Date: 4/03/2021 03:15:10
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1705718
Subject: How Rivers in the Sky Melt Huge Holes in Antarctic Ice

New research is causing scientists to rethink how polynyas—massive openings in the sea ice—are formed.


A polynya opens up in the Weddell Sea.

A few years ago, a giant hole opened up in the Antarctic sea ice, capturing attention around the world. Not since the 1970s had such a chasm appeared in the mid-ocean ice of the Weddell Sea.

Scientists showed in previous research that ocean processes and cyclones contributed to the hole, called a polynya. But a recent study has revealed a new piece of the puzzle: atmospheric rivers.

Most polynyas in the Southern Ocean occur along Antarctica’s coast. These temporary ice-free zones are oases for penguins, seals, and other Antarctic wildlife. The Weddell polynya, however, formed much farther from shore.

Though they are just massive holes in the ice, polynyas can affect regional and global climates. Understanding the factors that contribute to their creation—especially of an anomalous open-ocean polynya like the large Weddell polynya—can then lead to more accurate predictions of their behavior in a warming climate, the study says.

In her previous work, lead author Diana Francis, an atmospheric scientist at Khalifa University in the United Arab Emirates, found that cyclones played a role in creating the polynya. However, since these storms are relatively common and don’t always result in such major openings in the ice, she continued to search for another contributor; that’s when she landed on atmospheric rivers.

Atmospheric rivers are long streams in the atmosphere that carry moisture from the tropics toward the north and south poles. They can be hundreds of kilometers wide, thousands of kilometers long, and carry more water vapor than the world’s largest rivers. Francis and her colleagues found that a series of them crossed the Weddell Sea in the days before and after the massive polynya opened in 2017. They carried an exceptional amount of water vapor—itself a potent greenhouse gas—that warmed and weakened the sea ice and helped intensify the cyclones that followed. The atmospheric rivers also brought large amounts of warm snow that likely enhanced the melt, Francis says.

Looking back at historical events, Francis and her team found that atmospheric rivers were also associated with the last big polynya in the Weddell Sea, in 1973–1974, and with another smaller hole in 2016.

Sarah Gille, an atmospheric scientist and physical oceanographer at Scripps Institution of Oceanography at the University of California San Diego who was not involved in the work, calls Francis’s study “transformative.”

“We tend to think the oceans are the real driver of . The paper suggests a much more complex set of processes may precondition the ocean and allow a polynya to exist,” she says.

Atmospheric conditions may even enhance the oceanic processes involved in polynya formation. The blanket of snow the atmospheric rivers delivered, for instance, may have acted as an insulator, trapping heat from the ocean and magnifying the ice melt from below, explains Ethan Campbell, a graduate student at the University of Washington, who has studied the Weddell polynya.

The rarity of open-ocean polynyas means there isn’t much data to help scientists understand whether they are as important for marine animals as polynyas closer to shore, says Mia Wege, a marine predator ecologist with South Africa’s University of Pretoria.

Marilyn Raphael, a geographer at the University of California, Los Angeles, says she’s interested in what further research might reveal about the role atmospheric rivers play in Antarctic sea ice variability more broadly.

Changes in the sea ice can have implications for the global climate, and previous research has shown that climate change is expected to make atmospheric rivers stronger and more common.

“The Antarctic sea ice system is so complex, and there are so many things that influence its growth, its advance, its retreat,” Raphael says. “Any bit of information that will help explain what we’re seeing would be welcomed.”

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/articles/how-rivers-sky-melt-huge-holes-antarctic-ice-180977112/

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Date: 4/03/2021 04:19:04
From: transition
ID: 1705721
Subject: re: How Rivers in the Sky Melt Huge Holes in Antarctic Ice

cheers for that, permeate

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Date: 4/03/2021 07:54:21
From: roughbarked
ID: 1705726
Subject: re: How Rivers in the Sky Melt Huge Holes in Antarctic Ice

Thanks.

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Date: 4/03/2021 12:57:12
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1705860
Subject: re: How Rivers in the Sky Melt Huge Holes in Antarctic Ice

> Atmospheric rivers are long streams in the atmosphere that carry moisture from the tropics toward the north and south poles. They can be hundreds of kilometers wide, thousands of kilometers long, and carry more water vapor than the world’s largest rivers.

These got a mention in QI.

But are they synonymous with “jet streams” or not?

Reply Quote

Date: 4/03/2021 12:58:17
From: roughbarked
ID: 1705862
Subject: re: How Rivers in the Sky Melt Huge Holes in Antarctic Ice

mollwollfumble said:


> Atmospheric rivers are long streams in the atmosphere that carry moisture from the tropics toward the north and south poles. They can be hundreds of kilometers wide, thousands of kilometers long, and carry more water vapor than the world’s largest rivers.

These got a mention in QI.

But are they synonymous with “jet streams” or not?

