You can speak Serbo-Croatian. Or not.

When reading a foreign language, the easiest words to read are those that are very similar to a language I already know. Obviously.
But those are seldom if ever the words first taught when being taught a language.

I have occasionally wondered:
Is it possible to conduct an intelligent conversation in two different languages simultaneously using only words which are very similar between the two languages?

I bought a puzzle book (largely word-search) in a foreign language two weeks ago. I’m half way through and I still don’t know what language it is in, because Google translate recognises all the words in it as Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian, possibly also Macedonian. So I’m going to call it Serbo-Croatian. I borrowed a Serbo-Croatian dictionary and most (but not all) of the words are in it.

What I found startling is that a high proportion of the words in the puzzle book (perhaps as high as 25%) are English or only slightly different to English, written phonetically in the Roman version of the Serbo-Croatian alphabet. Which is highly amusing. This alphabet has no new vowels (unlike French for example) but it has new consonants, and is missing some English consonants. The differences are mostly as follows:

• č, š and ž replace ch, sh and the ‘s’ in ‘erasure’.
• Đ = đ = dž replaces j, and j replaces y.
• c is pronounced ts, and the r is rolled.
• vowels are all short, a, e, i, o, u.
• letters q, w, x, y are missing.

It’s highly amusing to see English-like words written out phonetically (fonetski) this way. My favourite is antihrist, missing the ‘c’.

On a more serious level, this would be a great way to help former Yugoslavians to become literate in their own language.

advocat, advocate
ideja, idea
gitara, guitar
ideal, ideal
klasa, class
klin, incline
atol, atoll
kakao, cocoa
alkohol, alcohol
amnezija, amnesia
baklava, baklava
egoizam, egoism
kokos, coconut
okarina, ocarina
alibi, alibi
biolog, biology
avion, avian
baron, baron
emajl, email
klovn, clown
okean, ocean
dama, dame
adjektiv, adjective
detektiv, detective
ambulanta, ambulance
antihrist, antichrist
arhipelag, archipelago
juni, june
amblem, emblem
grizli, grizzly
hijina, hyena
akademak, academic
baptista, Baptist
foto, photo
etc.

Sports words

aksl, axel
aperkat, uppercut
bekhend, backhand
cirk, circus
disk, disk
faul, foul
forhend, forehand
gard, guard
karate, karate
matador, matador
nokaut, knockout
reli, rally
revanš, revenge
skor, score
stoj, stop
trening, training

Places

Akropolj, Acropolis
Alpi, Alps
Antarktik, Antarctic
Australija, Australia
Indokina, Indochina
Jerusalim, Jerusalem
London, London
Nagasaki, Nagasaki
Seul, Seoul
Singapur, Singapore
Vašington, Washington
Venecija, Venice

Names

Osama, Osama
Lora, Laura
Aleksandre, Alexander
Kipling, Kipling
Kvazimodo, Quasimodo
Miler, Miller
Onil, O’Neal
Pasternak, Pasternak
Sartr, Sartre
Amunsen, Amundsen
Bendžamin, Benjamin
Singlton, Singleton
Navratilova, Navratilova
Lejver, Laver
Vudbridž, Woodbridge
Švarceneger, Schwarzenegger

OK, once you accept that Todd Woodbridge’s name is spelled phonetically as “Vudbridž”, you’re just about in for pronouncing Serbo-Croatian.

The Serbo-Croatian dictionary I found ‘Hippocrene practical dictionary’ tends to confirm that. A large fraction of Serbo-Croatian words are pronounced fonetski (phonetically) and are similar to English words. Remembering that English ‘w’ becomes ‘v’, that the Serbo-Croatian ‘c’ is pronounced ‘ts’, and that the ‘r’ is rolled is really all that is required.

