everyone has to in some way be glad they are themselves, but if I venture the flipside or whatever of that it seems likely to require not wanting to be something else, or not wanting to be someone else more to my point, or it could even be a former self

this seems like complex psychological territory to me, probably largely avoided in detail, probably good reason to limit abstraction regard

not everyone indulges the work of comparison it could incline, depends how adequate one feels I guess, sense of adequacy, how that is got, what it is grounded in

it seems to me there are inevitable paradoxical aspects anyway

moving on to the subject of nationality, as an example

do I need compare being Australian with some other nationality to appreciate being Australian?

part of me being glad i’m Australian need not involve being glad i’m not some other nationality

like I jokingly put to someone the other day they are glad they’re not Indian, or American, or Chinese, to an Australian, well a Tasmanian actually, they qualify I guess

so my question is of the more general business of in some way being glad of whatever, that you are you, but of the more unstudied dimension regard what you’re glad you’re not

I mean is the typical example of the self-aware conscious human actually looking for things to be glad it’s not, and to some extent manufacturing them

further, if this paradoxical dimension exists, will it also be a challenge for AI self-aware conscious machines

of course gladness may be just a mental state, totally unnecessary to awareness of an AI machine sort

no

I’m glad I’m not trapped in more unfortunate circumstances like some people, but I can’t say I’m either glad I’m me or sad I’m me.

Seems a pointless emotion given that if I’m going to exist at all, I will be “me”.

transition said:

everyone has to in some way be glad they are themselves, but if I venture the flipside or whatever of that it seems likely to require not wanting to be something else, or not wanting to be someone else more to my point, or it could even be a former self

this seems like complex psychological territory to me, probably largely avoided in detail, probably good reason to limit abstraction regard

not everyone indulges the work of comparison it could incline, depends how adequate one feels I guess, sense of adequacy, how that is got, what it is grounded in

it seems to me there are inevitable paradoxical aspects anyway

moving on to the subject of nationality, as an example

do I need compare being Australian with some other nationality to appreciate being Australian?

part of me being glad i’m Australian need not involve being glad i’m not some other nationality

like I jokingly put to someone the other day they are glad they’re not Indian, or American, or Chinese, to an Australian, well a Tasmanian actually, they qualify I guess

so my question is of the more general business of in some way being glad of whatever, that you are you, but of the more unstudied dimension regard what you’re glad you’re not

I mean is the typical example of the self-aware conscious human actually looking for things to be glad it’s not, and to some extent manufacturing them

further, if this paradoxical dimension exists, will it also be a challenge for AI self-aware conscious machines

of course gladness may be just a mental state, totally unnecessary to awareness of an AI machine sort

> but if I venture the flipside …

I like flipside. It’s my favourite side.

> this seems like complex psychological territory to me

You could do a PhD on the topic.

> not everyone indulges the work of comparison it could incline, depends how adequate one feels I guess, sense of adequacy, how that is got, what it is grounded in

Agree. Avoiding comparison with others is a useful survival strategy, and is possible in a non-competitive environment.

> do I need compare being Australian with some other nationality to appreciate being Australian?

Eeee. I think so. Aborigines had no pride in being aboriginal until they encountered people who weren’t aboriginal. There wasn’t even a word for “aboriginal” or “indigenous” until it was invented by whites.

> is the typical example of the self-aware conscious human actually looking for things to be glad it’s not, and to some extent manufacturing them

For me at my time of life it is. But to see that, you have to look at, and to some extent manufacture, the problems that people who are not me suffer from. And that requires in-depth study not juist casual contact.

The paradoxical nature is resolved on the time dimension. In the short term, the grass seems greener on the other side of the fence. But in the long term, being exiled from your normal paddock seems less and less attractive.

mollwollfumble said:

Eeee. I think so. Aborigines had no pride in being aboriginal until they encountered people who weren’t aboriginal. There wasn’t even a word for “aboriginal” or “indigenous” until it was invented by whites.

How many did you ask?

It seems they certainly had a concept of “country” and belonging to it.

The Rev Dodgson said:

mollwollfumble said:

Eeee. I think so. Aborigines had no pride in being aboriginal until they encountered people who weren’t aboriginal. There wasn’t even a word for “aboriginal” or “indigenous” until it was invented by whites.

How many did you ask?

It seems they certainly had a concept of “country” and belonging to it.

Oh, and could someone remind me what the actual “paradox” is?

mollwollfumble said:

Eeee. I think so. Aborigines had no pride in being aboriginal until they encountered people who weren’t aboriginal. There wasn’t even a word for “aboriginal” or “indigenous” until it was invented by whites.

> How many did you ask?

Too influenced now by immigrants. Have you read Daisy Bates?

> It seems they certainly had a concept of “country” and belonging to it.

Nup. Not even that. On Torres Straight Islands yes. Tiwi islands, yes.

> Oh, and could someone remind me what the actual “paradox” is?

Yes.

> What?

The paradox is that you can never appreciate something unless you’re at least partially aware of what’s beyond it.

And you can never be glad to have something unless you’re aware of the life stuggles of at least one person who doen’t have it. Just knowing that there exists a person who doesn’t have it is not enough.

mollwollfumble said:

mollwollfumble said:

Eeee. I think so. Aborigines had no pride in being aboriginal until they encountered people who weren’t aboriginal. There wasn’t even a word for “aboriginal” or “indigenous” until it was invented by whites.

> How many did you ask?