Apparently they are a law unto themselves?

Reply Quote

Date: 4/03/2021 12:59:34
From: dv
ID: 1705864
Subject: re: How Rivers in the Sky Melt Huge Holes in Antarctic Ice

mollwollfumble said:


> Atmospheric rivers are long streams in the atmosphere that carry moisture from the tropics toward the north and south poles. They can be hundreds of kilometers wide, thousands of kilometers long, and carry more water vapor than the world’s largest rivers.

These got a mention in QI.

But are they synonymous with “jet streams” or not?

Seems to me, not.

Reply Quote

Date: 4/03/2021 13:04:39
From: ChrispenEvan
ID: 1705869
Subject: re: How Rivers in the Sky Melt Huge Holes in Antarctic Ice

dv said:


mollwollfumble said:

> Atmospheric rivers are long streams in the atmosphere that carry moisture from the tropics toward the north and south poles. They can be hundreds of kilometers wide, thousands of kilometers long, and carry more water vapor than the world’s largest rivers.

These got a mention in QI.

But are they synonymous with “jet streams” or not?

Seems to me, not.

aren’t these those Ferrel cells?

Reply Quote

Date: 4/03/2021 13:09:21
From: Michael V
ID: 1705874
Subject: re: How Rivers in the Sky Melt Huge Holes in Antarctic Ice

mollwollfumble said:


> Atmospheric rivers are long streams in the atmosphere that carry moisture from the tropics toward the north and south poles. They can be hundreds of kilometers wide, thousands of kilometers long, and carry more water vapor than the world’s largest rivers.

These got a mention in QI.

But are they synonymous with “jet streams” or not?

No.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_river

https://glossary.ametsoc.org/wiki/Atmospheric_river

Reply Quote

Date: 4/03/2021 17:36:37
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1706087
Subject: re: How Rivers in the Sky Melt Huge Holes in Antarctic Ice

Michael V said:


mollwollfumble said:

> Atmospheric rivers are long streams in the atmosphere that carry moisture from the tropics toward the north and south poles. They can be hundreds of kilometers wide, thousands of kilometers long, and carry more water vapor than the world’s largest rivers.

These got a mention in QI.

But are they synonymous with “jet streams” or not?

No.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_river

https://glossary.ametsoc.org/wiki/Atmospheric_river

Ta. I still don’t understand.

Wikipedia says related to jet streams here: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/Mjo_north_america_rain.png
but related to cold fronts in “frontal zones in association with extratropical cyclones” from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_river

Tother link says that an atmospheric river is a cold front. https://glossary.ametsoc.org/w/images/e/eb/Atmospheric_river_fig1a.png

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Date: 4/03/2021 17:42:14
From: roughbarked
ID: 1706092
Subject: re: How Rivers in the Sky Melt Huge Holes in Antarctic Ice

mollwollfumble said:


Michael V said:

mollwollfumble said:

> Atmospheric rivers are long streams in the atmosphere that carry moisture from the tropics toward the north and south poles. They can be hundreds of kilometers wide, thousands of kilometers long, and carry more water vapor than the world’s largest rivers.

These got a mention in QI.

But are they synonymous with “jet streams” or not?

No.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_river

https://glossary.ametsoc.org/wiki/Atmospheric_river

Ta. I still don’t understand.

Wikipedia says related to jet streams here: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/Mjo_north_america_rain.png
but related to cold fronts in “frontal zones in association with extratropical cyclones” from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_river

Tother link says that an atmospheric river is a cold front. https://glossary.ametsoc.org/w/images/e/eb/Atmospheric_river_fig1a.png

You noticed?

Reply Quote

Date: 4/03/2021 18:55:11
From: buffy
ID: 1706177
Subject: re: How Rivers in the Sky Melt Huge Holes in Antarctic Ice

I remembered reading about the rivers in SciAm a couple of years ago. It was probably this piece:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/warning-scale-unveiled-for-dangerous-rivers-in-the-sky/

And there is a noaa explanation.

https://www.noaa.gov/stories/what-are-atmospheric-rivers

Sorry if they have been put into the thread already, I haven’t scanned all posts.

Reply Quote

Date: 4/03/2021 18:59:04
From: roughbarked
ID: 1706179
Subject: re: How Rivers in the Sky Melt Huge Holes in Antarctic Ice

buffy said:


I remembered reading about the rivers in SciAm a couple of years ago. It was probably this piece:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/warning-scale-unveiled-for-dangerous-rivers-in-the-sky/

And there is a noaa explanation.

https://www.noaa.gov/stories/what-are-atmospheric-rivers

Sorry if they have been put into the thread already, I haven’t scanned all posts.

They are new links in the thread buffy.