Or so I thought. Until I found the word list https://www.101languages.net/croatian/most-common-croatian-words/ and downloaded the complete list https://s3.amazonaws.com/101languages/common-words/croatian.xlsx. It’s not unusual for a single English root word to end up with a dozen different spellings in Croatian, many or even most of which are not phonetic according to the scheme above. The genders of words seen in Latin and French but mercifully absent from English are back in Croatian. Endings ‘-e’, ‘-a’, ‘-u’ are swappable for most of the word list, ‘-e’ is nominally male, ‘-a’ is nominally female, ‘-u’ is nominally neuter and ‘-i’ is nominally plural but there are plenty of exceptions in every case.

Croatian writing even occasionally mixes alphabets in the same word. Russian cyrillic letters are sometimes mixed with the standard letters, ditto the forbidden English letters q, w, x, y. So it’s back to the drawing board.

Can we even know any language? Given for instance that the dictionary is grossly incomplete: missing plurals, common names, places, acronyms, most compound words and borrowed words.

mollwollfumble said:

You can speak Serbo-Croatian. Or not.

When reading a foreign language, the easiest words to read are those that are very similar to a language I already know. Obviously.
But those are seldom if ever the words first taught when being taught a language.

I have occasionally wondered:
Is it possible to conduct an intelligent conversation in two different languages simultaneously using only words which are very similar between the two languages?

I bought a puzzle book (largely word-search) in a foreign language two weeks ago. I’m half way through and I still don’t know what language it is in, because Google translate recognises all the words in it as Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian, possibly also Macedonian. So I’m going to call it Serbo-Croatian. I borrowed a Serbo-Croatian dictionary and most (but not all) of the words are in it.

What I found startling is that a high proportion of the words in the puzzle book (perhaps as high as 25%) are English or only slightly different to English, written phonetically in the Roman version of the Serbo-Croatian alphabet. Which is highly amusing. This alphabet has no new vowels (unlike French for example) but it has new consonants, and is missing some English consonants. The differences are mostly as follows:

• č, š and ž replace ch, sh and the ‘s’ in ‘erasure’.
• Đ = đ = dž replaces j, and j replaces y.
• c is pronounced ts, and the r is rolled.
• vowels are all short, a, e, i, o, u.
• letters q, w, x, y are missing.

It’s highly amusing to see English-like words written out phonetically (fonetski) this way. My favourite is antihrist, missing the ‘c’.

On a more serious level, this would be a great way to help former Yugoslavians to become literate in their own language.

advocat, advocate
ideja, idea
gitara, guitar
ideal, ideal
klasa, class
klin, incline
atol, atoll
kakao, cocoa
alkohol, alcohol
amnezija, amnesia
baklava, baklava
egoizam, egoism
kokos, coconut
okarina, ocarina
alibi, alibi
biolog, biology
avion, avian
baron, baron
emajl, email
klovn, clown
okean, ocean
dama, dame
adjektiv, adjective
detektiv, detective
ambulanta, ambulance
antihrist, antichrist
arhipelag, archipelago
juni, june
amblem, emblem
grizli, grizzly
hijina, hyena
akademak, academic
baptista, Baptist
foto, photo
etc.

Sports words

aksl, axel
aperkat, uppercut
bekhend, backhand
cirk, circus
disk, disk
faul, foul
forhend, forehand
gard, guard
karate, karate
matador, matador
nokaut, knockout
reli, rally
revanš, revenge
skor, score
stoj, stop
trening, training

Places

Akropolj, Acropolis
Alpi, Alps
Antarktik, Antarctic
Australija, Australia
Indokina, Indochina
Jerusalim, Jerusalem
London, London
Nagasaki, Nagasaki
Seul, Seoul
Singapur, Singapore
Vašington, Washington
Venecija, Venice

Names

Osama, Osama
Lora, Laura
Aleksandre, Alexander
Kipling, Kipling
Kvazimodo, Quasimodo
Miler, Miller
Onil, O’Neal
Pasternak, Pasternak
Sartr, Sartre
Amunsen, Amundsen
Bendžamin, Benjamin
Singlton, Singleton
Navratilova, Navratilova
Lejver, Laver
Vudbridž, Woodbridge
Švarceneger, Schwarzenegger

OK, once you accept that Todd Woodbridge’s name is spelled phonetically as “Vudbridž”, you’re just about in for pronouncing Serbo-Croatian.