Too influenced now by immigrants. Have you read Daisy Bates?

> It seems they certainly had a concept of “country” and belonging to it.

Nup. Not even that. On Torres Straight Islands yes. Tiwi islands, yes.

> Oh, and could someone remind me what the actual “paradox” is?

Yes.

> What?

The paradox is that you can never appreciate something unless you’re at least partially aware of what’s beyond it.

And you can never be glad to have something unless you’re aware of the life stuggles of at least one person who doen’t have it. Just knowing that there exists a person who doesn’t have it is not enough.

mollwollfumble said:

> It seems they certainly had a concept of “country” and belonging to it.

Nup. Not even that. On Torres Straight Islands yes. Tiwi islands, yes.

So you’re right and every academic expert in these matters is wrong?

Witty Rejoinder said:

mollwollfumble said:

> It seems they certainly had a concept of “country” and belonging to it.

Nup. Not even that. On Torres Straight Islands yes. Tiwi islands, yes.

So you’re right and every academic expert in these matters is wrong?

What do you think is the aboriginal word for ‘aborigine’?

mollwollfumble said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

mollwollfumble said:

> It seems they certainly had a concept of “country” and belonging to it.

Nup. Not even that. On Torres Straight Islands yes. Tiwi islands, yes.

So you’re right and every academic expert in these matters is wrong?

What do you think is the aboriginal word for ‘aborigine’?

The same as the Aborigine word for person.

Witty Rejoinder said:

mollwollfumble said:

> It seems they certainly had a concept of “country” and belonging to it.

Nup. Not even that. On Torres Straight Islands yes. Tiwi islands, yes.

So you’re right and every academic expert in these matters is wrong?

What do you think is the aboriginal word for ‘aborigine’?

The whole point of this thread is that you can’t appreciate how lucky you are to be Australian unless you know someone who isn’t. You can’t appreciate that the grass isn’t greener on the other side of the fence until you can imagine the hardships associated with being on the far side of the fence. You can’t appreciate how good it is to be atheist without being aware of religion.

mollwollfumble said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

mollwollfumble said:

> It seems they certainly had a concept of “country” and belonging to it.

Nup. Not even that. On Torres Straight Islands yes. Tiwi islands, yes.

So you’re right and every academic expert in these matters is wrong?

What do you think is the aboriginal word for ‘aborigine’?

The whole point of this thread is that you can’t appreciate how lucky you are to be Australian unless you know someone who isn’t. You can’t appreciate that the grass isn’t greener on the other side of the fence until you can imagine the hardships associated with being on the far side of the fence. You can’t appreciate how good it is to be atheist without being aware of religion.

Are you sure?

mollwollfumble said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

mollwollfumble said:

> It seems they certainly had a concept of “country” and belonging to it.

Nup. Not even that. On Torres Straight Islands yes. Tiwi islands, yes.

So you’re right and every academic expert in these matters is wrong?

What do you think is the aboriginal word for ‘aborigine’?

The whole point of this thread is that you can’t appreciate how lucky you are to be Australian unless you know someone who isn’t. You can’t appreciate that the grass isn’t greener on the other side of the fence until you can imagine the hardships associated with being on the far side of the fence. You can’t appreciate how good it is to be atheist without being aware of religion.

OK, so lets forget the whole nonsense of Aboriginal people not having any concept of rivers and valleys, and of people who lived on the other side of the river or valley, and concentrate on the original hypothesis.

I don’t see anything paradoxical about it. If its true, it’s just true, where is the paradox?

But I don’t think it is true as stated. Certainly observing the lives of people who lack some benefit (let’s take proper cold weather in the winter as an example) might help you appreciate that benefit more, but I think it’s simply untrue to say that you can’t appreciate it at all without that knowledge.

A rather extreme example of either/orism, IMO.

A year after the Juukan Gorge blasts, it’s time to listen to Aboriginal people who want to protect land and culture

yes

>I don’t see anything paradoxical about it. If its true, it’s just true, where is the paradox?

the point is, that of the process level there really is no cognitively ideal way to deal with the proposition/s, hence people often suspend (withhold) comparisons in the social field, limit it, of course the internal press agent is creative enough to make it work, very ‘practical’ you might say

the proposition in its more raw form might be considered from the starting point that envy and jealousy are universal across the species

basically people patch the contradictions

transition said:

the proposition in its more raw form might be considered from the starting point that envy and jealousy are universal across the species

OK, I understand that bit.

I still don’t see anything paradoxical about it.

The Rev Dodgson said:

transition said:

the proposition in its more raw form might be considered from the starting point that envy and jealousy are universal across the species

OK, I understand that bit.

I still don’t see anything paradoxical about it.

a paradox aversion, glad i’m not you

no

transition said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

transition said:

the proposition in its more raw form might be considered from the starting point that envy and jealousy are universal across the species

OK, I understand that bit.

I still don’t see anything paradoxical about it.

a paradox aversion, glad i’m not you

If twins doctors went back in time to kill their grandfather it would be a pair of docs paradox

It’s good to be back in chat.

Peak Warming Man said:

It’s good to be back in chat.

Bugger.

Peak Warming Man said:

Peak Warming Man said:

It’s good to be back in chat.

Bugger.

Lol

dv said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Peak Warming Man said:

It’s good to be back in chat.

Bugger.

Lol

I’m trying to work out if PWM has set us a little paradox here or not.

It’s a bit of a paradox.