Reply Quote

Date: 4/03/2021 19:51:46
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1706239
Subject: re: How Rivers in the Sky Melt Huge Holes in Antarctic Ice

roughbarked said:


buffy said:

I remembered reading about the rivers in SciAm a couple of years ago. It was probably this piece:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/warning-scale-unveiled-for-dangerous-rivers-in-the-sky/

And there is a noaa explanation.

https://www.noaa.gov/stories/what-are-atmospheric-rivers

Sorry if they have been put into the thread already, I haven’t scanned all posts.

They are new links in the thread buffy.

Neither of those links say what causes an atmospheric river.
Looks like I’m going have to stick with “cold front” front for now.

Reply Quote

Date: 4/03/2021 19:55:46
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1706244
Subject: re: How Rivers in the Sky Melt Huge Holes in Antarctic Ice

mollwollfumble said:


roughbarked said:

buffy said:

I remembered reading about the rivers in SciAm a couple of years ago. It was probably this piece:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/warning-scale-unveiled-for-dangerous-rivers-in-the-sky/

And there is a noaa explanation.

https://www.noaa.gov/stories/what-are-atmospheric-rivers

Sorry if they have been put into the thread already, I haven’t scanned all posts.

They are new links in the thread buffy.

Neither of those links say what causes an atmospheric river.
Looks like I’m going have to stick with “cold front” front for now.

>>Atmospheric rivers are long streams in the atmosphere that carry moisture from the tropics toward the north and south poles. They can be hundreds of kilometers wide, thousands of kilometers long, and carry more water vapor than the world’s largest rivers. Francis and her colleagues found that a series of them crossed the Weddell Sea in the days before and after the massive polynya opened in 2017. They carried an exceptional amount of water vapor—itself a potent greenhouse gas—that warmed and weakened the sea ice and helped intensify the cyclones that followed. The atmospheric rivers also brought large amounts of warm snow that likely enhanced the melt, Francis says.<<

From the OP.

Reply Quote

Date: 4/03/2021 19:57:23
From: Michael V
ID: 1706246
Subject: re: How Rivers in the Sky Melt Huge Holes in Antarctic Ice

mollwollfumble said:


roughbarked said:

buffy said:

I remembered reading about the rivers in SciAm a couple of years ago. It was probably this piece:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/warning-scale-unveiled-for-dangerous-rivers-in-the-sky/

And there is a noaa explanation.

https://www.noaa.gov/stories/what-are-atmospheric-rivers

Sorry if they have been put into the thread already, I haven’t scanned all posts.

They are new links in the thread buffy.

Neither of those links say what causes an atmospheric river.
Looks like I’m going have to stick with “cold front” front for now.

Cold front and trough system that extends from the tropics well in the temperate zones. This week’s rain in Perth came from just such a system. As I understand it.

Reply Quote

Date: 5/03/2021 18:27:36
From: Michael V
ID: 1706632
Subject: re: How Rivers in the Sky Melt Huge Holes in Antarctic Ice

Michael V said:


mollwollfumble said:

roughbarked said:

They are new links in the thread buffy.

Neither of those links say what causes an atmospheric river.
Looks like I’m going have to stick with “cold front” front for now.

Cold front and trough system that extends from the tropics well in the temperate zones. This week’s rain in Perth came from just such a system. As I understand it.

This ABC News article has some info and pictures and videos:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08-11/twin-atmospheric-rivers-form-in-sky-over-australia/12543430

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Date: 14/03/2021 08:33:27
From: Michael V
ID: 1709989
Subject: re: How Rivers in the Sky Melt Huge Holes in Antarctic Ice

This morning’s BOM satellite cloud image shows a fantastic example of an atmospheric river, flowing from northwest to southeast.

http://satview.bom.gov.au/

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Date: 14/03/2021 11:09:29
From: transition
ID: 1710058
Subject: re: How Rivers in the Sky Melt Huge Holes in Antarctic Ice

Michael V said:

This morning’s BOM satellite cloud image shows a fantastic example of an atmospheric river, flowing from northwest to southeast.

http://satview.bom.gov.au/


good image of it

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Date: 14/03/2021 11:17:50
From: Ian
ID: 1710060
Subject: re: How Rivers in the Sky Melt Huge Holes in Antarctic Ice

transition said:


Michael V said:

This morning’s BOM satellite cloud image shows a fantastic example of an atmospheric river, flowing from northwest to southeast.

http://satview.bom.gov.au/


good image of it

Big river in the sky is likely to bring us yet another flood.

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Date: 14/03/2021 11:38:16
From: roughbarked
ID: 1710071
Subject: re: How Rivers in the Sky Melt Huge Holes in Antarctic Ice

Ian said:


transition said:

Michael V said:

This morning’s BOM satellite cloud image shows a fantastic example of an atmospheric river, flowing from northwest to southeast.

http://satview.bom.gov.au/


good image of it

Big river in the sky is likely to bring us yet another flood.

Bugger all of it stayed here.

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