The Serbo-Croatian dictionary I found ‘Hippocrene practical dictionary’ tends to confirm that. A large fraction of Serbo-Croatian words are pronounced fonetski (phonetically) and are similar to English words. Remembering that English ‘w’ becomes ‘v’, that the Serbo-Croatian ‘c’ is pronounced ‘ts’, and that the ‘r’ is rolled is really all that is required.

Or so I thought. Until I found the word list https://www.101languages.net/croatian/most-common-croatian-words/ and downloaded the complete list https://s3.amazonaws.com/101languages/common-words/croatian.xlsx. It’s not unusual for a single English root word to end up with a dozen different spellings in Croatian, many or even most of which are not phonetic according to the scheme above. The genders of words seen in Latin and French but mercifully absent from English are back in Croatian. Endings ‘-e’, ‘-a’, ‘-u’ are swappable for most of the word list, ‘-e’ is nominally male, ‘-a’ is nominally female, ‘-u’ is nominally neuter and ‘-i’ is nominally plural but there are plenty of exceptions in every case.

Croatian writing even occasionally mixes alphabets in the same word. Russian cyrillic letters are sometimes mixed with the standard letters, ditto the forbidden English letters q, w, x, y. So it’s back to the drawing board.

Can we even know any language? Given for instance that the dictionary is grossly incomplete: missing plurals, common names, places, acronyms, most compound words and borrowed words.

A serb/croat mate was chatting to a young lass in a nightclub and made a comment about her strange dialect, whereapon she revealed she was Russian.
So you can at least have a passable conversation between two languages with similar roots.

So, Serbo-Croat is the same as Borat?

Dark Orange said:

mollwollfumble said:

You can speak Serbo-Croatian. Or not.

When reading a foreign language, the easiest words to read are those that are very similar to a language I already know. Obviously.
But those are seldom if ever the words first taught when being taught a language.

I have occasionally wondered:
Is it possible to conduct an intelligent conversation in two different languages simultaneously using only words which are very similar between the two languages?

I bought a puzzle book (largely word-search) in a foreign language two weeks ago. I’m half way through and I still don’t know what language it is in, because Google translate recognises all the words in it as Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian, possibly also Macedonian. So I’m going to call it Serbo-Croatian. I borrowed a Serbo-Croatian dictionary and most (but not all) of the words are in it.

What I found startling is that a high proportion of the words in the puzzle book (perhaps as high as 25%) are English or only slightly different to English, written phonetically in the Roman version of the Serbo-Croatian alphabet. Which is highly amusing. This alphabet has no new vowels (unlike French for example) but it has new consonants, and is missing some English consonants. The differences are mostly as follows:

• č, š and ž replace ch, sh and the ‘s’ in ‘erasure’.
• Đ = đ = dž replaces j, and j replaces y.
• c is pronounced ts, and the r is rolled.
• vowels are all short, a, e, i, o, u.
• letters q, w, x, y are missing.

It’s highly amusing to see English-like words written out phonetically (fonetski) this way. My favourite is antihrist, missing the ‘c’.

On a more serious level, this would be a great way to help former Yugoslavians to become literate in their own language.

advocat, advocate
ideja, idea
gitara, guitar
…
Lejver, Laver
Vudbridž, Woodbridge
Švarceneger, Schwarzenegger

OK, once you accept that Todd Woodbridge’s name is spelled phonetically as “Vudbridž”, you’re just about in for pronouncing Serbo-Croatian.

The Serbo-Croatian dictionary I found ‘Hippocrene practical dictionary’ tends to confirm that. A large fraction of Serbo-Croatian words are pronounced fonetski (phonetically) and are similar to English words. Remembering that English ‘w’ becomes ‘v’, that the Serbo-Croatian ‘c’ is pronounced ‘ts’, and that the ‘r’ is rolled is really all that is required.

