date: 14/02/2021 23:46:50
From: party_pants
ID: 1695764
Subject: re: Fish Swimming in Our Waste Lose Their Individuality

roughbarked said:


sarahs mum said:

PermeateFree said:

You have to admit, we are so clever. Still it will all be over by 2050, or so they say.

But the good news is that Michael Mccormack won’t be here.

Where’s he off to?

Dante’s fifth or sixth.

Reply Quote

Date: 14/02/2021 23:48:47
From: roughbarked
ID: 1695765
Subject: re: Fish Swimming in Our Waste Lose Their Individuality

party_pants said:


roughbarked said:

sarahs mum said:

But the good news is that Michael Mccormack won’t be here.

Where’s he off to?

Dante’s fifth or sixth.

great.

Reply Quote

Date: 14/02/2021 23:54:57
From: sarahs mum
ID: 1695768
Subject: re: Fish Swimming in Our Waste Lose Their Individuality

roughbarked said:


sarahs mum said:

PermeateFree said:

You have to admit, we are so clever. Still it will all be over by 2050, or so they say.

But the good news is that Michael Mccormack won’t be here.

Where’s he off to?

He’s going to be dead by then so it isn’t a problem

The Coalition is facing an increasingly testy party room as it struggles to land on a climate policy, with the Nationals leader, Michael McCormack, declaring he is “not worried about what might happen in 30 years’ time”.

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Date: 14/02/2021 23:58:14
From: roughbarked
ID: 1695769
Subject: re: Fish Swimming in Our Waste Lose Their Individuality

sarahs mum said:


roughbarked said:

sarahs mum said:

But the good news is that Michael Mccormack won’t be here.

Where’s he off to?

He’s going to be dead by then so it isn’t a problem

The Coalition is facing an increasingly testy party room as it struggles to land on a climate policy, with the Nationals leader, Michael McCormack, declaring he is “not worried about what might happen in 30 years’ time”.

Would have enlightened his electors if he’d told them that before they voted.

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Date: 14/02/2021 23:59:42
From: sarahs mum
ID: 1695771
Subject: re: Fish Swimming in Our Waste Lose Their Individuality

roughbarked said:


sarahs mum said:

roughbarked said:

Where’s he off to?

He’s going to be dead by then so it isn’t a problem

The Coalition is facing an increasingly testy party room as it struggles to land on a climate policy, with the Nationals leader, Michael McCormack, declaring he is “not worried about what might happen in 30 years’ time”.

Would have enlightened his electors if he’d told them that before they voted.

His electors want lots of diesel. Accordong to michael.

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Date: 15/02/2021 00:00:06
From: Bubblecar
ID: 1695772
Subject: re: Fish Swimming in Our Waste Lose Their Individuality

sarahs mum said:


roughbarked said:

sarahs mum said:

But the good news is that Michael Mccormack won’t be here.

Where’s he off to?

He’s going to be dead by then so it isn’t a problem

The Coalition is facing an increasingly testy party room as it struggles to land on a climate policy, with the Nationals leader, Michael McCormack, declaring he is “not worried about what might happen in 30 years’ time”.

Well that’s only fair. You can hardly expect a nation’s government to care about the future of the nation.

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Date: 15/02/2021 00:00:30
From: roughbarked
ID: 1695773
Subject: re: Fish Swimming in Our Waste Lose Their Individuality

sarahs mum said:


roughbarked said:

sarahs mum said:

He’s going to be dead by then so it isn’t a problem

The Coalition is facing an increasingly testy party room as it struggles to land on a climate policy, with the Nationals leader, Michael McCormack, declaring he is “not worried about what might happen in 30 years’ time”.

Would have enlightened his electors if he’d told them that before they voted.

His electors want lots of diesel. Accordong to michael.

At the moment they do.

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Date: 15/02/2021 00:01:12
From: roughbarked
ID: 1695775
Subject: re: Fish Swimming in Our Waste Lose Their Individuality

Bubblecar said:


sarahs mum said:

roughbarked said:

Where’s he off to?

He’s going to be dead by then so it isn’t a problem

The Coalition is facing an increasingly testy party room as it struggles to land on a climate policy, with the Nationals leader, Michael McCormack, declaring he is “not worried about what might happen in 30 years’ time”.

Well that’s only fair. You can hardly expect a nation’s government to care about the future of the nation.

Seems somehow skewed. Maybe we should make them do it for free?

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Date: 15/02/2021 08:58:50
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1695846
Subject: re: Fish Swimming in Our Waste Lose Their Individuality

roughbarked said:


Bubblecar said:

sarahs mum said:

He’s going to be dead by then so it isn’t a problem

The Coalition is facing an increasingly testy party room as it struggles to land on a climate policy, with the Nationals leader, Michael McCormack, declaring he is “not worried about what might happen in 30 years’ time”.

Well that’s only fair. You can hardly expect a nation’s government to care about the future of the nation.

Seems somehow skewed. Maybe we should make them do it for free?

Would that help?

It seems to me that the fundamental problem is that it is in the interests of everyone for long term costs to be recognised, but it is in the short term interests of politicians to hide costs as far as possible, and future costs are the most easily hidden.

It should be in the interests of news media to gain respect from their customers by revealing these hidden costs, but unfortunately that doesn’t seem to work very well, and indeed certain influential people in the media are intent on doing the opposite.

I don’t know what we can do about that.

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Date: 15/02/2021 09:08:08
From: roughbarked
ID: 1695852
Subject: re: Fish Swimming in Our Waste Lose Their Individuality

The Rev Dodgson said:


roughbarked said:

Bubblecar said:

Well that’s only fair. You can hardly expect a nation’s government to care about the future of the nation.

Seems somehow skewed. Maybe we should make them do it for free?

Would that help?

It seems to me that the fundamental problem is that it is in the interests of everyone for long term costs to be recognised, but it is in the short term interests of politicians to hide costs as far as possible, and future costs are the most easily hidden.

It should be in the interests of news media to gain respect from their customers by revealing these hidden costs, but unfortunately that doesn’t seem to work very well, and indeed certain influential people in the media are intent on doing the opposite.

I don’t know what we can do about that.

I don’t know if anything will help now. We are probably too far down the path. However, volunteer organisations seem to work well.

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Date: 15/02/2021 18:14:05
From: wookiemeister
ID: 1696218
Subject: re: Fish Swimming in Our Waste Lose Their Individuality

No waste water from cities/ towns sewer systems should enter the ocean. The water can be purified and reused in some way.

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Date: 15/02/2021 18:16:49
From: Peak Warming Man
ID: 1696221
Subject: re: Fish Swimming in Our Waste Lose Their Individuality

wookiemeister said:


No waste water from cities/ towns sewer systems should enter the ocean. The water can be purified and reused in some way.

What about wash down morgue water?

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