Or so I thought. Until I found the word list https://www.101languages.net/croatian/most-common-croatian-words/ and downloaded the complete list https://s3.amazonaws.com/101languages/common-words/croatian.xlsx. It’s not unusual for a single English root word to end up with a dozen different spellings in Croatian, many or even most of which are not phonetic according to the scheme above. The genders of words seen in Latin and French but mercifully absent from English are back in Croatian. Endings ‘-e’, ‘-a’, ‘-u’ are swappable for most of the word list, ‘-e’ is nominally male, ‘-a’ is nominally female, ‘-u’ is nominally neuter and ‘-i’ is nominally plural but there are plenty of exceptions in every case.

Croatian writing even occasionally mixes alphabets in the same word. Russian cyrillic letters are sometimes mixed with the standard letters, ditto the forbidden English letters q, w, x, y. So it’s back to the drawing board.

Can we even know any language? Given for instance that the dictionary is grossly incomplete: missing plurals, common names, places, acronyms, most compound words and borrowed words.

A serb/croat mate was chatting to a young lass in a nightclub and made a comment about her strange dialect, whereapon she revealed she was Russian.
So you can at least have a passable conversation between two languages with similar roots.

:-) That fits. Particularly with Serbian. There is only Romania between that and the Ukaine, and lots of Russian words, particularly ‘Grad’ for City and the ending ‘-ski’ for person extend into Serbo-Croatian.

“Serbo-Croatian orthography is almost entirely phonetic. Thus, most words should be spelled as they are pronounced.” It has now struck me that it’s very unusual for a written language to be phonetic. English, French, German, Mandarin etc. definitely aren’t.

Korean is. But that’s because it was sepecifically invented in the 15th century for the purpose of overcoming illiteracy. It was immediatly successful.

Google Translate doesn’t have Serbo-Croatian as a language option. It has separate languages for Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian and Macedonian. Further, Croatian is written in Roman letters and Serbian in Russian Cyrillic letters.

Wikipedia says that:

“The process of linguistic standardization of Serbo-Croatian was originally initiated in the mid-19th-century Vienna Literary Agreement by Croatian and Serbian writers and philologists, decades before a Yugoslav state was established. … In the 20th century, Serbo-Croatian served as the official language of Yugoslavia … the orthography is highly phonemic in all standards. … In 2017, the “Declaration on the Common Language” (Deklaracija o zajedničkom jeziku) was signed by a group of NGOs and linguists from former Yugoslavia. It states that all variants belong to a common polycentric language. … Serbo-Croatian is officially designated a minority language in Austria and Italy.”

“Latin script has become more and more popular in Serbia, as it is easy to input on phones and computers. The Serbian Cyrillic alphabet was revised by Vuk Stefanović Karadžić in the 19th century.”

I’m actually infering that Serbo-Croatian is so heavily phonetic because the written form is so recent as the result of linguistic standardisation. The revision of Serbian Cyrillic to make it phonetic occurred in the 19th century. “In both cases, Lation and Cyrillic, spelling is phonetic and spellings in the two alphabets map to each other one-to-one:”

“In 1954, major Serbian and Croatian writers, linguists and literary critics signed the Novi Sad Agreement, which in its first conclusion stated: “Serbs, Croats and Montenegrins share a single language with two equal variants that have developed around Zagreb (western) and Belgrade (eastern)”. The agreement insisted on the equal status of Cyrillic and Latin scripts, and of Ekavian and Ijekavian pronunciations. It also specified that Serbo-Croatian should be the name of the language in official contexts, while in unofficial use the traditional Serbian and Croatian were to be retained. Matica hrvatska and Matica srpska were to work together on a dictionary. During the sixties both books were published simultaneously in Ijekavian Latin and Ekavian Cyrillic.”

I listened to all three of the Montenegran, Serbian and Croatian news broadcasts on SBS this morning. The Croatian was distinctly different to the other two, and much easier for me to understand, I could pick up perhaps one word in ten. For Montenegran and Serbian I could only pick up about one word in a hundred, particulary the word pronounced “politsia”.

So our current Serbo-Coatian dictionaries only date back to about 1954.